Your opinions about Ymir Fritz (ep 80)

Sheklon said:
I just never understood her sacrifice for King Fritz and

Connortit said:
Ms "Stockholm syndrome" honestly I think she is the worst character in attack on titan i just see her as a walking plot convenience so that everything can happen the way it does.

Akilis93 said:


Google up 'stockholm syndrome'. It is a thing all over the world, not just some fiction. Sure, it sounds messed up and I can't understand how can any victim develop such emotions, but I know it actually happens, so it makes perfectly sense in relation to Ymir. Also, we can add up a toxic one-side love to this equation and there we have it - our tragic Ymir.

Sheklon said:
I just never understood her sacrifice for King Fritz and

Sheklon said:
I just never understood her sacrifice for King Fritz and

Sheklon said:

I'm aware of Stockholm Syndrome, but there is no real proper setup and development for it in the story. Fritz never particularly cared for her or showed her real affection, the best he did was compliment her war efforts (and "give her his seed", which I doubt was a pleasant experience). However, she was still left aside as a slave most of the time.

I'm not saying it is entirely illogical, but it was badly managed. As much as I like Ymir's backstory, she as a character is just a plot device.

Nudertaker said:
I recommend anime onlies stop watching after this ep and make up their own headcanon ending because it'll be better than what you will actually get. Just a friendly warning.

Sheklon said:

Well, the syndrome is not universally accepted as a real condition in first place... but explain me how you think it works. The original Stockholm case was a bit of a "good cop, bad cop" situation, where small acts of kindness and weakness shown by the abusers were amplified by the abused, who where blinded by the pressure of the scenario. While the syndrome might be disregarded as a real medical condition by some, this phenomenon in particular is easily observable in real life, inside hierarchical relationships where your superior showing you a little more sympathy than usual is often hyperfocused, since the otherwise exploitative behavior is assumed to be the norm. Basically, "wow, they don't have to be nice to me, but they're still trying!", as if it was a big deal.

Perceiving weakness and victimization in the abuser (which might or might not truly exist) is also a way to sympathize with them. You think they were mistreated by society and that was what lead them to be aggressive, so you feel like you own kindness and open mindedness to them. Or you believe they are doing what they are doing for a greater cause.

None of that is really convincing in AOT's setup. Fritz doesn't talk about ideals that resonate with Ymir, doesn't show her relevant affection and kindness, doesn't even worry about her being stabbed. Being attracted by actual and clear abuse is not exactly normal.

Akilis93 said:

You tangling it way more that it should be. You read something about the original syndrome, while there should not be something called the original in that case. Im pretty sure it was happening over the years, hundreds years ago. But ok, lets call it original because it was the first noted behavior that we can relate to.

Akilis93 said:
How can you say it is 'not universally accepted as a real condition', since it was even given a specific name to describe such behavior? Of course it is worldwide recognised, there is no denying that. I got your examples, but they are not the only ones that works.

Akilis93 said:
The whole range of emotions is so wide and complex, that you cant sort them like you sort forks and knives in a drawer. We can say that Fritz as a king is often object of yearning from others. But I guess it won't convince a lot of ppl in this situation. So let's go with the real reason Ymir felt something towards King. The fact that after she became titan, he 'forgiven' her a crime and let her live on. Of course, we sitting here in warmth find that stupid. But we must put ourselves in her place. King sentenced her to death, then he decided to forgive her. It was this act that started Ymir's Stockholm Syndrome. Later on, he 'rewarded' her. Of course she could misread that too, thinking that maybe king started to love her, since he decided to sleep with her. And there you have it. It doesn't have to be a real affection that the abuser shows to the abused. The abused just must think that abuser is acting 'nice'. And that was it.

Akilis93 said:
Whether one can understand and find those circumstances enough is irrelevant tbh. We don't have to understand the thing to make it real. The thing is there. I don't understand how anyone can forgive when other person cheats, but they actually are. And finally, your last sentence ' Being attracted by actual and clear abuse is not exactly normal' - That is the whole point of Stochkolm, my friend. It is not normal. But it is happening, unfortunately.

Sheklon said:
I'll have to chop this in parts to better address your post.


I said the original case, not the origin of the behavior.


Stockholm Syndrome is not an official mental health diagnosis, it's not in the DSM-V. This is what I meant. There isn't enough scientific support for it, and even if parts of the behavior observed are real, it isn't precisely defined what is syndrome and what isn't.

It's why I had to ask what was your understanding of it and offered mine, based on the case that originated the term.


I get it, emotions are complex. But they also have causation and often follow certain patterns. I don't think Isayama did a great job in portraying that part with Ymir.

Her immediate relationship with the king was of pillage, slavery, terror. Even after being spared, she was used to inflict the same horrors to others, and continually had her well being neglected as we see clearly when she takes that arrow for him. Even a child that age (whatever age she had, still not a baby) can understand mistreatment and injustice in many cases, so you will forgive me, but I don't consider her development very convincing. We don't even have access to her mind, what she cared for, what she thought of the few good things she did as titan, and how that related to her parallel feeling of guilt.

This could be fixed by a proper pacing and presentation of the backstory, yet that would take time and derail the real action, since Isayama decided to put this in between key plot moments... so yeah, not much room for Ymir to get fleshed out and be convincing as a person.


Except this is a fictional work here... the author has full control over what happens or not. He bears a responsibility to make it believable and understandable to the readers/consumers.

Of course, no one will please everyone. Maybe you were fine with the 30 minutes explanation of one of the most important backstory points as it was presented, but I felt it was lacking. Still like it, it's still a good concept in paper, but it didn't have a perfect execution by any means.

Akilis93 said:
Sure, it could have been shown better. We could get a full season of Ymir's life. It is true, that the more time a character has, the better development it gets (well, mostly true, but it is a regularity). But it doesn't mean that you can't show a proper backstory within 30minutes. And yes, I belive what we were given by Isayama is enough to understand Ymir character. I can read between the lines, I don't have to be given a direct message to understand a thing.
'We don't even have access to her mind, what she cared for, what she thought of the few good things she did as titan, and how that related to her parallel feeling of guilt.' - we don't need those informations to understand why she acted like she did. Those would help us understand what kind of a person Ymir was, but it's irrelevant to the story. We don't have to know everything about every character to understand why they do what they do. Isayama showed us the origin of titans, why Eldians are called devils and what led to the Curse of Ymir. IMO, it lacks nothing.

samashi20 said:
Why did she wait for 2000 years? Did she wait willingly? Was she OK with all the blood that's been spilled and wars that were started? Did she actually wait for Eren? Did she lead him there?

I think this part of the story was rushed a bit, like I wished her backstory was more detailed. I wish they explained why she got into the paths/reached the coordinate and was stuck there.

xenosys said:
Unlike some manga readers, perhaps anime-only's aren't tied to their theories like religious zealots are with their one book. They might just have a fresher, less-tainted perspective that hasn't been over-analysed to death in their echo chambers and in their heads to try and make it make sense.

Varris said:
I just saw it and didn't read the manga and I thought she was amazing. She's hyped up as a goddess and the founder but in reality she's probably the most unfortunate girl to ever live. She's a slave in every sense of the word and is the polar opposite of Eren making the contrast between them amazing. Her backstory also makes it clear that the power of the titans is truly terrible whereas before it was mired by Marley and restorationist propaganda.

Sheklon said:

Fair enough, we can always agree to disagree. You're already better at expressing your thoughts without unnecessary bickering than half of MAL, at least.

Akilis93 said:


Same to you. Didn't expect that one of us will convince the other, but we could at least discuss it. Good day to you :)

AllMight1000 said:
Eren’s new time travelling powers. Isayama didn’t have a clear end goal and what he’s made up until season 4 part 1 has been amazing but he couldn’t get over the finish line which is the most important part.

AllMight1000 said:


I didn’t have a head canon man. I went into attack on Titan without reading the manga and had no expectations that the ending should be a certain way. What I did expect is that the ending should make sense and fit in with the rest of the story. Eren confesses his love to Mikasa at the end but never showed any hints of him loving her in the previous seasons. If Isayama said the story is about Eren, Mikasa and Armin then why was Armin treated like a side character for many seasons? Mikasa barely got developed as an independent character. Mikasa is literally just obsessed with Eren that’s all she brings to the table. Isayama tried to cram too many different concepts into one final season so its just a recipe for disaster but he done a phenomenal job creating a world that’s realistic and dark but the ending just made AOT a love story when the previous seasons did not sell itself like a love story. It’s more misdirection from Isayama than my own head canon IMO

Akilis93 said:

Is this what You are thinking about ppl who experience similar live? (except of course being slave for 2000 year). Because it's not really that rare to develop such toxic emotions. You are not very understanding for human emotions. But I guess not everyone have to. Kinda sad though

samashi20 said:
It's sad what she went through, but I have my reservations about her too. Why did she wait for 2000 years? Did she wait willingly? Was she OK with all the blood that's been spilled and wars that were started? Did she actually wait for Eren? Did she lead him there?

I think this part of the story was rushed a bit, like I wished her backstory was more detailed. I wish they explained why she got into the paths/reached the coordinate and was stuck there.

The only simple and straightforward answer that I have is that she accepted herself as a slave and stopped caring about everything and everyone the same way people threw her to the wolves, much less cared about her.