| I've heard a lot of mixed things about this. Pretty much most agree SSDs are the fastest aside from those really high speed HDDs but.. Which has a longer lifespan for regular use? Can you know a big failure may occur before it happen on a SSD like you can on an HDD? When data is erased from a SSD is it harder to recover data than from a HDD? Do SSHDs have any advantage over either from having both? |
| MLC based SSDs outlive HDDs by a century, TLC based SSDs by multiple decades. I forget what publication did it, but back in the Samsung 830/ 840 transition era, there was a huge torture test of popular SSDs and almost all of them lasted longer than 90 years worth of writes, converted to average use cases. SSDs have a controller dynamically retiring bad flash buckets and generally you will see the capacity shrink over time if it ever gets as far as use up the original overprovisioning to replace lost cells. (This is why overprovisioning exists, and why you should have it if the SSD software lets you have the option - most will just OP regardless) Erased data on an SSD is gone forever like with all flash based storage. SSHDs are just HDDs with a bigger cache (but the SSD portion is not as fast as traditional HDD cache) They basically store the most-often used files you have (system files) on their SSD portion to improve load/ boot times. SSHDs are not really worth it in anything but laptops that have only 1 storage bay. |
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Red_Tuesday said: MLC based SSDs outlive HDDs by a century, TLC based SSDs by multiple decades. I forget what publication did it, but back in the Samsung 830/ 840 transition era, there was a huge torture test of popular SSDs and almost all of them lasted longer than 90 years worth of writes, converted to average use cases. SSDs have a controller dynamically retiring bad flash buckets and generally you will see the capacity shrink over time if it ever gets as far as use up the original overprovisioning to replace lost cells. (This is why overprovisioning exists, and why you should have it if the SSD software lets you have the option - most will just OP regardless) Erased data on an SSD is gone forever like with all flash based storage. SSHDs are just HDDs with a bigger cache (but the SSD portion is not as fast as traditional HDD cache) They basically store the most-often used files you have (system files) on their SSD portion to improve load/ boot times. SSHDs are not really worth it in anything but laptops that have only 1 storage bay. Interesting. But could you explain what "MLC" and "TLC" means? |
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SLC = Single level cell MLC = Multi level cell (translation: two levels/ layers) TLC = Triple level cell VNAND (Samsung) and other proprietary flash = cuboid and above So basically, the cheaper flash has multiple levels of cells stacked on top of eachother to fit more data into a smaller amount of space, and to make SSDs with fewer flash dies. There are downsides to longevity and speed, though even TLC flash (at least the upper tier TLC based SSDs such as the ones from Samsung or Intel) can reach full saturation of the bandwith of a modern computer's SATA interface. There are faster interfaces, such as M.2 or other PCI express based interfaces, which is where you'd want MLC or even SLC flash if it's within your budget. However multiple levels don't always mean slower, like the Samsung 950 Pro which uses V-NAND, a flash technology with 48 levels. Since with SSDs, more NAND (flash chips) mean more speed, because a single file stored on 4 separate chips will be retrieved twice as fast as one spread across 2 chips. This is because the controller can read from multiple NAND at once. This is the reason SSDs with higher capacities tend to be faster, even within the same family of products. I believe Samsung's controller can even access multiple layers of cells on the *same* NAND at once, which is why it does so well in comparisons with competition. (this is not sponsored by Samsung lol) |
Red_TuesdayDec 22, 2016 11:52 AM
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Red_Tuesday said: SLC = Single level cell MLC = Multi level cell (translation: two levels/ layers) TLC = Triple level cell VNAND (Samsung) and other proprietary flash = cuboid and above So basically, the cheaper flash has multiple levels of cells stacked on top of eachother to fit more data into a smaller amount of space, and to make SSDs with fewer flash dies. There are downsides to longevity and speed, though even TLC flash (at least the upper tier TLC based SSDs such as the ones from Samsung or Intel) can reach full saturation of the bandwith of a modern computer's SATA interface. There are faster interfaces, such as M.2 or other PCI express based interfaces, which is where you'd want MLC or even SLC flash if it's within your budget. However multiple levels don't always mean slower, like the Samsung 950 Pro which uses V-NAND, a flash technology with 48 levels. Since with SSDs, more NAND (flash chips) mean more speed, because a single file stored on 4 separate chips will be retrieved twice as fast as one spread across 2 chips. This is because the controller can read from multiple NAND at once. This is the reason SSDs with higher capacities tend to be faster, even within the same family of products. I believe Samsung's controller can even access multiple layers of cells on the *same* NAND at once, which is why it does so well in comparisons with competition. (this is not sponsored by Samsung lol) Okay, thanks for letting me know. |
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Same principle as camera image sensors by the way, high megapixel ones will have "pixel buckets" stacked on top of eachother, which leads to noise in small sensors like on phones if they cram as many megapixels as they can to look big in marketing. |
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| SSD is superior than HDD as long as you buy the very expensive single cell SSD which is the most durable SSD out there yet but i recommend you wait for Intel Optane or 3D Xpoint SSD since they promise to be more durable and faster (1000x faster than SSD i heard) but ye they are more expensive |
| I can't see how an HDD would be more reliable than an SSD, since HDD have moving parts that can wear out. |
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Red_Tuesday said: Then what causes them to fail if they fail sooner? Only a defect or physical damage would do it? Do they withstand humidity and heat any better or worse than HDDs? I noticed humidity is worse than heat for HDDs both in personal experience and things ivee read from tests. MLC based SSDs outlive HDDs by a century, TLC based SSDs by multiple decades. I forget what publication did it, but back in the Samsung 830/ 840 transition era, there was a huge torture test of popular SSDs and almost all of them lasted longer than 90 years worth of writes, converted to average use cases. SSDs have a controller dynamically retiring bad flash buckets and generally you will see the capacity shrink over time if it ever gets as far as use up the original overprovisioning to replace lost cells. (This is why overprovisioning exists, and why you should have it if the SSD software lets you have the option - most will just OP regardless) What does overprovisioning do? Just move data from bad cells to better ones before they fully die or something? Erased data on an SSD is gone forever like with all flash based storage. Even if it's not overwritten? Because I though SSDs have information that gets flipped so some pieces of data remain ( i forgot the proper terminology for what im thinking of) |
SolidusSmoke said: There isn't much of a price difference between an HDD and SSHD. It makes sense to get the SSHD. =/ Like they said, that would be in the case of a laptop with only one place for a drive. On a desktop you can have a SSD and a HDD. |
| SSHD is a more of a balance between HDD and SSD though If you have the money then opt for a SSD for bset performance. traed said: SolidusSmoke said: There isn't much of a price difference between an HDD and SSHD. It makes sense to get the SSHD. =/ Like they said, that would be in the case of a laptop with only one place for a drive. On a desktop you can have a SSD and a HDD. Not the case as "performance/gaming" laptop you have 2 slots, for HDD/SSD. |
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traed said: Or you could get a large SSD. Actually, it's even better for Laptops, as the non-moving Parts will make it more resistible against Shocks when you let it fall or something.SolidusSmoke said: There isn't much of a price difference between an HDD and SSHD. It makes sense to get the SSHD. =/ Like they said, that would be in the case of a laptop with only one place for a drive. On a desktop you can have a SSD and a HDD. But then again, a HDD is better concerning Data-Protection in an extreme Case, because there is a Chance, that the Data could be read out in forensic Labors, however, that would cost you several Giants. A SSHD is only something Half and nothing Full. You're better off having a SSD/HDD Combo on your Desktop-PC or 1TB SSD (or lower) + external HDD(s). You can check Failures from the S.M.A.R.T.-Values: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T. |
NoboruDec 22, 2016 2:09 PM
SolidusSmoke said: Not for People who work and/or can otherwise save up Money. It's a good Investment, since you can use it theoretically for Decades without Issues. And every Second I don't have to wait when starting Windows or waking up from Hibernation, when opening a Program or when unpacking a rar or zip File, when installing or when loading a heavier Application, every Second like this is a precious Second that was worth my Money. A large capacity 2.5 inch SSD is very expensive. 300$ for just 1TB is too much. Don't only think in short Terms; think in longer Terms as well. 300$ over one Year is less than 1$ per Day. |
SolidusSmoke said: Noboru said: Not for People who work and/or can otherwise save up Money. It's a good Investment, since you can use it theoretically for Decades without Issues. And every Second I don't have to wait when starting Windows or waking up from Hibernation, when opening a Program or when unpacking a rar or zip File, when installing or when loading a heavier Application, every Second like this is a precious Second that was worth my Money. Don't only think in short Terms; think in longer Terms as well. 300$ over one Year is less than 1$ per Day. You're right by there's not a lot of people willing to invest that much in an SSD. An SSHD offers a happy medium for an affordable price. It's not a happy medium. It's still an HDD. |
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| The solution I usually suggest with laptops is getting an SSD and just using a USB 3.0 ext HDD if you really need a boatload of extra storage. I'm not a "I need every single Steam game I own installed!!" kind of guy, so I just keep a couple of games on and delete the ones I'm not playing at the moment. I use a big ext HDD array or NAS for file storage. |
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| SSDs have a lot more endurance than most people give them credit for. Some have a lifetime of up to 2 petabytes, for example. Also anyone who is using SSDs for storage rather than performance is someone with too much money anyway. You'll have a hard time finding ways to meaningfully use 200GB on them. For storage you're going to want to use HDDs anyway since they're cheaper and more reliable. If you can only have one I'd go for SSD tbh. Like others said, external hard drives are pretty good storage units, so there's really no reason not to if you have some money to burn. |
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| Samsung SSD's ftw :) |
"A half moon, it has a dark half and a bright half, just like me…", Yuno Gasai |
traed said: Then what causes them to fail if they fail sooner? Only a defect or physical damage would do it? Do they withstand humidity and heat any better or worse than HDDs? I noticed humidity is worse than heat for HDDs both in personal experience and things ivee read from tests. What does overprovisioning do? Just move data from bad cells to better ones before they fully die or something? Erased data on an SSD is gone forever like with all flash based storage. Even if it's not overwritten? Because I though SSDs have information that gets flipped so some pieces of data remain ( i forgot the proper terminology for what im thinking of) 1) Things that cause SSDs to fail are: unoptimized logic in the controller failing to cope with long life times (uncommon) or the flash simply wears out (which it will eventually) 2) Overprovisioning keeps writes away from 10% or so of your original capacity until something somewhere else is dying. Then files are dynamically moved to the previously unused sectors and the overprovisioning shrinks. Until eventually, there isn't any OP left, in which case the actual capacity you can see available starts shrinking (this will almost never happen unless you are a power user and live to the age of 80+) 3) There is a function called TRIM on most SSD controllers that aggressively deletes empty cells to make future writing faster. Thing is, most files on an SSD will be all over the place between different flash and levels of flash. They store data differently than HDDs, because: HDD = everything stored as sequentially as possible = faster SSD = everything stored as randomly as possible = faster 4) Think of the SSD controller as 512 read heads in an HDD. It can access anywhere on the SSD all the time almost all at the same time, unlike an HDD read head, of which there is only 1-3 and can only access the physical location they currently reside. |
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Noboru said: Or you could get a large SSD. Actually, it's even better for Laptops, as the non-moving Parts will make it more resistible against Shocks when you let it fall or something. Yeah I had thought of that too. Still a question of operational running temperatures is something i haven found out. Noboru said: But then again, a HDD is better concerning Data-Protection in an extreme Case, because there is a Chance, that the Data could be read out in forensic Labors, however, that would cost you several Giants. Giants? What? worldeditor11 said: Can't say for sure as I never encounter such event. SSDs are pretty damn reliable. hm that's good worldeditor11 said: No? As far as I know, both follows the same procedure of erasing data from storage which is just removing any references to the location where the data being stored in the drive. The data itself still exists, just scattered all over the drive with no signboards to tell you, yes this data is your porn video downloaded from pornhub. That's why full data recovery is possible as long as it can find back where is the data being held. Hm so it just sits there till it is overwritten with other data ? Which I assume takes only once unlike an HDD which takes multiple goes, though i could be wrong. Syrup- said: SSDs have a lot more endurance than most people give them credit for. Some have a lifetime of up to 2 petabytes, for example. Also anyone who is using SSDs for storage rather than performance is someone with too much money anyway. You'll have a hard time finding ways to meaningfully use 200GB on them. For storage you're going to want to use HDDs anyway since they're cheaper and more reliable. If you can only have one I'd go for SSD tbh. Like others said, external hard drives are pretty good storage units, so there's really no reason not to if you have some money to burn. Well that is the tricky part figuring out what a good amount of storage for an SDD is with additional use of an external HDD if not just simply using an internal HDD instead of an SSD . Many laptops these days seem to use SSDs so I was trying to figuree if i should write it off or just deal wit the less space. My only concern is killing the external HDD or having to upload to it too frequently that it becomes a hastle for a somewhat forgetful person. Though that differs by individual preference for attaching an external ever so often. LordPlucky said: The solution I usually suggest with laptops is getting an SSD and just using a USB 3.0 ext HDD if you really need a boatload of extra storage. I'm not a "I need every single Steam game I own installed!!" kind of guy, so I just keep a couple of games on and delete the ones I'm not playing at the moment. I use a big ext HDD array or NAS for file storage. Yeah NAS's are nice but more than I'd need probably. I managed to do okay with 500GB for a few years before it got filled up. Red_Tuesday said: 1) Things that cause SSDs to fail are: unoptimized logic in the controller failing to cope with long life times (uncommon) or the flash simply wears out (which it will eventually) 2) Overprovisioning keeps writes away from 10% or so of your original capacity until something somewhere else is dying. Then files are dynamically moved to the previously unused sectors and the overprovisioning shrinks. Until eventually, there isn't any OP left, in which case the actual capacity you can see available starts shrinking (this will almost never happen unless you are a power user and live to the age of 80+) 3) There is a function called TRIM on most SSD controllers that aggressively deletes empty cells to make future writing faster. Thing is, most files on an SSD will be all over the place between different flash and levels of flash. They store data differently than HDDs, because: HDD = everything stored as sequentially as possible = faster SSD = everything stored as randomly as possible = faster 4) Think of the SSD controller as 512 read heads in an HDD. It can access anywhere on the SSD all the time almost all at the same time, unlike an HDD read head, of which there is only 1-3 and can only access the physical location they currently reside. 1. I heard they are fairly heat sensitive but im ot sure if it's more sensitive than an HDD because I cant find info on it for some reason when i search. 3. So it automatically removes data associated with a file once it's deleted on the system instead of leaving it there till it gets overwritten to make it write faster rather than what worldditor11 said where it just removes it from the index? Am I understanding that right? So that would mean SSDs are more secure but also would need more frequent data backup on externals to make suree nothing is lost if something goes wrong I guess. |
traedDec 23, 2016 8:21 AM
traed said: LordPlucky said: The solution I usually suggest with laptops is getting an SSD and just using a USB 3.0 ext HDD if you really need a boatload of extra storage. I'm not a "I need every single Steam game I own installed!!" kind of guy, so I just keep a couple of games on and delete the ones I'm not playing at the moment. I use a big ext HDD array or NAS for file storage. Yeah NAS's are nice but more than I'd need probably. I managed to do okay with 500GB for a few years before it got filled up. Yeah same here, I don't feel too crammed using a 256GB SSD, but the prices for good SSDs are soooo cheap now!! Samsung 850 Pro is arguably one of the fastest of the SATA SSDs and here you can get one for under $250! Can't wait for these to become the norm in consumer PCs. https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-850-PRO-2-5-Inch-MZ-7KE512BW/dp/B00LF10KTO/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1482510322&sr=1-2&keywords=Samsung+850+Pro |
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| hdd for ur cost efiecien sdd no moving part + higher amount rewrites before fail so in theory shold have longer duraton lifespan. also faster dunno wat sshd is |
traed said: Operational Temps have never been a Problem for me with HDDs. As long as you don't overdo with 50-60+°C for a longer Period, you should be fine. Look at the Specifications. The 850 Evo that I'm having can withstand up to 70°C when operating according to the Datasheet.Noboru said: Or you could get a large SSD. Actually, it's even better for Laptops, as the non-moving Parts will make it more resistible against Shocks when you let it fall or something. Yeah I had thought of that too. Still a question of operational running temperatures is something i haven found out. traed said: Several Grand. My Bad.Noboru said: But then again, a HDD is better concerning Data-Protection in an extreme Case, because there is a Chance, that the Data could be read out in forensic Labors, however, that would cost you several Giants. Giants? What? |
| SSDs don't have any moving parts so they should out live HDDs |
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Noboru said: traed said: Operational Temps have never been a Problem for me with HDDs. As long as you don't overdo with 50-60+°C for a longer Period, you should be fine. Look at the Specifications. The 850 Evo that I'm having can withstand up to 70°C when operating according to the Datasheet.Yeah I had thought of that too. Still a question of operational running temperatures is something i haven found out. Several Grand. My Bad. I mean for SSDs. Ive had my laptop crash after exposure to hot and humid environment in my house. I also know some laptops that have SSDs usually lightweight models dont have cooling fans. So that is why im concerned about humidity and heat. Does it say optimal temperature to run in? hm so you're saying data recovery on an SDD is more difficult and costly than an HDD? |
| @traed: My bad. I've meant Disk Device in General (both HDD and SSD). Also hat my older Laptop crash due to heat, yet it still works. You might need to re-apply heating Paste or at least blow out the Dust. However, it's a general Problem with Laptops, so make sure you're not on 24/7 and also use Sleep-Mode if you're away for a longer Period of Time. I don't know about any optimal Temperature but Google had some Study or something about HDD-Failures. I think the optimal Temp was around 40-45°C for Summer. No, I'm saying that Data Recovery is rather possible in Worst-Case-Scenarios with HDDs than with SSDs, however, those extreme Cases are quite costly. |
| @traed: Sleep is just saving the current State onto your HDD or SSD, so that it can be boot up fast. Stand-bye would be saving it in the RAM. The latter works faster, but if you don't have any Power running, the saved State isn't there anymore. Of course it will be as cool as powered off, since there's nothing going on that is generating Heat. Just let them run and don't worry. You might have Luck if you could recover from the reserved Backup-Blocks. But the best Measure is having multiple Backup Drives and printing the most important Data. |
| @Noboru Huh I had thought sleep was what goes to the ram and that only hybrid sleep saves to the drive. I was just clarifying what I meant since what you said did not really contradict what I said about HDDs being easier and SSDs bing harder to recover. That question had a dual purpose of security vs recoverability. |
| @traed: I'm not too familiar with the English Terms. I only know that Standby = Standby and Ruhezustand = Hibernation. Hybrid = Hybrid. I'd say that SSDs are more robust in daily Usage, but as for Recoverability, I would put more Trust in HDDs. As for Security in Terms of a Device Encryption, HDDs are better, because they apparently can't encrypt Flash Drives fully. Though considering that you could just implement a Rootkit in the Firmware of a HDD, it ultimately doesn't matter, anyway. |
| A question I forgot to ask in the OP. Is PCIe flash storage same as a PCIe SSD? Noboru said: @traed: I'm not too familiar with the English Terms. I only know that Standby = Standby and Ruhezustand = Hibernation. Hybrid = Hybrid. I'd say that SSDs are more robust in daily Usage, but as for Recoverability, I would put more Trust in HDDs. As for Security in Terms of a Device Encryption, HDDs are better, because they apparently can't encrypt Flash Drives fully. Though considering that you could just implement a Rootkit in the Firmware of a HDD, it ultimately doesn't matter, anyway. I checked again and it's labeled hibernate actually. Not sure where i heard the term hybrid sleep. With encryptio im afraid id lose data if there is a glitch in the encryption at any point so i still avoid it for now till i feel safe about it. |
traed said: I'm taking it that it's the same. Haven't heard of any other Flash Storage that you could put inside your Computer other than a SSD.A question I forgot to ask in the OP. Is PCIe flash storage same as a PCIe SSD? I checked again and it's labeled hibernate actually. Not sure where i heard the term hybrid sleep. With encryptio im afraid id lose data if there is a glitch in the encryption at any point so i still avoid it for now till i feel safe about it. We might have talked about it. Hybrid is when it's saved in both the RAM and the Drive (HDD/SSD/SSHD).That's also what I'm fearing + I go for Convenience over Paranoia. |
traed said: A PCIe SSD has to have a different Interface than a typical S-ATA SSD, so maybe that's why it looks different to you.From what ive seen it looks different from a SSD like differet shape But the drive you were lookinng at that you linked to said it has hardware encryption. Is that more reliable than software encryption or something? I'm not into Encryption, so I can't say. The only very good Thing I've read about was Truecrypt and that's a Software Encryption. |
| I bought a 120GB SSD to replace my laptops HDD since my HDD was failing have had it for a month now and it's still 100% life and working perfectly lol. Only thing is I have read confusing reports about my SSD's Nand type I have read articles saying it's TLC, MLC, and the store I bought it from says it's SLC. So no idea what type it is lol but know it was made in 2016 so fairly new and figure it's using the latest SSD technology at least lol. Anyway but on a general scale SLC is basically the best, MLC is basically in between it's good yet not all that great, TLC is the worst (well technically the worst out of them all is EMMC flash) As everyone is saying a SSD has limited number of writes to it. How a SSD writes data is basically a cycle/cirlce. When one sector is written to it then moves on to the next empty sector. Once all the sectors have been written to it will go back around and write to the previous sectors again and it will keep completing and doing that cycle until every sector can no longer be written to. So Data is basically stored/written all over the place on a SSD. So basically if you download something/write to the SSD you basically have to leave it, So the SSD doesn't wear out every sector. So you really can't uninstall/reinstall a whole lot but most SSD'S these days have a whole bunch of writes to them it's pretty much fine lol. Unless you have a TLC SSD or EMMC flash but even then they can probably last a few years. So despite the writing limits it will take along time for a sector to die/go out especially if you are not downloading or installing programs left and right. Recently talked to someone who was still using a old SSD from 2009 and was still working. So they can last a long time if you take care of them. Found a good article talking about pcie SDD's http://www.howtogeek.com/238253/what-is-a-pcie-ssd-and-do-you-need-one/ |
animecourtney999Dec 25, 2016 9:04 AM
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