who is more the cause the fans or the anime industry when it comes to sexualization of characters?
the fans is more the cause
47.4%
136
the creators or the anime industry is more the cause
29.6%
85
i do not know
23.0%
66
287 votes
| Blame? People in Japan because they aren't a bunch of soyjaks like westerners crying about non existent sexism of half naked characters to big companies. |
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WutIsDis said: It is like the chicken and egg problem, because it is not exactly as easy as "demand creates supply, so demand is the reason." Consider this: Do you think you find anime characters more sexy now than when you didn't watch anime? If the answer is yes (it most definitely is), then it would imply that watching anime has somehow influenced what you like. And this is the case. Most people who don't watch anime don't find the appeal in things that are exclusively in anime, for example Moe. Are anime fans truly different from birth? No, they have been sort of "groomed" into liking the stuff. That is why you have to invest into the anime culture to understand aspects of it. I got into anime because of ecchi, not into ecchi because of anime. And I highly doubt I'm some extreme statistical outlier in this considering how oft-discussed this topic is relative to anime's image, meaning that it's an element of anime that many people who don't watch it would be aware of and could make a lightly informed decision of whether or not to give it a go with that in mind. That decision making process can very well view the accessibility of sexual content as a positive. Drawing lewd scenarios and pictures for the express extent of tittilation is something that has existed for centuries, and moving that into anime is pretty much just an evolution of that concept, much in the same way that animation is an evolution of communicating something through drawn images. It not only just gives them movement, but it also necessitates stuff like scripting and writing, so on and so forth. Which, the latter is an integral part of the appeal of ecchi over hentai in the first place. Topping that off is that concepts like sexualization and sexualized fanservice aren't anime-exclusive in the slightest and can be found in media globally, so trying to frame it as a "just something you get conditioned to accept or enjoy because you watch anime" seems entirely off the mark. That argument only works if ecchi and fanservice is viewed in a vacuum, like it's some weird, foreign concept and a byproduct of Japan "just being different." That doesn't apply in this case. It's too common in all walks of media, entertainment, and actual culture, and the way it entertains is too fundamental to just day-to-day human shit like sexuality and wanting to fuck. It's less weird than people going into dramatic series and viewing feeling sadness and wanting to cry as a positive part of that experience when viewed from that perspective. We can't just take the arguments people make for why they're not weirded out by stuff like GochiUsa existing and apply them to ecchi because they're both viewed as weird weeb stuff by outsiders. |
ManabanJan 18, 2022 7:17 AM
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| The creators since they know sex sells. I doubt anime could be anywhere near as mainstream as what it is now without using hot pure waifus that look far superior to irl supermodels. I like the waifu pandering tbh. |
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| The fans, in extension Japanese society as a whole. All the fucked up stuff you see in anime and hentai is just a reflection of the society that produces them and allows stuff like that to exist. |
| Obviously the creators since they clearly do it only for the shits and giggles... |
| I guess it is the blame for both, as anime industry mainly make anime for japanesee audience and from what I've already seen/heard the japanese audience/fans actually enjoy the amount of fanservises, otherwise some titles wouldn't even try to do that x) |
| Why blame lol? Ultimately regardless of all the whiners about why does anime make x or do x the reason always originates with the fans. If there is a market they will make a title if there isn't enough fans they won't. For better or worse the industry is very responsive to fan popularity. WutIsDis said: It is like the chicken and egg problem, because it is not exactly as easy as "demand creates supply, so demand is the reason." Consider this: Do you think you find anime characters more sexy now than when you didn't watch anime? If the answer is yes (it most definitely is), then it would imply that watching anime has somehow influenced what you like. And this is the case. Most people who don't watch anime don't find the appeal in things that are exclusively in anime, for example Moe. Are anime fans truly different from birth? No, they have been sort of "groomed" into liking the stuff. That is why you have to invest into the anime culture to understand aspects of it. So in a way, the fans create the demand for this stuff, which makes the anime industry pump out more anime that cater to them, but their excessive liking of this stuff was ignited by the anime they watched, which was created by the industry. So yeah, it is complicated. I would say that the anime industry probably has more control if they do it in a subtle way, but I am not sure. Personally and like others like @Manaban have said I always had a draw to animation and once I actually hit puberty I was drawn to animated characters pretty quickly. Ultimately it just originated from my love of animation and I was hardly looking at explicit titles (Pokemon) but I eventually drifted towards some explicit content due to a love for how animated or drawn characters looked. Maybe for some it was the culture or whatever but I am going to be honest I think most people are drawn to certain stuff from the get go than somehow indoctrinated because of the culture. People from the beginning of time have liked exaggerated images that can be reflected in drawings. I think the idea most are groomed into it is kinda BS. How did this industry even start? Who groomed who first? |
deg said: Manaban said: Why you gotta frame it like someone has to be blamed for something bad here deg :( literally over here comparing us to drug addicts and shit do you want war with me or something :( anime is going mainstream now so lots of this problem are popping up i was thinking of a regional or country specific censorship can satisfy everyone, like what happened with Interspecicies Reviewers and Dragon Maid, although the internet exist you will still reduce easy access to the uncensored versions anime can also be too addictive Anything can be too addictive. People who get themselves deep into addictions usually have behavioural flaws unrelated to the source especially in cases like anime where it's not an actual addictive vice good. Plus people keep saying "anime is going mainstream" when to me mainstream is Marvel, DC, Star Wars and in that case no anime is not going mainstream. It's just a now widely accepted nerdy hobby but compared to all that it's small time. Also the cases you stated Reviewers was literally because they decided to take a tame ecchi manga and just turn into a legit hentai (the only reason it isn't is because there are no censored genitals shown). Honestly as much as I like it I also understand why Funi dropped it. Dragon Maid outside of censorship in authoritarian China (to be expected at this point) and the dumb changes to the dub what other censorship are you talking of? |
BilboBaggins365Jan 18, 2022 10:21 AM
| Both obviously. It's a never ending cycle. Either way I don't see a problem with it. I mean...who is it actually harming? I suppose someone's going to try and convince me that people with body pillows should be arrested because a body pillow isn't able to give consent. |
deg said: BilboBaggins365 said: Why blame lol? Ultimately regardless of all the whiners about why does anime make x or do x the reason always originates with the fans. If there is a market they will make a title if there isn't enough fans they won't. For better or worse the industry is very responsive to fan popularity. Personally and like others like @Manaban have said I always had a draw to animation and once I actually hit puberty I was drawn to animated characters pretty quickly. Ultimately it just originated from my love of animation and I was hardly looking at explicit titles (Pokemon) but I eventually drifted towards some explicit content due to a love for how animated or drawn characters looked. Maybe for some it was the culture or whatever but I am going to be honest I think most people are drawn to certain stuff from the get go than somehow indoctrinated because of the culture. People from the beginning of time have liked exaggerated images that can be reflected in drawings. I think the idea most are groomed into it is kinda BS. How did this industry even start? Who groomed who first? again we are not in a pure free market situation though so government exists consumers being rational is fake news by economics since psychology proven to err is human or we are irrational by default just because of hundreds of cognitive biases and mental shortcuts we do alone for me im trying to ask is fiction and reality always separate? especially if the audience or consumers are minors like the anime fandom? im drawn to animation too but sexual content from animation started more from anime due to me being expose to Sailor Moon show back in the old days sure USA cartoons can be sexualize too but weighing the amount then anime has more of it even on kids shows Prove to me that fiction does have massive force on individual action in this case then? I don't believe fiction has as much effect as people believe. In large fiction is a response to ongoings in society such as desires, fears, concerns. Fiction just reflects society it doesn't change it. You can see that in some art movements in Europe. NeoClassicism was just a reflection of people frustrated with the current order and looking back to an idealized past in Rome. Propaganda even has been ineffective unless you have constant societal reinforcement and success from the state. Plus the leaders most successful at it still need to reflect the already existent desires within society. Sexual content in shows in large just reflects the desires or fantasies that people have had through time. Again people can find whatever reasoning they want but I don't buy it. I have experience with that reasoning when I was trying to explain why I was a bi guy thinking it was content that was influencing me when just from the beginning that is what I felt. Fair if that is how you felt but I know it wasn't because of exposure. Edit: To me it always is the consumer and honestly the only thing that restricts the desire is not knowing that something you may like exists, shame etc a variety of factors but I do believe there is always some innate desire for everything that just needs to be tapped within people. |
BilboBaggins365Jan 18, 2022 10:30 AM
| I blame never the corporation which has simply identified what the consumer wants. I also do not mind sexualized characters at all. |
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deg said: BilboBaggins365 said: Prove to me that fiction does have massive force on individual action in this case then? I don't believe fiction has as much effect as people believe. In large fiction is a response to ongoings in society are desires, fears, concerns. Fiction just reflects society. You can see that in some art movements in Europe. NeoClassicism was just a reflection of people frustrated with the current order and looking back to an idealized past in Rome. Propaganda even has been ineffective unless you have constant societal reinforcement and success from the state. Plus the leaders most successful at it still need to reflect the already existent desires within society. Sexual content in shows in large just reflects the desires or fantasies that people have had through time. Again people can find whatever reasoning they want but I don't buy it. I have experience with that reasoning when I was trying to explain why I was a bi guy thinking it was content that was influencing me when just from the beginning that is what I felt. Fair if that is how you felt but I know it wasn't because of exposure. ok let me rephrase the question should you let your kids watch ecchi and hentai? hypothetical question like this thread obviously I mean kids no I don't know why they would be interested in that stuff at all. For teens though sure in small doses it's harmless. I turned out fine not some weird sex addict. You need to have of course an educated discussion on sex education with them. Lots of myths and problems can result if people get ideas from porn, sexual content and minors need to be protected but they hardly need to be kept in box from it until they turn 18. It was a way for me to safely learn about myself. I wouldn't have a problem with a 16 year old reading something like Chainsaw Man you already read much more fucked up fiction in HS anyway. I feel the same about Bisque Doll. |
| @deg can minors tell the difference between fiction and reality? Depends on the kid on how they were raised. I was raised by a woman who thought Yu-Gi-Oh cards were satanic, and quickly figured out how dumb that sounded and then doubled down by watching adult swim shows. So yeah, minors are capable of figuring this stuff out, but ultimately its the parents job to tell them the difference. I shouldn't have had to figure it out myself |
deg said: FanofAction said: @deg can minors tell the difference between fiction and reality? Depends on the kid on how they were raised. I was raised by a woman who thought Yu-Gi-Oh cards were satanic, and quickly figured out how dumb that sounded and then doubled down by watching adult swim shows. So yeah, minors are capable of figuring this stuff out, but ultimately its the parents job to tell them the difference. I shouldn't have had to figure it out myself i will ask you the same, will you let your kids watch hentai and/or ecchi anime? Whether I would let them is irrelevant. The fact is they're likely do it regardless. You cant watch them all day everday. I watched plenty of stuff my mom didnt want me to and was ultimately never stopped in the end. Which ended giving me a better understanding of the difference between fiction and reality. Now, I get that just letting your kids watch whatever isn't always the best thing to do, which is why you should always clearly explain to them what's real and what's fake. |
deg said: FanofAction said: @deg can minors tell the difference between fiction and reality? Depends on the kid on how they were raised. I was raised by a woman who thought Yu-Gi-Oh cards were satanic, and quickly figured out how dumb that sounded and then doubled down by watching adult swim shows. So yeah, minors are capable of figuring this stuff out, but ultimately its the parents job to tell them the difference. I shouldn't have had to figure it out myself i will ask you the same, will you let your kids watch hentai and/or ecchi anime? Whether I would let them is irrelevant. The fact is they'll likely do it regardless, which is why you should always clearly explain to them what's real and what's fake. |
FanofActionJan 18, 2022 11:29 AM
BilboBaggins365 said: deg said: anime is going mainstream now so lots of this problem are popping up i was thinking of a regional or country specific censorship can satisfy everyone, like what happened with Interspecicies Reviewers and Dragon Maid, although the internet exist you will still reduce easy access to the uncensored versions anime can also be too addictive Anything can be too addictive. People who get themselves deep into addictions usually have behavioural flaws unrelated to the source especially in cases like anime where it's not an actual addictive vice good. Plus people keep saying "anime is going mainstream" when to me mainstream is Marvel, DC, Star Wars and in that case no anime is not going mainstream. It's just a now widely accepted nerdy hobby but compared to all that it's small time. Also the cases you stated Reviewers was literally because they decided to take a tame ecchi manga and just turn into a legit hentai (the only reason it isn't is because there are no censored genitals shown). Honestly as much as I like it I also understand why Funi dropped it. Dragon Maid outside of censorship in authoritarian China (to be expected at this point) and the dumb changes to the dub what other censorship are you talking of? lol????? years ago you never saw one guy with an anime shirt but you see them all the time. you see more companies putting anime on their platform and ain game. COD vanguard put attack on titan and fagnite put naruto and shit on theirs. and star wars etc gets shit on allllllll the time. |
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Kayle_x_Morgana said: BilboBaggins365 said: Anything can be too addictive. People who get themselves deep into addictions usually have behavioural flaws unrelated to the source especially in cases like anime where it's not an actual addictive vice good. Plus people keep saying "anime is going mainstream" when to me mainstream is Marvel, DC, Star Wars and in that case no anime is not going mainstream. It's just a now widely accepted nerdy hobby but compared to all that it's small time. Also the cases you stated Reviewers was literally because they decided to take a tame ecchi manga and just turn into a legit hentai (the only reason it isn't is because there are no censored genitals shown). Honestly as much as I like it I also understand why Funi dropped it. Dragon Maid outside of censorship in authoritarian China (to be expected at this point) and the dumb changes to the dub what other censorship are you talking of? lol????? years ago you never saw one guy with an anime shirt but you see them all the time. you see more companies putting anime on their platform and ain game. COD vanguard put attack on titan and fagnite put naruto and shit on theirs. and star wars etc gets shit on allllllll the time. If you want to argue anime is as popular as SW go ahead. You see some companies putting references to the most mainstream titles imaginable that doesn't mean the medium as a whole is mainstream. Yeah stuff like DBZ was outscoring American Football games back in the early 2000s that doesn't mean anime back then as a whole was mainstream either. To me "mainstream" is different than just popular. Mainstream indicates everyone from every walk of life or age has had experience with the medium and that isn't true. You go ask the average 50-60 year old if they have seen anime most are just going to look at you funny or think it's just weird Japanese cartoons but they likely have seen a Marvel, Superhero or SW movie of some sort. If it gets to a point where I can talk to most random people I meet about anime instead of a few people then I will agree anime is mainstream. |
| Why would I want to blame anybody for "sexualization of characters"? If I don't like something, I'll not watch it. I won't tell other adults what to like, or create guilt for them based on my own morals. => Option "nobody" is missing from the poll |
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| Please not the "protect the children" argument. There are clear MPAA ratings G, PG-13, R, Rx and R+. It's not my concern when parents fail and children get access to material beyond their age group. Children exist, but adults are the majority and we have the right to have media offers for our age group too. |
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deg said: No. Not even in PG-13. The MPAA ratings have strict criteria. And I'm tired of children bitching about material they are not even allowed to legally watch.inim said: Please not the "protect the children" argument. We have clear MPAA ratings G, PG-13, R, Rx and R+. It's not my concern when parents fail and children get access to material beyond their age group. Children exist, bit adults are the majority and we have the right to have media offers for our age group too. true but ecchi scenes or sexualization also happens even in G rated anime right? https://www.marshallcinema.com/mpaa |
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deg said: The only person to control that is yourself. Your head, your decision to drop the show. No need to apply your individual moral and sexual preferences to others, leave alone other adults.inim said: No. Not even in PG-13. The MPAA ratings have strict criteria. And I'm tired of children bitching about material they are not even allowed to legally watch. https://www.marshallcinema.com/mpaa Sailor Moon is PG-13 afailk and Sailor Mars made me horny as an 8 years old |
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deg said: What part of "meh, I don't like this shit, I switch to another channel" requires you to be adult? PG-13 just means there is content suited for AVERAGE kids aged 13 to 16. Your mileage can and will vary.inim said: The only person to control that is yourself. Your head, your decision to drop the show. No need to apply your individual moral and sexual preferences to others, leave alone other adults. well i was a kid that time not an adult though |
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deg said: The sexualization is in your head, not on the TV. Just drop the show if you dislike it, or enjoy it if you don't.inim said: What part of "meh, I don't like this shit, I switch to another channel" requires you to be adult? PG-13 just means there is content suited for AVERAGE kids aged 13 to 16. Your mileage can and will vary. that is the thing i like the sexualization in Sailor Moon but i was a kid that should not be watching it, parents are busy with work and im alone watching local TV economics lied when it said consumers are rational since psychology finds humans are irrational by default due to mental shortcuts and huge number of cognitive biases |
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deg said: Sue your parents for neglect in that case. They failed as parents if you have problems resulting from uncontrolled media consumption.inim said: The sexualization is in your head, not on the TV. Just drop the show if you dislike it, or enjoy it if you don't. im enjoying it as an 8 years old despite the rated PG-13 which is what im saying Where I agree is that access to media of any age group is easier than ever in the current time and age with pirate and porn servers one click away. When I was a kid, you needed to buy or rent your porn in brick and mortar shops, so there was a control. Legal action to bring that back to the internet is underway, but it's slow. Nevertheless, the rights adults have into their porn trumps the failure of parents to protect their children from it. |
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deg said: That's not what I said. The internet hasn't any more or less freedom than all things have. It's subject to the same laws. What is lacking are technical means for parents to comply to their duty and responsibility to make decisions on behalf of their children. Just like you said, your 8 year old self was overwhelmed by the content of a PG-13 show. That's why children are not expected to be able to make such decisions. But parents should and have a hard time doing so, because the law and technology are not offering them a hand.inim said: Sue your parents for neglect in that case. They failed as parents if you have problems resulting from uncontrolled media consumption. Where I agree is that access to media of any age group is easier than ever in the current time and age with pirate and porn servers one click away. When I was a kid, you needed to buy or rent your porn in brick and mortar shops, so there was a control. Legal action to bring that back to the internet is underway, but it's slow. Nevertheless, the rights adults have into their porn trumps the failure of parents to protect their children from it. i agree the internet has too much freedom right now for all ages |
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deg said: inim said: Sue your parents for neglect in that case. They failed as parents if you have problems resulting from uncontrolled media consumption. Where I agree is that access to media of any age group is easier than ever in the current time and age with pirate and porn servers one click away. When I was a kid, you needed to buy or rent your porn in brick and mortar shops, so there was a control. Legal action to bring that back to the internet is underway, but it's slow. Nevertheless, the rights adults have into their porn trumps the failure of parents to protect their children from it. i agree the internet has too much freedom right now for all ages Yeah we should encourage governments to go after the internet now and censor one of the last truly free bastions of knowledge lol. Internet freedom isn't at fault for your weird feelings to SM. It should be a wild west as long as there aren't direct violations of others freedoms. Parents should realize this and instead of advocating restricting the internet they shouldn't allow their kids online willy nilly and keep track of what they are looking at. |
deg said: Parental control is no censorship. Neglect of parental control actually is a punishable action. Don't use words like censorship lightly for cheap effect, please.inim said: That's not what I said. The internet hasn't any more or less freedom than all things have. It's subject to the same laws. What is lacking are technical means for parents to comply to their duty and responsibility to make decisions on behalf of their children. Just like you said, your 8 year old self was overwhelmed by the content of a PG-13 show. That's why children are not expected to be able to make such decisions. But parents should and have a hard time doing so, because the law and technology are not offering hem a hand. the technical means youre saying is parental controls though so its a censorship or lowering freedom on the internet for minors |
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| Idk, this kinda assumes a particular type of fan. I am the type of anime fan that will let anything pass by, and by that, I simply mean that I am down to watch everything. This isn't the case with everyone and seems to me that this thread points to the small minority of actual degenerating humans who choose to have their deviant wishes be of the mainstream media. I wouldn't blame those fans, for the one giving is the industry. But can you also blame the industry for trying to make money? If you really want to destroy this cycle, I'd point fingers at people actually creating this in the first place, regardless of any ulterior motive. I mean, there was once a time when all of this was just easily solvable by the fact that no real issues arose with supposed "sexualisation". People like to have their fuss these days. I am not about to turn around and ignore, however, that some of it are extreme, pretty much dedicated for the hardcore ones out there. But again, seeing a woman, especially like Marin from Sono Bisque Doll, is a bit of a stretch to call "sexualisation", sure, it is anime, but it isn't like there aren't any women like her in reality. Obviously, she has shiny colours and all, maybe a little exaggerated, but damn, saying that is too sexualised is like never going outside and meeting women of today. |
| I will use this as a chance to apply my economics knowledge and teach others @Theanimecow 😂😂. The evolution of consumers’ tastes and preferences has caused a shift of demand to the right in a supply-demand diagram (increase in demand) for fanservice and sexualisation of females. Firms (or in this case studios), use this as a profit incentive and therefore put more of their resources into producing this type of anime - which would be a shift of supply to the right in a supply-demand diagram (increase in supply). Also, the demand for this type of anime is elastic, so if you changed the genre, there would be a huge fall in demand, resulting in a big decrease in revenue. Overall, consumers’ tastes has a knock on affect on the producers and the producers are just trying to make money by any means necessary so the consumers are to blame. However the producers are also at fault as they could be allocating their resources to a potentially more successful cause, like a different genre. A lotta waffle, I know. Would’ve tried to come up with a more detailed explanation but don’t have the time nor willpower. Adiós mis estudiantes! |
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