Naruto Chapter 519 Discussion

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Feb 2010

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1. So Kabuto's resurrection jutsu can be countered by the soul's strong will? Interesting. Sasori smiling = somehow seem sweet :) Thought Sasori's "end" was actually kind of touching.

2. Naruto turning himself into a chibi fox = this was the part where I almost burst out laughing 8D

3. I love how the eight-tailed beast has (great) personality/character (and is not as insane) compared to the other tailed beasts.
-"The nine-tails isn't the type to sit down and talk things out" = Indeed.

4. Lol naruto...why did you just do that (making yourself throw up)???

5. I almost burst out laughing when Bee called Naruto a "crazy cracker" (not sure if its different in other translations but this was funny..)

6. Minato <3333 8D I wonder if his appearance here means that Bee has seen or met him before??

7.

bskbob said:
interesting chap and why should naruto learn new techniques when he have already have one of the strongest with rasengan. imo it's better he perfect rasengan before starting learning new jutsu.

I agree. Even though it would be more interesting to see Naruto master varying jutsu, Rasengan really fits him. I personally thought the whole Rasengan-based-on-tailed-beast-bomb was really and quite interesting. Who would have thought...?
(Wonder if anyone noticed the similarity b/w Rasengan and Kyuubi's attacks back in Pain arc before this chapter...)

Overall not a bad chapter (i even laughed a bit lol) which I haven't done in a while when reading Naruto.

Dec 3, 2010 8:44 AM

#55

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Feb 2010

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Fai said:
- Kishi, stop trying to make minato look cool.the whole kyuubi flashback turned anything in his coolness meter into negative value, making him into another whiny naruto. oh and apparantly everyone knows minato and kakashi and everyone have met them....yay?

.....
*lifts eyebrow*
When did Minato turn into "another whiny Naruto"? Maybe because I really like Minato but honestly thats kind of insulting (this does not mean that I think Naruto is whiny or lame)

Dec 3, 2010 8:50 AM

#56

AstuteOtaku

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Aug 2009

281

This chapter was really not that great >_>. I am mainly waiting until it gets animated, they will make the plot holes a little more realistic (they usually do). But at least any story that Kakashi, Sakura, and or Yamato I will enjoy to the fullest extent.

On a side note, was I the only one who geeked out at the new profile image for the manga? I LOVE it. Sakura looks amazing, Kakashi is just chillin' and being awesome, and Naruto is, well Naruto, what more can I ask for? I even went and made it my profile pic... after editing of course.

Dec 3, 2010 9:33 AM

#57

crazyspinz

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Aug 2010

1641

Could this be the technique Jiraya said Naruto should master before his death on Pain's hands??

I have a feeling Kabuto and Madara aren't going to strength there little 'friendship' at all. They know each others motives but in the end they will end up clashing in there 'brilliant' plan.

Kabuto lead Anko close to the hideout, still has her wrapped by a snake, and so far hasn't given us clues to what he's planning to do with her. I have a feeling Kabuto has big plans for her in this war. I wonder if she still has the curse mark??

Dec 3, 2010 9:45 AM

#58

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Jul 2008

1863

sallym613 said:

Fai said:
- Kishi, stop trying to make minato look cool.the whole kyuubi flashback turned anything in his coolness meter into negative value, making him into another whiny naruto. oh and apparantly everyone knows minato and kakashi and everyone have met them....yay?

.....
*lifts eyebrow*
When did Minato turn into "another whiny Naruto"? Maybe because I really like Minato but honestly thats kind of insulting (this does not mean that I think Naruto is whiny or lame)

He didn't, he was just shown as both a competent leader and father, Fai just likes making up things to bash Naruto, it's done weekly.

Dec 3, 2010 10:46 AM

#59

Roteki

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Sep 2009

415

He has a point concerning everyone knowing Minato and Kushina though. Seems like anyone who's important has a flashback with them in it. And Naruto making himself throw up was just another unnecessary reminder that he's dumb.

Dec 3, 2010 10:57 AM

#60

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Jul 2008

1863

He was the Hokage... If no one knew him I'd be quite worried.

Dec 3, 2010 11:31 AM

#61

DonKangolJones

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Aug 2008

3777

I liked this chapter for Naruto's buffoonery at least. I don't love this "loophole" in Kabutimaru's jutsu though. It will make sense for some, but it better not work on everybody. I don't wanna see some of these psychos keeling over from PEACE. We are going to have such a sugary sweet and mahou shoujo ending that it won't be funny.

Dec 3, 2010 11:58 AM

#62

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Feb 2010

914

BakaKawaii said:

sallym613 said:

Fai said:
- Kishi, stop trying to make minato look cool.the whole kyuubi flashback turned anything in his coolness meter into negative value, making him into another whiny naruto. oh and apparantly everyone knows minato and kakashi and everyone have met them....yay?

.....
*lifts eyebrow*
When did Minato turn into "another whiny Naruto"? Maybe because I really like Minato but honestly thats kind of insulting (this does not mean that I think Naruto is whiny or lame)

He didn't, he was just shown as both a competent leader and father, Fai just likes making up things to bash Naruto, it's done weekly.

Lol I already know that...I'm just questioning Fai's nonsensical comment.

BakaKawaii said:
He was the Hokage... If no one knew him I'd be quite worried.

I would too.

Dec 3, 2010 2:28 PM

#63

Han-yuu

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Jul 2010

2297

ok. naruto is upgrading rasingan to a cero rasingan type which he will shot with his mouth. so why lots of complains about this. when we are seeing the same thing in almost every shounen series out there.

naruto know kage bunshin and rasingan (+ rasin shuriken) which sucks because we saw those jutsus almost thousands times.

he learned sage technique with new summons (with two old frogs and all others) also he can now control kyubbi. if kishi give him a new technique called Black Cero. which he threw from his mouth in kyubbi mode. what will we get here? naruto is too damn over powered.

even though we saw the same thing even in one piece. right now luffy is using same upgraded techniques but ofcource he learned haki. which is great. but we are not sure if we will see another special technique beside haki in actual battle. so stop complaining. that's how shounen series work with one major technique. they can't give hero too much powerful techniques. same goes to bleach. after 3 months hidden training. we got final getsuga instead some new technique.

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Dec 3, 2010 2:59 PM

#64

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Mar 2010

651

Tsuki-Hime said:
ok. naruto is upgrading rasingan to a cero rasingan type which he will shot with his mouth. so why lots of complains about this. when we are seeing the same thing in almost every shounen series out there.

naruto know kage bunshin and rasingan (+ rasin shuriken) which sucks because we saw those jutsus almost thousands times.

he learned sage technique with new summons (with two old frogs and all others) also he can now control kyubbi. if kishi give him a new technique called Black Cero. which he threw from his mouth in kyubbi mode. what will we get here? naruto is too damn over powered.

even though we saw the same thing even in one piece. right now luffy is using same upgraded techniques but ofcource he learned haki. which is great. but we are not sure if we will see another special technique beside haki in actual battle. so stop complaining. that's how shounen series work with one major technique. they can't give hero too much powerful techniques. same goes to bleach. after 3 months hidden training. we got final getsuga instead some new technique.

And every manga that was not Bleach said main character's techinique Did decent damage.

Dec 3, 2010 3:36 PM

#65

Hitchens

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Jun 2010

1488

how come naruto needs two hands in this mode? in season 1 he did rasengan with one hand only against sasuke, when he only had one tail power

Dec 3, 2010 3:51 PM

#66

Nouver

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Jun 2009

641

Kyaa!!~ Naruto was cute in 9 tailed-transformation :3

New Rasengan looks badass, and the 4rth are a genius after all!

Dec 3, 2010 4:27 PM

#67

mundo

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Mar 2010

330

ssjmike92 said:
how come naruto needs two hands in this mode? in season 1 he did rasengan with one hand only against sasuke, when he only had one tail power

I didn't even think of that. Hello plothole.

Dec 3, 2010 6:18 PM

#68

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Mar 2010

651

mundo said:

ssjmike92 said:
how come naruto needs two hands in this mode? in season 1 he did rasengan with one hand only against sasuke, when he only had one tail power

I didn't even think of that. Hello plothole.

Not quite that was one of the few times that Naruto and Kyuubi was working together.

Dec 4, 2010 2:41 AM

#69

stickymochi

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Apr 2009

1498

Naruto still cracks me up. Indeed, both him and Bee are, eh, rather hilariously stupid?

Dec 4, 2010 3:42 AM

#70

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KantonKageX said:

mundo said:

ssjmike92 said:
how come naruto needs two hands in this mode? in season 1 he did rasengan with one hand only against sasuke, when he only had one tail power

I didn't even think of that. Hello plothole.

Not quite that was one of the few times that Naruto and Kyuubi was working together.

So Naruto will still need to hug Kyuubi and read him a book first :< aww, will he have his mommy and daddy help him this time, I wonder? or we will have some new characters that live in his mind for no reason at all.

sallym613 said:

Fai said:
- Kishi, stop trying to make minato look cool.the whole kyuubi flashback turned anything in his coolness meter into negative value, making him into another whiny naruto. oh and apparantly everyone knows minato and kakashi and everyone have met them....yay?

.....
*lifts eyebrow*
When did Minato turn into "another whiny Naruto"? Maybe because I really like Minato but honestly thats kind of insulting (this does not mean that I think Naruto is whiny or lame)

Let's see.
The flashback revealed to us that:
1. Minato can only spam his teleport and rasengan at anyone and has no creativity.
2. Minato is easily emotionally controlled which is a worst trait the supposed leader should have.
3. Minato's character portrayal changed from mysterious, confident and gifted leader to childish, crying, weak teenager who got chosen by his "strong" wife and had no kage qualities.
4. That Minato is basically Naruto, just without annoying orange jumpsuit or random whiskers.

Back in the part I, the kyuubi attack and Minato looked like one awesome event. You had a huge godly force of nature(usual Japanese shinto motif) which raged at the place where village of konoha was. The idea was painted as awesome battle with thousands of ninja dieing while trying to hold off the malevolent force of nature, comparable to tsunami. The idea was also that their leader showed his strengths and, as the last minute grasp at chance of saving the village he cared for, he sealed the fox in a boy, his son for mysterious reasons.

In this flashback we see a very unepic kyuubi attack caused by the guy who kishi seems to have ripped off from 20th Century Boys(although he forgot to rip off the awesomeness of Friend, while taking his design and atmosphere). Then we have this kid who could not protect his wife, tried to rasengan-rush the masked man and then suicided to seal the fox.

No casualties , no display of the fox power(i mean,seriously, kishi must hate his japanese roots or something, because kitsune, especially nine-tailed kitsune are very common elements of japanese folklore, yet he failed to even properly portray them).

The whole flashback was not about "omg how great Minato was, how big his sacrifice was and how Naruto will one day surpass his father by pure hard work". No. It was all about "omg how great Madara was, how Sauce and Naruto were destined for bromance even as babies and how Minato got uberpwned by Madara who is like, the smarted and most powerful hatred embodiment in the world~".

It was just another case at the thing Kishi specializes in - building up the hype for possible awesome and then completely destroying anything that could have been great in it.

So far the Part I kages trump over the part II kages all the way. Sarutobi was this awesome general, even sand kage was badass in flashbacks and looks. The new kages are purely....childish and exist purely as anvils for Kishimoto's pacifistic idealism and longing for the utopia of PEACEEE~.

Same with the current minato. I certainly not know on just what the kiddies nowadays count as "cool" (some people even love the bland things like Kratos), but Minato is certainly the antithesis of how my generation sees cool.

At my days, the cool leader was someone like Sarutobi from Naruto, Shimada Kambei from Samurai7, Askeladd and Thors from Vinland Saga.

Heck, even non-leader characters like aozaki sisteers(Touko and Aoko) from nasuverse, Gilgamesh from FSN or nanaya/tohno Shiki from tsukihime manga and eroge, would fit as great leader characters.

And that means that I am not comparing or bringing up the big guns, like characters from Black Company, Song of Ice and Fire, Dresden Files novel series....

All Minato did in his flashback was act as weak, unfitting leader and not as someone who is respected world-wide and who was spoken about in a good way by Third Hokage.

Dec 4, 2010 6:42 AM

#71

mikzflava

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Nov 2009

1505

This chapter was really good imo. But I can almost see narutos final form/jutsu; The Kyuubi-Sage Mode Oodama-RasenShuriken. Lmao if I predict the correct jutsu/form for him vs Sasuke or vs Madara.

Dec 4, 2010 7:11 AM

#72

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Mar 2010

651

Fai said:

KantonKageX said:

mundo said:

ssjmike92 said:
how come naruto needs two hands in this mode? in season 1 he did rasengan with one hand only against sasuke, when he only had one tail power

I didn't even think of that. Hello plothole.

Not quite that was one of the few times that Naruto and Kyuubi was working together.

So Naruto will still need to hug Kyuubi and read him a book first :< aww, will he have his mommy and daddy help him this time, I wonder? or we will have some new characters that live in his mind for no reason at all.

Let me guess then later Kyuubi will break into tears telling Naruto how much he wanted to protect him. While stabbing him in the chest

Fai said:

sallym613 said:

Fai said:
- Kishi, stop trying to make minato look cool.the whole kyuubi flashback turned anything in his coolness meter into negative value, making him into another whiny naruto. oh and apparantly everyone knows minato and kakashi and everyone have met them....yay?

.....
*lifts eyebrow*
When did Minato turn into "another whiny Naruto"? Maybe because I really like Minato but honestly thats kind of insulting (this does not mean that I think Naruto is whiny or lame)

Let's see.
The flashback revealed to us that:
1. Minato can only spam his teleport and rasengan at anyone and has no creativity.
2. Minato is easily emotionally controlled which is a worst trait the supposed leader should have.
3. Minato's character portrayal changed from mysterious, confident and gifted leader to childish, crying, weak teenager who got chosen by his "strong" wife and had no kage qualities.
4. That Minato is basically Naruto, just without annoying orange jumpsuit or random whiskers.

Back in the part I, the kyuubi attack and Minato looked like one awesome event. You had a huge godly force of nature(usual Japanese shinto motif) which raged at the place where village of konoha was. The idea was painted as awesome battle with thousands of ninja dieing while trying to hold off the malevolent force of nature, comparable to tsunami. The idea was also that their leader showed his strengths and, as the last minute grasp at chance of saving the village he cared for, he sealed the fox in a boy, his son for mysterious reasons.

In this flashback we see a very unepic kyuubi attack caused by the guy who kishi seems to have ripped off from 20th Century Boys(although he forgot to rip off the awesomeness of Friend, while taking his design and atmosphere). Then we have this kid who could not protect his wife, tried to rasengan-rush the masked man and then suicided to seal the fox.

No casualties , no display of the fox power(i mean,seriously, kishi must hate his japanese roots or something, because kitsune, especially nine-tailed kitsune are very common elements of japanese folklore, yet he failed to even properly portray them).

You missed Iruka's parents since according to you they slipped and broke their necks because of Madara hatred.

Fai
The whole flashback was not about "omg how great Minato was, how big his sacrifice was and how Naruto will one day surpass his father by pure hard work". No. It was all about "omg how great Madara was, how Sauce and Naruto were destined for bromance even as babies and how Minato got uberpwned by Madara who is like, the smarted and most powerful hatred embodiment in the world~".

It was just another case at the thing Kishi specializes in - building up the hype for possible awesome and then completely destroying anything that could have been great in it.
[/quote said:
No that Kubo's speciality For example everytime a Getsuga is thrown what has happened...

Nothing, no wait I think there's a scratch let me get a magnifiying glass.

Fai said:

So far the Part I kages trump over the part II kages all the way. Sarutobi was this awesome general, even sand kage was badass in flashbacks and looks. The new kages are purely....childish and exist purely as anvils for Kishimoto's pacifistic idealism and longing for the utopia of PEACEEE~.

Damn I know they should fighting forever and ever for all eternity just beacuse

Fai said:

Same with the current minato. I certainly not know on just what the kiddies nowadays count as "cool" (some people even love the bland things like Kratos), but Minato is certainly the antithesis of how my generation sees cool.

At my days, the cool leader was someone like Sarutobi from Naruto, Shimada Kambei from Samurai7, Askeladd and Thors from Vinland Saga.

Heck, even non-leader characters like aozaki sisteers(Touko and Aoko) from nasuverse, Gilgamesh from FSN or nanaya/tohno Shiki from tsukihime manga and eroge, would fit as great leader characters.

Sure Sarutobi was cool in the flashbacks but he basically killed himself and no im not talking about shiki fuujin he let Orochimaru get away allowing the Assuke to become he is now.

Same with the current minato. I certainly not know on just what the kiddies nowadays count as "cool" (some people even love the bland things like Kratos), but Minato is certainly the antithesis of how my generation sees cool.

At my days, the cool leader was someone like Sarutobi from Naruto, Shimada Kambei from Samurai7, Askeladd and Thors from Vinland Saga.

Heck, even non-leader characters like aozaki sisteers(Touko and Aoko) from nasuverse, Gilgamesh from FSN or nanaya/tohno Shiki from tsukihime manga and eroge, would fit as great leader characters.

And that means that I am not comparing or bringing up the big guns, like characters from Black Company, Song of Ice and Fire, Dresden Files novel series....

All Minato did in his flashback was act as weak, unfitting leader and not as someone who is respected world-wide and who was spoken about in a good way by Third Hokage.

Compared to Sarutobi's death Minato sucessfully saved his village, Sarutobi on the other hand just took Orochimaru's hands which could be partially overrided with a loophole.

KantonKageXDec 4, 2010 7:18 AM

Dec 4, 2010 7:16 AM

#73

Zell182

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Jul 2009

3911

Surprise, surprise Naruto is going to learn yet another rasengan technique O_o

Dec 4, 2010 7:26 AM

#74

SalumoN

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Dec 2009

288

Was it just me who got the idea of adding wind to the jinchuriki bomb thingy? That would be awesome! :P

Dec 4, 2010 11:18 AM

#75

mitamaking

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May 2007

2133

A bunch of explanations, and more proof Kabuto's technique is bad.

Rasengan, the gift that keeps on giving.

My anime list

Dec 4, 2010 12:00 PM

#76

Hitchens

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Jun 2010

1488

another thing, the 8 tails mentioned side effects of drawing too much of kyuubi's chakra.
but then we have seen naruto combining both the sage mode and kyuubi mode when in rage in front of nagato.
im not sure how to put this in the right words, but couldn't he combine the two forms and reduce/eliminate the side effects?

Dec 4, 2010 2:22 PM

#77

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Feb 2010

914

Fai said:

3. Minato's character portrayal changed from mysterious, confident and gifted leader to childish, crying, weak teenager who got chosen by his "strong" wife and had no kage qualities.

Show me the actual proof (from the manga) of your explanation of Minato's "character portrayal".

Dec 4, 2010 2:42 PM

#78

Rizzle

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Jul 2009

645

Merkul said:
I thought this chapter was awesome and I don't get why people are going uuuugh another rasengan, rasengan is one of the strongest moves in the series why wouldn't he try and use that in 9 tails mode?? It isn't like there wasn't an option for him to learn a new move but he can't get kyuubis co operation which has been something that comes up a lot, did you just want the kyuubi to be a little bitch and say yes sir when naruto wants something... ERM NO! All it is is moan moan moan UGHHHHH

QFT dude.

While another Rasengan is not what people wanted (myself included), its just common sense that he would attempt it in a higher mode. After all its a move that's proved effective, and he's used to using similar techniques in battle. They're in the middle of war, he doesn't have time to learn something completely different, and then become comfortable enough to use it in battle comfortably (without more plot holes, of course).

Yeah, in terms of entertainment value, Kishi effed this one up, but then again, you guys would be bitching just as hard if Kyuubi rolled over and cooperated.

Dec 4, 2010 7:54 PM

#79

Bio

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Apr 2008

731

silentknight0083 said:
All of the other ninja get to learn new types of techniques and styles, but this is the fourth time Naruto's learned the Rasengan. He's been using it ever since sasuke was still a kid in the leaf village. Learn the Rasengan. Learn the Rasengan with wind. Learn the wind rasengan with sage. Learn the rasengan with kyuubi chakra. Wish this kid could do something more spectacular than put the energy in your hand, spin it tight, and throw.

Seriously. The burst even makes sense as an attack to learn and would have been a fair addition. I can't understand why he's actually making a point of it just being rasengan again. The lack of variety in Naruto's attacks has always been a problem. It's part of why pretty much all the side characters are more interesting. Of course, I don't know why I'd think it would suddenly be otherwise. Naruto will be the least interesting character in Naruto right to the end.

The loophole in the impure resurrection is actually fine with me. It was such a bull, unfair technique that there really couldn't be any good way to beat it. Anything that means the enemy won't have to be killed again and again and again is good in my book.

Dec 4, 2010 11:52 PM

#80

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Jul 2007

23708

Bio said:

The loophole in the impure resurrection is actually fine with me. It was such a bull, unfair technique that there really couldn't be any good way to beat it. Anything that means the enemy won't have to be killed again and again and again is good in my book.

\

The problem starts when even the READER can in one second think up thousands of better ways out of the haxxness of that technique, than the one kishi chose.

Not to mention that this makes Third Hokage(aka the most epic character of this manga) look stupid because "he could not love up the first and second hokages".....

ssjmike92 said:
another thing, the 8 tails mentioned side effects of drawing too much of kyuubi's chakra.
but then we have seen naruto combining both the sage mode and kyuubi mode when in rage in front of nagato.
im not sure how to put this in the right words, but couldn't he combine the two forms and reduce/eliminate the side effects?

except that Kishimoto already forgot about sage mode even existing, just like he does with every other damn technique naruto learns.

Now its all back to the manga's biggest downside and convenient-power-up-device known as Kyuubi.

Dec 5, 2010 4:36 AM

#81

Roteki

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Sep 2009

415

Fai said:
Heck, even non-leader characters like aozaki sisteers(Touko and Aoko) from nasuverse, Gilgamesh from FSN or nanaya/tohno Shiki from tsukihime manga and eroge, would fit as great leader characters.

Completely off-topic, but do you seriously consider Gilgamesh from FSN a great leader? When he was alive he was a conceited and tyrannical ruler, his subjects rebelled feeling his reign was too harsh, while Anu, the King of Sumerian gods, recognized that his cruelty came from boredom of all things! During the 4th Holy Grail War he intended to cleanse the world of humanity, which he felt had become corrupted and vile, thus not worth of his reign (he wanted to rule a world inhabited with strong and dignified creatures, according to the Unlimited Blade Works route). He is an antagonist in all FSN scenarios, he is a selfish person and believes himself a god - exactly how would he make a good leader?

Unless I completely missed your point and you were talking about "lead-characters" instead of "leaders" I fail to see how you came to that conclusion.

ps. Historical information about Gilgamesh came from TYPE-MOON Wiki if anyone wonders.

RotekiDec 5, 2010 5:19 AM

Dec 5, 2010 5:57 AM

#82

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Jul 2007

23708

Bonar said:

Fai said:
Heck, even non-leader characters like aozaki sisteers(Touko and Aoko) from nasuverse, Gilgamesh from FSN or nanaya/tohno Shiki from tsukihime manga and eroge, would fit as great leader characters.

Completely off-topic, but do you seriously consider Gilgamesh from FSN a great leader? When he was alive he was a conceited and tyrannical ruler, his subjects rebelled feeling his reign was too harsh, while Anu, the King of Sumerian gods, recognized that his cruelty came from boredom of all things! During the 4th Holy Grail War he intended to cleanse the world of humanity, which he felt had become corrupted and vile, thus not worth of his reign (he wanted to rule a world inhabited with strong and dignified creatures, according to the Unlimited Blade Works route). He is an antagonist in all FSN scenarios, he is a selfish person and believes himself a god - exactly how would he make a good leader?

Unless I completely missed your point and you were talking about "lead-characters" instead of "leaders" I fail to see how you came to that conclusion.

ps. Historical information about Gilgamesh came from TYPE-MOON Wiki if anyone wonders.

and frankly, he was an awesome antagonist in fsn.

I am not looking at him through the lens of moral codes.

Despite being all that, character like that would still make a believable kage/shogun/whatever. In fact in the world portrayed by this manga in part I, it would have been a whole lot more likely than current tsuchikage or the current female-acid-kage.

Not to mention that character like that would have a lot more enjoyable story arc than "tsuchikage after 100 years of being a kage, converts to naruto-ism and peace because a little kid said so and they all happily go fight someone who read too many volumes of 20th century boys and his zombie army".

heck, you could eventually create 100+ chapter arc of such a character and it would not feel boring because the threat would manage to be threatening, evil, yet realistic.

Also his powers would look pretty damn awesome in possible massive wars to emerge from such a story.

Dec 5, 2010 6:25 AM

#83

Roteki

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Sep 2009

415

Fai said:
I am not looking at him through the lens of moral codes.

Ah, somehow I didn't notice that. Of course, if you disregard morals and his general attitude - he's awesome. I agree that the story about him would be nice, but an "evil" leader who stays that way apparently isn't that popular. I can't really come up with a manga/anime focusing on someone like that - evil protagonists tend to become good over time, or the focus isn't on their decisions but on action and/or romance.

Gilgamesh really shines as an enemy though. Ruthless, self-centred, powerful, evil, the list goes on. I agree that he would make a great leader, but he would need to lead people opposing the main character. He wouldn't be great because of his leadership, but because of his power and attitude. Like an evil tyrant who is disliked by everyone, but is strong enough to squash any thoughts of rebellion before they even start.

Yeah, Tsuchikage going all love-peace-alliance was really stupid, but I really wonder what can top Madara's zombie army on the bullshit scale. Though, maybe I should stay quiet, because it's almost guaranteed that something like that will happen...

Dec 5, 2010 7:14 AM

#84

Alicia3000

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Mar 2009

2116

I liked it thought it was good. Liked seeing Naruto but hate waiting for him to get into the action but then again nothings really happened yet.

Dec 5, 2010 11:18 PM

#85

Han-yuu

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Jul 2010

2297

Lots of hatred for Madara, Readers don't want to see him in story anymore. that's how antagonist should be.

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Dec 5, 2010 11:34 PM

#86

VARIAchan

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Oct 2008

7710

Meh.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.~

Dec 6, 2010 2:09 AM

#87

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

Tsuki-Hime said:
Lots of hatred for Madara, Readers don't want to see him in story anymore. that's how antagonist should be.

here is were you are terribly terribly wrong.

Villains, especially the final ones, should be threatening, compelling, terrifying. And readers should hate them f or what they did and for how they act.

Madara is not hated for that. Readers dont want Madara in the story because he is utterly boring one dimensional character who succeeds at everything due to ridiculous plot circumstances. At least with Aizen, readers KNEW he was not a final villain. Madara is fed to us and promoted with every chance Kishimoto gets, yet despite all of the hype Kishi tries to create, all it does is to cause even higher level of villain decay.

Madara is no Gilgaemsh, who would kill your favorite characters by taking their hearts out, who was complete sexist and selfish monster with no regard to anyone except himself.

Madara is no Aion from Chrno Crusade, who raped, manipulated, was hated and loved both by fans and characters, had a sad backstory yet remained a despicable incarnation of evil.

Madara is no Friend, upon which his design is based. Madara's mystery is not interesting, his manipulations and presence is not threatening or interesting.

Madara is not "hated" in a way villain should be. He is hatedin a way a bad quality character should be hated. Because he is a bad quality character.

Dec 6, 2010 4:36 AM

#88

Jesuvius

Offline

Jan 2009

779

Fai said:

Tsuki-Hime said:
Lots of hatred for Madara, Readers don't want to see him in story anymore. that's how antagonist should be.

here is were you are terribly terribly wrong.

Villains, especially the final ones, should be threatening, compelling, terrifying. And readers should hate them f or what they did and for how they act.

Madara is not hated for that. Readers dont want Madara in the story because he is utterly boring one dimensional character who succeeds at everything due to ridiculous plot circumstances. At least with Aizen, readers KNEW he was not a final villain.

Come on man, listen to yourself. That's the *exact* reason why people hate Aizen. He's arrogant, everytime he gets in trouble he pulls a Frieza and transforms yet again.

The only way people knew he wasn't the final villain is because SS was fighting him while we knew it wasn't going to be the last arc. Ever since the SS-arc he was hinted to be the final villain. And I'm sure you'll go "SPIRIT KING I KNEW IT ALL ALONG", but sir, you did not. Because you can't, because he hasn't been shown yet. Nobody knows if he's evil or not.

If you want a real villain, stop being scared to break your "Bleach is awesome" illusion and restart One Piece with an open mind.

Dec 6, 2010 5:53 AM

#89

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Jul 2008

1863

Jesuvius said:
Come on man, listen to yourself. That's the *exact* reason why people hate Aizen. He's arrogant, everytime he gets in trouble he pulls a Frieza and transforms yet again.

The only way people knew he wasn't the final villain is because SS was fighting him while we knew it wasn't going to be the last arc. Ever since the SS-arc he was hinted to be the final villain. And I'm sure you'll go "SPIRIT KING I KNEW IT ALL ALONG", but sir, you did not. Because you can't, because he hasn't been shown yet. Nobody knows if he's evil or not.

If you want a real villain, stop being scared to break your "Bleach is awesome" illusion and restart One Piece with an open mind.

Very spooky, I had the same exact lines cut out to reply to earlier, I had a nice old mini paragraph all written out too, before I remembered it's pointless :p

inb4 "I knew all the clues that were most definitely there and not bs11!!1! kuribo samaaa~"

Personally I like the Madara background, he's actually been developed and has a backstory. We have to wait for the Aizen rescue arc to hear his :(

Dec 6, 2010 1:14 PM

#90

kch33

Offline

May 2010

1105

it was decent chapter :)

in this episode, you will die horribly... *laughs just as shion*

lightness vs. darkness

Nani mo kamo wo hoshigatteita Mayoeru mono no chikai
Mada miru sekai o tsukuridasu koto Kuchi hateteiku

Dec 6, 2010 2:05 PM

#91

Offline

Mar 2010

651

BakaKawaii said:

Jesuvius said:
Come on man, listen to yourself. That's the *exact* reason why people hate Aizen. He's arrogant, everytime he gets in trouble he pulls a Frieza and transforms yet again.

The only way people knew he wasn't the final villain is because SS was fighting him while we knew it wasn't going to be the last arc. Ever since the SS-arc he was hinted to be the final villain. And I'm sure you'll go "SPIRIT KING I KNEW IT ALL ALONG", but sir, you did not. Because you can't, because he hasn't been shown yet. Nobody knows if he's evil or not.

If you want a real villain, stop being scared to break your "Bleach is awesome" illusion and restart One Piece with an open mind.

Very spooky, I had the same exact lines cut out to reply to earlier, I had a nice old mini paragraph all written out too, before I remembered it's pointless :p

inb4 "I knew all the clues that were most definitely there and not bs11!!1! kuribo samaaa~"

Personally I like the Madara background, he's actually been developed and has a backstory. We have to wait for the Aizen rescue arc to hear his :(

And when we do it turns out that he was a lonely kid similar to Starrk backstory and all he wanted was some friends.

Dec 6, 2010 3:11 PM

#92

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Jul 2007

23708

KantonKageX said:
random bleach hate spam

Hey at least Kubo does not copypaste same two backstories over every damn character in his manga.

Now I do wonder on which background Zetsu will have. Will it be "two brothers-sasuke-itachi" archetype that Madara, Sasuke, Sasori and half the world has or will it be "three man team and teacher - naruto sasuke sakura, kakashi" archetype that konan and pretty much every good guy character had~

Dec 6, 2010 3:12 PM

#93

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

KantonKageX said:
random bleach hate spam

Hey at least Kubo does not copypaste same two backstories over every damn character in his manga.

Now I do wonder on which background Zetsu will have. Will it be "two brothers-sasuke-itachi" archetype that Madara, Sasuke, Sasori and half the world has or will it be "three man team and teacher - naruto sasuke sakura, kakashi" archetype that konan and pretty much every good guy character had~

Dec 6, 2010 3:18 PM

#94

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

KantonKageX said:
random bleach hate spam

Hey at least Kubo does not copypaste same two backstories over every damn character in his manga.

Now I do wonder on which background Zetsu will have. Will it be "two brothers-sasuke-itachi" archetype that Madara, Sasuke, Sasori and half the world has or will it be "three man team and teacher - naruto sasuke sakura, kakashi" archetype that konan and pretty much every good guy character had~

Dec 6, 2010 4:23 PM

#95

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Mar 2010

651

Fai said:

Hey at least Kubo does not copypaste same two backstories over every damn character in his manga.

Now I do wonder on which background Zetsu will have. Will it be "two brothers-sasuke-itachi" archetype that Madara, Sasuke, Sasori and half the world has or will it be "three man team and teacher - naruto sasuke sakura, kakashi" archetype that konan and pretty much every good guy character had~

Kishi's setting maybe the same the 3 team/Brother scenario. Yes I unlike a certain someone will recognize the flaws.

Kubo may not recycle his backstories because forgets them and at times(Hallibel, Szayel, and Yammy) and fights too such as Byakuya/Kenpachi vs Yammy, What the hell ever happen to Kensei after he was knock unconscious by Wonderweiss, instead he throws the power level completely out the window Now with the defeat of Aizen equal next villian will be either a recycled Uber Xanathos Gambit, God-Mode Villian-Sue and one-shotting the entire Gotei 13 in one-shot and when it's all over. Soul Society and all their allies will emerged unscathed like nothing happened.

In Naruto it only happened once but that was explains via deus ex machina. Yes, AGAIN I will admit that was stupid. Compare to Bleach it's virtually the exact same thing almost except no one EVER DIES!!!!!!!

Another thing Sasori was an only child.

Dec 6, 2010 7:06 PM

#96

Quartz

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Feb 2009

352

Oh man a new version of resengan. This I'm looking forward to.

Dec 6, 2010 7:31 PM

#97

geemaa

(Gamer)

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Aug 2009

2792

Liking the new Rasengan.

Dec 6, 2010 8:26 PM

#98

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Jul 2008

1863

Fai said:
Hey at least Kubo does not copypaste same two backstories over every damn character in his manga.

Now I do wonder on which background Zetsu will have. Will it be "two brothers-sasuke-itachi" archetype that Madara, Sasuke, Sasori and half the world has or will it be "three man team and teacher - naruto sasuke sakura, kakashi" archetype that konan and pretty much every good guy character had~

Naw, he gives half a chapter for a backstory just before killing them off, which totally makes me care for them!1!!!!!111 /sarcasm.
The Uchiha have always been family orientated, before they were wiped out that is. Eww, emotions and family values.
Now you're really grasping for straws when you pick on the whole 4 man team thing, especially when that's the norm for ninja villages from what it looks like.
Minus Akatsuki which have 2 man teams. Oh dear, different :SSSS

Dec 7, 2010 1:39 AM

#99

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Jul 2007

23708

BakaKawaii said:

Naw, he gives half a chapter for a backstory just before killing them off, which totally makes me care for them!1!!!!!111 /sarcasm.
The Uchiha have always been family orientated, before they were wiped out that is. Eww, emotions and family values.
Now you're really grasping for straws when you pick on the whole 4 man team thing, especially when that's the norm for ninja villages from what it looks like.
Minus Akatsuki which have 2 man teams. Oh dear, different :SSSS

You sound like Kubo does not do that. Kishi is VERY at fault with this, except that Kubo's unimportant death flashbacks at least have some difference or meaning. For example, I loved every Espada flashback, because it gave them additional character (Barragan became my favorite espada after his flashback). Kishi on other hand, anvils the ideals of peace, friendship and family with every flashback.

One who had more unique flashback was Deidara. He, IMO, was one of the more interesting akatsuki. As for others...

We basically have stereotypes.

Naruto: Sasori, Killerbee, Gaara, Yahiko, That-kid-from-team-black, Minato(post-flashback)
Carefree childish idiots who are lonely and either turn into complete homicidal psychos or into even bigger idiots.

Orochimaru: Sasuke Sai, Madara, Pain, That-guy-from-cursed-island-who-was-friends-with-bee.
Uber serious lonely kids, possibly have a brother. Brood a lot, decide that the world is not worth it and go HAATRED or brood some more trying to understand on just how important friendship is.

Sarutobi: Jiraya, Kakashi, asuma, gai, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Will never win the fight, will guide Naruto's, feel bond with Sasuke's, get defeated by Sasuke's while protecting younglings. Usually have a team-gone-wrong

Sakura: Konan, Karin, Tsunade, Hinata, Shizune, Ino, Temari, every other female.
Useless females who can't do anything but heal. If they try to fight, they usually get defeated by a man and lectured. Sometimes off-paneled or forgotten is in love with Sasukes, but a bit attracted to Narutos too.

Itachi: Sai's brother, Madara's brother
Brooding brother who wants to protect his brother. Usually sacrifices himself, gets manipulated, sometimes gets portrayed as Mysterious Genius.

Zabuza: Kisame,
Silent killer who is secretly ronery :/

Unique: Deidara, Danzou,

MysteriousGenius: Minato(pre-flashback), Rikudou, First Hokage, Second Hokage, Hanzo
Those powerhourses, obviously shadowed, can do everything, solve everything, defeat anything and get massive hype. Once revealed devolve into either Naruto or Sasuke.

here, just described ever damn part II character and basic settings, Kishi repeats again, again, again and again till you get annoyed by every damn character introduced.

Then we have deaths. Good character gets a sad sad story of unfulfilled regret. Usually Sarutobi-type dies. But don't worry, he will be back one day either in the mind, flashback, clone, revival or mysterious reappearance..

Bad character usually gets a flashback on how lonely he was, how hurt and how gone-wrong he is. The flashback usually derails and destroys anything good that was in the character and makes you completely detest the sugar in it(Orochimaru, Pain, Itachi, Kisame, Konan, and I could go on)

Then you have storyline. The "storyline" is written in a way in which Kishi can reinforce his supposed ideals of peace, utopia, friendship and family.

Now while other manga manage to do it way better (brothers-enemies worked way better in 666Satan, friends-turned-enemies worked way better in x/1999, peace-is-great worked way better in Pluto, omg-huge-war-starts was done better in stuff like Utawarerumono or Vinland Saga, Mysterious-enemy-with-mystery worked way better in 20th Century Boys, kick-ass-hardworking-badass-main-character worked WAY BETTER in FMA.), kishi seems to struggle writing something. He usually abandons the believable and entertaining plot in order to reinforce his ideas and most of times it feels as if he is using a template where he replaces some stuff and then does a storyboard his assistants draw then.

Dec 7, 2010 2:51 AM

#100