Not to start a genre war, but is it generally universally accepted Sci-Fi is the most groundbreaking, revolutionary, and thought-provoking anime?
| It doesn't have to mean, of course, the type of anime you particularly like the most. I watch and like all genres. Well, most. Some of my favorites are Slice of Life, horror, fantasy, etc. I like science fiction as well, but have never been a real hardcore sci-fi fanatic. It just occurred to me though that many of the anime that are praised as the most original and unique, complex, and stand out as one of a kind works with multiple interpretations are very genre specific heavy hard or soft sci-fi. Anime like Serial Experiments Lain, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Texhnolyze, Ergo Proxy, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, and others. They ask questions about mankind's past, present, and future and seem to explore philosophy, the physical limits of man either in exploration, body resilience/mortality, or social interaction/communication, and even ideology in a way that shows subjectivity of perspective combined with novel writing and presentation more than most. Why is this? And do you think there are other genres which can compete with it in this respect? What are some examples of some non-sci-fi anime that are high quality and can be said to accomplish either the same things or different things to the same level as some of these standards of the sci-fi anime genre? |
| I'd argue that what allows Sci-Fi to innovate is the ability to do world building, as any ability can be introduced using technology as approximation of magic, any social structure is plausible, and even biology is up for grabs. The other genre having those freedoms is fantasy, but it's often limited because they stick with a medieval world and proven systems of magic. So this is a cautious: yes. Second, the advantage Sci-Fi has holds for plot driven stories only. In character driven stories, where there is as much innovation possible, any genre can do the trick. |
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| I guess it makes sense. If you're writing future sci-fi, then you're writing a future and that opens up a lot of possibilities for how the writer would want this future to look, which can inspire or depress people, depending on how good or bad they want it to be. Star Trek's been doing this for decades and it's always been a front-runner in normalising stuff that would've been unexpected or taboo at the time. It's the kind of thing I'd like to build into my own fiction if possible. |
WatchTillTandava said: I mean, I wasn't aware that people even thought this, so I guess my answer to this question is no, it's not "generally universally accepted", from what I know.is it generally universally accepted Sci-Fi is the most groundbreaking, revolutionary, and thought-provoking anime? As to whether sci-fi is "the most groundbreaking, revolutionary, and thought-provoking anime [genre]"? Maybe, maybe not. "Groundbreaking" and "revolutionary" in terms of changing the landscape of the medium and being influential, probably not; clearly we've got a variety of non-sci-fi works that are highly influential (the Dragon Ball franchise, Azumanga Daioh, a variety of Miyazaki/Ghibli movies, the Fate/ franchise, Haruhi, Sailor Moon, etc.). "Thought-provoking", perhaps, but if it is, I'd guess that it's because authors find it convenient to use sci-fi to explore social/political/philosophical themes, since it's realistic enough to feel relevant but also gives them enough speculative room to craft whatever scenarios they choose. There are certainly a ton of sci-fi series that don't put much emphasis on these themes, too. If you look at influential English-language literature, sure you have works like Fahrenheit 451 and 1984 and (to some extent, because it's more general speculative-fiction than specifically sci-fi) The Handmaid's Tale, but you also have a ton of works that touch on social/political/philosophical themes that are not sci-fi by any stretch of the imagination -- from The Scarlet Letter to Great Expectations to Things Fall Apart to Catch-22 to Animal Farm. They all managed to discuss these themes without using sci-fi settings/elements. EDIT: 1984 is just political fiction; not sci-fi. Oops. And I think one could also say that the flipside of the above -- the idea that sci-fi just makes it easier to explore these themes -- is that the anime fandom at large hasn't gotten to the point of commonly looking into stories through these interpretative lenses yet, unless there's basically no other "lens" that's usable -- e.g. when a "mind screw" moment comes in Evangelion or Lain and nothing makes sense so you have to go for these less common approaches. Compare, more commonly used "lenses" include relating works to other past works, understanding setting/worldbuilding details, and simply memeing something up. For example, the Nanoha series is generally discussed as (1) taking inspiration/influence from and sometimes even making reference to various mecha shows, and (2) a wellspring of lesbian relationshps and "befriending". There's much less attention paid, it seems, to the philosophical/ethical ideas of reaching out to one's enemies and talking to them and humanizing them, which is just as much a consistent element of stories in the Nanoha-verse. It's very much possible to look at the anime we have through these more social/political/philosophical lenses. We can think of A Silent Voice in terms of the social aftermath of bullying, or The Girl Who Leapt Through Time as a commentary on how we use our time, or Beyond the Boundary in terms of common elements of humanity and how the characters at various times try to push aside or embrace these elements. We can examine portrayals of Japan, the Japanese government, and the Japanese military in anime, and relate them to real-life social/political opinions on the same. To some extent people already do these things. It's just that it's easiest to do this stuff for series which kinda don't have any other easily-thought-of way of appreciating them. |
GlennMagusHarveyOct 19, 2019 6:20 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| By combination of all those aspects, the answer is yes. But other genres can surpass sci-fi in individual aspect, for example psychological without sci-fi can be more thought provoking than a mere sci-fi. |
"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare. But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !" |
| Yeah, you can easily set up a scenario that doesn't involve sci-fi but has those highbrow themes or genres. For example, Madoka Magica and Black Rock Shooter (TV) are more like magical realism in their treatment of psychological horror elements. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Nah not really. But it is the most pretentious for sure. Jokes aside there is a ton of genres that go out of their usual stuff to make interesting concepts. The easiest examples are FMAB, The Chimera Ant Arc, and Death Note. That´s just shonen. With creativity you can do so much with any kind of resource honestly. |
Sci-Fi is the most contrived genre. When they try to pretend that it has a deeper meaning, it doesn't impress me. Just say that this is the way this anime universe works, but don't dress it up with bullshit. Save that for Fantasy. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: WatchTillTandava said: I mean, I wasn't aware that people even thought this, so I guess my answer to this question is no, it's not "generally universally accepted", from what I know.is it generally universally accepted Sci-Fi is the most groundbreaking, revolutionary, and thought-provoking anime? As to whether sci-fi is "the most groundbreaking, revolutionary, and thought-provoking anime [genre]"? Maybe, maybe not. "Groundbreaking" and "revolutionary" in terms of changing the landscape of the medium and being influential, probably not; clearly we've got a variety of non-sci-fi works that are highly influential (the Dragon Ball franchise, Azumanga Daioh, a variety of Miyazaki/Ghibli movies, the Fate/ franchise, Haruhi, Sailor Moon, etc.). "Thought-provoking", perhaps, but if it is, I'd guess that it's because authors find it convenient to use sci-fi to explore social/political/philosophical themes, since it's realistic enough to feel relevant but also gives them enough speculative room to craft whatever scenarios they choose. There are certainly a ton of sci-fi series that don't put much emphasis on these themes, too. If you look at influential English-language literature, sure you have works like Fahrenheit 451 and 1984 and (to some extent, because it's more general speculative-fiction than specifically sci-fi) The Handmaid's Tale, but you also have a ton of works that touch on social/political/philosophical themes that are not sci-fi by any stretch of the imagination -- from The Scarlet Letter to Great Expectations to Things Fall Apart to Catch-22 to Animal Farm. They all managed to discuss these themes without using sci-fi settings/elements. EDIT: 1984 is just political fiction; not sci-fi. Oops. And I think one could also say that the flipside of the above -- the idea that sci-fi just makes it easier to explore these themes -- is that the anime fandom at large hasn't gotten to the point of commonly looking into stories through these interpretative lenses yet, unless there's basically no other "lens" that's usable -- e.g. when a "mind screw" moment comes in Evangelion or Lain and nothing makes sense so you have to go for these less common approaches. Compare, more commonly used "lenses" include relating works to other past works, understanding setting/worldbuilding details, and simply memeing something up. For example, the Nanoha series is generally discussed as (1) taking inspiration/influence from and sometimes even making reference to various mecha shows, and (2) a wellspring of lesbian relationshps and "befriending". There's much less attention paid, it seems, to the philosophical/ethical ideas of reaching out to one's enemies and talking to them and humanizing them, which is just as much a consistent element of stories in the Nanoha-verse. It's very much possible to look at the anime we have through these more social/political/philosophical lenses. We can think of A Silent Voice in terms of the social aftermath of bullying, or The Girl Who Leapt Through Time as a commentary on how we use our time, or Beyond the Boundary in terms of common elements of humanity and how the characters at various times try to push aside or embrace these elements. We can examine portrayals of Japan, the Japanese government, and the Japanese military in anime, and relate them to real-life social/political opinions on the same. To some extent people already do these things. It's just that it's easiest to do this stuff for series which kinda don't have any other easily-thought-of way of appreciating them. I would say Haruhi is actually part Sci-Fi. It's like a whimsical and tonally lighthearted combo of Sci-Fi and Slice of Life with some other more minor/supporting genre elements and influences (mystery, romance, comedy, etc.). It feels something like a Sci-Fi sitcom like a more terrestrial Red Dwarf. Fair points on everything else though and an interesting post overall, as has been everyone else's here. I didn't have time to respond yesterday, but read everything you folks posted above. Because Sci-Fi deals with such weighty themes as the nature of existence and consciousness, communication, the transience/impermanence of any biological unit and basic matter, it tends toward abstraction. Obviously this has degrees. Something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes is a much more straightforward story and deals with political science and philosophy with the physical sciences like how energy beams on ships work just fantastical or unimportant background scenery more than something like Lain or Kaiba which deal with transhumanism. I haven't seen other genres in anime that tend to get this abstract (maybe the end of Madoka Magica, a dark fantasy, but even then, you could say, to bring into the narrative the most existential things conceivable to us as men it has to incorporate some science. It doesn't have to be abstract, told in a narratively unconventional way like shifting first person perspective frantically or told non-chronologically in a way that arguably to some appears convoluted, although several take artistic license and choose to go this route. It's worth thinking about what you say about viewers, whether anime viewers specifically or outside critics, not used to viewing straightforward and realistic dramas like this apart from the few professional or amateur critics who can articulate it properly and write analyses based around such, but I still don't know if I'd call them as narratively rich and stitched at every seam with symbolism and multiple interpretations as some of those giants of the Sci-Fi genre or as ambitious in the scope of their topics, but it may be impossible to even establish a metric to measure something like that. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 20, 2019 5:12 PM
| From a literary perspective it would be seen as "genre fiction" and considered limited. Or at least, that was my experience dealing with creative types in university. I'm far removed from that pretension now, who knows where the wind blows today? I doubt your claim is universally accepted or even accepted by a majority. Personally, I look to fiction for an expression of the artist's experience, and in this case whether they go for metaphorical fantasy, speculative sci-fi, or some weird representation of the modern world, that world building takes a back seat to the characters. Plenty of people will think of SoL/drama when you say "thought provoking" and I'm one of them. Anyway, I think many stories brought up as groundbreaking are rehashing old concepts anyway, they're perceived as groundbreaking because they put old ideas in a modern skin. When it comes to science in fiction, I guess these days I prefer hard sci-fi or non-fiction for those topics. I think too much fantastical sci-fi has dragged our popular perception of life extension technology, space exploration, artificial intelligence, robotic body alteration, etc. into a gutter. Well, that said, enjoy whatever you want, that's just my rambling idea. |
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SillySlySy said: I doubt your claim is universally accepted or even accepted by a majority. I want to stress that I'm not making any claim, which is why I posed the thread title in the form of a question. It was to ask other posters their opinion, because I myself am undecided about and trying to think about this. I knew even having the title include the phrasing I did about being thought-provoking would inevitably arouse allegations of pretentiousness either about the shows themselves, me, or the people wanting to explore the topic, either in jest or with vitriol, but oh well. I thought it's still an important discussion worth having about an interesting subject. I don't think with all the available knowledge we have now collectively and all of recorded history behind us you can really tell a completely original story. It's said that all the stories have already been told and there are only a few baseline models to choose from, so the best you can do is mix and match the pieces and repackage them aesthetically, as you say. Also, depending on culture, some ideas fall out of pop culture/the popular consciousness in, say the Western world, for many generations and are then revived. And what separates softer Sci-Fi from science fantasy isn't always clear to me. |
WatchTillTandava said: SillySlySy said: I want to stress that I'm not making any claim, which is why I posed the thread title in the form of a question.I doubt your claim is universally accepted or even accepted by a majority. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusatory there. Also, I hope to get across that I don't think there's anything wrong with having a preference for Sci-Fi and its themes. There certainly are plenty of good Sci-Fi that can be interesting to think about. The lines for this sort of thing are always blurry. Do you count Parasyte and Gatchaman Crowds as Sci-Fi or not? Personally I'd say they reflect a warped view of modern society and modern technology, rather than some speculation of a future society. I'd differentiate Sci-Fi as a genre pertaining to a speculated future society with the speculated advancement of technology. While I might say these are both shows that give you something to think about that aren't Sci-Fi, you might say these are both examples of Sci-Fi exploring interesting questions. Your mileage may vary when it comes to how thought provoking a show is, too. When you see Yuri Kuma or Sarazanmai do you think it's exploring the nature of society, or is it just a bunch of random weird perverted stuff? Do you see NHK ni Youkoso as a real thoughtful reflection on human suffering, or do you see the petulant whining of a druggie? Koukaku no Pandora is a deceptively thought provoking Sci-Fi disguising itself as ecchi. You may or may not be disgusted. How far are you willing to dig into a show and at what point does that digging become a waste of your time? |
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| It is, if we are talking about all mediums not just anime. |
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| I would not think so, atleast not at all in my anecdotal experiences. Sci-fi itself is an oxymoron. Science and fiction don't go hand in hand. It's perhaps more convenient or easier to come up with new concepts which are strictly a set of fantasies when taking into account our current state of scientific progress (for ex. the use of metamaterials in an anime called Beatless. Metamaterials are a hot new topic because they exhibit physical behaviours that sometimes go against predictions made using existing mathematical models. Sci-fi can just extend it into a 'what-if' scenario since it is fiction) Perhaps this ease comes into play by using the fact that science is tied to human progress. Progress is tied to development and economic wealth. Achieving that level of wealth requires consumption of resources. Control over said resources is what determines who has power to exert dominance on others. It's a fairly linear thought process when coming up with a plot or story but they can be developed in numerous ways by piggy-back riding on the current research in science (since there's quite a fair bit of groundbreaking stuff being done in several fields). That aside, I think your question might have more to do with circumstantial evidence such that it just so happened that all of those works you mentioned were related to science in one form or another. I would wager that similar level of work could be achieved in other genres but that's just a possibility waiting to happen. |
KreatorXOct 21, 2019 1:03 AM
| Folks, there's a lot of people here stating that they don't agree with the premise (which again, is not my claim, but asked in the form of a question for a reason, since I'm unsure of it myself and trying to figure out and debate it internally) and have interesting explanations as to why in their posts, but not a lot of counter-examples from outside of the Sci-Fi genre being offered up. KreatorX said: That aside, I think your question might have more to do with circumstantial evidence such that it just so happened that all of those works you mentioned were related to science in one form or another. I would wager that similar level of work could be achieved in other genres but that's just a possibility waiting to happen. Hmm, does this mean you would say a similar level of work (in intricacy, symbolism, depth, etc., as laid out in the OP) generally hasn't been achieved yet in the other genres? Aside from that question, I find the rest of your post in the portion I didn't quote also is interesting because it veers into the territory of how we define this genre, this Sci-Fi. As you state, a lot of the time the premise is not based on existing available science and outpaces technology currently developed and available to man manyfold, but is it not in these cases usually still based on scientific principles (I'm talking in high quality, well-researched Sci-Fi that doesn't just make up random gibberish)? Even if it won't be invented for 20 years or 10,000 years, it's still technically possible and achievable within the realm of the laws of physics. I don't like to say anything is ever "impossible" as many inventions which exist now would have been labeled impossible and scoffed at as quackery or black magic a few hundred years ago by otherwise intelligent and enlightened individuals who knew as much as anyone from information available at the time in their era. But something which seems more designed to cater to fantasy like time travel and androids that run more on fantasy lines (like, say, someone makes a wish which allows them to time travel or does so by the power of love, rather than wormholes and bending spacetime in some mathemathically quantifiable way) would be classic science fantasy. RonnyZapata said: Chaan!!! cha-Chaaan!!  Ok, speaking seriously. The sci-fi genre began in the 20's inside on the literature. Over the years, it innovated in many arts, for example the comic (eighth art), cinema (seventh) or music (fourth). Many authors appeared who collaborated with the genre, Lovecraft, Asimov, Owell, Kubrick, Lenon, G. Lucas. ETC. The term science fiction is something very new, because it does not even take a century to this day (7 years left until have one century). That is why it is very innovative until now, adding that there have been many great authors and subgeneres like Cyberpunk or Retrofuturism that have kept the genre alive. Sci-fi did not revolutionize only anime, it went to many types of arts. On the other hand, previous works of 1920 and that can be described as science fiction, for example, Frankestein, are described as protocience fiction. I invite you to see the first cinematographic work of this genre, it takes a few minutes, it is exciting to see how the moon before was a mystical place and full of poetry: The first proto sci-fi film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNU6mImbU-Q Thanks for this. Great post on modern (20th century) development and progression of the genre, how it was built out and expanded upon and niches carved within it (I suppose you could call these Sci-Fi's subgenres). It makes sense you bring in these other authors and filmmakers since another poster above stated they consider the premise of Sci-Fi having the most potential if we look at it across all the mediums, and of course, all mediums combined, what are considered the hallmarks of Sci-Fi, the real pioneer Sci-Fi, are typically not anime; it's true. I don't think I have any preferential bias toward Sci-Fi since I like it about equally as fantasy, watch and can enjoy a whole kaleidoscope of genres for different reasons and want them all in my life, and never considered myself a Sci-Fi nut. Though outside anime, films like Videodrome, Contact, The Fly, Cube, Blade Runner, Dark City, and Invaders from Mars are up there and would secure some of the top rankings were I to make a favorite film list, so I figure there's a reason I keep being drawn to them. Appreciate the link. It sounds like a treat. I'll watch today. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 21, 2019 12:04 PM
| Groundbreaking? Maybe. It's definitely easier to treat new ground and explore new ideas or concepts if you set your narrative in the future because any aspect of the past or current time that gets explored had to already exist before it was explored in fiction so it can't really be groundbreaking in that sense. Though I'd phrase it more as having the most potential to be groundbreaking and innovative. Because the reality is you can make a sci-fi show without exploring anything new or interesting as well, it happens all the time. Potential is just potential after all. Revolutionary? For me that is a term that always needs context. What is being revolutionized? In terms of anime or fiction in general, revolutions are usually either specific to the technologies or techniques involved in producing them, or they are genre specific revolutionary elements that either popularize or change a specific genre for the future. So I wouldn't give sci-fi any particularly meaningful role in this compared to any other type of show. Thought-provoking? Not necessarily. The potential is definitely there to be one of the most thought-provoking genres, but there's a lot of other genres that don't have to hide either. Mystery, anything psychological, anything philosophical, dementia, even just any good drama. If anything I'd say by definition the most 'thought-provoking' genres are mystery and dementia because they make it hard to figure out what exactly is going on and require you to think and theorize about what is going on at any given point in time more than any other genre. Also in general anything can be thought-provoking, but there's a different kind of thought that different genres will provoke and while you can assess quality values to them, ultimately it's just a matter of preference if you prefer thinking about the hidden beauty or humour of everyday life in a slice of life show or the potential future of mankind, technology and the universe in sci-fi. Overall I personally do see sci-fi as having the most potential for innovative concepts, ideas and plotlines and it's one of my favorite genres for that reason, but I'd be careful attaching more adjectives to that claim. And I will also add that in recent years I'm more and more starting to see that as less of an inherent advantage of the genre and more like a responsability that makes sci-fi shows much more vulnerable to being really irrelevant if they don't manage to explore any interestig or innovative topics. Just throwing together a bunch of tropes does not make an enjoyable sci-fi show in most cases, while I'm totally finding that enjoyable for other genres I love like fantasy, battle shounen, sports or mystery. Sci-fi by definition has to keep reinventing and one-upping itself because treading 'new' ground is a pretty essential part of its definition. That sets it apart from other genres which don't need to do that and can just focus on the form, on the execution of familiar, universal, timeless topics. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
WatchTillTandava said: Folks, there's a lot of people here stating that they don't agree with the premise (which again, is not my claim, but asked in the form of a question for a reason, since I'm unsure of it myself and trying to figure out and debate it internally) and have interesting explanations as to why in their posts, but not a lot of counter-examples from outside of the Sci-Fi genre being offered up. KreatorX said: That aside, I think your question might have more to do with circumstantial evidence such that it just so happened that all of those works you mentioned were related to science in one form or another. I would wager that similar level of work could be achieved in other genres but that's just a possibility waiting to happen. Hmm, does this mean you would say a similar level of work (in intricacy, symbolism, depth, etc., as laid out in the OP) generally hasn't been achieved yet in the other genres? Yes, it may not have been achieved yet if we go by the tally of examples. Of-course, I say this with an emphasis on my anecdotal viewing experiences. I almost exclusively shy away from all ongoing/incomplete works since I want full stories with an ending as intended by the creators. There is quite a lot of stuff lying around that I haven't checked out myself. There may also be several unfinished works from all genres that will never ever catch my attention due to the same reason. Nonetheless, I do observe sci-fi to be easier to experiment with since science is dedicated towards understanding how the universe works (can be extrapolated to 'controlling' how the universe works). So there's quite the plethora of 'what-if' scenarios to play around with. This otherwise requires a different approach when coming to other genres. I am not a literary expert so I am unable to convey the point clearly but I refer to the 'crux' of the story, something which I think you mean to imply by groundbreaking, revolutionary and/or thought-provoking. Two examples I could use in an attempt to explain the point are Kaiba and Shiki, which I personally found to be quite thought-provoking. In Sci-fi (Kaiba), I believe the setting (or synopsis) can carry half of that crux when compared to non-sci fi work (Shiki). Could be wrong though, given my viewing preferences. WatchTillTandava said: Aside from that question, I find the rest of your post in the portion I didn't quote also is interesting because it veers into the territory of how we define this genre, this Sci-Fi. As you state, a lot of the time the premise is not based on existing available science and outpaces technology currently developed and available to man manyfold, but is it not in these cases usually still based on scientific principles (I'm talking in high quality, well-researched Sci-Fi that doesn't just make up random gibberish)? Even if it won't be invented for 20 years or 10,000 years, it's still technically possible and achievable within the realm of the laws of physics. I don't like to say anything is ever "impossible" as many inventions which exist now would have been labeled impossible and scoffed at as quackery or black magic a few hundred years ago by otherwise intelligent and enlightened individuals who knew as much as anyone from information available at the time in their era. But something which seems more designed to cater to fantasy like time travel and androids that run more on fantasy lines (like, say, someone makes a wish which allows them to time travel or does so by the power of love, rather than wormholes and bending spacetime in some mathemathically quantifiable way) would be classic science fantasy. xD good example, but yeah, I agree with what you said. Speaking for myself, Sci-fi does appear to have this tendency to cater to more serious or mature themed work, which is again tied to that thought process I mentioned earlier, concerning the development of such stories. I personally haven't come across any cheery themed Sci-fi work (debar one or two). |
KreatorX said: Two examples I could use in an attempt to explain the point are Kaiba and Shiki, which I personally found to be quite thought-provoking. In Sci-fi (Kaiba), I believe the setting (or synopsis) can carry half of that crux when compared to non-sci fi work (Shiki). Could be wrong though, given my viewing preferences. It's funny that incidentally, both happen to be series in my top ten, but just combing through my favorites and completed series list again, I believe Shiki is one of the most fitting ones you could cite (as far as what I've seen, as I can only judge works I've seen and refuse to pass real judgment/critique on any other), because it's a case example of the type of thing I was attempting to convey in the OP - It far transcends its basic premise/synopsis, which is already a great but more simple and straightforward story, the story it tells on the surface, to become a story about grave philosophical quandaries, with the characters used as a vehicle for that. It becomes more about humanity's place in the world among other sentient life forms and those of lesser intelligence/agency, predator vs. prey species, individuals place in a society when they don't want to accept the role foisted on them, etc. Without question it's not a standard horror. The corpse demons/risen/shiki also remind me of the form the parasites assume when occupying a human body as a puppet in Kiseijuu. Interesting that that series also features an inhuman but humanoid (after they merge with a host) other species which is intelligent and intelligible to people communication-wise, and a somewhat radical anti-anthropocentric message. And you're right that this is done in a story that is a horror first, later evolves into more of a tragic drama, but nothing to do with Sci-Fi. I see as well how this can relate to certain comments in the thread about some Slice of Life series also having the same lackadaisical, meandering, contemplative pace to devote a portion of their runtime to the big questions about existence and fundamental parts of daily life people don't often openly discuss, question, or think about rather than just action-driven plot. I won't discount that either since I also have SoLs among my top faves and saw that same appeal in them, but to me this can't be just a Cute Girls Doing Cute Things or similar type of light puffy SoL but actually has to have some drama, romance, and stakes of some sort fused in there. |
KreatorX said: Technically, what we call "sci-fi" or "science fiction" is more accurately called "technological fiction" ("tech-fi"?). It's based on speculating upon the possibilities presented by our technology -- most typically outer space, robots, computers, transportation tech, and information tech. Rarely (maybe never?) have I seen a sci-fi series that is based on speculating about science without speculating about technology.I would not think so, atleast not at all in my anecdotal experiences. Sci-fi itself is an oxymoron. Science and fiction don't go hand in hand. It's perhaps more convenient or easier to come up with new concepts which are strictly a set of fantasies when taking into account our current state of scientific progress (for ex. the use of metamaterials in an anime called Beatless. Metamaterials are a hot new topic because they exhibit physical behaviours that sometimes go against predictions made using existing mathematical models. Sci-fi can just extend it into a 'what-if' scenario since it is fiction) Perhaps this ease comes into play by using the fact that science is tied to human progress. Progress is tied to development and economic wealth. Achieving that level of wealth requires consumption of resources. Control over said resources is what determines who has power to exert dominance on others. It's a fairly linear thought process when coming up with a plot or story but they can be developed in numerous ways by piggy-back riding on the current research in science (since there's quite a fair bit of groundbreaking stuff being done in several fields). That aside, I think your question might have more to do with circumstantial evidence such that it just so happened that all of those works you mentioned were related to science in one form or another. I would wager that similar level of work could be achieved in other genres but that's just a possibility waiting to happen. Where in Beatless do metamaterials get mentioned? Unless you're talking about the various red boxes that get shown/mentioned at the end but don't get described, but they're not described the way you say ("against predictions made using existing mathematical models", which doesn't quite make sense to me in a realistic way) -- nor the way Wikipedia explains the term "metamaterial", which is "a material engineered to have a property that is not found in naturally occurring materials". Beatless speculates about advanced AI, androids, and and the interaction between those things and humanity; I don't remember it speculating much about anything else. edit: are you maybe thinking of Lacia's cloaking ability (which I think is an electromagnetic signal) or Snowdrop's flowers? (Or maybe Saturnus's device, but that's not even shown in action in the anime.) |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| It has that potential to be groundbreaking but in my opinion this potential is exaggerated. There is plenty of thought provoking stuff in other genres. Someone already mentioned Shiki which is a horror anime and I can name some more off the top of my head including: - Fullmetal Alchemist, which debates the nature of mankind, racism and what "truth" really is. - Shingeki no Kyojin, but I believe the most thought provoking stuff in here is yet to come. - Shoujo Kakumei Utena, which if I have to believe the people who have seen it is almost like a feminist manifesto and, according to MAL's description, deals with Childhood idealism, illusions, ambition, adulthood, sexuality, abuse, incest and identity. - Aku no Hana, which deals with decadence. - NHK ni Youkoso, which deals with the concept of hikikomori as found in Japan. - Monogatari, which is postmodern criticism on otaku culture. And at the same time there are science-fiction anime which are about as thought provoking as a stereotypical ecchi. |
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holysauron said: in my opinion this potential is exaggerated. How is that possible? Is sci-fi somehow theoretically limited? I don't think so. holysauron said: There is plenty of thought provoking stuff in other genres. Totally agree. holysauron said: - Fullmetal Alchemist, which debates the nature of mankind, racism and what "truth" really is. - Shingeki no Kyojin, but I believe the most thought provoking stuff in here is yet to come. - Shoujo Kakumei Utena, which if I have to believe the people who have seen it is almost like a feminist manifesto and, according to MAL's description, deals with Childhood idealism, illusions, ambition, adulthood, sexuality, abuse, incest and identity. - Aku no Hana, which deals with decadence. - NHK ni Youkoso, which deals with the concept of hikikomori as found in Japan. - Monogatari, which is postmodern criticism on otaku culture. But you are focusing only on the observation of negative traits...how about future plans and creative optimism? And by the way tons of sci-fi titles are doing the same stuff characteristic for the titles you listed. holysauron said: And at the same time there are science-fiction anime which are about as thought provoking as a stereotypical ecchi. This is like saying "Sci-fi movies are dumb because...look at all the Transformers movies!". And you have some serious sci-fi in your list. I don't get your negative generalisation. Yes, there are many dumb shows but this is true about any genre - horror and fantasy including. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Where in Beatless do metamaterials get mentioned? Unless you're talking about the various red boxes that get shown/mentioned at the end but don't get described, but they're not described the way you say ("against predictions made using existing mathematical models", which doesn't quite make sense to me in a realistic way) -- nor the way Wikipedia explains the term "metamaterial", which is "a material engineered to have a property that is not found in naturally occurring materials". Beatless speculates about advanced AI, androids, and and the interaction between those things and humanity; I don't remember it speculating much about anything else. edit: are you maybe thinking of Lacia's cloaking ability (which I think is an electromagnetic signal) or Snowdrop's flowers? (Or maybe Saturnus's device, but that's not even shown in action in the anime.) The invisibility cloak of Lacia in Beatless I thought was said to work using metamaterials - Bending light around her or her and Arato to render them invisible to the naked eye. Isn't this how light-bending tech is theorized? Beatless came out in 2018 and there's only been more and more articles in scientific periodicals about this tech in the past 2-3 years. |
alshu said: holysauron said: in my opinion this potential is exaggerated. How is that possible? Is sci-fi somehow theoretically limited? I don't think so. No, what I meant is that people only seem to look at science fiction for doing this kind of stuff. I just need to learn how to proofread because right now I can see why you interpreted it like that. holysauron said: - Fullmetal Alchemist, which debates the nature of mankind, racism and what "truth" really is. - Shingeki no Kyojin, but I believe the most thought provoking stuff in here is yet to come. - Shoujo Kakumei Utena, which if I have to believe the people who have seen it is almost like a feminist manifesto and, according to MAL's description, deals with Childhood idealism, illusions, ambition, adulthood, sexuality, abuse, incest and identity. - Aku no Hana, which deals with decadence. - NHK ni Youkoso, which deals with the concept of hikikomori as found in Japan. - Monogatari, which is postmodern criticism on otaku culture. But you are focusing only on the observation of negative traits...how about future plans and creative optimism? And by the way tons of sci-fi titles are doing the same stuff characteristic for the titles you listed.[/quote] These were just the examples I could think of. I could have picked Aria for its themes of living in the moment and enjoying the small things in life if it wasn't a science fiction series itself. Also keep in mind that I haven't seen Utena and am just stating the things I have heard about it. I have no clue whether the story depicts these themes in a positive or a negative way. holysauron said: And at the same time there are science-fiction anime which are about as thought provoking as a stereotypical ecchi. This is like saying "Sci-fi movies are dumb because...look at all the Transformers movies!". And you have some serious sci-fi in your list. I don't get your negative generalisation. Yes, there are many dumb shows but this is true about any genre - horror and fantasy including. [/quote] You misunderstood. I didn't say anything about every sci-fi in existence because doing so would indeed neglect the stuff that is actually groundbreaking. There are quite a few brainless sci-fi works in the world and there will be more in the future but the same can be said about the ones which actually do provoke serious thought. We never actually disagreed on the entire subject matter. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: Technically, what we call "sci-fi" or "science fiction" is more accurately called "technological fiction" ("tech-fi"?). It's based on speculating upon the possibilities presented by our technology -- most typically outer space, robots, computers, transportation tech, and information tech. Rarely (maybe never?) have I seen a sci-fi series that is based on speculating about science without speculating about technology. Where in Beatless do metamaterials get mentioned? Unless you're talking about the various red boxes that get shown/mentioned at the end but don't get described, but they're not described the way you say ("against predictions made using existing mathematical models", which doesn't quite make sense to me in a realistic way) -- nor the way Wikipedia explains the term "metamaterial", which is "a material engineered to have a property that is not found in naturally occurring materials". Beatless speculates about advanced AI, androids, and and the interaction between those things and humanity; I don't remember it speculating much about anything else. edit: are you maybe thinking of Lacia's cloaking ability (which I think is an electromagnetic signal) or Snowdrop's flowers? (Or maybe Saturnus's device, but that's not even shown in action in the anime.) Yes, I was just referring to Lacia's cloaking ability as my example. If I recall well, she scatters these particles in the order of nanometers and they refract or bend visible light (which is an electromagnetic wave) to 'cloak' the user (which isn't possible for metamaterials under their present limitation of working with only microwave frequencies. Why it doesn't work for visible light, is largely related to the unrealistic set challenges it imposes when working with that order of wavelengths which is tied to the physical constraints and laws of dispersion). Yes, such things aren't naturally found if you felt I implied otherwise. The behaviour depends on the arrangement/structure instead of the inherent composition. I have had limited opportunities working with metamaterials but it had more to do with the acoustical properties of them. When I say the science isn't explained for these, I am referring to the lack of simple mathematical models used to predict it. At present, it is a series of arguably blind experiments and then attempting to explain why it is behaving that way, ofcourse, using standard models wherever possible as we need some foundation. It is more of a 'what happens if I do this now'. It is just how the science in emerging areas works as you may already know, encountering possibilities, developing new theories but also limitations along the way. Research in this field (atleast in acoustics) has been quite recent, starting from early to mid 2000s. Your definition of tech-fi seems quite reasonable in that aspect when you raise the clause of "sci-fi series that is based on speculating about science without speculating about technology", and I had not considered that angle in my original post. Maybe Mahouka would fit the bill of 'sci-fi' here because it considers the discovery of an imaginary particle with extraordinary properties, and uses it in an attempt to explain how 'magic' works in that world. If I understood what you meant to say about 'speculating about science' that is. Perhaps Steins;Gate could fall under that category as well, since it managed to achieve some form of time-travel using just microwaves and a phone to trigger the Hadron collider to do something, to what they described as generation of wormholes. Something or the other happens which is testing my suspension of disbelief and Kurisu says she has figured out the science behind how time travel works. |
KreatorXOct 27, 2019 10:59 PM
holysauron said: I can see why you interpreted it like that. So you mainly wanted to say that it has great potential but very few authors are using it to full extent? I agree on that. Even highly praised show like Gunbuster which uses hardcore sci-fi concepts like time dilation and worm wormholes properly is applying them to a plot which is mainly melodrama. I was really disappointed that "heavy artillery" like that (+ beautiful visuals) is practically used to kill a mosquito. |
KreatorX said: Re Lacia's cloaking: ah I see.GlennMagusHarvey said: Technically, what we call "sci-fi" or "science fiction" is more accurately called "technological fiction" ("tech-fi"?). It's based on speculating upon the possibilities presented by our technology -- most typically outer space, robots, computers, transportation tech, and information tech. Rarely (maybe never?) have I seen a sci-fi series that is based on speculating about science without speculating about technology. Where in Beatless do metamaterials get mentioned? Unless you're talking about the various red boxes that get shown/mentioned at the end but don't get described, but they're not described the way you say ("against predictions made using existing mathematical models", which doesn't quite make sense to me in a realistic way) -- nor the way Wikipedia explains the term "metamaterial", which is "a material engineered to have a property that is not found in naturally occurring materials". Beatless speculates about advanced AI, androids, and and the interaction between those things and humanity; I don't remember it speculating much about anything else. edit: are you maybe thinking of Lacia's cloaking ability (which I think is an electromagnetic signal) or Snowdrop's flowers? (Or maybe Saturnus's device, but that's not even shown in action in the anime.) Yes, I was just referring to Lacia's cloaking ability as my example. If I recall well, she scatters these particles in the order of nanometers and they refract or bend visible light (which is an electromagnetic wave) to 'cloak' the user (which isn't possible for metamaterials under their present limitation of working with only microwave frequencies. Why it doesn't work for visible light, is largely related to the unrealistic set challenges it imposes when working with that order of wavelengths which is tied to the physical constraints and laws of dispersion). Yes, such things aren't naturally found if you felt I implied otherwise. The behaviour depends on the arrangement/structure instead of the inherent composition. I have had limited opportunities working with metamaterials but it had more to do with the acoustical properties of them. When I say the science isn't explained for these, I am referring to the lack of simple mathematical models used to predict it. At present, it is a series of arguably blind experiments and then attempting to explain why it is behaving that way, ofcourse, using standard models wherever possible as we need some foundation. It is more of a 'what happens if I do this now'. It is just how the science in emerging areas works as you may already know, encountering possibilities, developing new theories but also limitations along the way. Research in this field (atleast in acoustics) has been quite recent, starting from early to mid 2000s. Your definition of tech-fi seems quite reasonable in that aspect when you raise the clause of "sci-fi series that is based on speculating about science without speculating about technology", and I had not considered that angle in my original post. Maybe Mahouka would fit the bill of 'sci-fi' here because it considers the discovery of an imaginary particle with extraordinary properties, and uses it in an attempt to explain how 'magic' works in that world. If I understood what you meant to say about 'speculating about science' that is. Perhaps Steins;Gate could fall under that category as well, since it managed to achieve some form of time-travel using just microwaves and a phone to trigger the Hadron collider to do something, to what they described as generation of wormholes. Something or the other happens which is testing my suspension of disbelief and Kurisu says she has figured out the science behind how time travel works. Re tech-fi vs. "non-tech-fi sci-fi" -- I was thinking of something along the lines of "what if the K-T extinction event didn't happen and the dinosaurs never died out but a species of dinosaur evolved human-level intelligence along with front-limb tool-use capabilties", for example. I think stuff that speculates about consequences of climate change (either as a backdrop or as a main premise detail) might count along these lines too. (That said, I haven't watched Tide-Line Blue yet, though, and I know Run=Dim also involves space tech, so...) |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| All of the titles you listed in the OP are wildly different from one another and in some circumstances aren't even science fiction. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is a space opera, and Ergo Proxy isn't science fiction; it's psychological thriller with an apocalyptic backdrop. And while Serial Experiments Lain holds up astonishingly well today and was prescient for its time, Texhnolyze is by no means groundbreaking; it just captures a concept and executes extremely well. |
| fantasy is a bunch of magic and then sci-fi is a bunch of magic, pretending to be science. so id say fantasy and sci-fi are largely the same thing and are thus capable of exploring the same themes and ideas. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
Yudina said: All of the titles you listed in the OP are wildly different from one another and in some circumstances aren't even science fiction. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is a space opera, and Ergo Proxy isn't science fiction; it's psychological thriller with an apocalyptic backdrop. And while Serial Experiments Lain holds up astonishingly well today and was prescient for its time, Texhnolyze is by no means groundbreaking; it just captures a concept and executes extremely well. They're all science fiction to some degree or another. Space opera is a subset of science fiction; not something mutually exclusive from it. Star Wars is a space opera. No one would say it isn't science fiction. And Ergo Proxy focuses on a post-apocalyptic scenario of ecological devastation, manufacturing of humans, , androids gaining sentience, genetic engineering, etc. It's heavily sci-fi. That doesn't mean it's also not thriller or psychological; you can attribute more than one genre to most works. I don't see how them being wildly different from one another is relevant however. That's kind of the point. They're shows wildly different in tone and presentation, content, etc., but shows the diversity of the Sci-Fi genre at taking a very elaborate and thoughtful look at a lot of different subjects. |
WatchTillTandava said: Yudina said: All of the titles you listed in the OP are wildly different from one another and in some circumstances aren't even science fiction. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is a space opera, and Ergo Proxy isn't science fiction; it's psychological thriller with an apocalyptic backdrop. And while Serial Experiments Lain holds up astonishingly well today and was prescient for its time, Texhnolyze is by no means groundbreaking; it just captures a concept and executes extremely well. They're all science fiction to some degree or another. Space opera is a subset of science fiction; not something mutually exclusive from it. Star Wars is a space opera. No one would say it isn't science fiction. I actually know quite a few people who do not consider Star Wars science fiction, including myself and some popular film critics on youtube. It's really more fantasy set in space. Just sayin'. It's not that rare of an opinion. Along the same lines I also don't really consider LOGH to be sci-fi. Science doesn't really play a role in either of those. I think in that regard MAL differntiating between 'sci-fi' as a genre and 'space' as a setting in their tag system makes sense. The two can and often do overlap, but they definitely don't have to. Being set in space does not automatically make something sci-fi. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: Thee term I've heard for that is "science fantasy", if I recall correctly.WatchTillTandava said: They're all science fiction to some degree or another. Space opera is a subset of science fiction; not something mutually exclusive from it. Star Wars is a space opera. No one would say it isn't science fiction. I actually know quite a few people who do not consider Star Wars science fiction, including myself and some popular film critics on youtube. It's really more fantasy set in space. Just sayin'. It's not that rare of an opinion. Along the same lines I also don't really consider LOGH to be sci-fi. Science doesn't really play a role in either of those. I think in that regard MAL differntiating between 'sci-fi' as a genre and 'space' as a setting in their tag system makes sense. The two can and often do overlap, but they definitely don't have to. Being set in space does not automatically make something sci-fi. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Pullman said: Thee term I've heard for that is "science fantasy", if I recall correctly.I actually know quite a few people who do not consider Star Wars science fiction, including myself and some popular film critics on youtube. It's really more fantasy set in space. Just sayin'. It's not that rare of an opinion. Along the same lines I also don't really consider LOGH to be sci-fi. Science doesn't really play a role in either of those. I think in that regard MAL differntiating between 'sci-fi' as a genre and 'space' as a setting in their tag system makes sense. The two can and often do overlap, but they definitely don't have to. Being set in space does not automatically make something sci-fi. I haven't heard that term before tbh. I only heard something like 'space fantasy' or, well, 'space opera' to refer to such shows. But I don't think there is an 'official' term. There are also actual sci-fi/fantasy hybrids like Shinsekai Yori. Science fantasy seems more appropriate for those because as I said the point of Star Wars or LOGH not being sci-fi is that they aren't about science so it would make no sense to me to leave the 'science' part of sci-fi in the definition. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Actually I think "science fantasy" seems appropriate for those cases like... KreatorX said: Maybe Mahouka would fit the bill of 'sci-fi' here because it considers the discovery of an imaginary particle with extraordinary properties, and uses it in an attempt to explain how 'magic' works in that world. Meanwhile "space opera" seems rather specific, as it seems to imply a certain melodramatic quality -- and also specify the setting. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I don't think it's necessarily the most groundbreaking genre, but it is my favorite because I like seeing how other people interpret and portray our technological advancements as a species. I think in that respect it requires a lot of creativity. |
WatchTillTandava said: It's not science fiction.Star Wars is a space opera. No one would say it isn't science fiction. WatchTillTandava said: It's definitely not heavily sci-fi. Not saying you can't have multiple genres, but Ergo Proxy deliberately misleads its audience into thinking it's science fiction when it is vastly concerned with something else entirely. If it is science fiction, it's science fiction in the same way that Pokemon is ostensibly science fiction, i.e. traveling the world acquiring biological samples of new species of fauna that evolve. You can certainly argue that it is, but that would be missing the point.And Ergo Proxy focuses on a post-apocalyptic scenario of ecological devastation, manufacturing of humans, , androids gaining sentience, genetic engineering, etc. It's heavily sci-fi. That doesn't mean it's also not thriller or psychological; you can attribute more than one genre to most works. WatchTillTandava said: The point is your starting line is all over the place, especially when none of the titles are strictly speaking groundbreaking or revolutionary. When we think of revolutionary science fiction, we don't look at something like Evangelion, it's largely revolutionary for completely different reasons. Don't get me wrong about these shows; they're all quite good, and Lain is unique in that respect, but to list Texhnolyze next to it for instance is almost cheating considering it's the same writer, and it's clear he just has talent.I don't see how them being wildly different from one another is relevant however. That's kind of the point. They're shows wildly different in tone and presentation, content, etc., but shows the diversity of the Sci-Fi genre at taking a very elaborate and thoughtful look at a lot of different subjects. These comparisons on a genre level are silly to begin with. I could presumably start a thread stating Revolutionary Girl Utena, Uchouten Kazoku, Paranoid Agent, Mononoke, and Angel's Egg prove that fantasy titles are groundbreaking and thought provoking titles and therefore prove the superiority of fantasy, but then I'd have to contend with the counter argument that Ghost in the Shell, Planetes, Texhnolyze, and Casshern Sins exist. To that end, there's really not much I can say. Science fiction and fantasy are often inextricably linked, I don't know what's the purpose of really segmenting them when certain titles are closely related and often interchangeable given the circumstances. |
YudinaOct 28, 2019 3:41 PM
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