Chrno Crusade Episode 24 Discussion

Quintessence said:
I should be in tears right now. I should be 10/10ing this series. Unfortunately the constant threat of sexual assault looming over Rosette after episode 6, the attempted rape of Satella in episode 16 and the implied rape of Rosette in episode 20 (she was raped, I mean, come on, she wasn't falling for his mind games yet the next scene she's his puppet?) caused me to spend this entire series with my anxiety through the roof and being unable to get attached to any of the characters. I should have dropped this after episode 6 and ran, but I'm an idiot. Unfortunately I can't give this any more than a 4/10. I really wanted to like this series, but they made it clear by episode 6 that I was probably going to be fighting anxiety attacks for the rest of the series. I'm really getting sick of series presenting strong female characters only to mind f*ck and molest/sexually assault them. I kind of shudder to think about just how far they would have pushed things had this come out in 2013 instead of 2003.

-Ryu said:
Rosette became Aion's puppet because of her weakened physical and mental state after the ritual and her own feeling of guilt over what happened to Chrono and Joshua, Aion just took advantage of her vulnerable state of mind and hammered those negative thoughts into her head until she gave up on fighting against them, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that he raped her and then she agreed to become his pupped afterwards. To be honest, I couldn't disagree more with the notion that Rosette or Satella were no longer strong female characters because of this, Satella was a victim of an attempted rape, she was traumatized by it and felt powerless, but over time she still found the strength to go on and keep fighting, same thing with Rosette, Aion turned her into a puppet for his plot, but she broke free from that and her ultimate decision to give Chrono her remaining lifespan was exactly what caused Aion's defeat. Having moments of vulnerability and a trauma looming over your thoughts, but overcoming them and doing what has to be done in the end is something only a strong and admirable person is able to achieve.

I don't think it was necessary to have rape or attempted rape in this series at all, anime and manga in general have a pretty awful track record when it comes to handling that topic, but I'd argue this is one of the least egregious uses of rape in this medium, even if I'm still not the biggest fan of it being there in the first place.

Quintessence said:
They alluded as early as episode 6 that Aion had some sort of manipulative power if not straight out mind control ability. Rosette seemed unable to fight it in episode 6, but gave some mild resistance in episode 20 even though she was in much worse shape. Then Aion starts kissing her stigmata and arm, then fade to black, then she's suddenly a mindless puppet. Yeah, I'm sure they discussed it over a cup of tea and she came around to it. TV animé weren't allowed to be as explicit then as they are today. I was actually shocked that they took episode 16 as far as they did. I'm assuming the only reason they got away with it is because the attempt failed. Had the attempt succeeded we would have had a fade to black like in episode 20. I find it hard to believe that he would attempt to moleste Rosette in broad daylight in episode 6, attempt to rape Satella in episode 16, yet when he has Rosette captured he wouldn't try anything. It's quite easy for someone with an active imagination to fill in the fade to black with visions of rape considering Aion's pattern of behaviour and that a fade to black was often used to imply sex or something that they didn't want to (or couldn't) show. She was still showing mental resistance, but couldn't muster any physical resistance. He totally did it.

Sexual assault is used often (mostly in hentai) to try and weaken a strong female character in order to make them more susceptible to manipulative/mind control powers (and more sexual assault). Break their will and take their mind. The CrossAnge animé (that I will NEVER watch) is a prime example of this. Embryo was likely modeled after Aion (and Caster in Fate/stay night), using words and sex to wear women down until they submit. I never said they stopped being strong women (though they temporarily did). I said that I'm sick of shounen titles presenting a strong female character and then proceeding to mind f*ck and sexually assault them as a way to try and break them (and often succeeding, even if only temporarily). Rosette aside, it's absolutely clear that's what Aion was attempting to do to Satella. What made it so hard to watch here is that we actually get to see the very real reactions of Satella trying to recover from the ordeal for almost 4 whole episodes. It's actually the most realistic portrayal of a sexual assault victim that I've seen in quite some time in animé. Usually writers are just too f'ing lazy to be bothered and the girl either bounces back immediately like nothing happened, or they're weakened by it and fall further and further under the control of the aggressor with each successive assault (often to bounce back like nothing happened later on). This trope has become somewhat of a plague since Japan eased their censorship laws in the 00s. Before that this type of thing was usually kept to OVAs and movies (often of the hentai variety). I believe this came out BEFORE Japan loosened their censorship laws. Had this come out AFTER then the scenes would have probably been much more egregious simply because it could.

-Ryu said:
Makes sense to assume that based on Aion's previous behavior, but I dunno, this series was never particularly shy with this kind of thing, they'd probably make it more apparent despite not showing the act itself, plus Rosette's stigmata or her blood in general seems to hurt demons as shown by Chrono trying to grab her wrist and his hand burning, as well as her using her own blood against him in a later scene, which is why Aion doesn't touch them directly, even this kiss was more precisely on the area surrounding the stigmata, it's possible that he didn't rape her because doing so would have hurt him in some way.

I don't like the trope much either, especially when it's handled in such a shitty way like they did in Cross Ange or even some stuff I enjoy, like that terrible rape scene from Berserk that was presented like fucking porn for some reason, with Caska even moaning as the camera focuses on her curves and Griffith rapes her. Chrono Crusade didn't make me as pissed off because at least it had a realistic portrayal, the attempted rape on Satella was presented as terrifying and its aftermath wasn't just brushed off like nothing happened, she was mentally scarred and took a long time to recover from that horrible experience, as painful as it is to watch something like that, I believe it's important to show it this way because rape/sexual assault really is one of the worst things that can happen to any person and a lot of weebs don't quite seem to understand that, considering how often you can find them defending the existence of rape scenes in anime and saying people who are uncomfortable with it are SJWs or whatever, as if it was just a fetish and not a real thing that happens to women everywhere. The reason why I don't think this should be present here is mostly because it doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the story, there wasn't much purpose aside from making Aion even more despicable than he already was from the beginning.

Quintessence said:
Censorship laws have to be taken into account. I'm pretty sure episode 16 was pushing the limit of what was acceptable at the time and that they only got away with it because the attempt failed. I don't think they would have been able to go that far for an actual rape scene on TV in 2003. Whether he kissed her stigmata directly is immaterial (especially when it's alluded to that he caused them with his kiss in episode 6, I get the feeling this might be animé only as it was rushed and not explained). What's important in the scene is that words didn't seem to be working, or at least not working as well or as fast as he'd like, so he then moved on to intimate physical contact which she didn't (or couldn't) refuse, then we get the fade to black, then Rosette is somehow under mind control. Usually in these scenes if sex isn't implied then either the aggressor pulls back willingly (they're toying with them) or the receiver forcefully refuses (not weak enough to be raped) before the fade to black occurs. Neither happened here. Also, if it was just simple mental manipulation or mind control then there is no real reason for a fade to black at all, they'd just show it or at least show it beginning before the fade to black. The scene gave me no reason whatsoever to think that she didn't get raped and every reason to assume that she probably did due to his personality, her being under his loving care for at least a few days and her being broken/controlled the next time we see her. A very similar thing happens in the Accel World novels where
That and the fact that
is why I dropped it and am not touching SAO with a 10-foot pole. Reki Kawahara can f right off.

Berserk is a series I have on my never watch/read list because I knew there was at least 1 scene like that. I was thankfully warned about it beforehand. I was also warned in advance about CrossAnge, Kanazuki no Miko and Mahou Shoujo ni Akogarete (that this is getting an animé yet Kimi to Tsuzuru Utakata isn't angers me to no end) and refuse to watch/read any of them. Chrno Crusade DID anger me because I went into this expecting a tearjerker and then they kept bringing up sexual assault which completely ruined any chance I had of crying in what should have been one of the saddest endings I ever saw (it was eden* They were only two, on the planet., which probably got the idea for its ending FROM the last episode of Chrno Crusade, in animé form, it should have been amazing). I think what angered me most was that the scenes in Chrno Crusade just weren't necessary (like most sexual assault scenes in animé/manga). Satella, in particular, angered me the most because I had already seen a character just like her deal with trauma for an extended period without rape being involved (Margery Daw from Shakugan no Shana III, Satella may have even been the inspiration for Margery, they're just so similar), so I knew exactly how unnecessary it was. I'm also a fan of Slayers where females are not immune from suffering and trauma AT ALL and they don't have to resort to rape to do it. In stories like this I very much see rape as a cop out for lack of writing talent. They can't think of a creative way to make a woman suffer, so just rape her to elicit cheap heat from the audience. The only good thing about any of this in Chrno Crusade is that they actually dealt with Satella seriously. It made it so much harder for me to watch and drove my anxiety through the roof to the point that I could no longer enjoy what I was watching, but this is how it should be handled. It reminded me of how it was handled in Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku only
It was gut wrenching but done right, just like the entire series. It's still the only isekai I've given a 10/10 and probably always will be.

Sylpheed said:
My friends didn't like the ending. I guess they don't like an ending where one of the main character dies.

Quintessence said:
I should be in tears right now. I should be 10/10ing this series. Unfortunately the constant threat of sexual assault looming over Rosette after episode 6, the attempted rape of Satella in episode 16 and the implied rape of Rosette in episode 20 (she was raped, I mean, come on, she wasn't falling for his mind games yet the next scene she's his puppet?) caused me to spend this entire series with my anxiety through the roof and being unable to get attached to any of the characters. I should have dropped this after episode 6 and ran, but I'm an idiot. Unfortunately I can't give this any more than a 4/10. I really wanted to like this series, but they made it clear by episode 6 that I was probably going to be fighting anxiety attacks for the rest of the series. I'm really getting sick of series presenting strong female characters only to mind f*ck and molest/sexually assault them. I kind of shudder to think about just how far they would have pushed things had this come out in 2013 instead of 2003.

Quintessence said:
Censorship laws have to be taken into account. I'm pretty sure episode 16 was pushing the limit of what was acceptable at the time and that they only got away with it because the attempt failed. I don't think they would have been able to go that far for an actual rape scene on TV in 2003. Whether he kissed her stigmata directly is immaterial (especially when it's alluded to that he caused them with his kiss in episode 6, I get the feeling this might be animé only as it was rushed and not explained). What's important in the scene is that words didn't seem to be working, or at least not working as well or as fast as he'd like, so he then moved on to intimate physical contact which she didn't (or couldn't) refuse, then we get the fade to black, then Rosette is somehow under mind control. Usually in these scenes if sex isn't implied then either the aggressor pulls back willingly (they're toying with them) or the receiver forcefully refuses (not weak enough to be raped) before the fade to black occurs. Neither happened here. Also, if it was just simple mental manipulation or mind control then there is no real reason for a fade to black at all, they'd just show it or at least show it beginning before the fade to black. The scene gave me no reason whatsoever to think that she didn't get raped and every reason to assume that she probably did due to his personality, her being under his loving care for at least a few days and her being broken/controlled the next time we see her. A very similar thing happens in the Accel World novels where
That and the fact that
is why I dropped it and am not touching SAO with a 10-foot pole. Reki Kawahara can f right off.

Berserk is a series I have on my never watch/read list because I knew there was at least 1 scene like that. I was thankfully warned about it beforehand. I was also warned in advance about CrossAnge, Kanazuki no Miko and Mahou Shoujo ni Akogarete (that this is getting an animé yet Kimi to Tsuzuru Utakata isn't angers me to no end) and refuse to watch/read any of them. Chrno Crusade DID anger me because I went into this expecting a tearjerker and then they kept bringing up sexual assault which completely ruined any chance I had of crying in what should have been one of the saddest endings I ever saw (it was eden* They were only two, on the planet., which probably got the idea for its ending FROM the last episode of Chrno Crusade, in animé form, it should have been amazing). I think what angered me most was that the scenes in Chrno Crusade just weren't necessary (like most sexual assault scenes in animé/manga). Satella, in particular, angered me the most because I had already seen a character just like her deal with trauma for an extended period without rape being involved (Margery Daw from Shakugan no Shana III, Satella may have even been the inspiration for Margery, they're just so similar), so I knew exactly how unnecessary it was. I'm also a fan of Slayers where females are not immune from suffering and trauma AT ALL and they don't have to resort to rape to do it. In stories like this I very much see rape as a cop out for lack of writing talent. They can't think of a creative way to make a woman suffer, so just rape her to elicit cheap heat from the audience. The only good thing about any of this in Chrno Crusade is that they actually dealt with Satella seriously. It made it so much harder for me to watch and drove my anxiety through the roof to the point that I could no longer enjoy what I was watching, but this is how it should be handled. It reminded me of how it was handled in Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku only
It was gut wrenching but done right, just like the entire series. It's still the only isekai I've given a 10/10 and probably always will be.