[SPOILERS] So maybe Satoko is irredeemable. Then what?

Mar 5, 2021 12:05 AM

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Apr 2016

From episode 22.

Many people (particularly on MAL discussions) keep saying that Ryukishi made Satoko irredeemable and is ''butchering'' her character, that Gou is unnecessary and shit and whatever. Well, taste and opinion are very subjective. But about killing a character, is he though? Those who've watched the OG (or mainly read the VN) will know that Satoko's life is really, really fucked up. Think about everything she went through:

- Satoko had difficulties adapting with her mother's remarriages, to the point of faking a child abuse and even hurting herself to try and get rid of one of her fathers.
- Satoko's parents supported the Dam Project, earning her the dislike of the village for free.
- Satoko pushed her parents down a cliff because of L5 stage of Hinamizawa's Syndrome. Although she later dropped to L3, Irie said that her mind has never fully recovered and is prone to react in extreme ways. This is propably more related to the trauma than the Syndrome itself.
- At some point, Satoko sneaked into the shrine's warehouse and broke the hand of Oyashiro's statue. She believes to be cursed since then.
- After being taken to live with her uncle Teppei, Satoko (and Satoshi) were pretty much abused on a regular basis.
- Satoko suddenly lost the person most important to her, Satoshi. Trauma intensified as she kept waiting for him.
- When Teppei returns to Hinamizawa, we see that Satoko has an enormous difficulty at communicating her problems with others and it takes a long effort for she to become more open.

Other points:

- Satoko is shown to be quite selfish and obsessive in general.
- Satoko has serious abandonment trauma.
- Satoko almost never had proper parenting (no well-defined morals or development of adult attitudes).
- Besides her friendship with Rika, Satoko is not necessarily shown to be a 'good' person
- Satoko is shown to be sympathetic with Takano and understands her.
- In Matsuribayashi (where looping Satoko comes from), aside from Teppei not returning, none of Satoko problems are really adressed.

This is all in OG Higurashi, for those who like to complain about ''sequels'. So, is it enough to redeem Satoko? Certainly not after episode 22, where we see that she intends to break Rika even though she now knows everything her friend went through. But this could make her a reasonable villain, as all the necessary traits are certainly there. Takano is a great villain with a sad backstory, even though it does not redeem her, so what's the problem? Just because you have an impression of a character doesn't mean it cannot develop differently in extreme scenarios (not everyone receives powers from a God, you know). So the last thing we need is a good motive. See:

- Friendship (even if it has become distorted) is the most wonderful motives of all, Satoko wants to be with Rika forever.
- Satoko believes Rika told about her trap skills.
- Satoko feels like Rika broke her promise.
- Satoko saw in the fragments that Rika knew about Satoshi's condition and hid it from her.
- Satoko just marathoned ALL of Hinamizawa's tragedies at once.
- Satoko has a broken mind.
- Satoko has received her power from and is being sponsored by an awaken Featherine.
- Consequences are less relevant if things are ''erased'' when you die (even if it's not).

And last but not least, a redeeming factor every good villain needs!

- We don't even know yet what Satoko would've done if she hadn't looped in the first place.

Now combine everything into a single character and you'll probably (I should say certainly) have a villain very similar to a certain cat in another story. When reaching the plane of fragments, one may confuse the means with the ends and lose track of the greater view. This is where Satoko is now.

So, for all the snowflakes and ''fans'' in the discussions who like to badmouth every episode non-stop for the smallest of details and keep saying Gou is shit because it kills Satoko's character: please at least be coherent. It's okay to not want a sequel, it's okay to not like Satoko's development, but you too must think of the greater view. Even if Gou is indeed shit (which it's not, in my opinion), it brought a lot of attention to OG Higurashi and possibly to other When They Cry series. It's a major win for the WTC universe. Even if you don't like it, consider that the author had the courage to drive one of his characters that far. He's directly involved in the production so there's certainly a lot of passion in this. And as of this writing, the story isn't even concluded. Who knows what the madman is up to.

Anyway, it is possible to get better at teathergoing, child of man. Have some love.

KazanFurinMar 5, 2021 12:22 AM

Mar 5, 2021 12:07 AM

Natsude_tanaka

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May 2020

793

yeah all that, idc shes a dick

Mar 5, 2021 12:48 AM

Chargecoulomb

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May 2020

610

@KazanFurin

The problem is not what Satoko has become. Its the reasons that Ryuukishi wrote for her becoming so.

Psst. Being a good theatergoer is not about blindly clapping for every play they put out. Bad shows must be booed out.

As Fans we want Higurashi to be the best it can be, and not settle for what is in our opinion bad. If you think otherwise good for you.

Love? Love is about understanding something. Accepting its faults and strengths.

;-------

- Besides her friendship with Rika, Satoko is not necessarily shown to be a 'good' person

* Lovely Character Assasination. Even though her traps can be painful sometimes she is shown to care about others more often than... never.

- Satoko is shown to be sympathetic with Takano and understands her.

* In Miotsukushi ahe could understand Takanos motives, AND she understood that she could become a monster like Takano and go too far if no one stopped her. She feels sorry for Takano, not what Takano planned to do.

- In Matsuribayashi (where looping Satoko comes from), aside from Teppei not returning, none of Satoko problems are really adressed.

* Satoko doesnt learn to reach out for help, this is a good point. However everyone has known and acknowleged this for a while.

;------------

- Friendship (even if it has become distorted) is the most wonderful motives of all, Satoko wants to be with Rika forever.

* Thats called Manic obession. Its neither friendship or love. She just doesnt want to be with her. She wants to BREAK her. Destroy her mentally until she becomes a hopeless mess.

- Satoko believes Rika told about her trap skills.
- Satoko feels like Rika broke her promise.

* Which Justifies Gou how? She has Rikas memories so she knows what really happened.

- Satoko saw in the fragments that Rika knew about Satoko's condition and hid it from her.

* Which is not Rikas fault. Irie and Shion wanted to do the same. She has Rikas memories. She knows who did what.

- Satoko just marathoned ALL of Hinamizawa's tragedies at once.

* She took them in the same 100 year pace that Rika did. Rika didnt have downtime between worlds either.

- Satoko has a broken mind.

* She suffers from HS before Gou, but is otherwise quite normal.
In Gou she no longer has HS. And she killed Rika in cold blood.

- Satoko has received her power from and is being sponsored by an awaken Featherine.

* Which affects her character and personality how? Satoko doesnt know who featherine is. Also Featherine doesnt push Satoko to do what she does.

- Consequences are less relevant if things are ''erased'' when you die (even if it's not).

* That doesnt change the fact that you did it. If I Killed someone, and went back in time and didnt do it. I have still killed a person in cold blood. Even though it is not represented physically.
Satoko killed Rika and other people continously.

- We don't even know yet what Satoko would've done if she hadn't looped in the first place.

* We can speculate. What she did with her Uncle. Try to hide and manage things by herself pretending to Rika that everything is ok. Until she gives up or breaks.

ChargecoulombMar 5, 2021 1:01 AM

Mar 5, 2021 2:51 AM

KazanFurin

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Apr 2016

@Chargecoulomb

So far do we know the reason why Ryukishi wrote her like that? I believe not, so that can't be a problem yet. Part of teathergoing is the expectation up until the end. Gou hasn't ended so I refrain from judging. Everyone is free to criticize, it's just that some people can be really mean while at it.

* Even though her traps can be painful sometimes she is shown to care about others more often than... never

- She cares mostly about Rika and that's it. This is the whole point of Satoko's obsession escalating to the maximum and then becoming twisted because of Featherine's power.

* In Miotsukushi she could understand Takanos motives, AND she understood that she could become a monster like Takano and go too far if no one stopped her

- That's the point. She feels alone now and not only there's no one to stop her now, Feathering is amping her up.

* Which justifies Gou how? She has Rikas memories so she knows what really happened

- Maybe I'm being picky but it's not exactly clear if Rika's memories include post OG events.

* She took them in the same 100 year pace that Rika did

- Arguable. What we are shown implies that Satoko watched scenes that Rika couldn't have seen. In others she's already dead and for both cases Rika hardly remembers anything.

* She suffers from HS before Gou, but is otherwise quite normal

- Since Ryukishi used screentime to show that HS is no more, it's not a factor. But you can't really say that someone who lived through all she did is ''normal''. Or that living with L3 for years didn't cause any damage. Rika seemed normal too, yet she has a Bern inside.

* That doesnt change the fact that you did it

- Well of course but that is grey territory. It's a matter of morals and Satoko can easily cross the line if there's no one to stop her, as mentioned before. Also, anyone would probably do a lot of things if they could erase them later. It's just very easy to happen in desperate situations.

Of course none of that is supposed to redeem Satoko and I'm still proposing her as a villain. In my perspective, though, she's a girl with several issues that never matured so her mind and motive are still childish. Makes perfect sense to me. Irregular Entropy's lyric is all about this. I'm not even sure if I like Satoko the way she's now, but it's fine as long as I can understand it. That's my point.

Mar 5, 2021 4:01 AM

ssjokg

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Aug 2009

20055

There is no good motive or set up from the OG for what Satoko is doing now.

Compare her actions and reactions to those of Rika's in Dice Killing and you will hopefully understand why Satoko gets all the hate.

Takano worked her ass off to get where she was while Satoko was given everything she needed to break Rika. And Takano didnt use the abuse victim card to get out of jail. Her experiences in the orphanage have nothing to do with her actions in Hinamizawa. Would she have she developed like that without it? Most likely not. But the GHD and her abuse were never linked.

Takano is a compelling villain with a goal that makes sense and doesnt make you question her character before because nothing in her younger days conflicts with her actions as major. .
Every action Satoko takes is more retarded than the previous one. She is far from a reasonable villain.

And btw after 100 years Rika is still a person with empathy for others. Satoko gave up on seeing Rika's pov before even starting to loop.

And for the love of god. We can judge it base don what we see, not what may happen later. If it had 800 episodes would I have to wait till then to judge it?

And it isnt that Satoko's arc here bad as an idea. The execution is what is bad. Just because an idea is good doesnt mean that it will turn out good, and Satoko's tory in Gou is far from good.

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

Mar 5, 2021 5:27 AM

Ranacchi

Dragon Idol

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May 2017

7475

I haven't seen the OG yet (will do once Gou is finished) and imo Rika and Satoko are approximately as bad as one another.

Neither of them I can root for.
I thought Rika was the person to root for until I saw her heartlessly betray Satoko. Though I'm not sure if by then (that episode) she knew Satoko was sabotaging her. Ideally Rika would take the knowledge from these later loops and prevent herself from betraying Satoko but after 22 episodes of this stuff idk if I can even expect a humane thing from this entry anymore.

I do agree with that Gou is great for Higurashi as a whole, I never planned on watching OG Higurashi so soon

Mar 5, 2021 6:55 AM

Haunt-bot

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Jun 2012

2434

I thought her deciding to loop back was within character for Satako, though choosing to watch a 100 years of memories was the point it crossed the line for me of over the top and stretching believability. Satako at this point is a piece of shit but I like how they are willing to show Satako and to a lesser extent Rika as being flawed.

I still suspect they are going to try to redeem Satako; maybe by having her realize the error of her ways and kill herself with the magic knife; though that wouldn't excuse the things she's done. I think at this point she is unredeemable and any attempt to do so will seem forced.

Shoot first, think never.

Mar 5, 2021 11:15 AM

FrozenSheep

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Jul 2016

420

I kinda wish Rika would take her own life, leaving Sakoto into an endless loop where she can never win, because Rika is dead, forever.

Irredeemable character deserves unforgiving end.

Mar 5, 2021 11:53 AM

BakaDood

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Sep 2014

ssjokg said:
There is no good motive or set up from the OG for what Satoko is doing now.

Compare her actions and reactions to those of Rika's in Dice Killing and you will hopefully understand why Satoko gets all the hate.

Takano worked her ass off to get where she was while Satoko was given everything she needed to break Rika. And Takano didnt use the abuse victim card to get out of jail. Her experiences in the orphanage have nothing to do with her actions in Hinamizawa. Would she have she developed like that without it? Most likely not. But the GHD and her abuse were never linked.

Takano is a compelling villain with a goal that makes sense and doesnt make you question her character before because nothing in her younger days conflicts with her actions as major. .
Every action Satoko takes is more retarded than the previous one. She is far from a reasonable villain.

And btw after 100 years Rika is still a person with empathy for others. Satoko gave up on seeing Rika's pov before even starting to loop.

And for the love of god. We can judge it base don what we see, not what may happen later. If it had 800 episodes would I have to wait till then to judge it?

And it isnt that Satoko's arc here bad as an idea. The execution is what is bad. Just because an idea is good doesnt mean that it will turn out good, and Satoko's tory in Gou is far from good.

Um, no??? The GHD is totally in part motivated by her experience in the orphanage. Her desperation for proving the thesis right does in fact branch from the orphanage experience. Trauma does in fact build upon other actions.
Saying "would she have...most likely not" is in contradiction with "but the GHD and her abuse are never linked".

Mar 5, 2021 1:45 PM

#10

Hulio

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Oct 2014

623

BakaDood said:
Um, no??? The GHD is totally in part motivated by her experience in the orphanage. Her desperation for proving the thesis right does in fact branch from the orphanage experience. Trauma does in fact build upon other actions.
Saying "would she have...most likely not" is in contradiction with "but the GHD and her abuse are never linked".

There's totally no proof that the Orphanage events had anything to do with the GHD.
But yes, from what we've seen, it does seem that the Orphanage events affected her relationship with her Grandpa, which was directly related to the Thesis and all that eventually leading to GHD. Hence we can't say that they're completely unrelated either.

However the point here is (I believe) that It's not like Takano is planning to do some GHD because she had just a nice childhood, hence they're not "linked".
Guessing person's motivations in this context is purely speculative on both directions, but I have to agree with ssjokg that the Orphanage Abuse does not work as a motivation for the GHD itself, but it's not irrelevant either cause it's her childhood.

Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids.

Mar 5, 2021 2:31 PM

#11

ssjokg

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Aug 2009

20055

Hulio said:

Oh course.

If the orphanage didn't exist then she wouldn't have met Dr Takano, see him ridiculed by colleagues etc.

The orphanage is the second domino in a line that leads to the GHD. But it isnt the reason she causes it.

Might as well say that Takano was born so the GHD will happen.

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

Mar 5, 2021 2:55 PM

#12

KazanFurin

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Apr 2016

@ssjokg

Motive and setup are supposed to be in Gou. Information from OG are to show it was possible. This development may lead into something we don't know yet. Of course I can't say if everything will feel justified when it ends, even if the purpose was to expand upon the WTC series.

- Takano's actions towards the GHD may not be directly linked with her childhood. However, if you acknowlegde that she would probably not develop like that without it, you are aware that problems build up over other problems and create villains. Therefore Takano is only Takano because her life was a mess. Frederica basically prevents ''Takano'' from developing by changing one single event. But reality is inevitable.

- Everything Satoko does is very questionable indeed. But she's a kid that didn't really mature so I never expected her to be some kind of mastermind like Takano. Only now after watching 100 years of Higurashi did she put her brain in action. Let's remember that it was not Satoko's decision to start looping in the first place and that this same Satoko tried to talk things out with Rika while looping on the good side. She also killed only herself most of the time and the condition to kill Rika was presented by Featherine too.

- What can you judge for real without knowing the end of it? You can say if you like it or not, but that's just personal taste. A scene you just watched can mean something entirely different if you learn something new by the end of the story. Umineko is all about that, lol. Satoko's tantrum in Tatarimadashi and the effects of L5 throughout Nekodamashi seemed poorly executed, but they were tools to show that Satoko was faking it all. It's just not possible to jump to conclusions just because you don't like it. Of course there's doubt if the author is capable of wrapping things up but that's another point entirely. Can't talk for the whole story without the ending.

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[SPOILERS] So maybe Satoko is irredeemable. Then what?

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