| Well Vegans I think are just full of themselves.... the eat food which is also a food for animals and are they dumb don't they know how much forestry and natural animal habitats have been ruined to grow vegetables.... They are not different by meat lovers... |
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| 1. but unfortunately for the aspiring "preachy" vegan, the word "murder" means a "premeditated taking of life of a human being" again key words being "OF A HUMAN BEING". so thus if i eat meat and i kill a chicken lets say, conversely I am not a murderer because i killed a chicken and a chicken is obviously not a human. Same thing with Dogs, Cows, pigs, or sharks. just because i kill them doesnt make me a murderer. sure i can be a killer, but not neccesarily a murderer. 2. if we can survive without eating animals then we can surely survive without eating plants. That arguement is flawed simply because we dont need to eat plants to survive. You want to eat plants instead of meat, and I want to eat meat instead of plants. We will both survive. So saying "we dont need to eat meat to survive" is basically flawed. 3. Vegans act as if there is something inherently wrong with torturing, killing and eating animals. Its not. the simple truth is that an animal is not a human. Sorry. which means if anyone wants to eat meat they have the damn right to eat it without vegans calling them murderers, torturers, and the like. Human rights are rights given to them by humans, they are solely for humans and there is no need to extend them to other animals. humans and animals are inherently different. 4. teeth is not a good indicator of what we "have" to eat. We have incisors which are made for tearing and cutting meat. we have other flat teeth made for grinding plant matter. teeth is not a good arguement that humans are "made to" eat plants. Thus what we are made to eat, and what we want to eat are two different things. They have no bearing on our moral compasses, nor do they mean that one is evil while the other is not. not only that it could be argued that our teeth evolved because of meat consumption, since meat is much easier to chew and digest as compared to root, nut, and plant fiber/matter. 5. This is not a justification of whether or not omnivores are superior to vegans, nor is it a justification that vegans are superior to meat eaters. just to clear that up. What this is then, is my take on some of the arguements that vegans throw at meat eaters/omnivores about their "disgusting lifestyle". |
Pewdie said: fap |
| The problem is we must eat something to survive, it's impossible for us doesn't hurt a living creature for this, after all in the nature there isn't morality, it's simple a vicious circle, for the nature isn't important if an animal eat another animal or plant, count only the balance, for this the human morality is easy to contradict, because doesn't work good with the nature's laws. The only real solution probably it's the artificial creation of food, for example it has already been created the first artificial hamburger, but for the big productions we still need much time |
HaanFrost said: Jeez we have to take a lot of things into consideration . Vegans don't eat plants but a part of it , in its absence plants and trees still live on . I had a mango tree in my garden and it bore fruit every year . Plant bear food towards the end of their life cycle . We get the food from them and use the part of it to regrow . Flesh eaters are as much important as vegans . This maintains a Ballance in nature . And plants are also living organisms . What we eat becomes part of us . I will rather drink and share the milk of cow than kill it for meat . Going by Janist fruitarian logic vegetables are alive but fruits are just biproducts and can be harvested after they fall on their own so no living being is harmed. But a vegetable you have to kill to harvest it. |
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astrozombie84 said: shotz said: there would be no need to kill them if people didn't breed them in the first place. you think dairy cows breed their whole lives as a choice? they are artificially inseminated ie. raped so they'll keep lactating. some guy literally shoves his hand with a cow-spunk glove up its vag. You are mostly right....but you got one thing wrong. Cows don't need to constantly be prego in order to produce milk...They only have to be pregnant once. As long as you keep stimulating lactation then they will keep producing milk. That applies to all mammals. Even humans are that way...there are stories of women that breast feed children for a very long time....were talking 6 year olds...which is pretty creepy. Yet you are drinking the breast milk of another animal and i'm sure that you are older then 6 years. |
traed said: Going by Janist fruitarian logic vegetables are alive but fruits are just biproducts and can be harvested after they fall on their own so no living being is harmed. But a vegetable you have to kill to harvest it. Yeah, they also filter their drinking water so they don't accidentally eat small bugs and whatnot. I still don't know how they reconcile their auto immune system being a veritable force of slaughter and not following their orders though. I am sure they can set up bilateral meetings on behalf of the invading organisms and their cells. Come back you little shit! Stop being so tasty! |
SoverignApr 12, 2017 1:24 PM
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ChannelOrange said: So, I'm vegan. 99% of the reason I'm vegan is for health reasons. It's actually healthier to have certain meats in your diet along with a good intake of fruits and vegetables. Why some studies say vegitarian or vegan is healthier is from lack of quality control and because vegetarians try to eat healthier foods. |
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AxBattler said: astrozombie84 said: Survival of the fittest is the other way. As in animals with positive traits are more likely to survive...and they breed with other animals with positive traits. They go hand in hand. Mutation results in a new traits which may be beneficial, detrimental, or have little impact to one's survival. Whether they are beneficial (helps with the species survival) or not gets tested by nature ("survival of the fittest" - though it is a little different in humans as advance in technology can sometime prolong the lifespan of people who might otherwise not survive in ancient time). And while we may be inclined to focus/be concerned with malignant mutations, often because they physical deformation are easy to spot, others, such as increased resistance to malaria, while not as flashy as a comic book power, may be very relevant to certain parts of the world. Cold virus mutate at a rate roughly 100,000 times faster than we do. Now I am not sure what is the percentage resulting in failure (certainly not enough to cause it's own extinction), but if not for those mutations, we would probably be able to deal with them far more easily. I acknowledge that it is probably unfair to compare a simple organism to a complex organism. But I do think that mutation is there to improve the survivability of a species against new threats that are able to target the rest of the species.. at the cost of those that are detrimental (but can be isolated via natural selections). Yes they go hand in hand....but its not the same thing. Also you wont see the results of the mutation in patient zero anyways...as the mutation is only stored in some of their cells....and if the mutation isn't stored in sperm or eggs cells...then the mutation wont get passed on anyways. My point is that while mutations contribute to evolution....even accelerates evolution...provided its a good mutation. However mutation isn't the primary driving force behind evolution. Effulgence said: astrozombie84 said: You are mostly right....but you got one thing wrong. Cows don't need to constantly be prego in order to produce milk...They only have to be pregnant once. As long as you keep stimulating lactation then they will keep producing milk. That applies to all mammals. Even humans are that way...there are stories of women that breast feed children for a very long time....were talking 6 year olds...which is pretty creepy. Yet you are drinking the breast milk of another animal and i'm sure that you are older then 6 years. Seriously dude? Its not creepy because people drink breast milk....its creepy because they are sucking on their moms boob. I guess they could drink it out of a cup...but it still came out of their moms boob. Also they probably wouldn't be drinking it out of a cup anyways. If a mom breast feeds their child for that long then they are addicted to nursing for whatever reason. Seriously though how in the fuck did that go over your head? |
kikyo1hinamora said: the poin the point of this argument is to tell you that your cause to not eat meat because animal feel pain is just a stupid argument since you also eat plant witch also feel pain so everything you sad was shit and yes we eat meat because it is delicious but also because eating only plants isn't good and you know when i see animals being murdered in a cruel way i do react like any other meat eater at least most of them and there are difference between killing an animal in cruel way and to a pointless cause like for fun and killing animals in a more humanitarian way and fo a purpose like being eaten witch is the cause why most animals or at least half of them exist in the first place and why does the fish exist if it is not to be eaten That argument doesn't prove that plants feel pain though, only that they can respond to stimulation by producing electrical signals. They even said in the video that plants don't have nerves, so how the hell are they supposed to feel pain like an animal can? Science proves that eating only plants is perfectly healthy when done correctly. The key is to eat a variety to balance your amino acids, and eat plants with high protein contents like nuts, legumes, seeds, and broccoli. As for your other point, you can't see the purpose of another life other than to die and satisfy your desire for flesh? That sounds incredibly selfish and messed up. |
sobanoodleApr 12, 2017 2:09 PM
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sobanoodle said: i didn't say the argument was correct i sad what was he aiming with that argument and can you give me another purpose for there existence and i will say also that even the human exist to help another human kikyo1hinamora said: the poin the point of this argument is to tell you that your cause to not eat meat because animal feel pain is just a stupid argument since you also eat plant witch also feel pain so everything you sad was shit and yes we eat meat because it is delicious but also because eating only plants isn't good and you know when i see animals being murdered in a cruel way i do react like any other meat eater at least most of them and there are difference between killing an animal in cruel way and to a pointless cause like for fun and killing animals in a more humanitarian way and fo a purpose like being eaten witch is the cause why most animals or at least half of them exist in the first place and why does the fish exist if it is not to be eaten This argument doesn't prove that plants feel pain though, only that they can respond to stimulation by producing electrical signals. They even said in the video that plants don't have nerves, so how the hell are they supposed to feel pain like an animal can? Science proves that eating only plants is perfectly healthy when done correctly. The key is to eat a variety to balance your amino acids, and eat plants with high protein contents like nuts, legumes, seeds, and broccoli. As for your other point, you can't see the purpose of another life other than to die and satisfy your desire for flesh? That sounds incredibly selfish and messed up. and if you are a vegan why don't you eat fish since they can not feel pain and that when they are hooked by a fish man there reaction is only a reflex like the plant reflex and it was proven scientifically |
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LabelFlash said: Non-vegans always wonder why they get laughed at, and really this thread is a perfect example. No matter the reasoning or logic, they always find a way to justify torturing, killing and eating animals. Just fyi btw, animal meat is pretty shitty for your health anyway, lmao.  MEAT-EATERS = MANLETS, UGLY VEGANS = ATTRACTIVE, TALL, WEALTHY. |
kikyo1hinamora said: sobanoodle said: i didn't say the argument was correct i sad what was he aiming with that argument and can you give me another purpose for there existence and i will say also that even the human exist to help another human This argument doesn't prove that plants feel pain though, only that they can respond to stimulation by producing electrical signals. They even said in the video that plants don't have nerves, so how the hell are they supposed to feel pain like an animal can? Science proves that eating only plants is perfectly healthy when done correctly. The key is to eat a variety to balance your amino acids, and eat plants with high protein contents like nuts, legumes, seeds, and broccoli. As for your other point, you can't see the purpose of another life other than to die and satisfy your desire for flesh? That sounds incredibly selfish and messed up. and if you are a vegan why don't you eat fish since they can not feel pain and that when they are hooked by a fish man there reaction is only a reflex like the plant reflex and it was proven scientifically Why does everything arbitrarily revolve around humans to you? Probably in large part because you're a human, and your loved ones are human. Just seems like another way of being self-centered to me. Sorry to get religious on here, but here's what I believe the purpose of their and our existence is. Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honour, and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Perhaps fish don't feel pain, but it's still killing an animal so I won't support it. Btw, I'm not vegan and not strictly vegetarian yet. I plan to be a vegetarian though. |
| You are now breathing manually. |
sobanoodle said: can you explain why killing fish is different than killing a plant kikyo1hinamora said: i didn't say the argument was correct i sad what was he aiming with that argument and can you give me another purpose for there existence and i will say also that even the human exist to help another human and if you are a vegan why don't you eat fish since they can not feel pain and that when they are hooked by a fish man there reaction is only a reflex like the plant reflex and it was proven scientifically Why does everything arbitrarily revolve around humans to you? Probably in large part because you're a human, and your loved ones are human. Just seems like another way of being self-centered to me. Sorry to get religious on here, but here's what I believe the purpose of their and our existence is. Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honour, and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Perhaps fish don't feel pain, but it's still killing an animal so I won't support it. Btw, I'm not vegan and not strictly vegetarian yet. I plan to be a vegetarian though. and 2 this purpose thing that i sad is not only what i think but also it is what i think as a christian |
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ChannelOrange said: traed said: It's actually healthier to have certain meats in your diet along with a good intake of fruits and vegetables. Why some studies say vegitarian or vegan is healthier is from lack of quality control and because vegetarians try to eat healthier foods. Why would it be healthier? It would be because of certain nutrients right? Yeah nutrients and possibly certain fats. What you can get from supplements doesn't always cover everything I suppose. |
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kikyo1hinamora said: sobanoodle said: can you explain why killing fish is different than killing a plant Why does everything arbitrarily revolve around humans to you? Probably in large part because you're a human, and your loved ones are human. Just seems like another way of being self-centered to me. Sorry to get religious on here, but here's what I believe the purpose of their and our existence is. Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honour, and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Perhaps fish don't feel pain, but it's still killing an animal so I won't support it. Btw, I'm not vegan and not strictly vegetarian yet. I plan to be a vegetarian though. and 2 this purpose thing that i sad is not only what i think but also it is what i think as a christian A fish has a brain; that's why I think it's different. The why I see it, they're a step above plants. |
| You are now breathing manually. |
sobanoodle said: yeh a brain that can concentrate 2 seckikyo1hinamora said: can you explain why killing fish is different than killing a plant and 2 this purpose thing that i sad is not only what i think but also it is what i think as a christian A fish has a brain; that's why I think it's different. The why I see it, they're a step above plants. |
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ChannelOrange said: astrozombie84 said: Seriously dude? Its not creepy because people drink breast milk....its creepy because they are sucking on their moms boob. I guess they could drink it out of a cup...but it still came out of their moms boob. Also they probably wouldn't be drinking it out of a cup anyways. If a mom breast feeds their child for that long then they are addicted to nursing for whatever reason. Seriously though how in the fuck did that go over your head? They have a point. Adults drinking milk from another mammal after they no longer require it is kind of creepy. That is your own personal bias, and society..well western society doesn't agree with you. If you guys think drinking milk is creepy...well its no sweat of my sack. However it doesn't change the fact that he missed my point by a fucking mile. |
| I just want to eat in peace, satisfied in my knowledge that whatever I got the food from is violently convulsing in pain, if not dead. |
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova |
sobanoodle said: If a cow could eat you, it would. It wouldn't give a hoot about your feelings. It wouldn't kill you quickly or humanely and it certainly wouldn't worry about whether it was right to make a meal of you in the first place. It would ask itself one question: Am I hungry? If the answer was yes, you'd be lunch.kikyo1hinamora said: can you explain why killing fish is different than killing a plant and 2 this purpose thing that i sad is not only what i think but also it is what i think as a christian A fish has a brain; that's why I think it's different. The why I see it, they're a step above plants. so what do you say for that |
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| 1. The majority of what we eat from plants are fruits and vegetables which for the most part are intended as food. Fruits are made as an incentive to spread a plant's seeds so the plants actually want that part of themselves to be eaten. 2. Meat requires animals to eat a lot more plants than we would need to eat if we were to get our food from plants directly. |
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| Everyone has the right to feel sorry for whatever they wanted to feel sorry for, it just happened that Vegans have more empathy for animals. |
| *Yawn* Not gonna argue again with a stupid troll. |
| This can be easily answered. Vegans only have an average of 1-2 brain cells. 3 if they're lucky. Vegan Gains has -2, it has baffled the scientific community how he can still survive. |
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astrozombie84 said: Actually, you are probably 12 or a Christian with a 12 year old mindset if you think that the universe has some kind of conscious will that can either choose to give a fuck or not give a fuck about anything, or that what the universe thinks or animals think have any kind of relevance to the topic here, which is whether humans think it's okay to eat animals. I think you've watched too much Lion King, so you think the animal "kingdom" is there to get along. kikyo1hinamora said: WOW I'm not even a vegan...and your post pisses me off. This is why I hate people....they think humans are the most important thing in the universe. the pointhe point of this argument is to tell you that your cause to not eat meat because animal feel pain is just a stupid argument since you also eat plant witch also feel pain so everything you sad was shit and yes we eat meat because it is delicious but also because eating only plants isn't good and you know when i see animals being murdered in a cruel way i do react like any other meat eater at least most of them and there are difference between killing an animal in cruel way and to a pointless cause like for fun and killing animals in a more humanitarian way and fo a purpose like being eaten witch is the cause why most animals or at least half of them exist in the first place and why does the fish exist if it is not to be eaten Reality check the universe doesn't give a flying fuck about you. Modern humans have only existed for about 100,000 years.... 200,000 at best. Where as life on this planet started about 3 - 4 billion years ago. If you think animals exist to please us then you are fucked in the head...or a Christian....probably both. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| From an ethical standpoint you can't really argue against veganism. Health wise, it's kinda back and forth. I wanted to go vegan at some point.. Still do, but there aren't a lot of appealing options for me. I refuse to eat those fake meats and cheeses. I tried them before, but they're super disgusting. As for plants feeling pain.. Doesn't really bother me too much since scientific tests had to be done to even determine it. Ultimately, its just reactionary stuff isnt it? |
swirlydragon said: Animals can't breed faster than the carrying capacity of the land, which is getting smaller due to human settlements, not to mention that livestock animals don't have huge natural populations without artificial breeding. As for your other comment that humans have the largest population, try insects. Get edumacated.astrozombie84 said: Yeah so if we breed and kill them then it wouldn't make much of a difference.Humans don't have the highest population. Rats easily have a bigger population then us. There is also about 18 billion chickens. In terms of large animals though yes we are winning. However that has far more to do with technology then our place in the food chain. pre industrial revolution the human population was only 700 million...give or take a couple million. Once the industrial revolution happened though we were able to produce vastly more food....mostly because of oil....this allowed for the human population to sky rocket. Killing animals makes zero fucking difference when we are breeding them faster then we are eating them. But if we don't kill them then they'll keep on breeding and will kill more plants. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
SpamuraiSensei said: Maybe from an environmentalist standpoint, but you (vegans) take too many liberties with ethics. Perhaps you can't see the nuances in the question, so let me spell it out for you.From an ethical standpoint you can't really argue against veganism. Do rights apply to all things, or all living things, or all sentient living things, or all sentient living things with the ability to feel pain, or nothing? Where ever you draw the cutoff, why must that be the case? Is it a moral prerogative to try to protect the environment, why or why not? Should it be the responsibility of a person to improve the standing of all others (humans, animals, living things?) around him? Does his responsibility extend to direct influences, or even indirect influences? Does his responsibility extend to potential living things that does not exist? Don't bother replying, just think about it. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| I'm a carnivore so I'm a 100% good person I don't kill veggies. |
katsucats said: SpamuraiSensei said: Maybe from an environmentalist standpoint, but you (vegans) take too many liberties with ethics. Perhaps you can't see the nuances in the question, so let me spell it out for you.From an ethical standpoint you can't really argue against veganism. Do rights apply to all things, or all living things, or all sentient living things, or all sentient living things with the ability to feel pain, or nothing? Where ever you draw the cutoff, why must that be the case? Is it a moral prerogative to try to protect the environment, why or why not? Should it be the responsibility of a person to improve the standing of all others (humans, animals, living things?) around him? Does his responsibility extend to direct influences, or even indirect influences? Does his responsibility extend to potential living things that does not exist? Don't bother replying, just think about it. You're right about not replying. I don't understand what you're going on about. |
katsucats said: astrozombie84 said: Actually, you are probably 12 or a Christian with a 12 year old mindset if you think that the universe has some kind of conscious will that can either choose to give a fuck or not give a fuck about anything, or that what the universe thinks or animals think have any kind of relevance to the topic here, which is whether humans think it's okay to eat animals. I think you've watched too much Lion King, so you think the animal "kingdom" is there to get along. WOW I'm not even a vegan...and your post pisses me off. This is why I hate people....they think humans are the most important thing in the universe. Reality check the universe doesn't give a flying fuck about you. Modern humans have only existed for about 100,000 years.... 200,000 at best. Where as life on this planet started about 3 - 4 billion years ago. If you think animals exist to please us then you are fucked in the head...or a Christian....probably both. *edit* ok this one you actually were responding to me...I think...Im not even 100% sure what you are trying to say though. So first off...why are you taking everything I say so fucking literally. I'm not saying that the universe actually thinks about us...or anything....cause that would be stupid. Same thing with animals. Also strawman much? I never said that this was relevant to whether or not its moral to consume animals...I'm not even the one that brought it up. My entire point was that animals don't exist to feed us. Never said that animals get together, and sing kumbayah. I'm not even a vegetarian...let along a vegan....so not sure why you are attacking me. katsucats said: swirlydragon said: Animals can't breed faster than the carrying capacity of the land, which is getting smaller due to human settlements, not to mention that livestock animals don't have huge natural populations without artificial breeding. As for your other comment that humans have the largest population, try insects. Get edumacated.Yeah so if we breed and kill them then it wouldn't make much of a difference. But if we don't kill them then they'll keep on breeding and will kill more plants. Why are you quoting me? When you do that it makes me think you are responding to me rather then the other guy. Also bacteria have the largest population. Granted when it comes to bacteria....the line between life & death is pretty blurry. Cells are even weirder....they are basally super advanced machines...that grow, eat, evolve, reproduce, and even die. Unless of course they turn cancerous...cause they don't give damn about you. In which case they basically become immortal. You know what else is weird....there are about 20 tons of cancerous cells that originated from this dead chick....I forget her name...its not all in one place though. Anyways sorry for rambling but that's what happens when you misquote. |
astrozombie84Apr 12, 2017 5:07 PM
DarkExtract said: This forum is so fucking stupid. Vegans can eat whatever the fuck they want to eat. Making this forum saying Vegans should feel bad about eating plants is as bad as a Vegan making a video saying meat eaters should feel bad about eating meat. Any Vegan that's not stupid is going to keep eating plants after seeing this forum. I'm a meat eater btw. The people on this forum are so fucking stupid....they take everything so fucking literally. The OP isn't trying to make vegans feel guilty for eating plants. He is trying to point out that vegans are hypocritical for criticizing meat eaters. I'm sure you have heard some variation of this conversation before. Person A: Eating animals is wrong...they are living beings. Person B: Plants are alive too. Person A: But plants don't feel pain. |
| I actually found an article that argues vegans should eat insects because farming harms animals too. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/14/vegans-eat-insects_n_6153476.html |
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| By the reasoning of most of the non-vegans in this thread it should be perfectly acceptable to e.g. rape animals to death, use kittens as golfballs for fun or whatever. Because it all comes down to the idea that might makes right, that your pleasure trumps the wishes of another creature. Maybe you are just nihilists, in which case I won't argue because it'd be like arguing about the existence of colors with a blind person who claims that there is no such thing. If you are concerned about plant life, you can minimize the number of plants killed by going vegan. If you knew anything about food chains you'd understand this. Animals eat far more plant matter than their yield in flesh. |
| So does this mean that whenever I mow my lawn I'm committing an act of genocide? Awesome! |
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Kidemonas said: By the reasoning of most of the non-vegans in this thread it should be perfectly acceptable to e.g. rape animals to death, use kittens as golfballs for fun or whatever. Because it all comes down to the idea that might makes right, that your pleasure trumps the wishes of another creature. Maybe you are just nihilists, in which case I won't argue because it'd be like arguing about the existence of colors with a blind person who claims that there is no such thing. If you are concerned about plant life, you can minimize the number of plants killed by going vegan. If you knew anything about food chains you'd understand this. Animals eat far more plant matter than their yield in flesh. That's just a strawman. You can eat meat and have the animals be killed humanely. Also chickens lay eggs on their own and cows need to be milked, its just the heavy processing methods that is a problem there. Also domesticated farm animals have no where to live if it wasnt for the meat industry which is ironic really. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
traed said: That's just a strawman. You can eat meat and have the animals be killed humanely. Also chickens lay eggs on their own and cows need to be milked, its just the heavy processing methods that is a problem there. Also domesticated farm animals have no where to live if it wasnt for the meat industry which is ironic really. I don't believe that it is a strawman though. The reason why is that there is no such thing as "killing humanely" and while not all animals are farm animals, most of them are (my analogy is not meant to be categorical). "Cows need to be milked", after their babies are stolen and sent off to slaughter. It's true that chicken lay eggs and in theory I think it might be fine to eat eggs if the hen is ok with it, but almost all eggs come from an industry that is even more inhumane than the meat- and dairy industries. If you buy 'normal' eggs, you also support the grinding up of live male chicks. Sure, I'd rather be killed in a few second than kicked to death for hours, but I'd really prefer not to be killed at all. Animals bred for meat and dairy are not living good lives. Would it be ok to breed billions of kittens in tiny shoeboxes where they gnaw on each other and roll around in filth until you gas them and use their corpses as masturbator-toys? Surely, that would be humane? "Also domesticated farm animals have no where to live if it wasnt for the meat industry..." That's irrelevant. It would only be a problem if literally everyone went vegan overnight. Not sure if it was supposed to be an argument though. |
imeli said: LabelFlash said: Vegods vs low intelligence meat-eaters. Vegans who criticize those who eat animal meat are of low intelligence. Humans have been eating other animals since the dawn of our existence. There is no causation that links animal meat to negative health, even if it has saturated fats in it. There's a ton of studies linking the consumption of animal meat to negative health effects. Archaic humans having eaten meat does not prove anything except that it won't kill you before you manage to reproduce. |
Kidemonas said: traed said: That's just a strawman. You can eat meat and have the animals be killed humanely. Also chickens lay eggs on their own and cows need to be milked, its just the heavy processing methods that is a problem there. Also domesticated farm animals have no where to live if it wasnt for the meat industry which is ironic really. I don't believe that it is a strawman though. The reason why is that there is no such thing as "killing humanely" and while not all animals are farm animals, most of them are (my analogy is not meant to be categorical). "Cows need to be milked", after their babies are stolen and sent off to slaughter. It's true that chicken lay eggs and in theory I think it might be fine to eat eggs if the hen is ok with it, but almost all eggs come from an industry that is even more inhumane than the meat- and dairy industries. If you buy 'normal' eggs, you also support the grinding up of live male chicks. Sure, I'd rather be killed in a few second than kicked to death for hours, but I'd really prefer not to be killed at all. Animals bred for meat and dairy are not living good lives. Would it be ok to breed billions of kittens in tiny shoeboxes where they gnaw on each other and roll around in filth until you gas them and use their corpses as masturbator-toys? Surely, that would be humane? "Also domesticated farm animals have no where to live if it wasnt for the meat industry..." That's irrelevant. It would only be a problem if literally everyone went vegan overnight. Not sure if it was supposed to be an argument though. But you're suggesting that all methods of death and torture are equal and all reasons are equal. Which is where the fault of what you said was. Killing for nourishment isnt the same as killing for fun or out of anger. Skinning an animal alive and torturing it for days isnt the same as having a nearly painless death. Then shouldn't you realize then that the most realistic goal is to encourage reduced meat consumption and humane treatment of those animals before slaughter? There is no chance in hell the whole planet or even a whole country would go vegan. For fuck sake even India isnt fully vegetarian even if you include only Hindus. HaanFrost said: Yup I agree but most plants are at the end of their life span when they bore food for humans . If you sow a rice or paddy plant in summer it will die by next season and it's seeds that fell on ground will bear new plant . A reason why Jainism failed to propagate into a large peasant class . As they say , if horse befriend grass then it will die . They actually kill the plants with weed kiler soetimes but i think that was outlawed here a couple years ago for wheat. I think its still used n some industries |
traedApr 12, 2017 9:33 PM
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traed said: But you're suggesting that all methods of death and torture are equal and all reasons are equal. Which is where the fault of what you said was. Killing for nourishment isnt the same as killing for fun or out of anger. Skinning an animal alive and torturing it for days isnt the same as having a nearly painless death. Then shouldn't you realize then that the most realistic goal is to encourage reduced meat consumption and humane treatment of those animals before slaughter? There is no chance in hell the whole planet or even a whole country would go vegan. For fuck sake even India isnt fully vegetarian even if you include only Hindus. Well, I did take it down a notch with the example of gassing, didn't I? It's a common enough method of killing in the industry. I'm not saying all reasons are equal, I'm saying that killing animals for meat is something you do for gustatory sensation (unless, perhaps, you're one of the very very few (proportionally speaking) poor fishermen who simply have no choice). People eat animals and animal body fluids because they like it, that's what I contend. We simply don't need to eat these things. I'm glad that you think there is a difference between days of torture and a swift death as it suggests you aren't indifferent at least. The most realistic goal for what? Mankind as a species? I certainly don't think the whole of humanity will go vegan in the near future, but I'm not a utilitarist strictly speaking. As an analogy I would never encourage people to 'not rape often' or something like that. I believe in abolition, plain and simple. Even from a pragmatic point of view, it makes more sense to speak clearly about this, because people are lazy and don't gladly give up their habits if they don't feel bad about them. More succinctly though, I think most people aren't really aware of what's going on. I haven't always been vegan myself so I know what it's like to be on the other side of the fence so to speak. I look at things from an ecological, economical and cultural historical perspective and I'm pretty sure that most of the consumption of flesh and body fluids is far from as 'unavoidable' as some seem to think. Historically, people have been horrible. Prehistorically, at least as bad. Archaeological findings have shown that prehistoric people even ate human children ("it's fine, this one's from the OTHER tribe"). I like to think that we can continue to evolve to become more ethical; that we aren't stuck in old habits perpetually. Then, of course, I also think that properly philosophical questions of morality itself are highly relevant in the context but they are, sadly, brushed aside in today's society, even by the average vegan in my experience. I have come to avoid even bringing it up, partly because people have so different ideas about it (that a discussion has to turn into 10 different discussions), and partly because it's seldom embraced. |
AburadakoApr 12, 2017 10:23 PM
| @Kidemonas I've not heard of them using gassing. That makes no sense since it would contaminate meat with poisons unless it is something like nitrous asphyxiation in which case is painless in that it just puts them to sleep then they die from lack of oxygen. And why they like it is because their biology is wired to make them like it because it has something they need. Although this of course isnt always true since sometimes the wiring mistakes one thing for another. Humans evolved from eating meat along with the other things they ate. It's normal to crave meat. Also before you bring it up i already am aware the human digestive system is more similar to a plant eater since carnivores have short intestines but it should also be kept in mind humans are the only animals that evolved from cooking or curing their meat so that may play a role in less need for short intestines. Also have a look at what I posted in the previous page. traed said: I actually found an article that argues vegans should eat insects because farming harms animals too. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/14/vegans-eat-insects_n_6153476.html They make a fairly sound argument. Although you also could just grow your own food to make sure no animals are harmed but many people cant do that. |
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traed said: @Kidemonas I've not heard of them using gassing. That makes no sense since it would contaminate meat with poisons unless it is something like nitrous asphyxiation in which case is painless in that it just puts them to sleep then they die from lack of oxygen. And why they like it is because their biology is wired to make them like it because it has something they need. Although this of course isnt always true since sometimes the wiring mistakes one thing for another. Humans evolved from eating meat along with the other things they ate. It's normal to crave meat. Also before you bring it up i already am aware the human digestive system is more similar to a plant eater since carnivores have short intestines but it should also be kept in mind humans are the only animals that evolved from cooking or curing their meat so that may play a role in less need for short intestines. Also have a look at what I posted in the previous page. traed said: I actually found an article that argues vegans should eat insects because farming harms animals too. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/14/vegans-eat-insects_n_6153476.html They make a fairly sound argument. Although you also could just grow your own food to make sure no animals are harmed but many people cant do that. Gassing is mentioned as one of the methods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling To be clear, my point was precisely that gas is less painful than the examples in my first analogy. What I wanted to get to was whether you find it acceptable to do what you please with an animal as long as you consider the method of killing humane. Yes, from an evolutionary perspective archaic humans ate all sorts of things. Probably mainly fruit, roots and tubers and such but also the occasional frog, insect or even small mammal. Then, at a later stage, they began eating more meat. We may well have developed a taste for it and we certainly need various nutrients, some of which exist in animal tissues. But surely you don't mean that: 1. Humans need nutrition to live 2. Some of that nutrition can be found in animal tissue 3. Therefore, humans must eat animal tissues I'm not gonna do a strawman and say that that is what you say. We both know that the nutrients are found elsewhere too. I think, rather, that you agree with me that people eat meat because they like to. I'm interested in how quantifiable the craving is. There was a time when I loved meat, not less than the average person. Now I don't crave it at all. I never long for it. Not everyone is me, but I think that it would be a mistake to think that a desire to eat specifically animal products is in any way fundamental to being human (whatever that means). I can understand that to anyone to whom it seems that way, veganism seems utterly dreary. My eating has only improved in terms of quality. But "I really crave it" is a poor excuse to do something immoral. A lot of horrible crimes (that non-vegans would agree are indeed criminal) are motivated by desire. Indeed, many horrible things are probably happening solely because of how intense that desire is for the perpetrator. This can be analyzed further, of course. How much control do we have over ourselves, how great is the pleasure, how immoral is it and so on - or, from a different perspective, is X always wrong no matter what and Y always acceptable. Philosophically speaking it's not a simple matter. Unfortunately a lot of meat-eaters seem to take the complexity as an approval of not pursuing the issue. This is really no different from continuing with slavery because the deeper moral questions of employment, economy, technocracy etc. are complex. As for the entomophagy, the argument comes from the assumption that insects don't experience pain. I don't think that's true because insects have nervous systems. Beans don't. It is definitely a concern that animals die in agriculture and I try to buy organic food where I know they don't kill animals using pesticides etc. It's more complicated than the average vegan tends to admit. I definitely can't be bothered to care about the lives of mites living in my bed linen for example, and so I am guilty of some sort of speciesism. I even agree that it makes more sense to care about the life of a mouse than the life of a fly, but I'm not sure that it's obvious to choose to eat a hundred thousand beetles to save a small mammal. We'll see what insights future research might bring us. I tend to think that my priorities are quite similar to those of the average joe; I'm simply being consistent. I wouldn't kill a kitten, so I wouldn't kill a lamb. |
AburadakoApr 12, 2017 11:58 PM
| I'm not going to argue about morals. Everybody eats what they want and as long as nobody actually bans meat, I'm ok with vegans. But at the same time I can't understand "we don't need it" arguments. I mean, we also don't need to write on this forum right now - we waste time and energy that could be used in much more productive manner or at least not wasted. You know, coal plants also hurt animals. Actually, we don't even "need" to live. The best for everyone around, both humans and animals, would be if most of us died. We only live for our selfish reason of wanting to live. And what's up with pain? We only care about pain as an argument because we can feel it ourselves. If we were sentient plans then we'd be ok with killing animals and not plants. It's ok to feel sorry for them, but basing some kind of "justice" on ones limited understanding of life (both animal and plant) is wrong imo. |
JustAnotherShiroApr 12, 2017 11:58 PM
Terkhev said: I'm not going to argue about morals. Everybody eats what they want and as long as nobody actually bans meat, I'm ok with vegans. But at the same time I can't understand "we don't need it" arguments. I mean, we also don't need to write on this forum right now - we waste time and energy that could be used in much more productive manner or at least not wasted. You know, coal plants also hurt animals. Actually, we don't even "need" to live. The best for everyone around, both humans and animals, would be if most of us died. We only live for our selfish reason of wanting to live. And what's up with pain? We only care about pain as an argument because we can feel it ourselves. If we were sentient plans then we'd be ok with killing animals and not plants. It's ok to feel sorry for them, but basing some kind of "justice" on ones limited understanding of life (both animal and plant) is wrong imo. That's the most intelligent comment, I've ever read lol Your avatar definitely agrees with your opinion xD |
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