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wakka9ca said: My point was that I'm not making any point or guesses on what's happening on that island, since it does not matter from an outsider point of view. DeathfireD said: this is umineko, if things dont make sense it is not because they are plot-holes, it is mostly because you havent understood it. There maybe some answers at the end, but I believe most things will really be left unexplained, so it is totally up to yourself to solve it. If you dont ever try to think yourself, chances are you will never understand it~One thing to note though, the bottles from ark 1 and presumably ark 2 show up in Ange's time line at the same time. As to those 2 bottles: it is never explicitly said by the prof (or whoever that guy is again) which story/what events the letters describe. This is only hinted by the screens that they are about the events from arc 1. If then you take that for granted, and make the theory that the letters are from arc 1 and 2, it wouldnt make sense like yourself said, therefore the bottles are not from arc 1 or 2 and the theory is wrong. If you make a 2nd theory that theres always one person who wrote 2 different stories in each arc, he put them in the bottles and threw them into water in hope people would find it. This makes far more sense than the theory above, not only it fits with all details given + possible murder intent, but nothing can deny it atm, therefore it is how it happened. (= blue) |
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Darklight0303 said: francismeunier said: 4saken_762 said: So she is just another deceived person...also thinking that Lambdadelta is deceiving Ange her certainty looks to me full holes with traps. Ange should be able to return with everyone at the time she left only to see all of them a little older since 12 years is some time that passes.Because she believes that in the end everyone will be revived and reach the Golden Land. No she wouldn't be able to do that. that would mean rewriting a event that has already happened. That's something that cannot be done. All of the boards for the past games are like separate worlds. The Ange right now would not even exist if her family returned. If her family returns she does not end up adopted by Eva and so she will be a completely different person. That means the current Ange would not come to be just like Lambda said. Sadly in this case Lambda is the one who is saying the truth. No that's wrong she is simply telling Ange the entire story no matter how unfair or cruel it is. unlike Bern who kept those details from Ange knowing that it would probably make it harder for Ange to accept this task that she received O_O Shit! That is bad then. Unbelivable but logical. So what will Ange do? Keep the game going forever or make it a win/reveal all to Battler then fade away? You know Darklight0303 that is just cruel to a individual as Ange as she is where she is. Even I can't match the confusion of her with knowing this. What do you think Ange will do Darklight0303? Is there any way she can come back and just be different naturally with the time passing and past events that happen? |
 In spoiler my anime list for now. |
francismeunier said: Darklight0303 said: francismeunier said: 4saken_762 said: So she is just another deceived person...also thinking that Lambdadelta is deceiving Ange her certainty looks to me full holes with traps. Ange should be able to return with everyone at the time she left only to see all of them a little older since 12 years is some time that passes.Because she believes that in the end everyone will be revived and reach the Golden Land. No she wouldn't be able to do that. that would mean rewriting a event that has already happened. That's something that cannot be done. All of the boards for the past games are like separate worlds. The Ange right now would not even exist if her family returned. If her family returns she does not end up adopted by Eva and so she will be a completely different person. That means the current Ange would not come to be just like Lambda said. Sadly in this case Lambda is the one who is saying the truth. No that's wrong she is simply telling Ange the entire story no matter how unfair or cruel it is. unlike Bern who kept those details from Ange knowing that it would probably make it harder for Ange to accept this task that she received O_O Shit! That is bad then. Unbelivable but logical. So what will Ange do? Keep the game going forever or make it a win/reveal all to Battler then fade away? You know Darklight0303 that is just cruel to a individual as Ange as she is where she is. Even I can't match the confusion of her with knowing this. What do you think Ange will do Darklight0303? Is there any way she can come back and just be different naturally with the time passing and past events that happen? Hahaha I'm afraid it's not a matter of what I think Ange will do in regards to this revelation, since I read all the novel episodes out so far thus I KNOW what she will do and I rather not spoil :P Still this is a major blow to Ange as it virtually takes away the reason for her to work with Bern since Bern's victory will ultimately lead to ANGE herself dissapearing. Lambda's move was a brilliant one and that offer made to Ange including the bonus only further serves the purpose of shaking her determination to the core |
| Wait. I don't think that ANGE would disappear if she gets Battler to win, she would continue existing; the real problem is that Battler would go back to another Ange in another fragment that has nothing to do with the Ange that ANGE was. It's sort of a time paradox, the one that generates unrelated alternate futures instead of changing yours. The problem would then be not that ANGE wants to exist, but that she wants to be with her family, and if she wins the game, she loses Battler et al. It's a lose-lose situation she got conned into by a witch. |
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| no. the Piece ANGE Beatrice as in the one next to battler would dissapear. The Real Ange the one with Amakusa on the run would not OmegaDenmad said: It's sort of a time paradox, the one that generates unrelated alternate futures instead of changing yours. That's exactly what it is OmegaDenmad said: The problem would then be not that ANGE wants to exist, but that she wants to be with her family, and if she wins the game, she loses Battler et al. It's a lose-lose situation she got conned into by a witch. That pretty much sums it up. In a sense Lambdadelta was a lot more fair than Bernkastel |
Darklight0303Nov 13, 2009 1:45 PM
| But the ANGE next to Battler isn't a piece, she is ANGE-BEATRICE. If she were a piece she wouldn't be in the Meta World. @_@ Of course no one knows exactly what happens to the witches side if the game ends with a win for Battler... theoretically since the point is denying them, maybe they all disappear forever. In that case, ANGE would disappear. But as a witch recognized by Bernkastel and being a Voyager, she shouldn't. |
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| Piece/Meta-Ange might not necessarily disappear (I don't think that ever says that in the VN) ... however, it's possible she might continue on in a pointless witch's existence, much like Bern and Lambda. And you can see what effect that has on them. It is really heartbreaking though. Ange has a difficult decision ahead of her. |
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June_1983 said: Piece/Meta-Ange might not necessarily disappear (I don't think that ever says that in the VN) nope. Lambda does say it. If Beato's board is beaten then ANGE dissapears. Look at the links I posted from youtube. go to 8:54 of part 1 and read the last line |
Darklight0303Nov 13, 2009 1:53 PM
| Isn't it implied since she can travel to different fragments? Or am I missing a kind of witch? Maybe as Beato, she doesn't have time to realize her true powers and gets stuck in a mindset. |
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OmegaDenmad said: Isn't it implied since she can travel to different fragments? Or am I missing a kind of witch? Maybe as Beato, she doesn't have time to realize her true powers and gets stuck in a mindset. Nope it is never said anywhere that Beato had the ability to travel the sea of Kakera like Bern and Lambda |
| Then is there a kind of Witch that can interact with different fragments, without actually traveling to and through them? Because that's exactly what the gameboard is doing, right? And I'm pretty sure there is a point where Beato. |
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OmegaDenmad said: Then is there a kind of Witch that can interact with different fragments, without actually traveling to and through them? Because that's exactly what the gameboard is doing, right? And I'm pretty sure there is a point where Beato. but there is a catch. She cannot leave the island. This may suggest that she might be able to travel between Kakera however there are limitations in duration and range. Another explanation would be that this game is facilitated by Lambdadelta. Since the way she threatens Beato in one of the previous parties suggests she controls a great deal of this game so if anything there is the possibility of the boards beeing supplied by Lambda and Beato only sets up the pieces |
PsychFreak said: Episode 21 preview. This series is going downhill. Where's battler and beatrice? Ange is a boring emo. |
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| Hm. Now I'm even more confused, since I could swear at the start of the game 34 and Bernkastel weren't directly involved. Bernkastel only appears after the game starts in EP1 ???? (saying something like "I came because I heard you were doing something interesting"?) , and 34 appears because Bernkastel got involved, in EP2 ????. What this would imply is that at least for the first two games, it would have been Beato's magic at work, switching to one different fragment. But then, Beato IS supposed to be "sponsored" by Lambdadelta, and she recognized her as a witch before everything in Umineko happened, right? For that matter... Who acknowledged Virgilia? |
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| Lambda was involved from the beginning, she just pretended not to be. She wanted to use the game to ensnare Beato. Animefan1929 said: PsychFreak said: Episode 21 preview. This series is going downhill. Where's battler and beatrice? Ange is a boring emo. Chillax. There is important info we need to get through in order to get the ball rolling. Once we have all of the pieces piled up properly, and the twilights begin, it will be fast and fierce. |
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OmegaDenmad said: Hm. Now I'm even more confused, since I could swear at the start of the game 34 and Bernkastel weren't directly involved. Bernkastel only appears after the game starts in EP1 ???? (saying something like "I came because I heard you were doing something interesting"?) , and 34 appears because Bernkastel got involved, in EP2 ????. What this would imply is that at least for the first two games, it would have been Beato's magic at work, switching to one different fragment. But then, Beato IS supposed to be "sponsored" by Lambdadelta, and she recognized her as a witch before everything in Umineko happened, right? For that matter... Who acknowledged Virgilia? It was only Bernkastel who said she came because she heard Beato started something interesting. Lambda could very well have lied and could have supported Beato from the very beginning. Actually Lambda stated that Beato is a witch only because SHE allows it |
Darklight0303Nov 13, 2009 2:15 PM
June_1983 said: Lambda was involved from the beginning, she just pretended not to be. She wanted to use the game to ensnare Beato. You mean Bern right? :P |
June_1983 said: Lambda was involved from the beginning, she just pretended not to be. She wanted to use the game to ensnare Beato. I suppose you meant "ensnare Bernkastel". Beato seems just like a tool to 34... I guess this could mean anyone can travel through fragments if a witch that can do it wants them too. Hm. And whatever Hanyuu is, too. |
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OmegaDenmad said: Beato seems just like a tool to 34... That is exactly what she is. Poor Beato :( |
Animefan1929 said: PsychFreak said: Episode 21 preview. This series is going downhill. Where's battler and beatrice? Ange is a boring emo. They will probably be in it at the end of the episode. |
vinesage said: wakka9ca said: My point was that I'm not making any point or guesses on what's happening on that island, since it does not matter from an outsider point of view. this is umineko, if things dont make sense it is not because they are plot-holes, it is mostly because you havent understood it. There maybe some answers at the end, but I believe most things will really be left unexplained, so it is totally up to yourself to solve it. If you dont ever try to think yourself, chances are you will never understand it~ Again, I think people didn't understand what I was saying. Let me repeat this: I'm not saying I shut off my brain because things don't make sense. I am saying that from the perspective of an outsider, everything makes sense depending on the progression of the game itself. I am simply pointing the greater picture of the entire series, which is not purely about mystery (or magic). It has very complicated philosophical interpretations.... The realization of the series is to show how perspective and reality can vary depending on the characters themselves. I simply realized how meaningless the debate itself between anti-fantasy and anti-mystery is. I don't care who wins since as soon as one win, the other possibility is completely annihilated. I simply enjoy the process and the struggle between the two perspectives and realities. The bottle could have been anything, from being written by the murderer to being written by Beatrice the Golden Witch. It could have been written by aliens for as far as we know or it could have been the product of timespace distortion and oddities in the multiple dimensions (the game board). Again, the uncertainty of the situation cannot be solved until the game has ended. As outsiders, we, as viewers, cannot modify the outcome. Only Ryukishi07 can. Therefore, our speculations are only good for bragging rights. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Here are some interviews with Ryukishi07 that you might find interesting http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/7366.html http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/7562.html http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/6828.html(spoilers for Higurashi Kai) We are supposed to try to solve it and he did say it is solvable by EP4. It's probably not as hard to figure out as you think |
| I'm on wakka's side, though I don't have as lofty expectations as he seems to have. To me, Umineko is an experiment on the part of the creator. He wants to create an ambiguous "mystery" by playing with and distorting perspective. It's because of that that I don't see the point in guessing the overall direction of the series, but rather taking little things from each episode that stand out as apart of an overall framework. If I end up with any enjoyment in the story, it will be seeing how Ryukishi07 is able to give coherence to the total experience. Saying one thing or another about the overall outcome of the show is secondary, and changes from episode to episode since something totally new and unexpected continues to happen. The overall problem within these discussions is that members who have experienced the VN seem to feel so entitled as to think it is their responsibility to guide and direct anime-only viewers into their train of thought, even though they themselves don't totally know everything about the story because it is unfinished. The show itself is about interpretation of events based on supposition, so to see lots of VNers ruin the experience to some degree because they have a little more information and bias is the most frustrating. |
| In almost every thread there is a back to back conversation of spoilers. There is no place in an episode discussion for that. I say some VNers, because I feel like it's someone different every time, and it only takes one person to go out of their way to condescend on the way people are looking at the show for me to be annoyed because it almost always spirals into the same conversations over and over as opposed to discussing the implications of the single episode on the show forward. How many times have VNers arrogantly challenged valid opinions (based off the episode) with "I can spoil you if you want, but I won't. All I'll say is you're wrong." I've lost count. |
PsychFreak said: The anime leaves out important details that makes this story seem more convoluted and confusing than it is suppose to be. Most of us VN readers just feel obliged to expand on some things the anime left out, because it has done that bad. And it's not only that, the anime has done a terrible job with characterizations, mainly the two main characters. How can you know that the anime leaves out important details? The answer isn't out so we can't know what is important, what is not. That's just what you think is important, but you state your opinion as if it's a fact. And that's what's called "guide and direct anime-only viewers into your train of thought". |
| I think those confussions arise from reading the SN as well, it's just that there is more time to absorb and process the knowledge on your own compared to a weekly 20 minutes episodic anime. I mean, if you read EP1 (edit: EP2 as well), your first question is a reaaaally valid one. |
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noteDhero said: In almost every thread there is a back to back conversation of spoilers. There is no place in an episode discussion for that. I say some VNers, because I feel like it's someone different every time, and it only takes one person to go out of their way to condescend on the way people are looking at the show for me to be annoyed because it almost always spirals into the same conversations over and over as opposed to discussing the implications of the single episode on the show forward. How many times have VNers arrogantly challenged valid opinions (based off the episode) with "I can spoil you if you want, but I won't. All I'll say is you're wrong." I've lost count. Seriously, there are very few spoilers that get posted here. People may hint (which they shouldn't really) or they might explain about things that have been left out of the anime. The fact that there are spoilers here is more down to the fact that there is not a lot of moderation here. If this place was run more like the AnimeSuki thread, you'd be more likely to be spoiler free, because spoilers are not tolerated there by the mods in charge of the board (who are all VN fans and in fact most of them are members of Witch Hunt). You can get banned for screwing up there. It's too bad that can't happen here. However, it hasn't been too bad in here for the last ten or so episodes. At the beginning I noticed it was much worse. However, it seems like some anime-only people view any discussion or explanations at all by VN players to somehow be spoilerish, which is oppressive and annoying. |
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PsychFreak said: DeathfireD said: The problem is the majority of this series has been magic. It would have been logical to try and keep things even by making her anti-magic but noooo they make her out to be a witch. Battler seems like the only sane person in their family She is anti-magic, she is still going to help Battler in solving the murders. It's not like she's gonna switch over to the witch's side just because she's a witch herself. Her main goal is to break her brother out of the endless cycle that Beatrice puts him in. Her goal is to get her family to escape from the never ending October 3rd-5th of Rokkenjima. So just because she's a witch doesn't mean she's all of a sudden anti-mystery. That's not the point. This whole episode revolved around her and how she's been learning about magic. That's what pissed me off. Regardless of whether she helps Battler or not she's still going to have some magical element to her which is crap. |
^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
June_1983 said: However, it hasn't been too bad in here for the last ten or so episodes. At the beginning I noticed it was much worse. However, it seems like some anime-only people view any discussion or explanations at all by VN players to somehow be spoilerish, which is oppressive and annoying. I agree that it is much improved compared to the beginning of the show. That said, I don't think a conversation between people familiar with the VN about their favorite parts of the upcoming episodes is appropriate here. That should go in a separate thread. Period. |
vinesage said: DeathfireD said: One thing to note though, the bottles from ark 1 and presumably ark 2 show up in Ange's time line at the same time. As to those 2 bottles: it is never explicitly said by the prof (or whoever that guy is again) which story/what events the letters describe. This is only hinted by the screens that they are about the events from arc 1. If then you take that for granted, and make the theory that the letters are from arc 1 and 2, it wouldnt make sense like yourself said, therefore the bottles are not from arc 1 or 2 and the theory is wrong. If you make a 2nd theory that theres always one person who wrote 2 different stories in each arc, he put them in the bottles and threw them into water in hope people would find it. This makes far more sense than the theory above, not only it fits with all details given + possible murder intent, but nothing can deny it atm, therefore it is how it happened. (= blue) That's why I said presumably ark 2. I'm covering all my bases ;). The reality of it is we don't know if the same person wrote two notes in the same ark or if the notes where from two different arks. Battler never saw either so there's also the possibility that there was never a note written in the first place. |
| ^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
PsychFreak said: That's not what I'm saying. Take a look at some of the first 2 arcs of the anime for example, many people missed the whole point of the plot because the anime left a few details out which would have made it easier to understand for some people. People were raising questions like, "How can Battler prove a witch doesn't exist when she's right in front of his eyes?", or "What's with this magic crap in my mystery anime?". The problem is the VN doesn't have any answer for those questions. It's just we deduce from the VN to answer those questions. And there's no guarantee that our deduction is right. PsychFreak said: This recent episode had a person confused on why Maria would be in league with Beatrice, and you yourself had to explain it to him. Also, many people were confused over the timelines in this arc. If that isn't important, then what is? That's what I'm saying when I meant the anime leaves out details that makes it harder for anime only people to understand. Do you mean this? Because she believes that in the end everyone will be revived and reach the Golden Land. This's not from the VN, it's in the anime itself. Maria said that in the first arc. About the timeline, the anime is not much different from the game. And it's not that confusing, anyone can get it if pay enough attention. |
| looks like huge discussions here :D wakka9ca said: Thats exactly the point, you are overcomplicating it unnecessarily and stop seeing it as what it is. This is afterall only a game made by someone, no philosophy or quantum physic i can see here. the "schroedinge box" stuff is something that should help people understand the concept, but not exactly how you need to see/explain it.Again, I think people didn't understand what I was saying. Let me repeat this: I'm not saying I shut off my brain because things don't make sense. I am saying that from the perspective of an outsider, everything makes sense depending on the progression of the game itself. I am simply pointing the greater picture of the entire series, which is not purely about mystery (or magic). It has very complicated philosophical interpretations.... As outsiders, we, as viewers, cannot modify the outcome. Only Ryukishi07 can. Therefore, our speculations are only good for bragging rights. umineko is made to be solved with basic logical deduction, so overcomplicating it with stuffs you wont be able to explain properly anyway, is nothing really different than saying "omg these magic stuffs here are sooo totally nonsense".... but then again, if you were one of those who might be able to find philosophy from monsieur poirot or sherlock holmes, I guess i have nothing to say ;-) noteDhero said: I have been following uminekos threads here closely and i must say, i haven't been able to spoil myself anything big till now. I have been always careful not even to look into anything umineko related outside this forum cause i dont really want to risk spoiling myself. And I find the majority of vn readers here talking much more sense than people in any other anime thread. IF i have any complain about the umineko discussion threads, I have to say the anime viewers are the disappointing ones~ In the past 20 discussion threads, there were rarely anyone trying to come up with any decent theory. I can recall only 2 names, monad, who obviously gave up during the 2nd arc, and darkice, with whom i had a little bit theory discussion a while back.In almost every thread there is a back to back conversation of spoilers. There is no place in an episode discussion for that. I say some VNers, because I feel like it's someone different every time, and it only takes one person to go out of their way to condescend on the way people are looking at the show for me to be annoyed because it almost always spirals into the same conversations over and over as opposed to discussing the implications of the single episode on the show forward. How many times have VNers arrogantly challenged valid opinions (based off the episode) with "I can spoil you if you want, but I won't. All I'll say is you're wrong." I've lost count. Anyone who ever responded to my theory in each thread was always a VN reader. but we obviously cant have any halfarse decent discussion, since he knows exactly what it is going to be. PsychFreak said: The anime adaption might not be a masterpiece(I cant judge that anyway) but it certainly isnt terrible. I find myself able to understand everything perfectly well and i never felt the need to look for extra information from the any game or etc.The anime leaves out important details that makes this story seem more convoluted and confusing than it is suppose to be. Most of us VN readers just feel obliged to expand on some things the anime left out, because it has done that bad. And it's not only that, the anime has done a terrible job with characterizations, mainly the two main characters. Battler seems more pissy and stupid than he's supposed to be. And Beato seems like a total bitch 24/7, counting out EP3. This is one of the many reasons people don't like the anime. Other than these points, we mostly keep our mouth shut about things that speculates on the direction of the story because of spoilers obviously. There always will be people complaining no matter how good or bad it is. I think the main problem may be that, thinking hard while watching an anime is just not what people would like to do~ edit: DeathfireD said: oh, there are 2 notes alright. This is what happens outside the island and as a result of what happened on the island. It is described as publicly known therefore no reason to doubt the notes' existence ;-)That's why I said presumably ark 2. I'm covering all my bases ;). The reality of it is we don't know if the same person wrote two notes in the same ark or if the notes where from two different arks. Battler never saw either so there's also the possibility that there was never a note written in the first place. and the possibility the 2 notes are from different arcs is eliminated already, so leaving only one option left~ ps: oh, the notes are not about arc 2, and they are not about anything from arc 1 either :-) |
vinesageNov 13, 2009 8:27 PM
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| I think many of you blow it out of proportion. Battler's more intelligent in the VN and Beatrice is more playful but it's not a day and night difference like some of you make it to out to be. They're still essentially the same characters. Battler is more intelligent but he's still a naive arrogant fool. Beatrice is more playful but she she's still a troll that loves toying with Battler's emotions. An example of Battler being more intelligent. When he meets Ange in the meta world, he wonders if she's his little sister, Ange. He has a hard time believing that, since the Ange he knows is only 6 years old. Ange responds that how she could be his sister, asking if she looks 6 to him. |
LunarEmeraldNov 13, 2009 8:28 PM
PsychFreak said: @4saken_762 It's not only those things though. There are bunch of instances in the story where the anime left things out that hurt characterizations. As I said earlier, I don't think it would hurt to give a few details that weren't expanded upon in the anime. I just think it would help in some cases in understanding some of the characters and their actions. My only real gripe about this whole anime is characterization and I don't think any VN reader can deny how bad DEEN has done with some of the characters. Also About the timeline, the anime is not much different from the game. And it's not that confusing, anyone can get it if pay enough attention. And for the ones who don't pay attention we explain some of those things to them. I don't see any problem with that. I just want to say about things necessary to solve the mystery, not about characterization. I totally agree that the anime is inferior to the VN in that aspect. And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against explaining to those who don't understand. I just think that we should be more cautious when using VN-only details. Because we can't know things were cut just because of the time constraints or they were cut on purpose. Bring them out may cause misleading to the anime-only viewers. |
PsychFreak said: MarthX said: Beatrice is more playful but she she's still a troll that loves toying with Battler's emotions. The thing is, she wasn't playful at all in the first 2 arcs of the anime, she was a troll 24/7. Then people got hit with the 180 in EP3 when she went all moe, it just seemed so unnatural. Luckily for them she reverted back to being a troll at the end. Even though Beatrice was playful in the VN, her sudden change was still unnatural in the VN. It was unnatural because she was faking it. |
| The problem with anime Meta-Battler is that he's in angry mode the entire time. It doesn't look like he's having fun at all. I miss his grin face ;_; In the VN he didn't seem that mad about being trolled. I was so proud of him for actually not crying about it or screaming at Beatrice but in the anime he acted like he hated her for it. |
| Full throttle rage mode. |
PsychFreak said: Exactly, it's no wonder why people raised questions why Battler told Beato in EP3 he thought she was kind of fun, because he never looked like he had fun at all. Battler was in full angry mode while Beato was in full troll mode in EP2. Which made things seem more awkward than it should have in EP3 after Battler "moe-slapped" Beato. But in the VN also has the scene where the stakes keep killing Battler, and I don't think it's "fun". |
4saken_762 said: Right, but even in those scenes Battler keeps his chin up and isn't angry. He likes playing with his ass nee-chans, after all.But in the VN also has the scene where the stakes keep killing Battler, and I don't think it's "fun". |
MarthX said: PsychFreak said: MarthX said: Beatrice is more playful but she she's still a troll that loves toying with Battler's emotions. The thing is, she wasn't playful at all in the first 2 arcs of the anime, she was a troll 24/7. Then people got hit with the 180 in EP3 when she went all moe, it just seemed so unnatural. Luckily for them she reverted back to being a troll at the end. Even though Beatrice was playful in the VN, her sudden change was still unnatural in the VN. It was unnatural because she was faking it. The main error in characterization for Beato was in episode 3 after the fight with Virgilia. In the SN she still had some respect for her defeated teacher and orders Ronove to take care of the remains. In the Anime SHE STEPS ON HER TEACHER'S HEAD LIKE THE QUEEN BITCH OF THE WORLD. I'd say that's a BIG diference =_= |
| I don't remember that Beatrice has any respect to Virgillia. She sneered at her teacher right after the flashback about how Virgillia helped her in the past. Moreover, if everything is just an act, then that difference doesn't matter. naikou said: 4saken_762 said: Right, but even in those scenes Battler keeps his chin up and isn't angry. He likes playing with his ass nee-chans, after all.But in the VN also has the scene where the stakes keep killing Battler, and I don't think it's "fun". No, he just keep calm. His opponents want him to be miserable, so he shows them that he isn't. There's no way he can have fun in that scene. |
| I was just wondering and since I don't have enough time to read the VNs now... To me it came across that there were two bottles, with two manuscripts, both written by the same person, but describing a different chain of events. The question is - was it suggested anywhere that they are respectively what happened in arc 1 and arc 2, or are they describing a completely different events? Because if they indeed describe the events of the two first episodes it may be possible that (I come with it from 2 things - how the answers arcs are called "Dispersal" or "Disspellment" and how I've seen someone post the EP5 OP somewhere and it had a magical barrier breaking over Rokennjima) that all the events of VN take place in some sort of a timespace bubble (as in the gameboard is a world superimposed on the real Rokkenjima, not an alternative universe/kakera) and don't really produce any new continuities until after the game's outcome is decided. That of course in no way contradicts the fact that older Ange can never get her family back - if we break the bubble on the 4th of October and save everyone, then the then-6-year-old Ange* will get her family back, but the universe will branch into two universes (well, trillions of trillions of... etc. to be exact, but since we can differentiate them by the barrier breaking, let's just keep it to two main branches) and the older Ange, who has lost her family would still continue to exist with no hope of getting them back. I did drift a bit - what I wanted to say that when the Moetrice suspossedly denied the existence of witches she might have just lifted and respawned the gameboard, which might have looked like all the supernatural stuff just disappearing - and that's where the two bottles from previous arcs (which were previously trapped in the gameboard dimension) popped into the real world and the world with Evatrice as a Ushiromiya heir branched. (some sort of chart on how I see it - http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7032/sumchart.png) The other explantation could be only purely anti-fantastical with the letters being just an occult make-up by the real murderer, since I don't really remember anyone in When They Cry multiverse being able to pass anything more than a consciousness to an other universe, which makes it impossible for the bottles to be from different worlds if my barrier supposition falls (unless the witches get some new hax skills). On the other hand I just may as well be over-physicising it xD Also, my view on the anti-mystery/anti-magic is that they aren't mutually exclusive. On the contrary I think they complement eachother well - just suppose there is a kind of an existence we could call a witch. I wouldn't call them real in the most basic sense, but couldn't argue their nonexistence either (see, they're on imaginary plane!). I think that Umineko witches are just that - existences that can at best manifest to humans by their mastery of illusions and deception (or generally immaterial since they seem to have at least some degree mastery over timespace) and their magic is as strong as the suspension of disbelief. As incorporeal beings they can't interact with the real world directly, but only by influence on people. Say, a witch could make Rosa write the letter, put it in Maria's bag and forget it or make someone kill another person of the 18 without them remembering that. Would that make it a "witch did it" from the perspective of the real world? Anyone could argue it was a mental disorder, because they see only the actions, not the witch's influence. Does that make them real? Just if I was in Battler's shoes I wouldn't go for "deny the witches route" since it's obviously very hard if not downright impossible, but rather go for disproving them being "real". Uh yeah, stuff... xD Does it make any sense at least or was it all disproved later on? * - and maybe even not all of the younger Anges |
Jaen-ni-rinNov 14, 2009 5:53 AM
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