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MikioBo said: Guilek said: Shirou won't self-destruct because he will have no regret and know that he can't save everyone but he will try and be happy with the result he will have. Sure Shirou may not self-destruct from his internal perspective since he has no regrets, but I'm willing to bet that most normal people observing his behavior would certainly define it as self-destructive (among other things). That's an appeal to the people fallacy. X isn't true just because most people say it is. |
fst said: Mickdrew said: derp? ya dun goof'd son  teehee jks =P Seriously tho, the reactions are hilarious. Damn, how did I miss this? |
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Mickdrew said: fst said: ya dun goof'd son teehee jks =P Does it make you feel stupid when I talk stupid to you? |
fst said: Does it make you feel stupid when I talk stupid to you? Actually, no. You're finally takin my language. I guess this means I'm normally stupid =/ |
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Mickdrew said: fst said: Does it make you feel stupid when I talk stupid to you? Actually, no. You're finally takin my language. I guess this means I'm normally stupid =/ Good, because I meant for you to feel stupid by doing that |
fst said: Mickdrew said: Actually, no. You're finally takin my language. I guess this means I'm normally stupid =/ Good, because I meant for you to feel stupid by doing that  |
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innova3 said: Anyone know the name of the soundtrack that played in the end of the chapter? Btw,shirou is so stupid. How is he stupid? |
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MikioBo said: 'laidellent said: But they didn't know when Archer is going to come.Also,Caster vs Archer was not that one sided.( atleast in the VN IIRC) The argument started when a user claimed that by agreeing to give his Command Seals to Caster, Shirou saved everyone in that situation. My point was that Shirou agreeing to join Caster was useless except for stalling for time, since the situation still devolved into a fight. I tried to reason that even if Saber fought against Caster from the start (i.e. Shirou decided not to cooperate with Caster), they still would have probably survived long enough for Archer to come. Shrimperor said: Archer could hold Caster back, but couldn't fully defeat her. Or he would've killed her. That's why he said they need to find her Master and kill him to take out Caster. Also, Archer, unlike Saber, has long range attacks, and a complete contract with his Master, unlike Saber and Shirou. I'm not saying that Saber could defeat Caster, but I'm pretty confident that Saber, especially given her magic protection, is good enough to hold Caster back for at least as long as it took Archer to break the barrier. I believe that Rin and Shirou were also powerful enough to protect themselves from those water monsters for a while. You're contradicting yourself. Now you're criticizing Shirou because Saber got captured by Caster (which saved Taiga) but before you stated you don't like Shirou because his mentality hurts people who like him. Taiga being saved is more important than Saber because the former is a human being who's closer to Shirou. And whether Shirou's mentality hurts people close to him or not shouldn't even be that much of a point to dislike. Sure it can be a flaw but you're over-blowing it. Individuals have the right to do whatever the want with themselves and this is a moral stance that's behind a lot of social issues. Heck if someone decides to go to some war torn country to help people and their family get emotionally troubled for the person's decision and actions, they can go bash their heads against a wall. Kiritsugu was willing to . Is he in the wrong too? Also in your previous post, you stated Shirou has plot armor because Gil didn't kill in the castle. Well Rin had Shinji in sight. Sure, Gil could have fought but he also has things to attend to. As he said, the heart will spoil if he doesn't hurry. The only reason he should risk the heart from spoiling and engaged a confrontation even if Shinji is targeted is if Gil himself is facing beings who he thinks are existential threats to him. There's no evidence to be the case. So it's not plot armor. And it's well within Gil's personality not to care about things that don't have value to him. |
CyberNTMay 24, 2015 10:04 PM
nocorras said: innova3 said: Anyone know the name of the soundtrack that played in the end of the chapter? Btw,shirou is so stupid. How is he stupid? Remember when he ran to IIlaya with no master and almost got killed by Gilgamesh? Or when he told Archer that even though he was correct, he wasn't right? |
Gov said: nocorras said: How is he stupid? Remember when he ran to IIlaya with no master and almost got killed by Gilgamesh? Or when he told Archer that even though he was correct, he wasn't right? I thought we went over the correct but not right thing like 10 times already. Shirou ran into a lot of situations like that and knows he would. He did the same thing to save Rin in episode 13. |
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nocorras said: Gov said: Remember when he ran to IIlaya with no master and almost got killed by Gilgamesh? Or when he told Archer that even though he was correct, he wasn't right? I thought we went over the correct but not right thing like 10 times already. I just got back so I wasn't up to date with the thread, mine filling me in? |
| Thoughts on the episode, well, to be simple, I liked it, sure they changed some things, but I've completely accepted that at this point. Lancer was awesome, Shinji was scared, Gilgamesh was afraid of near death lancer, Shirou yelled a lot cause monologues are for pussies (jking). 4/5 P.S. props to nocorras and Insertanamehere for best meido avatars, maybe I'll make one up myself and join you. |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
MikioBo said: The only thing that has changed is that he is aware that his way of life is stupid and it's hurting the people close to him, and he still stubbornly refuses to change. Whether Shirou's ideal and his pursuit of it has hurt the people close to him hasn't even been addressed by the show, it hasn't even been mentioned by Archer, hasn't been acknowledged by Shirou and the anime hasn't shown anyone being hurt emotionally by Shirou's ideals. Where the heck are you getting this? |
CyberNTMay 24, 2015 9:44 PM
Gov said: nocorras said: I thought we went over the correct but not right thing like 10 times already. I just got back so I wasn't up to date with the thread, mine filling me in? Zulkir said: Lol, Shirou said nothing about rightness/correctness. The whole line is completely random translator's thoughts and has nothing to do with what Shirou said. Let me quote myself Zulkir said: Literally, What he meant is "You are completely right, but being right or not has nothing to do with my ideal." |
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Gov said: @nocorras Excellent post, thanks. Probably one of the better posters in this entire section that I can rely on. I didn't translate it Zulkir did. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1386752 |
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nocorras said: Gov said: @nocorras Excellent post, thanks. Probably one of the better posters in this entire section that I can rely on. I didn't translate it Zulkir did. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1386752 I give my thanks for Zulkir. Anyway thanks for taking the time to get the quote. |
Mickdrew said: You all expected it, and the kind folks at AnimeNewsNetwork did not disappoint. The grade for the 20th episode of FSN, regarded by many as the best of the second cour thus far: D http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/fate-stay-night-unlimited-blade-works/episode-20/.88524 There's nothing worse than people who make every single thing about beta males, alpha makes, women and patriarchy. That was the first time I went to read anything on that site, probably won't go again to read anything. |
| Jaywalker. |
| Not sure if anyone mentioned it (too lazy to check) but did anyone notice the gear-turning sounds during xp torrent moments? At least I think that's what it was, if it's intentional then I like this little detail. |
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nocorras said: Gov said: I just got back so I wasn't up to date with the thread, mine filling me in? Zulkir said: Lol, Shirou said nothing about rightness/correctness. The whole line is completely random translator's thoughts and has nothing to do with what Shirou said. Let me quote myself What he meant is "You are completely right, but being right or not has nothing to do with my ideal." This. Shirou is basically saying Archer being right about what could happen to Shirou is not the whole picture. The imagery before indicates what is it that Archer is missing. Next episode should make it very obvious. But for those who want the quick answer: And Archer is wrong about Shirou. Archer feels betrayed by his ideal but Shirou can't possibly feel betrayed since he saw what could possibly happen. You can't feel betrayed if you're aware. |
Kolios said: But for those who want the quick answer: And Archer is wrong about Shirou. Archer feels betrayed by his ideal but Shirou can't possibly feel betrayed since he saw what could possibly happen. You can't feel betrayed if you're aware. That and this guy explains what Shirou's view is as an anime only if anyone is interested: http://rereadsandreviews.com/2015/05/24/ubw-20/ |
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Epicenter said: Mickdrew said: You all expected it, and the kind folks at AnimeNewsNetwork did not disappoint. The grade for the 20th episode of FSN, regarded by many as the best of the second cour thus far: D http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/fate-stay-night-unlimited-blade-works/episode-20/.88524 There's nothing worse than people who make every single thing about beta males, alpha makes, women and patriarchy. That was the first time I went to read anything on that site, probably won't go again to read anything. It's probably their inner insecurity of their role in society that causes them to yap on and on about equality. That's the only plausible reason I can think of. :/ |
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OneTrueEmiya said: Epicenter said: There's nothing worse than people who make every single thing about beta males, alpha makes, women and patriarchy. That was the first time I went to read anything on that site, probably won't go again to read anything. It's probably their inner insecurity of their role in society that causes them to yap on and on about equality. That's the only plausible reason I can think of. :/ Lol Indeed. I'm all for trying to bring about equality where feasible, but I just distaste whenever they want to censor art platforms from using rape, sexism and the such in a story, or act like every single thing is about genders and some diabolical plot to undermine some type of group of people. Sometimes when rape happens instead of taking the person as a villain, some people insist that it's glorifying rape and about how men, and only men, love rape, even though in the story it's obviously an evil deed. |
| Jaywalker. |
nocorras said: better than some dumb fuck who decided that he couldnt except that superheroism was just a concept and not a goal and sold his soul to become one, then comes back bitching and crying about oh my gauwd such bullshit BULLSHIT. YOUR IDEALS ARE STUPID AND I'M RIGHT. I'M RIGHT AND YOUR STUPID ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEEEinnova3 said: Anyone know the name of the soundtrack that played in the end of the chapter? Btw,shirou is so stupid. How is he stupid? on that note with all this rule of cool stuff the anime is doing any chance yall think we might see shirou bust out the crane wing?..i mean at least half of one and not just part of it. |
Maloghurst said: nocorras said: better than some dumb fuck who decided that he couldnt except that superheroism was just a concept and not a goal and sold his soul to become one, then comes back bitching and crying about oh my gauwd such bullshit BULLSHIT. YOUR IDEALS ARE STUPID AND I'M RIGHT. I'M RIGHT AND YOUR STUPID ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEEEHow is he stupid? on that note with all this rule of cool stuff the anime is doing any chance yall think we might see shirou bust out the crane wing?..i mean at least half of one and not just part of it. If they aren't going to adapt SLH they should just do it in UBW sometime. |
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nocorras said: Maloghurst said: better than some dumb fuck who decided that he couldnt except that superheroism was just a concept and not a goal and sold his soul to become one, then comes back bitching and crying about oh my gauwd such bullshit BULLSHIT. YOUR IDEALS ARE STUPID AND I'M RIGHT. I'M RIGHT AND YOUR STUPID ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEEE on that note with all this rule of cool stuff the anime is doing any chance yall think we might see shirou bust out the crane wing?..i mean at least half of one and not just part of it. If they aren't going to adapt SLH they should just do it in UBW sometime. Nah, save it for the aftercredits of the HF movies, one bad end per movie (and it had better damn well be more than one movie). |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
Dug_Fin said: i can see them buffing shirou and tweeking things just so they can add it in......i mean cmon...archer casted ubw twice.....nocorras said: If they aren't going to adapt SLH they should just do it in UBW sometime. Nah, save it for the aftercredits of the HF movies, one bad end per movie (and it had better damn well be more than one movie). |
Dug_Fin said: Nah, save it for the aftercredits of the HF movies, one bad end per movie (and it had better damn well be more than one movie). Yeah, they can do the bad ends in short movies like KnK's Extra Chorus. |
Maloghurst said: Dug_Fin said: i can see them buffing shirou and tweeking things just so they can add it in......i mean cmon...archer casted ubw twice.....Nah, save it for the aftercredits of the HF movies, one bad end per movie (and it had better damn well be more than one movie). No problems there, he only used a small section of the aria, so it only cost a small bit of the prana, which is also why it didn't have him shooting swords, this lesser version doesn't have that option, its UBW lite, that is now my headcannon, and you can't tell me different. |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
Dug_Fin said: well..ya know..they can always do what they did in the previous episode and not actually give us concrete numbers. then Maloghurst said: i can see them buffing shirou and tweeking things just so they can add it in......i mean cmon...archer casted ubw twice..... No problems there, he only used a small section of the aria, so it only cost a small bit of the prana, which is also why it didn't have him shooting swords, this lesser version doesn't have that option, its UBW lite, that is now my headcannon, and you can't tell me different. |
| Great, great episode. When they skipped the opening it seemed cemented that it would be. The Lancer scene was perfect, and the last portions of the Shirou & Archer flashbacks/confrontation almost made me tear up a little. Almost. I don't remember having that kind of reaction at all from reading this part in the VN. *shrug* And no, I did not have a problem understanding "just because you're correct, doesn't mean you're right". If you were actually following the conversations and flashbacks up until that point, it makes perfect sense. Maybe it could've been translated differently though, I dunno. On a small sidenote, I really liked this shot of Saber for some reason:  Not even sure why... maybe because of the dialogue and music that happened to play during that short moment. Most likely a combination. |
Kolios said: That's an appeal to the people fallacy. X isn't true just because most people say it is. Whoops, you are right there. There are still some cases where characters from the story say how Shirou's behavior is self-destructive. I will adress these in the next post. Kolios said: You're contradicting yourself. Now you're criticizing Shirou because Saber got captured by Caster (which saved Taiga) but before you stated you don't like Shirou because his mentality hurts people who like him. Taiga being saved is more important than Saber because the former is a human being who's closer to Shirou. Actually I wasn't blaming Shirou for choosing to save Taiga, that probably is the same choice I would make. But him opposing Caster until she mentions summoning the Grail without fighting, definitely puts Taiga in danger, he was just lucky that Caster is such a softy and was being very patient Kolios said: And whether Shirou's mentality hurts people close to him or not shouldn't even be that much of a point to dislike. Sure it can be a flaw but you're over-blowing it. Individuals have the right to do whatever the want with themselves and this is a moral stance that's behind a lot of social issues. Heck if someone decides to go to some war torn country to help people and their family get emotionally troubled for the person's decision and actions, they can go bash their heads against a wall. Kiritsugu was willing to . Is he in the wrong too? I see Kiritsugu's ideal as a flaw too, because there is no such thing as saving humanity, humanity doesn't need saving. I believe a person should focus on protecting the people that are most important to them, so when facing a hypothetical monster willing to destroy the planet, one's motivation should not be "I'm killing this monster to save the billions random people I have never met in my life", but rather "I'm killing this monster so my wife, kids and my friends don't die". I simply find the latter motivation a lot more believable. So what bothers me about Shirou's behavior isn't that he is willing to save people, on the contrary that is very noble, my problem with him is that he throws himself in hopeless situations where he knows there is nothing he can do. For example, based on his behavior so far, I believe that Shirou would try to punch a meteor on his way to killing a person, instead of acknowledging that there is nothing he can do to stop the meteor, and that it's better to live today so he can save more people later on. So if your lover died trying to punch a meteor, you would probably feel a lot worse than if your lover died while saving three other people from drowning. Kolios said: Also in your previous post, you stated Shirou has plot armor because Gil didn't kill in the castle. Well Rin had Shinji in sight. Sure, Gil could have fought but he also has things to attend to. As he said, the heart will spoil if he doesn't hurry. The only reason he should risk the heart from spoiling and engaged a confrontation even if Shinji is targeted is if Gil himself is facing beings who he thinks are existential threats to him. There's no evidence to be the case. So it's not plot armor. And it's well within Gil's personality not to care about things that don't have value to him. The only point I cannot argue is that it is within Gil's personality not to care about things that don't have value to him. But aside from that, do you truly believe that Gil cares whether Shinji dies or not? He can survive just as easily without him, as he has all these years since the previous war. So Rin's threat had absolutely no effect on him. Additionally, I always interpreted him leaving because the heart will "spoil" as a mocking excuse to let Shirou and Rin live, since I doubt he would have needed more than a second to kill both. |
Kolios said: Whether Shirou's ideal and his pursuit of it has hurt the people close to him hasn't even been addressed by the show, it hasn't even been mentioned by Archer, hasn't been acknowledged by Shirou and the anime hasn't shown anyone being hurt emotionally by Shirou's ideals. Where the heck are you getting this? I'm getting it mainly from common sense (at least I wouldn't like it if my loved ones died while chasing some unattainable ideal) and from Rin's reactions, especially after the death of Illya. You can see how troubled Rin is, how painful it is for her to watch Shirou simply throw his life away, and there's this entire conversation where she says that he is broken and his way of life in unsustainable (i.e. self-destructive). You can also see how self-destructive is by looking at Archer (sure, he is just one possibility for Shiou's future, but a possibility nonetheless), who is disappointed by his life to the point that he is willing to kill his younger self, just because there is a small chance creating a time paradox that also makes him disappear. |
MikioBo said: Kolios said: Whether Shirou's ideal and his pursuit of it has hurt the people close to him hasn't even been addressed by the show, it hasn't even been mentioned by Archer, hasn't been acknowledged by Shirou and the anime hasn't shown anyone being hurt emotionally by Shirou's ideals. Where the heck are you getting this? I'm getting it mainly from common sense (at least I wouldn't like it if my loved ones died while chasing some unattainable ideal) and from Rin's reactions, especially after the death of Illya. You can see how troubled Rin is, how painful it is for her to watch Shirou simply throw his life away, and there's this entire conversation where she says that he is broken and his way of life in unsustainable (i.e. self-destructive). You can also see how self-destructive is by looking at Archer (sure, he is just one possibility for Shiou's future, but a possibility nonetheless), who is disappointed by his life to the point that he is willing to kill his younger self, just because there is a small chance creating a time paradox that also makes him disappear. She's pained because she's seen the end of the road for Shriou. People keep forgetting that Archer and Shriou do not view the ideal in the same way. As long as Shirou keeps his way and doesn't fall into Archer's pitfall his way isn't really self destructive. There's still some story left too so I'm not going to get into anymore than that. |
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nocorras said: She's pained because she's seen the end of the road for Shriou. People keep forgetting that Archer and Shriou do not view the ideal in the same way. As long as Shirou keeps his way and doesn't fall into Archer's pitfall his way isn't really self destructive. There's still some story left too so I'm not going to get into anymore than that. That's exactly it, the story thus far has shown little to convince me that Shirou will not end up like Archer, or at least walk a very similar path in life. I never claimed that my opinion on Shirou will not change if he changes his outlook, in fact I have mentioned multiple times in my previous posts how Shirou can redeem himself and be more likable, at least in my eyes. |
| Next episodes you'll see why Shirou won't become Archer (even if he may or may not selfdestruct) |
MikioBo said: nocorras said: She's pained because she's seen the end of the road for Shriou. People keep forgetting that Archer and Shriou do not view the ideal in the same way. As long as Shirou keeps his way and doesn't fall into Archer's pitfall his way isn't really self destructive. There's still some story left too so I'm not going to get into anymore than that. That's exactly it, the story thus far has shown little to convince me that Shirou will not end up like Archer, or at least walk a very similar path in life. I never claimed that my opinion on Shirou will not change if he changes his outlook, in fact I have mentioned multiple times in my previous posts how Shirou can redeem himself and be more likable, at least in my eyes. He has literally already changed his outlook and view on the ideal. It's apparent much earlier in the VN that Shirou understands certain things about his ideal, they removed a monologue that explains it earlier in the route. They will probably state SHirou's answer directly next episode but the pieces are already in place to understand his view. |
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Shrimperor said: Next episodes you'll see why Shirou won't become Archer (even if he may or may not selfdestruct) nocorras said: He has literally already changed his outlook and view on the ideal. It's apparent much earlier in the VN that Shirou understands certain things about his ideal, they removed a monologue that explains it earlier in the route. They will probably state SHirou's answer directly next episode but the pieces are already in place to understand his view. Well then, I'll simply wait till next episode to see how things will play out. I've spent way too much time already arguing about things I don't even disagree with that strongly :D. |
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The sun is a deadly laser |
| Oh, well. At this point, I have had enough of the ridiculousness of the writing. I am sorry. In the end, this is simply an anime anime with bad writing but amazing visuals, which is not enough for me. It's all about the writing, at least for me. Now I can safely say Fate/Zero is definitely much better than this. The 2nd cour: 4/10. |
| I like anime. |
| How many people get that the ideal isn't wrong? Just don't make it a goal. Use the ideal as a way of life. Pat_To_Do-List said: Oh, well. At this point, I have had enough of the ridiculousness of the writing. I am sorry. In the end, this is simply an anime anime with bad writing but amazing visuals, which is not enough for me. It's all about the writing, at least for me. Now I can safely say Fate/Zero is definitely much better than this. The 2nd cour: 4/10. You're probably see the fight like this:  |
fateoffate said: How many people get that the ideal isn't wrong? Just don't make it a goal. Use the ideal as a way of life. Pat_To_Do-List said: Oh, well. At this point, I have had enough of the ridiculousness of the writing. I am sorry. In the end, this is simply an anime anime with bad writing but amazing visuals, which is not enough for me. It's all about the writing, at least for me. Now I can safely say Fate/Zero is definitely much better than this. The 2nd cour: 4/10. You're probably see the fight like this: Yeah, there was a difference of opinions on ideals or something, blah blah blah, all I saw was ORA ORA ORA ORA! MUDA! MUDA! MUDA! MUDA! |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
Dug_Fin said: Yeah, there was a difference of opinions on ideals or something, blah blah blah, all I saw was ORA ORA ORA ORA! MUDA! MUDA! MUDA! MUDA! Looking at next episode's shots, there better be a lot of ONORE ONORE ONORE ONORE ONORE! I don't care if it's not the time yet. |
| EMIYA THEME OR RIOT!!! |
astroprogs said: Dug_Fin said: Yeah, there was a difference of opinions on ideals or something, blah blah blah, all I saw was ORA ORA ORA ORA! MUDA! MUDA! MUDA! MUDA! Looking at next episode's shots, there better be a lot of ONORE ONORE ONORE ONORE ONORE! I don't care if it's not the time yet. Don't worry, next episode will shorten answer to a minute and a half, followed by 30 seconds of dolphins, and then spend 20 minutes on Gilgamesh calling Shirou a faker and talking about how good (Gilgamesh) is for this crappy weaksauce world. |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
Shrimperor said: EMIYA THEME OR RIOT!!! I think it's more or less confirmed at this point. Dug_Fin said: Don't worry, next episode will shorten answer to a minute and a half, followed by 30 seconds of dolphins, and then spend 20 minutes on Gilgamesh calling Shirou a faker and talking about how good (Gilgamesh) is for this crappy weaksauce world.  |
| CookingPriest of all people should know that the imitiation is never a perfect copy of the original... XDDDDDDD |
| "There's no shame in falling down... true shame is to not stand up again!" "Aah? Of course I won't miss!" "My blood tastes like Iron." "Run through the tape in life! Never give up! Run through the tape!" |
| Okay so...not half bad of an episode. More Archer stuff, good, more ideals, good. Would have liked some projection explanation but we are past that point so fuck it. UBW being cast made no sense to me, but whatever cause COOL BACKGROUND. Lancer is badass. Overall...best episode this season, but that isn't really hard. |
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