Onyxthegreat said: There is a way to build in a simple function to check if a manga or anime series has actually finished, before enabling the review option. I just don't understand why you wouldn't. Related question: Is there a way to add a series to the database and disallow scoring it or setting you status to anything besides "Plan to Watch" when a show hasn't even come out yet. |
nx6 said: Six people even added it to their 'Dropped' list already. How can you be that much of a hater?Onyxthegreat said: There is a way to build in a simple function to check if a manga or anime series has actually finished, before enabling the review option. I just don't understand why you wouldn't. Related question: Is there a way to add a series to the database and disallow scoring it or setting you status to anything besides "Plan to Watch" when a show hasn't even come out yet. And yeah I agree with your point. |
 |
| Please make some kind of a vote page for reviews and recommendations. Then the better ones will get into peoples latest review/recommendation on ''My Panel'' page. With current system, some random person can make an account and post spoilers in caps. |
| After reading the near entirety of this subject, why not propose a preview section to the site for people who would like to post first impressions (ie. 1-2 episode reviews) to allow people to offer insight towards a possible new anime to watch. I don't find your recommendation section all that appealing generally due to the fact that most people don't no how to due a serious side by side comparison of two different but similar anime. As a member of this site, I feel that restricting the people that you are intending to inform or gain is ultimately a bad move. As site administrators, the policy you have set forth does nothing to help the situation. It has only created a new problem for the moderators to deal with. By satisfying the few, you loose the masses. The best solution is to create a new avenue for your site members to post their impressions or opinions rather than having to search through the 100's to 1000's of forum posts for good anime to watch. So, I ask, Please consider this option for a future implementation that could solve the dispute that has arisen over the matter. Also, you need to change this line in your policy to reflect a broader audience-- Rather, the review should provide the reader with the tools to decide these things for himself. It should say "readers" and "themselves". After all, women read and watch anime too. |
DemonwyndMay 24, 2013 7:10 PM
| I apologise for not posting in this thread in a long time. While I don't have the time to address every single post (though I have read all of them as they have been posted), I think that the post I'm about to discuss will answer a majority of the questions users have asked. While working through the avalanche of reports you have all been sending my way, I came to a few conclusions: 1. Many of the users with reported reviews are unsure of how to review anime. I spent a lot of time trying to provide users with individualised questions they could use to help expand their reviews and I believe it will be more useful to have this centralised in the review guidelines thread. Thus, the guidelines have been updated to include a "Tips for New Writers" post. 2. Some users were also concerned about the "fairly and objectively" statement, so I have revised the paragraph on "What is a Review?". 3. The guidelines on previews were too ambiguous for many users and they wanted a distinct line for when they could start writing reviews for currently airing series. To address this concern, I have posted a new thread in the Suggestions board: "Review Guidelines: Currently Airing Series". For the next 5 weeks, we will be looking for feedback from the community on this proposed solution. 4. We have implemented a new Review/Recommendation Moderator position and will be adding some new members to the staff team soon. Other comments: |
KinetaMay 27, 2013 11:13 AM
| Thanks for the feedback Kineta. Also, there are two other threads that are very useful imo for anyone who wants to review a series (whether it's an anime or manga): http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=60782 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=62529 |
Stark700May 27, 2013 11:28 AM
 |
Demonwynd said: After reading the near entirety of this subject, why not propose a preview section to the site for people who would like to post first impressions (ie. 1-2 episode reviews) to allow people to offer insight towards a possible new anime to watch. I don't find your recommendation section all that appealing generally due to the fact that most people don't no how to due a serious side by side comparison of two different but similar anime. As a member of this site, I feel that restricting the people that you are intending to inform or gain is ultimately a bad move. As site administrators, the policy you have set forth does nothing to help the situation. It has only created a new problem for the moderators to deal with. By satisfying the few, you loose the masses. The best solution is to create a new avenue for your site members to post their impressions or opinions rather than having to search through the 100's to 1000's of forum posts for good anime to watch. So, I ask, Please consider this option for a future implementation that could solve the dispute that has arisen over the matter. Also, you need to change this line in your policy to reflect a broader audience-- Rather, the review should provide the reader with the tools to decide these things for himself. It should say "readers" and "themselves". After all, women read and watch anime too. That can just be done with the episode discussion section in the specific anime's forum. People just refuse to use it for some reason. I think this has been gone over many times when the new review system was being implemented. Those specific forums were MADE for these episodic impressions. You can always title the thread "First impressions." |
ZephysMay 28, 2013 6:33 PM
Kineta said: Truthfully, I stopped stalking your thread a while ago due to time constraints. Seems there was a bit of a misinterpretation somewhere though... we haven't been working on a new review system (coding-wise) but we were focusing on writing guidelines and are now implementing the Review Moderator position. I figured it would be something like that a few months ago. With only one coder and no one else to work on it we'll never get anywhere it seems. It will be possible to give applications for the moderator/recommendation post? I'd like to apply one day. |
 |
ZiharkXVI said: I would just caution whomever moderates reviews that spoilers sometimes go part and parcel with any critique of any medium. The purpose of a review is not necessarily to provide a reader the tools so he or she can come to their own opinion. That is what a preview or recommendation is for. The purpose of a review is to analyze what you have seen. I don't think you can do that without being specific. The vague reviews are those that can be misconstrued and entirely uninformative. Think back to your college literature class. If you reviewed something and did so without explaining exactly how you came to that opinion, right down to citing page and verse, you would find a request for more specifics. In a lot of ways, reviews are meant to be read after you have experienced a work of literature or movie. The caution should be to the reader that reviews may contain spoilers. And while reviews may keep out enough spoilers to avoid becoming a full commentary, if the specifics of certain plots are the cause of a poor review, or positive one, it should be encouraged. I definitely agree with this. I think the new rules take an overly narrow view of what a review is - I honestly don't know where this idea of people ONLY reading reviews for the sake of deciding what to watch come from, and certainly virtually everyone I know who read reviews would often read them as opinion/analysis pieces AFTER they've watched the anime. In fact, I would argue that those type of reviews are often the more interesting ones to read. The restrictions for spoilers policy is also the harshest I've come across: not only does the rules not allow spoilers at all, they also consider ANY plot specifics - not just major plot points/twists - as spoilers, which doesn't really conform to the most common use of the word as far as I understand it. Just look at the other sites that the MAL review guidelines are based on: imdb bans UNANNOUNCED spoilers (which seems sensible to me), while anidb discourages spoilers but doesn't ban it outright. The only other site that hard bans spoilers is ANN (and even there, it doesn't specify spoilers as being any more than the usual meaning), and considering it's a commercial site with reviews on DVDs and stuff, their reviews have a lot in common with product reviews on say, Amazon, so the "no spoilers" rule makes more sense there. As a user-contribution review site, MAL should be embracing its strength in providing reviews not only containing a variety of opinions, but also written with a variety of style and purpose, and the new rules seem to be trying too hard to stifle that variety. |
| Take off every SIG!! |
| There are far more people who hate getting spoilers in a review AND a lot of users do use the reviews to see if the anime is worth picking up - I certainly do. Believe it or not the level of irritation some users have at being spoiled is enough for them to write in caps lock. It might be a good thing for your review but please refrain from taking away the enjoyment for the other users. I have to say that I find it hard to believe that one cannot make a decent review without using spoilers. The good reviewers here on MAL have done so without spoiling it for others. You could try to do the same. ...this is the official TR opinion on the matter. It might not jibe with others. |
| You seem to be attacking a point I did not make. I do not deny that a lot of people use reviews to see if an anime is worth picking up, I'm simply saying that it's far from the ONLY purpose reviews serve. And I completely agree that it's bad getting spoiled when reading a review ... which is why I favour imdb's approach of banning unannounced spoilers. I don't see how their rule would do a worse job at solving the problem than the zero tolerance rules that MAL is using. While it's certainly possible to write decent reviews without using spoilers, not being able to use spoilers can limit the scope of a review: there are times when a reviewer might want to focus on an interesting point which requires a spoiler to explain, or use specific details to backup their opinion, details that are insignificant enough that they wouldn't even be considered a spoiler on any of the other sites. |
kekekeKajMay 29, 2013 7:55 AM
| Take off every SIG!! |
| Ahh...I was talking about spoilers in a review. Was I too far off in my post? In any case, I still hold the same opinion. |
| Finally, thank you. Now these fools can stop with their early "reviews" just so they can have the top one. |
TsukikageRan said: Ahh...I was talking about spoilers in a review. Was I too far off in my post? In any case, I still hold the same opinion. I'm curious to know why you think we need to take such extremes measure in order to get the job done. Why wouldn't a rule only banning unannounced spoilers work just as well? @ZiharkXVI: I think there are generally two different types of reviews: the analytical kind that you talk about, and the ones you often find on popular entertainment that you come across in newspapers/magazines etc. I wouldn't say the former is the ONLY true review, otherwise you're essentially claiming that all those professional reviewers who do the latter for a living are doing it wrong. I'm in favour of a compromise that would allow both type of reviews to exist on MAL. |
| Take off every SIG!! |
| i have a feeling people mix up reviews and recommendations and spoilers is not the biggest problem in a review but i got to agree they should try to avoid spoiling which is sometime pretty hard. in my eyes the biggest problem is people who are only talking trash about a anime/manga while they did not even finish it or for a worse case scenario not even start it. but oh well for me nothing will change i don't write reviews only to my friends i sometimes sent one and it is spoiler free but some shows are hard to review with out spoiling as the longest one took me 3 hours to write and think how not to spoil it and still let it make sense and i don't listen to much to what others say about a show and just check it out and decide for my self if they where right or not. |
| "When a flat-chested loli hugs you, she holds you closer to her heart" "--I am a single bullet. It has no heart. Therefore, it does not think. It just flies straight towards its target."  |
| i appreciate all the thought that is being given to the subject by the administration of this site. i think there are a lot of good ideas in the guidelines, even for seasoned reviewers. a small point regarding "grammatical correctness" -- if one can avoid making people feel left out for something as profound as their gender, IMO one should. if one doesn't want to use pronouns in ways differing from what's been indoctrinated by one's teachers, one can rewrite the sentence. it's not an easy task to develop solid guidelines, and one of the reasons is clear right here: people use the review system for different, equally legitimate purposes. personal datapoint: BEFORE watching a new show i shun reviews, primarily because i prefer to encounter a show without any bias from anyone else, but also because no site has ever managed to protect me from things i consider spoilers (i don't think it's possible). i am with those who use reviews AFTER i have seen a show, to check what people might have noticed that i've missed, or where their viewpoints differ from my own, and to read their critique and analysis, because that is what interests me. spoilers are not as easy to keep out as some might expect, because different things spoil different people. heck, sometimes the synopsis manages to spoil a show, or the displayed art does. there are often spoilers on people's profiles. i'm in general a "journey is more important than the destination" person and i am fairly unconcerned with plot spoilers (unless it's a mystery), but i get teed off about character spoilers, which for many people don't seem to register as spoilers at all. if you seriously want to remove all spoilers here, you'll be left with a lot of vague fluff, and many of the most interesting reviews will hit the bitbucket. sure, reviews can be carefully crafted without spoilers, and in many cases it won't matter. but in some it will, and were one to write about what most matters in those cases, one would need to mention important plot or character elements. for example, if the ending pretty much negated the message of the show, that's an important thing to talk about, but it becomes wishy-washy vagueness without specifics. if somebody wants to take issue with a character's development, it becomes useless without references. what i call "product reviews" such as what ANN provides, are fairly useless to me past the first one, and i don't care to read more of them either there or here, before or after watching a show. they're a dime a dozen, and i think this policy will promote more of that type of review. i'd want this site to set itself apart from commercial sites by offering more substantive reviews. which means reviews that offer analysis -- we have the community and the brain power to do that here, without commercial interests pushing their own agenda. it could be incredibly worthwhile. as for putting analytical reviews into forums -- the forums seem to be very episode-centric, while analysis might not be. there is also a lot of squeeing (and hating) in the forums, and posts are not anywhere as thought-out as reviews are. which is fine; there should definitely be a place like that. but it's why i don't go to the forums to look for such articles. to me reviews are the natural place for in-depth analysis of an entire show. i acknowledge that many people hate plot spoilers, and i think it's important to respect that. but isn't the spoiler code good enough for those? if i start the details of a review with "there will be MASSIVE SPOILERS here", considering that the reviews are not even fully displayed at first, isn't any reader warned sufficiently? |
| This is a big site with a large number of users. The MAL review guidelines aim for what kajia correctly refers to as popular entertainment reviews - the kind that doesn't or at least try not to spoil the show. These reviewers essentially write for readers who have not yet seen the movie/series. It is meant to entice or caution the reader as to the level of entertainment the reader can get out of the show. That is the reason why they carefully avoid any spoilers that may ruin a potential viewer's enjoyment. The kind of reviews that you, pleochroic and ZiharkXVI are referring to have a different audience/reader in mind. These reviewers are writing for people who have seen the show and want to share their opinions and expound on points as to why they come upon that conclusion. That is the reason why a carefully crafted review of this kind would have spoilers in them. In truth though, if the reader has seen the subject, the term 'spoilers' is superfluous. This is my personal opinion on the kind of review pleochroic and ZiharkXVI have in mind. Because I have theoretically seen the subject in question, I do not want anything under spoiler tags. As someone who has seen the show, doing tags is unnecessary. It is just that we also have a responsibility to the other users who have not seen the show. |
| I'm not sure why you would think people who have seen the subject "do not want anything under spoiler tags" - they don't bother me, nor do they bother anyone else that I know of who read those reviews. I've never heard of anyone claim "man I wish they'd get rid of those superfluous spoiler tags in reviews!" We simply don't care whether they're there or not, but we recognise the need for some for the two types of reviews to co-exist. And I'm sure those who read both types of reviews appreciate them because it allows them to distinguish which is which. Why you would want to limit the reviews on this kind of site to those "product reviews" when the user-contribution review system is perhaps uniquely placed to do so much more? With such a large pool of reviews on so many shows, only having "product reviews" is detrimental to the diversity of opinions you can get - even the same opinions can be expressed in so many different ways if you allow people to dig into the details. |
| Take off every SIG!! |
I thought the Episode Discussion board was created solely for that purpose. If they were, then they're not really fit for purpose. They might give in depth discussions of episodes (though in truth, from what I've seen of them, most of them barely scratch past the surface), but they don't give an overall impression of the series. And since they're forums threads, people don't approach them with the same mindset - someone who wants to write a review is likely to put more thought into their writing than someone who's just casually posting in the forums. The majority of what you find in the episodic discussion is little more than variations of "I really liked this episode". You wouldn't be able to get away with that if you're writing a review. |
| Take off every SIG!! |
| kajia, my dear, which part of 'my personal opinion' did you not understand? I'm referring to your first sentence at post #104. Looking at my previous post (#103) I can not see what can justify that sentence of yours. I know there are 2 types of reviews (#103). I acknowledge that. The question is how to make the two coexist with the current guidelines in place. Obviously the type of review you are arguing for will be not be allowed. I do not have a definite answer for this. As DarkMorpher has said Episode Discussion is one avenue but it is not an adequate one for an actual review. The other one that I know of and has been used by a lot of reviewers here is the personal blog. Of course, 'foot traffic' in blogs is not as considerable as in the actual anime page. A thread in the anime page marked 'In-Depth Reviews' could be another solution - I do not know if this will be allowed. It seems to be the most feasible. This thread is for the users to get to know the current guidelines although the discussion has shown that some users who have seen the anime also wish for more thorough reviews. |
TsukikageRan said: kajia, my dear, which part of 'my personal opinion' did you not understand? I'm referring to your first sentence at post #104. Looking at my previous post (#103) I can not see what can justify that sentence of yours. Your opinion just struck me as a little odd, as I've never heard other people raising this issue. I apologise if my response seemed excessive. TsukikageRan said: The question is how to make the two coexist with the current guidelines in place. Obviously the type of review you are arguing for will be not be allowed. I was under the impression that one of the purposes of this thread is to get feedback on the modified guidelines. Some of us are obviously not happy about certain changes, and are making our opinions known in the hope that the admins will reconsider them. Perhaps I've missed something, but I haven't come come across anything that suggested that the community was consulted over the updates to the guidelines. Certainly the first I've heard about it was from this thread, so I would be disappointed if these changes were already set in stone without giving us a chance to respond to them. |
| Take off every SIG!! |
| Ahh...no problem then. I hope we can get to some compromise as you have mentioned earlier in this thread. |
| thank you, good job :) |
 [/url] |
Kineta said: Just a bump for anyone that may be watching this thread for this point. It's been four of the five weeks, and this thread has only received two responses.3. The guidelines on previews were too ambiguous for many users and they wanted a distinct line for when they could start writing reviews for currently airing series. To address this concern, I have posted a new thread in the Suggestions board: "Review Guidelines: Currently Airing Series". For the next 5 weeks, we will be looking for feedback from the community on this proposed solution. Is this all the community has to say on this issue? |
| Imo, the reviews that should be removed immediately would be reviews that aren't actual reviews at all such as one-two episodes reviews, poems, one-liners, or a review that has nothing to do with the anime/manga. Reviews with a large amount of spoilers should also be deleted or at least notified for a change. I don't really have much to add to this other than the fact that reviews these days are all viewed differently from a perspective various from person to person. Regarding ongoing series, from my viewpoint, they should be removed unless a user has dropped the series half way, an ongoing series that has no definite finishing air date set, and if there isn't enough reviews there (or potential future reviews written by other authors). |
Stark700Jun 26, 2013 11:54 AM
|
| I was wondering if a new rule can be added to the reccomendation guideline, like preventing users from recommending prequels/sequels? I mean if users really like a certain series then wouldn't they just check out the prequels/sequels if they want more of the series? Edit: By prequels I mean the those that are published/aired after the original like for example: Star Wars episode 1-3, Ga-Rei:Zero Stark700 said: I agree completely with this.Imo, the reviews that should be removed immediately would be reviews that aren't actual reviews at all such as one-two episodes reviews, poems, one-liners, or a review that has nothing to do with the anime/manga. Reviews with a large amount of spoilers should also be deleted or at least notified for a change. I don't really have much to add to this other than the fact that reviews these days are all viewed differently from a perspective various from person to person. Regarding ongoing series, from my viewpoint, they should be removed unless a user has dropped the series half way, an ongoing series that has no definite finishing air date set, and if there isn't enough reviews there (or potential future reviews written by other authors). |
RX-782Jun 30, 2013 12:07 AM
 |
| I fully agree with the ZiharkXVI and kajia on the fact that a review is indeed something that should provide specifics as it is pointless to review a piece of fiction without it. Given the fact that a lot of the likes/dislikes a review gathers stem from the overall score it is imho safe to assume that reviews on MAL are seen as reassurance as well: People want to get confirmation that "their" piece of fiction had merit in different aspects, which leads me to believe that a lot of people who look at reviews here are finished with reading/watching a specific series. Forcing down vague reviews to everyone on this site seems like the wrong approach then, as uninformed users can get a big part of the information they receive from synopsis, recommendations (which are usually in terrible shape because imho a lot of users are not able to actually use this site's features to their full extent) and previews. This is a site about personal ratings, comparing ratings, etc. Advertisements are not inclined to help me better my score or discover flaws/other aspects I might have overlooked. Yet, it is possible to describe flaws and problems in later parts of an anime/manga without spoiling too much: The key point here is abstraction. If we look at the review of Harukana Machi-E our club has written, it is obvious that lines like Although expected and understandable, the rather abrupt ending and resolution may feel anticlimactic and will probably leave some readers with a slight feeling of dissatisfaction. will not spoil too much for new readers while being specific enough for informed readers to get the criticism. However, this takes a certain amount of skill. The ideal solution would be some kind of message that allows us to discern between the two kinds of reviews, like a prominent [CONTAINS SPOILERS] displayed somewhere in the header of the review. Reviewers could toggle this in the editor and some kind of button would displayed afterwards. I still doubt that this will help a lot though, because most reviewers who are responsible for the bad one-episode reviews imho lack the intelligence to use these features appropriately enough (the misuse of the rec subforums and recs in general is a good example). |
NidhoeggrJul 1, 2013 4:47 AM
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Nae_Gevurah said: 2) Reading many reviews on MAL, I get the sense of an undercurrent of elitism. If MAL is about an open community of reasonable people sharing their love and thoughts of Japanese still and motion artwork, why must one be squashed into a professional-reviewer-looking box? Doesn't it tend to exclude people, rather than bring them together? Isn't the "Did you find this review useful?" tool designed for such a purpose, to present feedback as to how other members feel, rather than a bureaucratic notion of an ultimately correct way to review things, in spite of members' own votes of opinion on reviews? The rating and displaying system of reviews is totally corrupt on MAL, that's been known for a long time now. I, alongside with many other, have begged and requested many changes. In the end, none took action, since I guess they wouldn't bring any profit and it would just be extra drag for them to in-put. |
| No issues, I like the problem being pointed out. Here are only a few threads out of many that are requesting changes: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=674999 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=668107 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=670621 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=667781 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=637329 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=521089 - This one only wanted some simple things to be added, not the system changed, hence why these few ideas were included. |
SubbedOct 22, 2013 8:29 AM
DarkMorpher said: I'm not sure of these "other sites", but considering the state of our review system, I highly doubt that. Please don't speculate without any concrete proof or you'll confuse other users.Crave is planning on monetizing on user written reviews like other sites. Nae_Gevurah said: If you click on "Overall Rating" on reviews, you can see those category ratings. It just isn't visible by default:Also, has anyone else noticed how, oddly, the review interface has the MAL user select numerical scores for different categories, but never actually displays those numbers anywhere, except the Overall score? Who exactly are those scores for? http://puu.sh/5hZyg.png http://puu.sh/5hZzg.png |
DarkMorpher said: Crave is planning on monetizing on user written reviews like other sites. They aren't planning on doing anything, especially anything review-focused. |
DarkMorpher said: What's the policy on duo-posting a review in English and another language? Like in here by Alpharon As long as the full source of the review is written in English, it should be fine, even if the exact same meaning is written in another language next to it as well. Anyway, these are more Rules than Guidelines on how to write reviews. I'm planning on writing some guidelines myself, will see how much users will grab for them. |
| Where are the new review/rec mods? This is getting pathetic, you know... |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Nidhoeggr said: Where are the new review/rec mods? This greatly interest me as well. Also, is it just me or are no reviews that get reported being taken down anymore? I've noticed this to be going on for a month and a half now. And it's especially problematic with users who write dozens of spam/troll reviews. |
 |
| I don't think I've ever seen a review actually get taken down... including the ones ranting about the lack of review mods. Seriously? :/ |
 |
| Question; When clicking "Add to favorites" on a review; where do I find these 'favorites'? Been looking for a while. |
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