What Is The Most Stupid "Argument" you have Heard in an Anime Site?

InkSpider said:


I'm not sure I really understand your distinction. I'd also like you to explain a little further your examples of objectified men.

Are you referring merely to men being portrayed as sexy? Guys like Kamina in TTGL, or all the topless guys in Hajime no Ippo? Merely portraying a character as sexy is not objectification. Objectification is when a character's intended sexual appeal completely overshadows everything else about them. Go watch say, Makken-ki! and try to tell me a single character trait displayed by any of the female characters that is not part of some fetishistic archetype.

They're not people. They're not even developed characters. They're jiggly cliches who only exist to appeal sexually to men. The same could be said for most female characters in the harem genre. Even if there are objectified men in anime, that doesn't mean the objectification of women is okay. The objectification of either gender is terrible. It's simply that one gender experiences it far more frequently than the other.

jal90 said:

This irony of complaining about stupid arguments with an even more stupid argument is so lovely and wholesome omg

LoneWolf said:


Aww is someone butthurt, because I criticized their favorite genre? How about a fucking argument instead of just mindlessly labeling anything you disagree with as "stupid"; or are you one of those people that think these tropes/genres are beyond criticism?

jal90 said:

Butthurt? I said it's lovely and wholesome.

A fucking argument? Like the one you made about being interested in the little girls?

Do I think that tropes/genres are beyond criticism? You are a walking trope and I'm criticizing you.

LoneWolf said:


Oh so you're just throwing around baseless personal attacks, because you have no fucking arguments and you don't like it when I call people like you out for being grown ass men obsessed with little girls? K got it.

jal90 said:

You called me butthurt and now you are implying that I'm a pedophile, call me again when you are ready to debate like an adult person and we'll talk then. Good night!

LoneWolf said:
I only did this based on evidence that you provided, you replied to my post and called it stupid and and you called me a "walking trope" because you were clearly offended/butthurt. if you were not there would be no need to reply to me or use such aggressive language.

LoneWolf said:
I will fully admit too, that I was offended that you made a personal attacks against me without any evidence.

LoneWolf said:
I said you were obsessed with little girls, because of the prevalence of these characters in slice of life and moe anime, also you have them as your profile pics/avatars and favorites.

jal90 said:
According to my favorites and under this same logic, I am sexually attracted to:

-Little girls
-Teenage girls
-Teenage boys
-Adult women
-Adult men

And better not talk about my expanded list, because there are a few animals there.

You don't have to prove anything to anybody. The list says "Favorite characters", not "Waifus", not "Characters I fap to regularly". If people can't understand that, it's their problem. And yes, Nanachi is a great character.

LoneWolf said:
I'm not taking things out of context and I'm not criticizing you or your hobbies without any evidence and I in no way suggested that you had a sexual attraction to children, but rather that you have an unhealthy obsession with them considering your age and gender.

jal90 said:

Evidence that I provided.

I call an argument stupid =/= I'm personally offended by the argument

Look, I just said that the argument is stupid. It seems you are the one who got offended here from your reaction.

I called you a walking trope because that's what you are. The kind that always associates slice of life and moe to pedophilic tendencies. Yes, you are not original. Your "argument" here is actually tired, nonsensical and worthy of being mentioned in every page of this thread. Therefore me calling you a walking trope.


I don't think I went further than what your own post let me know about you, you are probably a wonderful real life person, but in this thread you are the jerk that calls me pedo for liking SoL and moe.


I am going to be kind and provide an explanation instead of just laughing at your face for what you just said.

One, I like slice of life because it resonates to me. Because I like to watch routine storylines, I like the intimistic approach and I like the lack of goal or plot driven development. I like feeling empathy for little moments, I like the relevance of the irrelevant and I enjoy character dynamics in their environment. Most fiction is event-driven and based on some sort of build-up, and slice of life is a refreshing and welcome change of pace.

Two, on my favorites:


Three, my avatars and profile pics are based on:
1) Liking the character
2) Liking the expression of the character
3) Liking the aesthetics
4) Liking the mood it creates and how it combines with my posts/profile

If you can only think in terms of sexual or whatever unhealthy obsession the problem is not mine.


May I ask how can this so-called obsession be unhealthy if it's not of a sexual kind?

jal90 said:
I love how you deny that you are referring to sexual relationships and still bring it here:
"because of the societal stigma that is attached to relationships between adult men and females under 18 in modern society."

You are hilarious, @LoneWolf. Keep entertaining me.

Also you are a little confused here, just because you bold the word opinion doesn't make that "opinion" of yours less bullshit.

LoneWolf said:


You're literally just doing the same thing and trying to make this about sexual relationships when I've repeatedly told you that isn't what I'm arguing about...

You say my opinion is bullshit, yet I go out of my way to prove that there is significant social stigma against men that are even in the vicinity of children, let alone men that have an affinity for or want any sort of relationship with them (doesn't have to be sexual)

Honestly you're just digging the hole deeper for yourself at this point, I'm done responding.

Kruszer said:
"I haven't seen it but...*proceeds to trash it despite not knowing what the fuck they're talking about*"

LoneWolf said:
@jal90 First of all I already refuted your "pedophilic tendencies" argument. No one here is accusing people of touching kids, you also ramble on about your "sexual attractions" on your favorites list, when I never made any mention of sexual attraction. I'm actively trying to avoid talk of pedophilia, but you can't seem to stop mentioning sexual attraction and children.

You seem to unable to understand what I'm saying and you're clearly strawmanning in a vain attempt at demeaning me. I'm saying the common factor between moe and slice of life is that they both have a distinct focus on and prevalence of little girl characters, this includes toddlers, children and teenagers and it is my opinion that people that who take an exceptional liking to these genres and types of characters have an unhealthy obsession.

Why do I have this opinion? I believe unhealthy obsessions are things that can be either harmful to yourself or other people. Now giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not going around molesting or jerking off to kids; even though you love to bring that up. I feel like this sort of thing can be unhealthy to oneself, because of the societal stigma that is attached to relationships between adult men and females under 18 in modern society.

There are quite a few cases of male passengers having to move seats, because they were seated next to children or LA wanting to ban single men in playgrounds. I feel that on a societal scale any sort of relationship or affinity towards children and especially young female by an older male will be perceived negatively and lead to stigma and shame towards that individual so I believe having such an affinity in your case would be harmful against yourself because of the social stigma that it carries. You might not agree, but thats my opinion and based on the evidence from these articles I feel like I substantiated it.

@Botan-Chan45 You know whats an unhealthy obsession? Randomly jumping into other people's arguments and blatantly misconstruing their points, because you're too lazy to read through the whole thing; but you want to jump on the bandwagon and actually accuse someone of "sexualizing" (you don't specifically say what, but I'm assuming little girls). Then go on to say its okay to fap to your favorite characters... *checks favorites*.

Well thanks for admitting that you fap cartoons of underage girls... I really fucking needed to know that information. Like honestly what was the point of you butting in and accusing me of "sexualizing"? Where is your fucking proof? Tell me how the fuck you came to this retarded conclusion?

Botan-Chan45 said:
Ahh yes the "where did you conclude this." First you say SoL and Moe fans are sexualizing characters from the contexts you put out. @jal90 already pointed out where you typed this. You swear that you don't do this, but Jal already pointed out where you typed it. Second, the articles you used are retarded. Your comparing fictional characters to real children(shitheads). I don't even need to explain this. Third, most of the time, it's you typing that these fans only watch because of the little girls(really). Seems to me you can't even watch SoL and Moe because you can't help but sexualize the "little girls." Why? Because your implying that yourself. TBH you really only embarrassed yourself in the last paragraph. Lol My last sentence was everybody faps to their favorite characters.(Don't lie) Though you interpreted it as," oh he watch loli hentai, he have no argument." You only took offense to me since I typed out that you yourself sexualizes the characters and not us. plus we all know you fap to it so come out of the closet.(also fictional characters aren't real if you need some clarification. So it's okay to fap to them if you want. Loli or milf.)

LoneWolf said:


Smh, so pretty much just taking my argument and throwing it out the window and pretending like I'm accusing people of being pedophiles when I've said multiple times thats not what I'm saying, based on something that I already refuted...

You say articles are BS, but the whole point was to point out social stigma and it doesn't matter to most people in society if the children are real or fake; the stigma is still there. I personally think fictional characters shouldn't be counted, for example child-like sex dolls are banned in most western countries. Now these are not real children, but they are still illegal still stigmatized... I don't think you understand how social stigma works. It doesn't have to be real; its based on perception. Also it doesn't even have to be in the real world hentai depicting minors is ILLEGAL in many countries Needless to say if something is illegal it's stigmatized and strong affinity for fictional underage female characters is no doubt something that carries stigma based on our societal standards.

Of course if you're just fapping to random cartoons or hentai its fine (just don't read/watch loli hentai if you're in any of those countries). Although I didn't need to know that and no I don't fap to any of my favorites... if you haven't noticed they're all male lol. I don't fap to cartoons in general. (I have seen some hentai for lulz though; they have hilarious dubs).

Also who said I don't watch SoL or moe anime? I've seen plenty, look at my list. The reason I don't like these anime is because they are boring (just showing everyday life events) and the main characters and usually little Japanese girls who I can't relate to in any way, because I'm not a girl, I'm not a child and I'm not Japanese. I can't even sexualize the characters if I wanted, because I'm not attracted to underage girls. If I wanted to watch anime that sexualized characters I'd just watch ecchi or hentai.

Botan-Chan45 said:
Why do you keep on saying you don't accuse Sol and Moe fans of peaodophilia when all your comments imply it. Seriously look at it with a clear mind and not one a clouded one. Your second point about social stigma improved a bit but one of your acticles didn't work so there's that. Then you say you dislike Sol of life for showing slices of life aspects. Oh man that's like saying you dislike action because it displays action. Then you say that they mostly feature little girls(teenage or high schoolers are more correct) who are also Japanese as a reason not to relate. But you can relate to Guts and other male leads right? Well it's short for you. Heh Edit: Took the time to read one and can conclude that even loli hentai is allowed since it's not realistic and therefore can't be illegal. Seems like the United States, Sweden, Netherlands, and probably many other don't even enforce the laws at all.

Imaishi said:
@LoneWolf
Of course people are going to be 'offended and butthurt' with what you're saying, if from the very first post you accuse them of having an 'unhealthy obsession'. There were negative implications from the beginning, it's you who started baseless labeling and then somehow accuse the guy of a 'pesonal attack', when he calls a stupid 'argument' stupid. There was no room for neutral and impersonal conversation. You need not to explicitly state 'you're a pedophile', because being vague is more than enough. You, either on purpose, or because you're just a jerk, drive the discussion this way. You take 'liking moe shows' and make it 'liking little girls', then name it a strong, usually negative, word 'obsession' and label it unhealthy, on no real basis, because these articles have nothing to do with the matter. That's not how you discuss things. It's just being a provoking ass.

As much as I dislike moe and slice of life, and find them horribly boring, it's not possible to take your side.

LoneWolf said:
How am I the one being provoking here? Am I lying or making something up when I say that the common factor between moe and slice of life shows is that they are mostly made up of a cast of little girls? Honestly the whole discussion has just been people trying to bait me into calling them a pedo. I'm sorry, but I'm not taking your bait.

Burger-Meister said:
Also is "it looks good so the show is good"/"pretty colors" really an argument that's used? Even for shows like Zestiria the X (which is a show I guess you could apply it to because the looks of it was one of the better things about it) I never saw people use that argument to defend it.

Botan-Chan45 said:
lol you used Hajime no Ippo, a sports series about boxing, as some type of dumb example. Lol I'm talking about males that are mostly found in Fujoshi type shit. Then you say that harem cliche women aren't developed. No shit! Who would've guessed that a cliche story wouldn't have any development with cliche elements. The same argument can be used jn every genre for fujo bait where a reverse harem is made up of tall and slim guys there only for girls to water over. This is the point I realized that I'm being moral about something I thought is retarded. And It's still retarded.

InkSpider said:


Look, can we just drop all the hostility, insults and hyper-defensiveness? I’m not angry, and I don’t dislike you. I’m not attacking you. As fun as it is to mock people on the internet, it has never changed anyone’s mind, and I’ve honestly had my fill of e-squabbling for a while. Let’s just talk this out, okay?
I chose Hajime no Ippo as an example because it has not only topless guys, but a lot of male nudity (barely censored) and homoerotic undertones that could be construed as fanservice aimed at female viewers. However, while plenty of the characters are portrayed sexually, they are also all fully developed characters with own ambitions, motivations and personalities, and thus, are not objectified. How the series handles sexual harassment is rather problematic, but that’s a topic for another day…

I have already said that male objectification is harmful. Men being objectified in anime does not make the objectification of girls and women somehow okay. If you someone crashes into your car while you’re parked, the damage they’ve done to their own car does not fix the damage they’ve done to yours. The ‘male objectification’ argument has never held water or served as a valid counter to feminist perspectives.

That said, it should be obvious that male objectification is nowhere near as common in anime as female objectification. You claim that ‘fujioshi bait’ (you mean, yaoi?) and reverse-harem series are as bad as harem series about objectification, but consider series like Ouran High School Host Club and Yuri on Ice. Ouran’s men are certainly intended to be beautiful, but they are also psychologically complex, some of them deeply haunted by familial pressures and other forces outside the context of their relationship with the heroine. The beauty of Ouran’s ‘harem’ is that they while they appear to be cliches, they are in fact fresh new subversions. The writers do not pander to fetishistic archetypes, but play with familiar archetypes in funny, interesting new ways. Even Mori, perhaps the least developed member of the cast, has feelings beneath his stoic mask, feelings that are not defined solely by the main character. I’m not saying that this kind of depth of character of writing could not exist in harem series, but I have yet to see anything close what Ouran did done with reverse genders. Likewise, the men of anime like Free and Yuri on Ice are not merely attractive, they are driven by personal ambitions and undergo character development.

…And before you say that Keijo does the same thing, most feminist critics I’ve encountered online actually like Keijo. Turns out that despite what memes and tumblr would have you believe, feminists are capable of diversity of thought, just like everyone else.

Turtles_Hunter said:
Not the exact phrase, but "being attracted to little girls is ok since they are not real".

Imaishi said:


Unless your list is another 'I have seen tons of others but haven't added to list for some stupid reason', I don't think you have nearly enough experience with harem to claim anything about 'most female characters in harem', and make other general statements like that.
Comparing one of the most beloved shoujo like Ouran with the criticized travesty Maken-ki is, doesn't mean much, because they're both outliers. There are tons of harems that do actually care for and develop their characters, even if they are heavy on the nudity side of things. Just like there are tons of garbage shoujo that feature nothing but boring archetypes, very often with 'rapey' male leads.

There's obviously more stuff targetted at men, but I don't think average quality of characterization is any worse in these. Women might be more often sexualized, but I personally can't think of a single reason why would that be wrong, as that doesn't make characters bad. It's lack of effort to do anything else that's harming.

Burger-Meister said:

Also is "it looks good so the show is good"/"pretty colors" really an argument that's used? Even for shows like Zestiria the X (which is a show I guess you could apply it to because the looks of it was one of the better things about it) I never saw people use that argument to defend it.

Clebardman said:
@jal90 I think "pretty colors" in the not-so-serious opposite of the pretty common "the colors are dull/washed out/it's old/I-forgot-my-screen's-contrast-was-at-0-but-I'll-blame-the-show"

Turtles_Hunter said:
Not the exact phrase, but "being attracted to little girls is ok since they are not real".

The_Missing_Link said:
"You haven't read the source material, so your opinion doesn't count" -fucking fate fans

Since when do you have to read the source material to judge an adaptation? That's just stupid. I don't need to read Lord of the Rings to know the movies are great (though I did anyway BECAUSE I LIKED THE MOVIES ENOUGH TO SEEK IT OUT). I don't need to read the book to know Twilight is a shit movie series. Why would I have to read the VN to know the fate anime suck?

InkSpider said:


Look, can we just drop all the hostility, insults and hyper-defensiveness? I’m not angry, and I don’t dislike you. I’m not attacking you. As fun as it is to mock people on the internet, it has never changed anyone’s mind, and I’ve honestly had my fill of e-squabbling for a while. Let’s just talk this out, okay?
I chose Hajime no Ippo as an example because it has not only topless guys, but a lot of male nudity (barely censored) and homoerotic undertones that could be construed as fanservice aimed at female viewers. However, while plenty of the characters are portrayed sexually, they are also all fully developed characters with own ambitions, motivations and personalities, and thus, are not objectified. How the series handles sexual harassment is rather problematic, but that’s a topic for another day…

I have already said that male objectification is harmful. Men being objectified in anime does not make the objectification of girls and women somehow okay. If you someone crashes into your car while you’re parked, the damage they’ve done to their own car does not fix the damage they’ve done to yours. The ‘male objectification’ argument has never held water or served as a valid counter to feminist perspectives.

That said, it should be obvious that male objectification is nowhere near as common in anime as female objectification. You claim that ‘fujioshi bait’ (you mean, yaoi?) and reverse-harem series are as bad as harem series about objectification, but consider series like Ouran High School Host Club and Yuri on Ice. Ouran’s men are certainly intended to be beautiful, but they are also psychologically complex, some of them deeply haunted by familial pressures and other forces outside the context of their relationship with the heroine. The beauty of Ouran’s ‘harem’ is that they while they appear to be cliches, they are in fact fresh new subversions. The writers do not pander to fetishistic archetypes, but play with familiar archetypes in funny, interesting new ways. Even Mori, perhaps the least developed member of the cast, has feelings beneath his stoic mask, feelings that are not defined solely by the main character. I’m not saying that this kind of depth of character of writing could not exist in harem series, but I have yet to see anything close what Ouran did done with reverse genders. Likewise, the men of anime like Free and Yuri on Ice are not merely attractive, they are driven by personal ambitions and undergo character development.

…And before you say that Keijo does the same thing, most feminist critics I’ve encountered online actually like Keijo. Turns out that despite what memes and tumblr would have you believe, feminists are capable of diversity of thought, just like everyone else.

Botan-Chan45 said:
I wasn't hostile though. This is how I type. But the only thing I can say was a good point was Ouran since I've watched it, but haven't seen Yuri on Ice. That being said, male objectification is nowhere near close? Lol comedy gold. (Short Response)

InkSpider said:


Love Hina, Makken-ki!, Rosario + Vampire, Shuffle! and Infinite Stratos isn't enough? If you're merely going by harem I have finished, than sure, it'll look like I have no experience with the genre, but the reason I don't watch more harem series is because every harem series I have seen (aside from Ouran) has been pretty terrible. Sure, you can accuse me of criticizing a genre I have not watched a ton of, but if I watched a ton of harem, wouldn't you just criticize me for going out of my way to look for something to hate instead of watching things I actually enjoy?

I chose Makken-ki! because it's one of the most extreme examples I've seen, but I could just as easily have name Infinite Stratos.

I happily agree that it is the lack of effort in terms of characterization that is harmful, not sexuality itself, both in terms of representation and story-telling quality. If you believe you've found a harem series that actually does well with characterization than please, give me a recommendation! I'd honestly like to see that. :)