| Its not like its rare for a anime to not have fantasy elements or SoL elements. Hell, most shows in the west also have elements of either of those 2 genre's. But its not like Spice & wolf and gosick(for example) would be any different(aside from city names) without the fantasy elements. The only "fantasy" element in gosick is a fictional country in Europa in which the story takes place. And some just barely have any fantasy(or sci-fi) elements to them, like gunslinger girl(experimental cyborgs) But kaiji, akiga, 30-sai no Hoken Taiiku, monster, black lagoon, one outs and candy boy have neither of those. |
| I think anime should drive greater focus on anime beyond the two genres, because as a medium, it tells stories in far more sophisticated and mature ways than western animation. It's also a much larger industry. I need to watch Spice and Wolf. I heard it was good. |
Abdarrell said: I think anime should drive greater focus on anime beyond the two genres, because as a medium, it tells stories in far more sophisticated and mature ways than western animation. It's also a much larger industry. I need to watch Spice and Wolf. I heard it was good. The problem is that its very very easy for a show to belong to either of those 2. This goes for all series/movies in this world. |
jal90 said: developing the daily lives of characters in contrast with a conflict growing is something so common in fiction nowadays that trying to pack it as a genre is probably absurd. This. OP has way too vague definitions of what counts as "SoL" and "fantasy". Anime lacks strict realism because there are countless J/K-drama out there for people who look for more reality. It's just cheaper and easier to do all the things OP is looking for in live action. Anime gives room for imagination and variation which very often is used to venture to the supernatural side as the possibilities there are endless. Another strong point of anime is the art, and how cute it can be made, which leads to cute girls. Abdarrell said: Anime can tell fun, comedic stories outside the two genres. Care to give an example? |
IDex said: jal90 said: developing the daily lives of characters in contrast with a conflict growing is something so common in fiction nowadays that trying to pack it as a genre is probably absurd. This. OP has way too vague definitions of what counts as "SoL" and "fantasy". Anime lacks strict realism because there are countless J/K-drama out there for people who look for more reality. It's just cheaper and easier to do all the things OP is looking for in live action. Anime gives room for imagination and variation which very often is used to venture to the supernatural side as the possibilities there are endless. Another strong point of anime is the art, and how cute it can be made, which leads to cute girls. Abdarrell said: Anime can tell fun, comedic stories outside the two genres. Care to give an example? Durarara!!'s writers were exceptional. It is told in a fun, lighthearted way, it also doesn't distinguish itself as cute. I was a bit disappointed with the premise though. Again, I need to watch more to recommend more. I've received great recommendations thus far, so I believe it can and has been done. I clarified over and over what I specifically mean with the two genres. I don't think they are general. I think the uniform focus on fantasy and imagination is great. It's just overdone. A little more anime separate from the genres, painted with the imaginative art anime brings to storytelling, would be welcomed. |
AbdarrellAug 12, 2012 1:57 PM
Abdarrell said: IDex said: jal90 said: developing the daily lives of characters in contrast with a conflict growing is something so common in fiction nowadays that trying to pack it as a genre is probably absurd. This. OP has way too vague definitions of what counts as "SoL" and "fantasy". Anime lacks strict realism because there are countless J/K-drama out there for people who look for more reality. It's just cheaper and easier to do all the things OP is looking for in live action. Anime gives room for imagination and variation which very often is used to venture to the supernatural side as the possibilities there are endless. Another strong point of anime is the art, and how cute it can be made, which leads to cute girls. Abdarrell said: Anime can tell fun, comedic stories outside the two genres. Care to give an example? Durarara!!'s writers were exceptional. It is told in a fun, lighthearted way, it also doesn't distinguish itself as cute. I was a bit disappointed with the premise though. Again, I need to watch more to recommend more. I've received great recommendations thus far, so I believe it can and has been done. DRRR! has fantasy elements. And just becease it can be done, does not mean it will be done or should be. But it seems you keep ignoring the fact that this does not only go for anime, it goes for all TV media/movies/series. So why single-out anime? extremely realistic shows are more fit for live-action than anime, so if you want that, go watch those live-action shows. |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: IDex said: jal90 said: developing the daily lives of characters in contrast with a conflict growing is something so common in fiction nowadays that trying to pack it as a genre is probably absurd. This. OP has way too vague definitions of what counts as "SoL" and "fantasy". Anime lacks strict realism because there are countless J/K-drama out there for people who look for more reality. It's just cheaper and easier to do all the things OP is looking for in live action. Anime gives room for imagination and variation which very often is used to venture to the supernatural side as the possibilities there are endless. Another strong point of anime is the art, and how cute it can be made, which leads to cute girls. Abdarrell said: Anime can tell fun, comedic stories outside the two genres. Care to give an example? Durarara!!'s writers were exceptional. It is told in a fun, lighthearted way, it also doesn't distinguish itself as cute. I was a bit disappointed with the premise though. Again, I need to watch more to recommend more. I've received great recommendations thus far, so I believe it can and has been done. DRRR! has fantasy elements. And just becease it can be done, does not mean it will be done or should be. But it seems you keep ignoring the fact that this does not only go for anime, it goes for all TV media/movies/series. So why single-out anime? extremely realistic shows are more fit for live-action than anime, so if you want that, go watch those live-action shows. I know DRRR! has fantasy elements. I said I was disappointed with the premise. I single out anime because it can offer sophisticated, compelling stories separate from the two genres, unlike western TV animation, and it has already been done. I single out anime because I like anime. I like the art. And if it can go in more directions, isn't it narrow-minded to say it shouldn't? If it is dominated by fantasy and SOL, I don't think it should remain that way forever. For instance, even realistic story ideas, like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. |
AbdarrellAug 12, 2012 2:31 PM
Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: IDex said: jal90 said: developing the daily lives of characters in contrast with a conflict growing is something so common in fiction nowadays that trying to pack it as a genre is probably absurd. This. OP has way too vague definitions of what counts as "SoL" and "fantasy". Anime lacks strict realism because there are countless J/K-drama out there for people who look for more reality. It's just cheaper and easier to do all the things OP is looking for in live action. Anime gives room for imagination and variation which very often is used to venture to the supernatural side as the possibilities there are endless. Another strong point of anime is the art, and how cute it can be made, which leads to cute girls. Abdarrell said: Anime can tell fun, comedic stories outside the two genres. Care to give an example? Durarara!!'s writers were exceptional. It is told in a fun, lighthearted way, it also doesn't distinguish itself as cute. I was a bit disappointed with the premise though. Again, I need to watch more to recommend more. I've received great recommendations thus far, so I believe it can and has been done. DRRR! has fantasy elements. And just becease it can be done, does not mean it will be done or should be. But it seems you keep ignoring the fact that this does not only go for anime, it goes for all TV media/movies/series. So why single-out anime? extremely realistic shows are more fit for live-action than anime, so if you want that, go watch those live-action shows. I know DRRR! has fantasy elements. I said I was disappointed with the premise. I single out anime because I know it does tell more compelling stories away from the two genres, unlike western TV animation. I single out anime because I like anime. I like the art. And if it can go in more directions, isn't it single-minded to say it shouldn't? If it is dominated by fantasy and SOL, I don't think it should remain that way forever. For instance, I think an intense anime about mountain climbing could be fun to watch. Anime isen't the only form of story-telling dominated by fantasy and SoL elements, all forms of story-telling are(the fictional kind) Western TV/K-J TV series can also tell compelling stories, it has nothing with where its from. Why is Japan the country that can tell the most compelling stories? can nobody in the west be at the same level as somebody from Japan? Why would anime be better at creating a series without any SoL or fantasy elements? It makes no logical sense. |
Abdarrell said: like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. Which western animation or tv shows/movies can also do. Why does it have to be anime? I understand it for the fantasy-heavy stuff, in anime like gunslinger girl, or anime with cute things in them.. but that idea? |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. Which western animation or tv shows/movies can also do. Why does it have to be anime? I understand it for the fantasy-heavy stuff, in anime like gunslinger girl, or anime with cute things in them.. but that idea? Because maybe I prefer anime as a form of storytelling, over a live-action movie, or book. Some people prefer books over movies. Others podcasts over movies. I like Anime, in many cases, above other forms. People have preferences. It doesn't make 'logical' sense for you to pin your preferences, of perhaps anime as a fantasy medium or SOL, on everybody else. Why not depict Grave of the Fireflies, a Ghibli film set in World War 2, as a live action movie? It wouldn't be the same. That's why. |
AbdarrellAug 12, 2012 2:28 PM
Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. Which western animation or tv shows/movies can also do. Why does it have to be anime? I understand it for the fantasy-heavy stuff, in anime like gunslinger girl, or anime with cute things in them.. but that idea? Because maybe I prefer anime as a form of storytelling, over a live-action movie, or book. Some people prefer books over movies. Others podcasts over movies. I like Anime, in many cases, above other forms. People have preferences. It doesn't make 'logical' sense for you to pin your preferences, of perhaps anime as a fantasy medium or SOL, on everybody else. Why not depict Grave of the Fireflies, a Ghibli film set in World War 2 as a life action movie? It wouldn't be the same. That's why. Ok, another question. Why is it so important for it be from Japan? But to answer the thread, you're in the minority. Its a simple fact that all story-telling, in the both the future and history, will include either fantasy elements(no matter how small, like in Gunslinger girl), or SoL elements(Which applies to every sitcom ever made, and a ton of live-action tv shows) |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. Which western animation or tv shows/movies can also do. Why does it have to be anime? I understand it for the fantasy-heavy stuff, in anime like gunslinger girl, or anime with cute things in them.. but that idea? Because maybe I prefer anime as a form of storytelling, over a live-action movie, or book. Some people prefer books over movies. Others podcasts over movies. I like Anime, in many cases, above other forms. People have preferences. It doesn't make 'logical' sense for you to pin your preferences, of perhaps anime as a fantasy medium or SOL, on everybody else. Why not depict Grave of the Fireflies, a Ghibli film set in World War 2 as a life action movie? It wouldn't be the same. That's why. Ok, another question. Why is it so important for it be from Japan? But to answer the thread, you're in the minority. Its a simple fact that all story-telling, in the both the future and history, will include either fantasy elements(no matter how small, like in Gunslinger girl), or SoL elements(Which applies to every sitcom ever made, and a ton of live-action tv shows) Because Anime is Japanese... that is where the industry lives. So you're telling me that's the way it is. And I know that now. I asked whether the two genres dominate, and you say yes. I think that's a problem. And I didn't know MAL elected you as ambassador to teach me how many people agree or disagree with me. |
AbdarrellAug 12, 2012 2:37 PM
Abdarrell said: Because Anime is Japanese... that is where the industry lives. Its just animation from Japan, thats all it is. The rest of the world can also animate stuff, the only difference is that its a huge industry in Japan. But its not like any other country does not have the funds or talent to do it. So you're telling me that's the way it is. And I know that now. I asked whether the two genres dominate, and you say yes. I think that's a problem. I never said the 2 genre's dominate, its becease they are not genre's. "elements" would be a better term for it. Fantasy elements can be found in the "game", "fantasy", "supernatural", "superpower", and "sci-fi" genre's(and a bunch more, I assume). SoL elements can be found in, well.. most genre's.. Including the genre's listed above. |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: Because Anime is Japanese... that is where the industry lives. Its just animation from Japan, thats all it is. The rest of the world can also animate stuff, the only difference is that its a huge industry in Japan. But its not like any other country does not have the funds or talent to do it. So you're telling me that's the way it is. And I know that now. I asked whether the two genres dominate, and you say yes. I think that's a problem. I never said the 2 genre's dominate, its becease they are not genre's. "elements" would be a better term for it. Fantasy elements can be found in the "game", "fantasy", "supernatural", "superpower", and "sci-fi" genre's(and a bunch more, I assume). SoL elements can be found in, well.. most genre's.. Including the genre's listed above. If I prefer Japanese Anime, an enormous industry, over Azerbaijan Anime, an non-existant industry, I don't need you questioning me on why I prefer one to another. I just do. Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. |
Abdarrell said: Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. If you acteally read your own thread, you would have noticed I have you a few example's of those. You're speaking of fantasy and SoL as elements, not genre's. Sci-fi shows are not fantasy shows, but they do have fantasy elements(for example). So your term of "fantasy" already includes 5 genre's by itself. thus the statement of "Most anime belongs to 2 genre's" is simply false. I don't need to have seen a lot of anime or read a lot of manga(the source material for a lot of anime) to know this. Becease the same also applies to western TV/live-action Japanese TV. I actually find it to hard to think of a western tv show without any fantasy or SoL elements. |
| Kawaii desudesudesudesu Kimochi desudesudesu Moe desudesudesu This is the future of anime. Deal with it. Cute girls doing cute things is the best. There are tons of older anime with action and blood and deep psychological mumbo jumbo all over the place. Complaints will be allowed when you have run out of those to watch. |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. If you acteally read your own thread, you would have noticed I have you a few example's of those. You're speaking of fantasy and SoL as elements, not genre's. Sci-fi shows are not fantasy shows, but they do have fantasy elements(for example). So your term of "fantasy" already includes 5 genre's by itself. thus the statement of "Most anime belongs to 2 genre's" is simply false. I don't need to have seen a lot of anime or read a lot of manga(the source material for a lot of anime) to know this. Becease the same also applies to western TV/live-action Japanese TV. I actually find it to hard to think of a western tv show without any fantasy or SoL elements. ^This. We've been trying to tell you this all along, but finally someone thought of how to put it into words. Fantasy, as a genre, contains such shows as Inuyasha, Dragonball Z...etc. Fantasy is defined as taking place in another world or dimension. Often times with different rules of science or progression of technology, in which there is an epic quest involved. This whole time, you've been saying that anything that can't happen in real life is automatically included in the Fantasy genre. Which is wrong. Then you mention the other extreme...Slice of life...so basically you have expanded the genre's to cover every known piece of entertainment in the world. Real life or not real life. You need to be more specific if you want help. |
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Abdarrell said: For instance, even realistic story ideas, like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. You know, this would much likely end up following the structure of slice of life. If you are going to make a series just about mountain climbing, the only element that can get the attention of the audience after a while is the process. The process implies characters interacting and developing through the adventure, spending hours and hours living together in their base camp. |
Bobbypick said: Kawaii desudesudesudesu Kimochi desudesudesu Moe desudesudesu This is the future of anime. Deal with it. Cute girls doing cute things is the best. There are tons of older anime with action and blood and deep psychological mumbo jumbo all over the place. Complaints will be allowed when you have run out of those to watch. Not that I have anything to complain about, but people generally want their preferred genres with current art styles/ animation. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
jal90 said: Abdarrell said: For instance, even realistic story ideas, like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. You know, this would much likely end up following the structure of slice of life. If you are going to make a series just about mountain climbing, the only element that can get the attention of the audience after a while is the process. The process implies characters interacting and developing through the adventure, spending hours and hours living together in their base camp. I never actually thought of it in that way, it seems more series have SoL elements than I thought. |
Post-Josh said: Bobbypick said: Kawaii desudesudesudesu Kimochi desudesudesu Moe desudesudesu This is the future of anime. Deal with it. Cute girls doing cute things is the best. There are tons of older anime with action and blood and deep psychological mumbo jumbo all over the place. Complaints will be allowed when you have run out of those to watch. Not that I have anything to complain about, but people generally want their preferred genres with current art styles/ animation. Seems like a personal problem. They might need some sort of counseling. A psychiatrist, perhaps. |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. If you acteally read your own thread, you would have noticed I have you a few example's of those. You're speaking of fantasy and SoL as elements, not genre's. Sci-fi shows are not fantasy shows, but they do have fantasy elements(for example). So your term of "fantasy" already includes 5 genre's by itself. thus the statement of "Most anime belongs to 2 genre's" is simply false. I don't need to have seen a lot of anime or read a lot of manga(the source material for a lot of anime) to know this. Becease the same also applies to western TV/live-action Japanese TV. I actually find it to hard to think of a western tv show without any fantasy or SoL elements. I guess I made a mistake. Whether declared specifically as a genre or story element, fantasy's and moe's prevalence in anime is undeniable. I misunderstood the difference between genre and story element in anime, but that changes nothing. Both dominate, and a step in a different direction, away from the fantasy and moe would be welcome to the medium. jal90 said: Abdarrell said: For instance, even realistic story ideas, like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. You know, this would much likely end up following the structure of slice of life. If you are going to make a series just about mountain climbing, the only element that can get the attention of the audience after a while is the process. The process implies characters interacting and developing through the adventure, spending hours and hours living together in their base camp. I mentioned Durarara!! over and over as an anime that essentially is slice of life. That's okay. You can't tell any story without delving into character's lives. I emphasized in the OP, "cute", I've stated over and over, "cute" characters, and MAL users corrected me on page 1 of the correct term, Moe. A fun, intense, comedic story about mountain climbing, or survival, or snowboarding could be told without moe, with different art styles. I was just recommended Kaiji on my profile. It peers into a character's life, but steps away from moe. Again, I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms regarding these things. |
AbdarrellAug 12, 2012 4:38 PM
Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. If you acteally read your own thread, you would have noticed I have you a few example's of those. You're speaking of fantasy and SoL as elements, not genre's. Sci-fi shows are not fantasy shows, but they do have fantasy elements(for example). So your term of "fantasy" already includes 5 genre's by itself. thus the statement of "Most anime belongs to 2 genre's" is simply false. I don't need to have seen a lot of anime or read a lot of manga(the source material for a lot of anime) to know this. Becease the same also applies to western TV/live-action Japanese TV. I actually find it to hard to think of a western tv show without any fantasy or SoL elements. I guess I made a mistake. Whether declared specifically as a genre or story element, fantasy's and moe's prevalence in anime is undeniable. I misunderstood the difference between genre and story element in anime, but that changes nothing. Both dominate, and a step in a different direction, away from the fantasy and moe would be welcome to the medium. jal90 said: Abdarrell said: For instance, even realistic story ideas, like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. You know, this would much likely end up following the structure of slice of life. If you are going to make a series just about mountain climbing, the only element that can get the attention of the audience after a while is the process. The process implies characters interacting and developing through the adventure, spending hours and hours living together in their base camp. I mentioned Durarara!! over and over as an anime that essentially is slice of life. That's okay. You can't tell any story without delving into character's lives. I emphasized in the OP, "cute", I've stated over and over, "cute" characters, and MAL users corrected me on page 1 of the correct term, Moe. A fun, intense, comedic story about mountain climbing, or survival, or snowboarding could be told without moe, with different art styles. I was just recommended Kaiji on my profile. It peers into a character's life, but steps away from moe. Again, I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms regarding these things. As far as story elements go, they do dominate. But its hard not to have a fantasy elements. As something as simple as the experimental cyborgs in Gunslinger girl means it has such a element. Even though the anime itself is about the lives of those girls and there handlers and nothing else in it can be considert fantasy. Same goes for Gosick, the only fantasy element of that anime is that it "created" a country in Europa and that WWII starts at a different date. And if you take away all the SoL elements, aside from the cute stuff, then it would mean that they dominate less than you think. Seeing as that would add Welcome to the NHK to my list. |
rederoinAug 12, 2012 4:58 PM
Abdarrell said: I mentioned Durarara!! over and over as an anime that essentially is slice of life. That's okay. You can't tell any story without delving into character's lives. I emphasized in the OP, "cute", I've stated over and over, "cute" characters, and MAL users corrected me on page 1 of the correct term, Moe. A fun, intense, comedic story about mountain climbing, or survival, or snowboarding could be told without moe, with different art styles. I was just recommended Kaiji on my profile. It peers into a character's life, but steps away from moe. Again, I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms regarding these things. Well, anything can be told without moe. But now that I get what you want I think most of my first list is valid for what you are looking for. If you accept the premise of a sci-fi show as the presence of unreal (fantastic) elements based on scientific theories and suppositions, you can watch those I labelled as sci-fi in my list without further problems. You can add Kino's journey to the list so. And Only Yesterday or Whisper of the heart, they are slice of life movies in a realistic setting with an important element of romance, but they don't get into the typical clichés you would probably associate with the moe style. Hope any of those recommendations fits your tastes, and sorry for the continuous misunderstandings! |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. If you acteally read your own thread, you would have noticed I have you a few example's of those. You're speaking of fantasy and SoL as elements, not genre's. Sci-fi shows are not fantasy shows, but they do have fantasy elements(for example). So your term of "fantasy" already includes 5 genre's by itself. thus the statement of "Most anime belongs to 2 genre's" is simply false. I don't need to have seen a lot of anime or read a lot of manga(the source material for a lot of anime) to know this. Becease the same also applies to western TV/live-action Japanese TV. I actually find it to hard to think of a western tv show without any fantasy or SoL elements. I guess I made a mistake. Whether declared specifically as a genre or story element, fantasy's and moe's prevalence in anime is undeniable. I misunderstood the difference between genre and story element in anime, but that changes nothing. Both dominate, and a step in a different direction, away from the fantasy and moe would be welcome to the medium. jal90 said: Abdarrell said: For instance, even realistic story ideas, like an intense anime about mountain climbing could be very fun to watch. You know, this would much likely end up following the structure of slice of life. If you are going to make a series just about mountain climbing, the only element that can get the attention of the audience after a while is the process. The process implies characters interacting and developing through the adventure, spending hours and hours living together in their base camp. I mentioned Durarara!! over and over as an anime that essentially is slice of life. That's okay. You can't tell any story without delving into character's lives. I emphasized in the OP, "cute", I've stated over and over, "cute" characters, and MAL users corrected me on page 1 of the correct term, Moe. A fun, intense, comedic story about mountain climbing, or survival, or snowboarding could be told without moe, with different art styles. I was just recommended Kaiji on my profile. It peers into a character's life, but steps away from moe. Again, I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms regarding these things. "but that changes nothing" Yes, it does. Becease most anime do not belong to moe or fantasy genre. As far as story elements go, they do dominate. But its hard not to have a fantasy elements. As something as simple as the experimental cyborgs in Gunslinger girl means it has such a element. Even though the anime itself is about the lives of those girls and there handlers and nothing else in it can be considert fantasy. Same goes for Gosick, the only fantasy element of that anime is that it "created" a country in Europa and that WWII starts at a different date. And if you take away all the SoL elements, aside from the cute stuff, then it would mean that they dominate less than you think. Seeing as that would add Welcome to the NHK to my list. It changes nothing because fantasy and moe dominate the anime industry. I simply used the wrong term. And I don't create anime. No anime director or manga-ka ever told me the difficulty of creating stories without fantasy and moe. Just because other art styles and story elements aren't pursued does not mean approaching such styles and elements is difficult. jal90 said: Abdarrell said: I mentioned Durarara!! over and over as an anime that essentially is slice of life. That's okay. You can't tell any story without delving into character's lives. I emphasized in the OP, "cute", I've stated over and over, "cute" characters, and MAL users corrected me on page 1 of the correct term, Moe. A fun, intense, comedic story about mountain climbing, or survival, or snowboarding could be told without moe, with different art styles. I was just recommended Kaiji on my profile. It peers into a character's life, but steps away from moe. Again, I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms regarding these things. Well, anything can be told without moe. But now that I get what you want I think most of my first list is valid for what you are looking for. If you accept the premise of a sci-fi show as the presence of unreal (fantastic) elements based on scientific theories and suppositions, you can watch those I labelled as sci-fi in my list without further problems. You can add Kino's journey to the list so. And Only Yesterday or Whisper of the heart, they are slice of life movies in a realistic setting with an important element of romance, but they don't get into the typical clichés you would probably associate with the moe style. Hope any of those recommendations fits your tastes, and sorry for the continuous misunderstandings! No problem. I will happily check out your recommendations. Thanks for being a good sport! |
Abdarrell said: re-read my post, I'm not including moe. I'm talking about fantasy elements, and you simply will never have many shows without them, no matter how small or un-noticeable they are(gosick, gunslinger girl). But they are however still plenty of shows with them. A minority, sure, but what you you're looking for is a niche. Not many writers have a reasons to add atleast 1 minor fantasy element to the story, to make it more intresting or for whatever reason(gunslinger girl & gosick are good example's of that, gosick wouldn't even be that much different with its fantasy element). In several cases, the fantasy element will barely affect the anime, or it will be very "soft-fantasy". |
rederoinAug 12, 2012 5:12 PM
| In my opinion, moe and fantasy elements are what makes anime anime. It just gives it that certain charm. It's tradmark. It's fanservice, but it's been a part of anime since the 80's. They don't dominate, they're merely attatched in an unseperable way. There are shows out there without them. But they don't really feel like anime. They just seem like a cartoon that could've been made anywhere (Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad, I'm looking at you). You don't like anime, you just like the drawing style. |
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ClampLover said: In my opinion, moe and fantasy elements are what makes anime anime. It just gives it that certain charm. It's tradmark. It's fanservice, but it's been a part of anime since the 80's. They don't dominate, they're merely attatched in an unseperable way. There are shows out there without them. But they don't really feel like anime. They just seem like a cartoon that could've been made anywhere (Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad, I'm looking at you). You don't like anime, you just like the drawing style. Hmm? I love Anime. You can't tell me whether I like or dislike it. But to reiterate again, I wrote on page one and later on that I do like both styles, I just wish our dearest anime directors and manga-ka chose to portray anime in different ways, and offer story elements beyond the common. |
| I'll say this... sure anime is dominated by these two "genre" or "elements". But the only reason that is so is because this is what the fans want (through the eyes of the industry)... If the reinforcement was not there from the fans in the first place, then something else would dominate the industry... So, overall, it is not really a problem unless you are saying the tastes of others is a problem... The more popular anime tend to be moe or fantasy, so many studios are trying to cater to the audience that enjoy this stuff, as it is natural to do so if you are a business. Without the reinforcement from the fans, there wouldn't be as much moe or fantasy anime out there. So if you don't enjoy such anime, there isn't much to be done until the majority of fans change what they like to watch. All you can do to get more diverse anime is not watch moe/fantasy and support those different anime. Then recommend these different anime to others and hope these different anime get vastly popular. Other than that, there isn't much to do about something that many people don't see as a problem... |
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ClampLover said: In my opinion, moe and fantasy elements are what makes anime anime. It just gives it that certain charm. It's tradmark. It's fanservice, but it's been a part of anime since the 80's. They don't dominate, they're merely attatched in an unseperable way. There are shows out there without them. But they don't really feel like anime. They just seem like a cartoon that could've been made anywhere (Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad, I'm looking at you). You don't like anime, you just like the drawing style. Uhm no. You just say that because you are used to see those kind of things in anime because they are actually dominate. Anime just means the drawing style. I never got the feeling of "this doesn't feel like anime" when watching Kaiji for example. |
| I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? |
Abdarrell said: I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? No, it doesn't. Unless you're implying that most fiction is "immature", becease adding fantasy elements, no matter how small, to a series/movie is far from uncommon. And even if its more common in anime, how exactly does that more it more immature? |
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? No, it doesn't. Unless you're implying that most fiction is "immature", becease adding fantasy elements, no matter how small, to a series/movie is far from uncommon. Fiction isn't immature. But i think anime is a fiction dominant medium. Thus, alongside the fictional nuances that you mention, we also receive many strongly fictional works. Works with greater focus on the supernatural, which oftentimes it just feels a bit immature for older viewers. And I don't want it to. |
| Well, going back to the discussion, they are more "elements" than "genres". There is no such thing as a "moe genre" and probably a "fantasy genre" will always be subject to another genre because it doesn't say anything by itself about the treatment of the story. They are secondary, that is, the main purpose of a moe comedy will still be to make laugh, and a fantasy drama will still be trying to make us get teary eyed. That's probably the main point of disagreement I've had with Abdarren (changing "moe" with "slice of life", which is a far more widespread resource) through the whole thread, I will stand by my position that there's nothing wrong or frustrating at the presence of these elements because they don't hinder the potential variety in storytelling, character interaction and in the thematic and driving genre of the story, be it drama, romance, comedy or adventure. But well, there are many shows that fit his claims so I guess the purpose of the thread is going well (I'm assuming that he doesn't consider stylistic fantasy (cartoony expressions) as something to avoid). And to be fair he didn't say that he didn't enjoy these elements, but that they were dominating in the industry and that was frustrating, I guess because of the lack of variety. He has K-On! better rated than me... |
jal90 said: Well, going back to the discussion, they are more "elements" than "genres". There is no such thing as a "moe genre" and probably a "fantasy genre" will always be subject to another genre because it doesn't say anything by itself about the treatment of the story. They are secondary, that is, the main purpose of a moe comedy will still be to make laugh, and a fantasy drama will still be trying to make us get teary eyed. That's probably the main point of disagreement I've had with Abdarren (changing "moe" with "slice of life", which is a far more widespread resource) through the whole thread, I will stand by my position that there's nothing wrong or frustrating at the presence of these elements because they don't hinder the potential variety in storytelling, character interaction and in the thematic and driving genre of the story, be it drama, romance, comedy or adventure. But well, there are many shows that fit his claims so I guess the purpose of the thread is going well (I'm assuming that he's not considering stylistic fantasy (cartoony expressions)). And to be fair he didn't say that he didn't enjoy these elements, but that they were dominating in the industry and that was frustrating, I guess because of the lack of variety. He has K-On! better rated than me... I really appreciate your posts. You are understanding me well. And I think what you said here makes sense. Perhaps the theme matters less than the emotions the show elicits from the viewer. Maybe the immaturity of a show's concept is worth it if it can draw emotion, fear, angst, elation. |
Abdarrell said: I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? Hmm... not necessarily... The medium is a cartoon. As a whole, it isn't a good idea to generalize a medium because it brings up inaccuracies. Also "immature" is not a good term to use to describe it because it is such a relative term. Some think that any "cartoonish" art form is "immature". Others think that sitcoms are "immature". As you can see, "immature" not quite a good word to use here. |
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Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? No, it doesn't. Unless you're implying that most fiction is "immature", becease adding fantasy elements, no matter how small, to a series/movie is far from uncommon. Fiction isn't immature. But i think anime is a fiction dominant medium. Thus, alongside the fictional nuances that you mention, we also receive many strongly fictional works. Works with greater focus on the supernatural, which oftentimes is a bit immature for older viewers. I'd say every sort of entertainment is somewhat fiction based. Not like Transformers or Spiderman is the most realistic story you've heard but it's entertaining. Nonetheless it is true that the overuse of supernatural things can come off as immature but I'd like to give you a very prominent counterexample, Fate/Zero. Everything about this show is supernatural and 100% fiction and completely unrealistic but for the sake of the argument you can't tell me that something about this show is in any way immature. "People die when they are killed" ...oh wait...the retarded half brother calls... ;) I think you should just enjoy the good supernatural anime and ignore all what feels immature to you. And to help you out looking for some more realistic and not heavily supernatural animes, I'd hand out some names. Reading 3 pages of this thread so far I've been surprised no one mentioned Nana or I missed it. If you are bored of the standard moe drama, "cute girls doing cute things", "everything is happy" and whatnot watch Nana. For me it was so far the most downright realistic drama to come out of anime. In the same spirit I'd recommend Rec for a realistic and mature drama, it's short so easy to handle. Just today I started Aoi Bungaku Series which should appeal to you as a very mature anime, it's very good so far. |
ZylixaeAug 12, 2012 6:01 PM
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Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? No, it doesn't. Unless you're implying that most fiction is "immature", becease adding fantasy elements, no matter how small, to a series/movie is far from uncommon. Fiction isn't immature. But i think anime is a fiction dominant medium. Thus, alongside the fictional nuances that you mention, we also receive many strongly fictional works. Works with greater focus on the supernatural, which oftentimes it just feels a bit immature for older viewers. And I don't want it to. That doesn't make a lot of sense, maybe the heavy fantasy stuff. But not really for the other stuff.. But I don't think that applies to all fantasy elements, I have mentioned gunslinger girl many times, to explain the anime in sentence : Its about a bunch of pre-teen girls, who get brainwashed and get turned into cyborgs(which is experimental), and they get turned into assassins. The "cyborg" part being the fantasy element here, so how does that make it that anime/manga look immature? The cyborg part was simply needed for the story to work(Its not possible for girls that young to become assassins without it). If anything, it would be more un-realistic if they weren't cyborgs. Also, most "fiction" has fantasy elements in it, no matter how small. |
rederoinAug 12, 2012 6:20 PM
rederoin said: Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: I love anime, but if the focus remains on fantasy and moe, and that's what the majority wants, does that make this medium immature in some respect? Or the people? Or neither? No, it doesn't. Unless you're implying that most fiction is "immature", becease adding fantasy elements, no matter how small, to a series/movie is far from uncommon. Fiction isn't immature. But i think anime is a fiction dominant medium. Thus, alongside the fictional nuances that you mention, we also receive many strongly fictional works. Works with greater focus on the supernatural, which oftentimes it just feels a bit immature for older viewers. And I don't want it to. That doesn't make a lot of sense, maybe the heavy fantasy stuff. But I don't think that applies to all fantasy elements, I have mentioned gunslinger girl many times, to explain the anime in sentence : Its about a bunch of pre-teen girls, who get brainwashed and get turned into cyborgs(which is experimental), and they get turned into assassins. The "cyborg" part being the fantasy element here, so how does that make it that anime/manga look immature? The cyborg part was simply needed for the story to work(Its not possible for girls that young to become assassins without it). If anything, it would be more un-realistic if they weren't cyborgs. Also, most "fiction" has fantasy elements in it, no matter how small. It seems like a lot of things don't make a lot of sense to you. You never tell people what didn't make sense. I am losing the patience to repeat myself in different ways so you understand. Your gunslinger girl reference does not sound like fantasy to me. To experiment and transform someone into a cyborg is within reason. So what's the problem? I never told you the anime was fantasy. Perhaps it's an exception. |
Abdarrell said: It seems like a lot of things don't make a lot of sense to you. You never tell people what didn't make sense. I am losing the patience to repeat myself in different ways so you understand. Your gunslinger girl reference does not sound like fantasy to me. To experiment and transform someone into a cyborg is within reason. So what's the problem? I never told you the anime was fantasy. Perhaps it's an exception. You're the one who doesn't make any sense. First with the whole genre thing, and now this. Don't tell you also meant another type of "fantasy" element, which would even further increase the amount of anime that do not fit into either categories. So what exactly do mean with "fantasy" elements. The cyborg part is a fantasy element. Sci-fi contains fantasy elements(We don't/its not yet possible, thus it does not exist in the real world). To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say at this point. First its genre's, then its 2 "elements"(which, by definition, belong to 6+ genre's), and now you're saying you ment another type of "fantasy"? Gunslinger girl is not a fantasy, I never said that. It does however have "fantasy" elements(no matter how small they are). |
Vanisher said: ClampLover said: In my opinion, moe and fantasy elements are what makes anime anime. It just gives it that certain charm. It's tradmark. It's fanservice, but it's been a part of anime since the 80's. They don't dominate, they're merely attatched in an unseperable way. There are shows out there without them. But they don't really feel like anime. They just seem like a cartoon that could've been made anywhere (Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad, I'm looking at you). You don't like anime, you just like the drawing style. Uhm no. You just say that because you are used to see those kind of things in anime because they are actually dominate. Anime just means the drawing style. I never got the feeling of "this doesn't feel like anime" when watching Kaiji for example. Eh...I disagree. But this is a very subjective topic, so, whatev. ps- it's "dominant*' |
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rederoin said: Abdarrell said: It seems like a lot of things don't make a lot of sense to you. You never tell people what didn't make sense. I am losing the patience to repeat myself in different ways so you understand. Your gunslinger girl reference does not sound like fantasy to me. To experiment and transform someone into a cyborg is within reason. So what's the problem? I never told you the anime was fantasy. Perhaps it's an exception. You're the one who doesn't make any sense. First with the whole genre thing, and now this. Don't tell you also meant another type of "fantasy" element, which would even further increase the amount of anime that do not fit into either categories. So what exactly do mean with "fantasy" elements. The cyborg part is a fantasy element. Sci-fi contains fantasy elements(We don't/its not yet possible, thus it does not exist in the real world). To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say at this point. First its genre's, then its 2 "elements"(which, by definition, belong to 6+ genre's), and now you're saying you ment another type of "fantasy"? Gunslinger girl is not a fantasy, I never said that. It does however have "fantasy" elements(no matter how small they are). I would still call them genres. But you convinced me they are properly called "elements." Don't pin the word change on me. I changed it because you convinced me I was using the wrong word to describe fantasy's inclusion in anime. Which was beside the point anyway. I knew what I meant at the beginning of the topic, and no matter how many times I keep repeating it to you, you never understand. Flip back a couple pages and go over where I explain what it means. Either way, you've spent a lot of time on this topic. But all you've done is attempted to correct me and complain how nothing makes sense to you. I have lost the patience to debate with you further. |
Abdarrell said: rederoin said: Abdarrell said: It seems like a lot of things don't make a lot of sense to you. You never tell people what didn't make sense. I am losing the patience to repeat myself in different ways so you understand. Your gunslinger girl reference does not sound like fantasy to me. To experiment and transform someone into a cyborg is within reason. So what's the problem? I never told you the anime was fantasy. Perhaps it's an exception. You're the one who doesn't make any sense. First with the whole genre thing, and now this. Don't tell you also meant another type of "fantasy" element, which would even further increase the amount of anime that do not fit into either categories. So what exactly do mean with "fantasy" elements. The cyborg part is a fantasy element. Sci-fi contains fantasy elements(We don't/its not yet possible, thus it does not exist in the real world). To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say at this point. First its genre's, then its 2 "elements"(which, by definition, belong to 6+ genre's), and now you're saying you ment another type of "fantasy"? Gunslinger girl is not a fantasy, I never said that. It does however have "fantasy" elements(no matter how small they are). I would still call them genres. But you convinced me they are properly called "elements." Don't pin the word change on me. I changed it because you convinced me I was using the wrong word to describe fantasy's inclusion in anime. Which was beside the point anyway. I knew what I meant at the beginning of the topic, and no matter how many times I keep repeating it to you, you never understand. Flip back a couple pages and go over where I explain what it means. Either way, you've spent a lot of time on this topic. But all you've done is attempted to correct me and complain how nothing makes sense to you. I have lost the patience to debate with you further. Thats good, becease I do not see the purpose of this either. Its not my fault you don't know how to explain yourself, but that is another issue. But since you didn't even bother to explain what exactly defines the fantasy "element", I really do not see the point of continuing with this. Becease if small fantasy things are not included in the definition, then the list of anime which lack either becomes a lot bigger. Which means the thread title is in-correct. But whatever, i'm just wasting my time typing this.. Not that I will be leaving this thread, this is actually kinda amusing. |
| Well, I guess I come late to the discussion, but no, fantasy is not by itself immature and not even in heavy fantasy stuff. Hey, Spirited away is a movie about a whole new world of magic creatures and it's one of the most complex, deep and multi-layered works that I have seen in anime. Princess Tutu is a magical girl in a fairytale setting which is quite often regarded as one of the most fascinating storylines in anime, because it doesn't use the genre clichés in a conventional way but explores, twists and deconstructs them. Paprika mixes reality with dreams and hallucinations and not only the narration is intended for adult viewers but the forcefulness of its satire is beyond doubt. In fact, I think it's easier to find in Japanese works a style of fantasy that is more based on spirituality and less child-pandering than how it's shown usually in Western media, simply because of the weight that legends and traditions still have there. Mushishi is an awesome example of this. |
jal90 said: Well, I guess I come late to the discussion, but no, fantasy is not by itself immature and not even in heavy fantasy stuff. Hey, Spirited away is a movie about a whole new world of magic creatures and it's one of the most complex, deep and multi-layered works that I have seen in anime. Princess Tutu is a magical girl in a fairytale setting which is quite often regarded as one of the most fascinating storylines in anime, because it doesn't use the genre clichés in a conventional way but explores, twists and deconstructs them. Paprika mixes reality with dreams and hallucinations and not only the narration is intended for adult viewers but the forcefulness of its satire is beyond doubt. In fact, I think it's easier to find in Japanese works a style of fantasy that is more based on spirituality and less child-pandering than how it's shown usually in Western media, simply because of the weight that legends and traditions still have there. Mushishi is an awesome example of this. An excellent point. I guess I deluded myself into thinking the medium was immature, because at face-value it is (especially if you tried explaining the premise to a friend). But as you said, you need to experience to know. Peel back the layers and you discover refreshingly complex, thematic stories. I agree (And thanks for the additional recommendations). |
Abdarrell said: [Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. What are you smoking? Grave of the Fireflies has SoL elements in it. The time the brother spents the sister in the outskirts, trying to make her happy. That is clearly slice of life. Besides, there are plenty of good WW II movies, series, books and documentaries around. A crapload of generic FPS games too, if you care about them. There are anime about it too, but personally I'm happy that there aren't more than there already is, even though I love movies like Das Boot. |
mecharobot said: Abdarrell said: [Fantasy and SOL, to you, appear to be elements of all anime. You have seen 71 anime. A small list, similar to myself. Anime can and does step beyond those two genres. Fantasy and SoL (as defined by its genre) are not elements of Grave of the Fireflies. What are you smoking? Grave of the Fireflies has SoL elements in it. The time the brother spents the sister in the outskirts, trying to make her happy. That is clearly slice of life. Besides, there are plenty of good WW II movies, series, books and documentaries around. A crapload of generic FPS games too, if you care about them. There are anime about it too, but personally I'm happy that there aren't more than there already is, even though I love movies like Das Boot. I thought someone would interpret SOL that way so I wrote (as defined by its genre), meaning its definition in anime--a focus on teen melodrama. Shows like K-On! are perfect examples. I never meant the phrase's technical meaning. Anyway, I learned a lot from this thread. It was certainly a roller-coaster ride. We can let this thread die because I received the information I asked for. |
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