katsucats said: jal90 said: I wouldn't say a show needs to be stylistically unique, but it does bug me when they're pretty much building characters off templates. A show with a generic art style is not bad per se, but it cannot be considered "good" when it lacks personality so much that it becomes distracting.-An argument of lack of originality alone can't be held as a definition for the lack of art quality. One can follow a massive trend and still bring a good and efficient work. The idea that something needs to be stylistically separated from the rest to be good and that this quality automatically makes it better than "generic-looking" shows bugs me. Here's a character I swear I've seen in a million anime. First up is the Hero from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha: Next up is Kirito from Sword Art Online: Okay, I'll give credit where it's due: they changed the eye color... Good post katsucats, dont forget they also change the hair color, this is specially true for female charactres designs. I wanna see where is the generic version og Goku, Seiya, Harlock, Anne, Sarah, Tsubasa, Vegeta, Shun, Shunsuke (kabocha wine), Kozue (Attack No. 1), Astroboy, Alucard, Luffy, Lupin, Ryou Saeba, Leiji distinctive art style, or Adachi Sensei's, etc, etc Only generic-ness you get in older eras is the unimportant background characters, because the protagonists, NEVER; but today even between protagonist, no way to tell them apart other than different eye color, hair mainly, it does not hel like as mentioned above, anime share the same story with little differences over and over again. |
| @9988 I didn't answer this question because I'm all against simplifying the state of the anime industry in "old/new is better/worse". Honestly, I couldn't care less for confronting them. I'll still be picking interesting shows at whatever age they are made. Take for example 2003. Should I praise it for having Kino's journey, or maybe I should loathe it for having Eiken? On your points, well: -The problem of "moe" is that it has become so much of an argument by itself that people rarely come to analyze the reasons that make them reject it. I read here that the moe style tends to make drawing features more simple and less detailed. I can accept this as a criticism, despite I don't share it (a lack of detail in a drawing can be a stylistic decision that actually benefits the whole work), what I can't do is accepting the "moe sucks because it's moe" trend. -I am not at all well-versed on the general trends, both in old and new anime. So I'll never be able to say that Spring 2012 anime was better than Winter 1979 anime or otherwise. Since I pick shows regardless of the age and don't try to be really into analyzing an era or another, my thoughts on each one are -and I guess will be- the ones of a casual viewer. This doesn't mean that I can't point at key differences even in similar artstyles (as I did with the moe slice-of-life examples). -Yep, artstyle is usually judged by the character designs, but that doesn't mean it's right, does it? I put the example of Madoka because a key point in defining its artstyle is confronting the sort of generic character looks with the heavily stylistic background design. And this mix is what in the end defines the style of the series and its unique appearance. |
9988 said: Oh, this is interesting, as you are well versed in older anime as well, you make valid points but not focusing in the moe how can one leave it out when moe has defined this era? and the visual traits of moe are what have definied the art style in this era as well. Now we can all agree that there are very good art style in this era as well of we go on hunting and picking individual examples, however we need to focus on the general trend that is seen in anime today. About the backgrounds, well, the art style will usually be judged and will speak for itself with the characters designs, a memorable anime will usually begin with the characters design , personality, etc, in combination with solid story. You can have amazing background but thats it if you have lacluster character designs or story, and no I am not referring about the series you speak of, I'm speaking in general. Who's to say that moe is the definitive trait of this era? Now I'm not necessarily saying it isn't, but more than anything, I find that the moe artstyle is something of a signature style that's only really prevalent in comedy/slice-of-life types, far from utterly dominating all anime of this era. So what does that say about "defining" this era? No offense, but I find that the reasons given by the very same person you quoted have already provided answers for you in the following: jal90 said: The problem with this thread is that it has been focused on two, say, qualities of the newer art that barely make for a true perception of the art quality as a whole. One, being that the character designs follow the moe trend. The problems at this argument are basically: -The moe artstyle by itself is ridiculously wide. Changes in eye-colour, proportions, facial features, etc. With the only purpose of looking cute. Take for example K-On! (typical Kyoani artwork) and compare it with Lucky Star (chibified characters, different colour palette and eye-size/form), and then take Ichigo Mashimaro (another different colour palette, more stylistically rounded facial features). And these are all the moe slice-of-life type. The first two being from the same studio. -An argument of lack of originality alone can't be held as a definition for the lack of art quality. One can follow a massive trend and still bring a good and efficient work. The idea that something needs to be stylistically separated from the rest to be good and that this quality automatically makes it better than "generic-looking" shows bugs me. -The OP examples were cherrypicking, as they were entirely focused on character design, which is only a part of artstyle understood as a whole. For example, are the Madoka Magica characters generic looking? Yes. Is the background design generic looking? Fuck no, it's absurdly stylized and futuristic. Not to mention the witches' worlds. The mix of these two elements is important and gives the show an unique style that can't be analyzed by putting a random cover image. Also: hentai_proxy said: 9988 said: but today even between protagonist, no way to tell them apart other than different eye color, hair mainly, it does not hel like as mentioned above, anime share the same story with little differences over and over again. Do you seriously believe that, or is this an exaggeration for the sake of the argument? Sadly I think it's both... |
ronriJan 17, 2013 2:39 AM
9988 said: I wouldn't completely agree with this statement but I don't have anything fresh on my mind.Only generic-ness you get in older eras is the unimportant background characters, because the protagonists, NEVER |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: jal90 said: I wouldn't say a show needs to be stylistically unique, but it does bug me when they're pretty much building characters off templates. A show with a generic art style is not bad per se, but it cannot be considered "good" when it lacks personality so much that it becomes distracting.-An argument of lack of originality alone can't be held as a definition for the lack of art quality. One can follow a massive trend and still bring a good and efficient work. The idea that something needs to be stylistically separated from the rest to be good and that this quality automatically makes it better than "generic-looking" shows bugs me. Here's a character I swear I've seen in a million anime. First up is the Hero from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha: Next up is Kirito from Sword Art Online: Okay, I'll give credit where it's due: they changed the eye color... Yes, I agree this is a weak point in my argument. Anyway I don't think I expressed my idea well; what I mean is that originality alone can't be used to judge the quality of a work. It's just another factor that can be taken into account, but in the end what is important is the fusion between art and story, or art and mood. |
jal90 said: katsucats said: jal90 said: I wouldn't say a show needs to be stylistically unique, but it does bug me when they're pretty much building characters off templates. A show with a generic art style is not bad per se, but it cannot be considered "good" when it lacks personality so much that it becomes distracting.-An argument of lack of originality alone can't be held as a definition for the lack of art quality. One can follow a massive trend and still bring a good and efficient work. The idea that something needs to be stylistically separated from the rest to be good and that this quality automatically makes it better than "generic-looking" shows bugs me. Here's a character I swear I've seen in a million anime. First up is the Hero from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha: Next up is Kirito from Sword Art Online: Okay, I'll give credit where it's due: they changed the eye color... Yes, I agree this is a weak point in my argument. Anyway I don't think I expressed my idea well; what I mean is that originality alone can't be used to judge the quality of a work. It's just another factor that can be taken into account, but in the end what is important is the fusion between art and story, or art and mood. Both are taken out of context for the sole purpose of analyzing "generic art styles" so I wouldn't exactly say they're good examples that specifically counter your argument. What they fail to account is how they're actually implemented in the first place. The first choice (Yuusha) is intended at exactly coming across as being a typical fantasy hero tale, when in fact, so far it's turning out to be a semi-deconstruction/deviation of such cliched tropes. It certainly makes sense WHY they'd pick a "generic" style, especially considering the very nature of the show. On the other hand, the second choice is exactly the thing that the first one is trying to deconstruct (namely the cliched fantasy-style story) so the similarities were only a consequence of the very nature of the two shows, not necessarily a sign of the art style's failings. |
ronriJan 17, 2013 3:02 AM
katsucats said: jal90 said: I wouldn't say a show needs to be stylistically unique, but it does bug me when they're pretty much building characters off templates. A show with a generic art style is not bad per se, but it cannot be considered "good" when it lacks personality so much that it becomes distracting.-An argument of lack of originality alone can't be held as a definition for the lack of art quality. One can follow a massive trend and still bring a good and efficient work. The idea that something needs to be stylistically separated from the rest to be good and that this quality automatically makes it better than "generic-looking" shows bugs me. Here's a character I swear I've seen in a million anime. First up is the Hero from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha: Next up is Kirito from Sword Art Online: Okay, I'll give credit where it's due: they changed the eye color... Not saying you're wrong, but:    They don't all look the same. Don't cherry-pick, be fair if you're trying to argue. |
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| ^To be fair, katsucats wasn't trying to argue on the state of new anime, but on the global condition of generic looking styles. I haven't seen the shows so I don't know if ronri's specifications are right, though. |
jal90 said: ^To be fair, katsucats wasn't trying to argue on the state of new anime, but on the global condition of generic looking styles. I haven't seen the shows so I don't know if ronri's specifications are right, though. Heck, as if it weren't already obvious, the main character of Maoyuu Maou Yuusha is named as "Yuusha" (literally "hero"). Reading the synopsis of either is enough to give an idea about the two shows (save for the fact that Sword Art Online is more focused on a fantasy RPG vibe as opposed to its sci-fi-sounding premise): http://myanimelist.net/anime/14833/Maoyuu_Maou_Yuusha http://myanimelist.net/anime/11757/Sword_Art_Online |
ronriJan 17, 2013 3:10 AM
jal90 said: ^To be fair, katsucats wasn't trying to argue on the state of new anime, but on the global condition of generic looking styles. I haven't seen the shows so I don't know if ronri's specifications are right, though. Oh, sorry didn't get that. But let's be fair here, he said he's seen it in a million anime, but only managed to get SAO. |
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hentai_proxy said: 9988 said: but today even between protagonist, no way to tell them apart other than different eye color, hair mainly, it does not hel like as mentioned above, anime share the same story with little differences over and over again. Do you seriously believe that, or is this an exaggeration for the sake of the argument? You know the answer, evidently not all, but happens with a good portion that makes the bulk of anime, refer to katsucats and the feeling we have of seeing the same charter design in that other series too, for the story refer to harem, fanserice, oniichan , imoutou series and tell me its not the same, of sure, is the subtle minor differences are enough to not consider them the same you wont agree then. And katsucats feel free to post generic desings of older anime as well that we felt we sw numerous times. Please dont cheat and come up with revered Osamu Tezuka's Star System that uses the same characters desings for all works. @jal90 @ronri Fair enough, I got that, and further answer was given above, I get what he meant, and I dont disagree at all, its very rational and sane perspective, I do the same, I am not asking for people to skip anime based oneras, on the contrary, I do the same as him and anime from alle eras: 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s , but what I wanted as someone exposed to older anime as well and with good elements to clearly say which era he finds better, which I am sure he has a preference as we all do. In my case as much as I love anime 60-90s over 2000s, despite so many series from the 2000s era I have loved, I have a favorite era as mentioned: 80s. Just as I am sure moe lovers will love the 2000s eras the most, time in which their fav series were born. Now as from moe defining this era, well, who says moe defined this era? Not me evidently, the fans of course, the fans that define which trends anime studios should follow, the fans the define which are the best sellers, what anime to produce, what elements should take preference, what art style should be created, and in this era they told anyone clear and loudly. I fail to see how you cannot see that moe is prevalent in most anime today, the culture of moe that boomed in this era in undeniable, how many times a day/month do you think moe is mentioned i¿on this forums or an arguments breaks over it? How is it not efinin that older anime has to adapt to the trends of this era, it has not affected every single series, YES, but it has affected a significant portion of it. In the 90s, can you say the highly intelligent and psychological and realistic designs did not define the era? And back then those trends did not end up being part of a good percentage of series, in the 90s it was the sheer success of series like Evangelion or Ghost in the Shell that defined the era, sound familiar to this era with Haruhi first and then K-ON? This is even bigger scale as I fail to remember such utter dominance of trends and elements of the moe culture making it to series that have or had little to do with it, do you remember the sheer number of eva or gits fans celebrating the birthday of shinji, asuka, the major? Do you see the shee number of moe lover celebrating their moe characters birthday today? Granted the internet was in baby steps but I honestly fail to see how someone can deny this is the era of moe and the moe culture. Do you remember directors, producers publicly stating their dislike to the dominant trends of the past? There was none as there was still a balance, but with what happened this era you saw a few figure clearly say they did not like it where it was going, just remember what happened with pyscho-pass and the moe banning, thats not something that happens with something that has no dominance over anything. Lets not go far, see this season and tell me what it is full off, better yet, tell me how many are not moe or fanservice or have no elements of them. ronri said: jal90 said: katsucats said: jal90 said: I wouldn't say a show needs to be stylistically unique, but it does bug me when they're pretty much building characters off templates. A show with a generic art style is not bad per se, but it cannot be considered "good" when it lacks personality so much that it becomes distracting.-An argument of lack of originality alone can't be held as a definition for the lack of art quality. One can follow a massive trend and still bring a good and efficient work. The idea that something needs to be stylistically separated from the rest to be good and that this quality automatically makes it better than "generic-looking" shows bugs me. Here's a character I swear I've seen in a million anime. First up is the Hero from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha: Next up is Kirito from Sword Art Online: Okay, I'll give credit where it's due: they changed the eye color... Yes, I agree this is a weak point in my argument. Anyway I don't think I expressed my idea well; what I mean is that originality alone can't be used to judge the quality of a work. It's just another factor that can be taken into account, but in the end what is important is the fusion between art and story, or art and mood. Both are taken out of context for the sole purpose of analyzing "generic art styles" so I wouldn't exactly say they're good examples that specifically counter your argument. What they fail to account is how they're actually implemented in the first place. The first choice (Yuusha) is intended at exactly coming across as being a typical fantasy hero tale, when in fact, so far it's turning out to be a semi-deconstruction/deviation of such cliched tropes. It certainly makes sense WHY they'd pick a "generic" style, especially considering the very nature of the show. On the other hand, the second choice is exactly the thing that the first one is trying to deconstruct (namely the cliched fantasy-style story) so the similarities were only a consequence of the very nature of the two shows, not necessarily a sign of the art style's failings. You simply fail to defend the generic-ness, I could come up with many examples but I am lazy, but simply put the generic designs you see there follow the most simple of reasons: maximize profits and reduce costs, generic characters constitute less work and it helps to easily mass produce the anime todays fans are happy with, everyone wins, and it wont change anytime soon judging by the comments of many here. For highly quality generic faces, look no further that kyoni, you you will see even their fans cannot help but note the faces all look the same since a while. Cannot blame them much myself as they tried with nichijou and it failed miserably. |
9988Jan 17, 2013 3:34 AM
| I prefer new art (especially moe art) than old art (the old art that I've liked so far is the one in Cowboy Bebop). I really don't care if they all look the same to me. As long as I like it, then I'll never get tired of it (although it would also be nice if I see different art styles once in a while). |
 My Youtube page: link |
ronri said: The fact that they even got the idea to deconstruct the "generic" hero archetype including the art style sort of proves my point. If the cliche wasn't recognizable, there would be nothing to deconstruct.Both are taken out of context for the sole purpose of analyzing "generic art styles" so I wouldn't exactly say they're good examples that specifically counter your argument. What they fail to account is how they're actually implemented in the first place. The first choice (Yuusha) is intended at exactly coming across as being a typical fantasy hero tale, when in fact, so far it's turning out to be a semi-deconstruction/deviation of such cliched tropes. It certainly makes sense WHY they'd pick a "generic" style, especially considering the very nature of the show. On the other hand, the second choice is exactly the thing that the first one is trying to deconstruct (namely the cliched fantasy-style story) so the similarities were only a consequence of the very nature of the two shows, not necessarily a sign of the art style's failings. yhunata said: So you're going to throw out a continuum fallacy, huh? How many do I have to list to satisfy you? If it was 3, you'd say, "He only managed to get 3." If it was 4, you'd say, "He only managed to get 4." I only needed to show 1 pair of of generic character design to demonstrate what I'm talking about -- the fact that 2 main characters look almost exactly the same.Oh, sorry didn't get that. But let's be fair here, he said he's seen it in a million anime, but only managed to get SAO. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
9988 said: Fair enough, I got that, and further answer was given above, I get what he meant, and I dont disagree at all, its very rational and sane perspective, I do the same, I am not asking for people to skip anime based oneras, on the contrary, I do the same as him and anime from alle eras: 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s , but what I wanted as someone exposed to older anime as well and with good elements to clearly say which era he finds better, which I am sure he has a preference as we all do. In my case as much as I love anime 60-90s over 2000s, despite so many series from the 2000s era I have loved, I have a favorite era as mentioned: 80s. Just as I am sure moe lovers will love the 2000s eras the most, time in which their fav series were born. And I guess my favorite era overall is the 70s, according to MalGraph statistics. Anyway I just don't feel comfortable picking one decade over the other because assuming that everything is inherently equal in terms of style and quality is probably the wrongest thing to do. I mean, I love the Studio Ghibli works from the 80s but I don't see how they define the era better than Captain Tsubasa, which I hate. 9988 said: Now as from moe defining this era, well, you accept it as well, who says moe defined this era? Not me evidently, the fans of course, the fans that define which trends anime studios should follow, the fans the define which are the best sellers, what anime to produce, what elements should take preference, what art style should be created, and in this era they told anyone clear and loudly. I ail to see how you cannot see that moe is prevalent in most anime today, the culture of moe that boomed in this era in undeniable, how many tiems a day/month do you think moe is mentioned i¿on this frums or an arguments breaks over it? How is it not efinin that older anime has to adapt to the trends of this era, it has not affected every single series, YES, but it has affected a siginficant portion of it. I didn't say that moe didn't define this era. I guess in a similar way than how the Western literature adaptations defined the 70s, the mecha shows defined the 80s and the psychological twist shows defined the 90s. Denying the existence of trends is absurd. What I don't agree with is that this trend is inherently inferior, and that it doesn't allow for a lot of effective differentiation. 9988 said: In the 90s, can you say the highly intelligent and psychological and realistic designs did not define the era? And back then those trends did not end up being part of a good percentage of series, in the 90s it was the sheer success of series like Evangelion or Ghost in the Shell that defined the era, sound familiar to this era with Haruhi first and then K-ON? This is even bigger scale as I fail to remember such utter dominance of trends and elements of the moe culture making it to series that have or had little to do with it, do you rember the sheer number of eva or gits fans celebrating the birthday of shinji, asuka, the major? Granted the internet ws in baby steps but I honeslt failt to see how someone can deny this is the era of moe and the moe culture. To be honest, I have always defended the idea of Haruhi as one of the most original and potentially mold-breaking of the last ten years or so. Just because it takes overused elements doesn't mean it isn't trying to find its own style by mixing them. The premise alone is as twisted and fucked up as you can get; time travelling and physics mixed with daily school life, clichéd moe characters who are actually very stylized versions of science fiction prototypes (an alien performed by the typical quite girl? A shy/generic ecchi heroine girl being actually an expert time traveller? A bitch with tsundere manners who is able to rule the world unconsciously and create complicated paradoxical situations as a consequence of her state of mind?). |
| @9988 Fair enough on the moe trend, but a specific trend in art styles does not make the art style inferior itself as jal90 just pointed out. 9988 said: Lets not go far, see this season and tell me what it is full off, better yet, tell me how many are not moe or fanservice or have no elements of them. Fanservice is questionable, as some shows may or may not use them extensively (not to mention we can't even know for sure if a new show would necessarily have a large abundance of fanservice). Heck some of them might even be used for stylistic purposes (eg. Sasami-san@Ganbaranai). Fanservice doesn't even make sense in the context of arguing about art styles, as a show can have a fanciful art style while still giving fanservice. Still, I'll humor you anyway so I tried this out and this is what I got (only TV series, as I won't even bother with movies):             |
ronriJan 17, 2013 3:38 AM
jal90 said: This is true. Haruhi, for me, was the one that defined the after school club genre that so many other anime have tried to imitate in its footsteps. I don't know if any such anime preceded it, there must have... But these days whenever I see an anime about a hesitant MC getting dragged to weird after school club, I roll my eyes. Medaka Box. Senkyo to Chocolate. Clannad. SKET Dance. Hyouka was the only one in recent memory that held my interest.To be honest, I have always defended the idea of Haruhi as one of the most original and potentially mold-breaking of the last ten years or so. Just because it takes overused elements doesn't mean it isn't trying to find its own style by mixing them. The premise alone is as twisted and fucked up as you can get; time travelling and physics mixed with daily school life, clichéd moe characters who are actually very stylized versions of science fiction prototypes (an alien performed by the typical quite girl? A shy/generic ecchi heroine girl being actually an expert time traveller? A bitch with tsundere manners who is able to rule the world unconsciously and create complicated paradoxical situations as a consequence of her state of mind?). |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Lets see of this example, i found here on the forums, author style? Definitely not the Tezukas Star system, much better examples like katsucats´s one, but well, its fun at least: |
9988Jan 17, 2013 3:51 AM
9988 said: Lets see of this example, i found here on the forums, author style? Definitely not the Tezukas Star system: I was kinda hoping you'd answer back on my reply regarding your request, but oh well. 9988 said: Cannot blame them much myself as they tried with nichijou and it failed miserably. Firstly, I'm actually enjoying Nichijou so far, and comedy is always subjective anyway and secondly: 9988 said: You simply fail to defend the generic-ness, I could come up with many examples but I am lazy, but simply put the generic designs you see there follow the most simple of reasons: maximize profits and reduce costs, generic characters constitute less work and it helps to easily mass produce the anime todays fans are happy with, everyone wins, and it wont change anytime soon judging by the comments of many here. Don't twist my words, I wasn't defending your perpetrated views of "generic-ness", I was specifically defending the very nature of the first show that's being used as an example considering the way it was taken out of context, making your entire statement pretty much beside the point. Not to mention the fact that it was blatant cherry-picking. And thirdly: 9988 said: You simply fail to defend the generic-ness Really? Really now? Are we really going to resort to these kinds of statements? |
ronriJan 17, 2013 3:58 AM
raidenhc said: I missed 17 pages of conversation, so this might have been brought up already. Brought up, discussed, beaten to death with a horse even. Still, it's something that definitely needs to be mentioned considering how all these new posts are popping in after such a long while. |
| Yes. I definitely agree artworks of anime have gone down to such generic cheesy mess after 2000. I thinks use of computer for the animation is the main problem. Animator nowaday just copy and paste everything without any real drawing talents. I also don't get why modern Japanese prefer "effeminate" looking male characters. Anyway: I prefer the "bad-ass" looking old style.  Over this "pussy" looking modern style. Here's my two cent  |
| Isn't the Fist of the North Star drawing style a mere consequence of the 70s/early 80s violence exploitation in media? I'm just asking, never watched the show, but if we talk about trends... |
nekovision said: Yes. I definitely agree artworks of anime have gone down to such generic cheesy mess after 2000. I thinks use of computer for the animation is the main problem. Animator nowaday just copy and paste everything without any real drawing talents. I also don't get why modern Japanese prefer "effeminate" looking male characters. Anyway: I prefer the "bad-ass" looking old style. Over this "pussy" looking modern style. Here's my two cent I might be wrong (and I stand corrected if I am) but aren't those two images from totally different genres of anime ?? + the top one seems like a cover image while the second is a screenshot... covers art is always more detailed |
nekovision said: I also don't get why modern Japanese prefer "effeminate" looking male characters. Hmm, I don't know. Why do girls like Justin Beiber? |
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ronri said: 9988 said: Lets see of this example, i found here on the forums, author style? Definitely not the Tezukas Star system: I was kinda hoping you'd answer back on my reply regarding your request, but oh well. 9988 said: Cannot blame them much myself as they tried with nichijou and it failed miserably. Firstly, I'm actually enjoying Nichijou so far, and comedy is always subjective anyway and secondly: 9988 said: You simply fail to defend the generic-ness, I could come up with many examples but I am lazy, but simply put the generic designs you see there follow the most simple of reasons: maximize profits and reduce costs, generic characters constitute less work and it helps to easily mass produce the anime todays fans are happy with, everyone wins, and it wont change anytime soon judging by the comments of many here. Don't twist my words, I wasn't defending your perpetrated views of "generic-ness", I was specifically defending the very nature of the first show that's being used as an example considering the way it was taken out of context, making your entire statement pretty much beside the point. Not to mention the fact that it was blatant cherry-picking. And thirdly: 9988 said: You simply fail to defend the generic-ness Really? Really now? Are we really going to resort to these kinds of statements? What do you want me to answer, you first argued that there as no dominance and moe/fanservice and its elements did not define this era, in which I told you look no further and lest take a look at this season and see what -elements/trend/genres- dominate, we were not discussing the art styles in this "challenge", I have clearly stated my perspective that my bigger gripe is what I perceive as generic and clearly said the epitome of generic stuff for me is in moe, fanservice, ecchi and harem. Now you clearly dont agree with my perspective, so thats that. Now, lets see at the series with clear elements of pandering, moe, fanservice, in any level: -AKB0048 Next Stage -Puchim@s -Ai Mai Mii -Mangirl! -Yama no Susume -Cuticle Detective Inaba - includes loli moe girl and too boot more generic protagonists -D.C.III: Da Capo III -Maoyuu Maou Yuusha - more generic stuff, art style, characters, story told many times before -Love Live! School Idol Project -Minami-ke Tadaima -OreShura -Senran Kagura -Jigoku Youchien - moe and loli trends -GJ-bu _Tamako Market -Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai Next -gdgd Fairies- -Kotoura-san -Sasami-san at Ganbaranai - pandering but fun -Mondaiji-tachi ga Isekai kara Kuru Sou Desu yo? -Vividred Operation -Ebiten: Kouritsu Ebi Sugawa Koukou Tenmonbu OAD -Courtesy of Zettai Karen Children - trends of loli vs no virtually no elemts of fanservice/moe/pandering/ecchi -Beast Saga -Ganbare! Oden-kun -Amnesia - reverse harem thou -Bakumatsu Gijinden Roman -Ishida to Asakura -- I like the effort at unique character designs . ugly for many i guess - Hakkenden generic however -Chihayafuru 2 - only really excellent series this season (for me) See? What was the problem then? This is what I was trying to say by go no further and llok at this season and your counter arguments against the utter dominance of moe and fanservice trends NIchijou: Who said anything about the series itself? In the context I was clearly referring to art style, and I said the kyoni trying it failed miserably as it was not well received. In another post I even said this effort from kyonai at doing anything different in the art style department was much welcomed. |
9988Jan 17, 2013 4:34 AM
9988 said: See? What was the problem then? This is what I was trying to say by go no further and llok at this season and your counter arguments against the utter dominance of moe and fanservice trends I already agreed that the trend is dominant, rather my main point is how its prevalence is not what makes the art style inherently inferior, which was the point of discussion of the thread anyway. Even then, as I have already displayed, it's entirely unfair to judge an art style based solely on character design, nowadays even the context and the nature of the show is something that should be accounted for especially in regards to the art styles (character design, cinematography, backgrounds etc.) of certain anime shows. It's what makes this whole thread redundant in the first place, since the whole beginning point of the thread was based on a very elitist view about how different eras have "better" art styles through the use of cherry-picked character designs, when in fact, art is very much subjective. 9988 said: NIchijou: Who said anything about the series itself? In the context I was clearly referring to art style, and I said the kyoni trying it failed miserably as it was not well received. In another post I even said this effort from kyonai at doing anything different in the art style department was much welcomed. Well in that regard then, I'll just say that my views on the art style are pretty much the same, in that its minimalist approach is something that I very much enjoyed (at least in regards to the minimalist, highly caricatured style of the character designs). Art is subjective, and in that regard, I'd argue that Nichijou certainly did not fail simply because it looked "simple". |
ronriJan 17, 2013 4:54 AM
Carnival_Corpse said: nekovision said: Yes. I definitely agree artworks of anime have gone down to such generic cheesy mess after 2000. I thinks use of computer for the animation is the main problem. Animator nowaday just copy and paste everything without any real drawing talents. I also don't get why modern Japanese prefer "effeminate" looking male characters. Anyway: I prefer the "bad-ass" looking old style. [img]http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/10/39002.jpg[mg] Over this "pussy" looking modern style. Here's my two cent [img]http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/11/94770.jpg[img] I might be wrong (and I stand corrected if I am) but aren't those two images from totally different genres of anime ?? + the top one seems like a cover image while the second is a screenshot... covers art is always more detailed First one is from a battle-shonen, 2nd one is from a action/ecchi show. Or better put, its cherry picking. Cherry picking sure is fun. |
| Didn't read the whole thread so don't know if this was mentioned or not. The new style of anime ditched realism in my opinion. It's all about fanservice now, artist draw anime based what the viewers want to see. That's why the eyes keep getting bigger and prettier. Exaggeration of what people want to see. Also the color is more vivid. Anime was meant to be fantasized so I like the new style better. |
rederoin said: First one is from a battle-shonen, 2nd one is from a action/ecchi show. Or better put, its cherry picking. Cherry picking sure is fun. LOL, pretty much. Also love that artwork of Kirei and Kiritsugu. XD |
ronri said: 9988 said: See? What was the problem then? This is what I was trying to say by go no further and llok at this season and your counter arguments against the utter dominance of moe and fanservice trends I actually answered back on that on the same post, something of which I hope you've taken note of. While I agreed that the trend is dominant, its prevalence is not what makes it inherently inferior. 9988 said: NIchijou: Who said anything about the series itself? In the context I was clearly referring to art style, and I said the kyoni trying it failed miserably as it was not well received. In another post I even said this effort from kyonai at doing anything different in the art style department was much welcomed. Well in that regard then, I'll just say that my views on the art style are pretty much the same, in that its minimalist approach is something that I very much enjoyed (at least in regards to the highly caricatured style of the character designs). Art is subjective, and in that regard, I'd argue that Nichijou certainly did not fail simply because it looked "simple". ronri said: 9988 said: See? What was the problem then? This is what I was trying to say by go no further and llok at this season and your counter arguments against the utter dominance of moe and fanservice trends I actually answered back on that on the same post, something of which I hope you've taken note of. While I agreed that the trend is dominant, its prevalence is not what makes it inherently inferior. 9988 said: NIchijou: Who said anything about the series itself? In the context I was clearly referring to art style, and I said the kyoni trying it failed miserably as it was not well received. In another post I even said this effort from kyonai at doing anything different in the art style department was much welcomed. Well in that regard then, I'll just say that my views on the art style are pretty much the same, in that its minimalist approach is something that I very much enjoyed (at least in regards to the highly caricatured style of the character designs). Art is subjective, and in that regard, I'd argue that Nichijou certainly did not fail simply because it looked "simple". @ ronri @ jal90 Thanks for the answer jal90, so the data show where you have given higher scores then. Guess I am too used to divide anime in eras. Respected your opinions, @ ronri well, the issue is not exclusively the dominance, if the dominance was good in my eyes I would more than happy as current fans are, problem is in my eyes current trends are a totally inferior in many aspects, in order of importance for me: story | characters | visual style so evidently I am not happy at the utter doiminace of those elements in many a majority of series, if you look even if they dont are exclusively moe/fanservice series many still have elements in some degree to appeal to the disc buyeres, so for me a balance is broken there and too much of anythign si bad. I feel like going to the only restaurant in town and most dishes as salty because today patrons like salty food and want more ad more and more and more than more food needs to have a leve of salt to appeal to them, now it cant be helped as that is what the majority of people wants, but till know in anime in my eyes there used to be a balance thats there is not anymore, eminagnam said: 9988 said: In my case as much as I love anime 60-90s over 2000s, The problem is it seems most of 60-80s anime are unfamiliar to the majority of this forum. Indeed, that's why as I said I dont think people here can like and prefer what they dont know or are unfamiliar with, and agree with the comments that art style is never enough to ditch something, but its is what contemporary fans do and the art style us an argument to not like older anime, not like you can force them of course or anything. That the reason I was hoping for the comments of fans not only of newer anime which evidently by default will says they prefer newer anime but of fans familiar with older and new, jal90 answer let us see knowing both worlds even things out at least. |
jkun said: men from the 90's  men from the 00's onwards  please Japan, make more MEN and stop creating GIRLY characters that are wimps... i hope you know in Japan over muscled uber macho men are Homo Sexual Stereotypes right |
| "If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine" When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one For the Union makes us strong |
| It's probably a culture shift for the "ideal man". Before masculinity and short hair were mainstream. Now the ideal men changed to long styled hair and men who can dress. Sort of like a pretty boy thing. |
DateYutaka said: i hope you know in Japan over muscled uber macho men are Homo Sexual Stereotypes right what do you mean "uber macho" ? you mean ... men? males are not supposed to look like they wear makeup and have tears in their eyes when things get tough |
p2kEddie said: It's probably a culture shift for the "ideal man". Before masculinity and short hair were mainstream. Now the ideal men changed to long styled hair and men who can dress. Sort of like a pretty boy thing. well, women who like girly boys are just confused lesbians |
jkun said: men from the 90's men from the 00's onwards please Japan, make more MEN and stop creating GIRLY characters that are wimps... Harima Kenji is the essence of a REAL MAN then. I agree. |
| Moe sells, that's all they want, but I like the classic arts/drawing better, those like inuyasha or ranma 1/2 By the way, does the art of Cross Game considered old? Or is it modern-ish? |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
9988 said: @ ronri @ jal90 Thanks for the answer jal90, so the data show where you have given higher scores then. Guess I am too used to divide anime in eras. Respected your opinions, @ ronri well, the issue is not exclusively the dominance, if the dominance was good in my eyes I would more than happy as current fans are, problem is in my eyes current trends are a totally inferior in many aspects, in order of importance for me: story | characters | visual style so evidently I am not happy at the utter doiminace of those elements in many a majority of series, if you look even if they dont are exclusively moe/fanservice series many still have elements in some degree to appeal to the disc buyeres, so for me a balance is broken there and too much of anythign si bad. I feel like going to the only restaurant in town and most dishes as salty because today patrons like salty food and want more ad more and more and more than more food needs to have a leve of salt to appeal to them, now it cant be helped as that is what the majority of people wants, but till know in anime in my eyes there used to be a balance thats there is not anymore, NOTE: I added extra bits to my previous post for better clarification. While I don't feel as bitter about it as you do (at least based on how you sound like from the way you're describing it), but I agree with this to a certain degree. Now to be perfectly fair, I'd attribute this "issue" more with the general mass-production and expansion of the anime industry. As such, it's no surprise why such shows can come across as being generic. Hence why I wouldn't necessarily declare this as something that's necessarily a negative though, rather it's only an issue if you're truly bothered from feeling over-saturated by such shows. I choose to pick what I deem as potentially interesting, and an art style (be it moe or even fanservicey) isn't enough to deter me from trying it out. For example, the Monogatari franchise has both elements, but are they terrible shows? I wouldn't say so. In fact, I find that they pull them off with a certain flair and tongue-in-cheek style that puts them on a level above the norm. |
eminagnam said: 9988 said: In my case as much as I love anime 60-90s over 2000s, The problem is it seems most of 60-80s anime are unfamiliar to the majority of this forum. eminagnam said: 9988 said: In my case as much as I love anime 60-90s over 2000s, The problem is it seems most of 60-80s anime are unfamiliar to the majority of this forum. Agreed, which is why I was looking for the answer of someone familiar with older and newer anime as well, one cannot like and prefer what one doe snot know or is familiar with. |
| Women will like any that's mainstream and cool. Including guys. Hence why bimbos date douchebag mainstreamers. |
9988Jan 17, 2013 5:32 AM
rederoin said: Or better put, its cherry picking. Cherry picking sure is fun. The guy who made that image obviously never watched Sailor Moon. |
| This community is terrible. |
| There's so many images in there that I forgot which position were you trying to defend, 9988. By the way, I have that Mima as an avatar in another forum. |
jal90 said: There's so many images in there that I forgot which position were you trying to defend, 9988. Yeah I'm a bit lost on that one. Not gonna lie, I actually think the vast majority of the pics look great in their own right. |
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