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| *sigh* even with Gil's help, Kirei is still a boring character.. This episode was quite good though. |
My DeviantArt and Pixiv and still waiting patiently for a 3rd season of Spice & Wolf :'| |
| Great ep |
| Damn, the Tohsaka's are out |
| 1. So that's what the seals are for… to force heroes to commit suicide at the end for the grail. No happy ending at all 2. There is no chivalry between kiritsugu & kirei. Can't believe kirei killed his own teacher 8/10 |
| 俺の命を百合に。 Currently translating Sono Hanabira ni Kuchizuke o - Atelier no Koibito-tachi -- when bored. Above visual novel is 22.22% translated with progress uploaded to youtube; if you're into yuri VNs, check out my channel.  |
| Yamaha V-Max. One of the greatest motorcycles to come out of Japan. And they made it sound like a Harley. :( |
souledge94 said: wow gil sure does love teleporting.That must be a weird moment "yes we won after these tough battles master now we can get our wish" "yeaaaa about that imma need you to kill yourself" " "wait what?" YES!!!!! tokiomi is dead thank god.Trying to have a family moment when your such a crappy father.I feel no sympathy for this character at all. Well... Urobuchi (and actually Takeuchi too) mentioned he had difficulties portraying Tokiomi, since Rin's kindness stems from him, so he tried to make him as villainous as possible. I'd say he fulfills his role as an anti-villain well. As mentioned before, he sucks as a father, but personally, I do feel some sympathy as he is obviously "just" heavily misguided (and he thankfully died or else Rin would have tried to become a perfect magus, too). Regretfully, the only (true) explanation of his actions is only mentioned in one single POV, when he visits Rin for the last time, and the reader is left with an insufficient explanation, that neither makes him truly unsympathetic nor sympathetic (and his explanation is full of logic holes that could have been filled with more POVs). It's even worse for the anime viewer. :-/ |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: wow gil sure does love teleporting.That must be a weird moment "yes we won after these tough battles master now we can get our wish" "yeaaaa about that imma need you to kill yourself" " "wait what?" YES!!!!! tokiomi is dead thank god.Trying to have a family moment when your such a crappy father.I feel no sympathy for this character at all. Well... Urobuchi (and actually Takeuchi too) mentioned he had difficulties portraying Tokiomi, since Rin's kindness stems from him, so he tried to make him as villainous as possible. I'd say he fulfills his role as an anti-villain well. As mentioned before, he sucks as a father, but personally, I do feel some sympathy as he is obviously "just" heavily misguided (and he thankfully died or else Rin would have tried to become a perfect magus, too). Regretfully, the only (true) explanation of his actions is only mentioned in one single POV, when he visits Rin for the last time, and the reader is left with an insufficient explanation, that neither makes him truly unsympathetic nor sympathetic (and his explanation is full of logic holes that could have been filled with more POVs). It's even worse for the anime viewer. :-/ Rin did try to become a perfect magus. She did pretty much become a mini-tokiomi. If he was alive, simply whatever the outcome(either she rejects his path or follows it), it would mean her illusion of her father gets shattered which Nasu believes to be bad(will have to wait for Rin post-fifth-war visual novel/light novel that Type Moon have planned already to know for sure). Tokiomi is pretty much Rin taken to an extreme Going by the FSN prologue with what Rin remembers from her father and what is in Fate/Zero I do believe Tokiomi had the best of intentions and tried to assure both sisters survive even if he did not. The same idiotic naivety that let him trust Zouken in the end was his downfall with Kirei. I personally do not believe people stay the same forever and I do believe that if he did not meet his tragic end, even if Rin's illusion of perfect father is shattered forever, they both would still have chance to become better people(Waver did after all), even if Nasu believes that RIn would never be ale to be happy knowing what kind of person her Father was. . |
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| Do you have any actual info for the "planned" future release of that VN/LN or do you just post it for the sake of it? Rin never knew all about her father, only the Tokiomi that cared for Rin the successor (which isnt the same Tokiomi that showed zero concern about Sakura after she was taken), Nasu clearly says that. You cant say what he was actually like based on half assed memories of a back then 7 year old. Waver had a certain experience that lead him to that change. Tokiomi at his age has already learned what he wanted and should have learned(as a traditional magus). Waver was also a very different type of magus.He wasnt from a traditional family and he actually strived to prove that lineage and other shit magi base their value on arent absolute. |
| No, Rin doesn't truly try to be the perfect magus. She also has a different image of her father, which is basically what ssjokg said. She does resemble her father in some parts, but while she does hold up to the responsibilities and traditions as family head and supervisor of Fuyuki to a certain degree, she never embraces the values, ethics and views of a magus and that is a clear difference between her and her father. |
CapsuleCoreMay 25, 2014 11:39 AM
C-Core said: No, Rin doesn't truly try to be the perfect magus. She also has a different image of her father, which is basically what ssjokg said. She does resemble her father in some parts, but while she does hold up to the responsibilities and traditions as family head and supervisor of Fuyuki to a certain degree, she never embraces the values, ethics and views of a magus and that is a clear difference between her and her father. The correct assumption would be that Fifth War events made her fail in that quest. We do not know how she would turn out if Fifth war never happened. ITs quite clear that meeting Shirou had an immense effect on her as a person in all three routes. ssjokg said: Do you have any actual info for the "planned" future release of that VN/LN or do you just post it for the sake of it? Interview with kinoko nasu. When asked about how Rin feels post 5th war and questions about ubw and hf ends and what she ends up doing, Nasu asked to post-pone it till type moon announces the rin project. We do not know what it is though. It can be LN or it can be VN in style of Mahoyo, no one knows. Speculation is that it somehow has to do with the mystery cruise mentioned in HA(since Kagetsu Tohya had foreshadowing and hints for the possible path Tsukihime 2 would take) and that it will be something they will work on after Tsukihime remake is released. |
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| Look at Kaleid. Shirou has nothing to do with a hero of justice and Rin is fine.So it is clear that she wouldnt become like Tokiomi. So it is just a "we may do it, we may not" scenario.There are still 2 Mahoyo VNs, Apocrypha and the fucking Tsukihime remake. If it ever gets made, it will take too long and Rin will most likely be the same with no big changes like all the other characters in parallel works(Ilya,Caren,Luvia,even Rin)) |
ssjokgMay 25, 2014 12:46 PM
Fai said: C-Core said: No, Rin doesn't truly try to be the perfect magus. She also has a different image of her father, which is basically what ssjokg said. She does resemble her father in some parts, but while she does hold up to the responsibilities and traditions as family head and supervisor of Fuyuki to a certain degree, she never embraces the values, ethics and views of a magus and that is a clear difference between her and her father. The correct assumption would be that Fifth War events made her fail in that quest. We do not know how she would turn out if Fifth war never happened. ITs quite clear that meeting Shirou had an immense effect on her as a person in all three routes. Um, that is your assumption. You are basically claiming without meeting Shirou and the 5th War, Rin would have turned out differently, yet you say it yourself that we have no idea what Rin would have become without the 5th War. |
| Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. |
CapsuleCoreMay 25, 2014 9:12 PM
souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. |
CapsuleCoreMay 25, 2014 10:01 PM
| You know, Tokiomi doesnt seem to be worried for the citizens of Fuyuki as much a she is worried about his position as the supervisor. His reaction in two words is "Oh dear"... As for the sealing designations I already posted my thoughts on this. Why would Kariya not know about SD and AM?HE is a magus, he just left home without training. Compared to what he says to Kariya in the river battle, his "thoughts" later on seem like him trying hard to justify himself. |
souledge94 said: There is nothing anti villian like about Tokiomi.Theres nothing I can sympathise with.Hes a terrible father and never is shown to have regrets about what hes done.Nothing good or sorta good is shown through him. He's a terrible father, yes, but in his own mind, he means well and thinks he's doing the right thing and giving his daughters the best possible future. He has good intentions, but by our standards, he's kind of a monster. Note that I have no comment as to whether or not he's an anti-villain, though I would argue that he isn't even really even a villain. Antagonist maybe, but not villain. C-Core said: Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. Worth noting that they are bothered for very different reasons, and Tokiomi is bothered more by Caster's unrestrained, rampant use of magic than by his involvement of "innocents"; the novel quite plainly says mages don't care about the slaighter of a few random people for even remotely justifiable reasons. Also worth noting that Kirei has no capacity to care for anything, and Kariya is too close to death himself to care. Them aside, only Emiya and Ryuunosuke are shown to be indifferent; Kayneth is presumably bothered for the same reasons as Tokiomi, but he isn't really shown to care. souledge94 said: He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition. By the time that whole thing comes to light, he would have been too busy preparing to check. Though, for what it's worth, he probably wouldn't have bothered anyways. I think he views his daughters as heirs more than humans, though he seems to think of himself in the same way. This is why Gil thinks he's really boring. Second sentance is of course completely true. souledge94 said: .In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals. Well, not only for that reason. We cannot say how important the other factors were, but I think it's safe to say that his concern for maintaining order on his lands and such were not insignificant motivators. souledge94 said: Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. Me either, though for me it was because he totally had it coming. More noticeable in the novels, but the guy is an idiot. C-Core said: Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. I don't think we can say whether or not he has knowledge of those things. Either way is plausible, but I would imagine with the amount of time he spent in a magical household, "sealing designation" would not be an entirely unfamiliar term. ssjokg said: You know, Tokiomi doesnt seem to be worried for the citizens of Fuyuki as much a she is worried about his position as the supervisor. His reaction in two words is "Oh dear"... True, but I think his understated response is a combination of typical japanese culture and a desire to maintain a cultivated, unflappable, "in-control" image of himself. |
souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. No im not biased.Its just I go by whats shown to me.Though I will give you he wanted caster also dead cause this stuff is all suppose to be secert and not shown to the public though again I sense no anti hero here at all.Just a prick and a bad and thankfully dead father.You wanna protect the character go right ahead but as said I judge them as I see em. Never said anti-hero. Kiritsugu is Fate/Zero's anti-hero. I said Tokiomi is an anti-villain. ssjokg said: You know, Tokiomi doesnt seem to be worried for the citizens of Fuyuki as much a she is worried about his position as the supervisor. His reaction in two words is "Oh dear"... As for the sealing designations I already posted my thoughts on this. Why would Kariya not know about SD and AM? He is a magus, he just left home without training. Well, there's that that his obvious anger is further explained because the exposure of magic. So admittedly, this more likely fits Rin's creed to not involve innocents, so yes, Tokiomi accepts smaller sacrifices in Fuyuki. I'll take that back. Still fits the anti-villain, though. About sealing designations... I know your opinion on this. As I've said, Tokiomi's logic has holes. Well, there is neither an indication that Kariya does know, nor that he does not. There isn't that much info about his knowledge, besides the worms. Then let us say he does know about all of this, he still didn't see what Tokiomi saw. Compared to what he says to Kariya in the river battle, his "thoughts" later on seem like him trying hard to justify himself. I disagree. It is for the reader to decide whether what Tokiomi thought is genuine or just a desperate attempt to convince himself that what he did was right, so again - text interpretation. In my opinion, that one POV rather gives more detail behind the meaning of his words to Kariya, when he says things like his wish to give Sakura a good future, it being a burden that Aoi gave birth to two daughters with such rare talents and the "godsend" when Zouken offered to adopt Sakura. |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. Well to be honest. WE KNOW how outright dangerous Sakura's potential is. We have SEEN what exceeds the worst fears of Tokiomi. souledge is not VN reader. He has no idea. At the same time he has no idea how the magus world works. Being powerful AND unique is the worst thing that can happen to a person in nasuverse. C-Core said: Um, that is your assumption. You are basically claiming without meeting Shirou and the 5th War, Rin would have turned out differently, yet you say it yourself that we have no idea what Rin would have become without the 5th War. Not assumption. Thats the point of Rin's character development in UBW route anyway. The situation that Fate/Zero sets off forces Rin on the path of having to chose greater gain over personal needs or emotional empathy. Look at her interactions with her schoolmates in the prologue for example. Look at her utterly lonely life. She is living as a heir, she is placing that and the greater needs of being a heir above her emotions. In 10 years she had to live life alone, she did not have time to grieve, she did not have capabilities not time to think about her sister that much - she was forced to discard all of that for the sake of being what she believes is worthy of Tohsaka name. At the start of VN she is completely conflicted about saving Shirou - an act that does not bring any clear gain to her. Even before it happens we see her be thoroughly unnerved by Shirou's completely selfless nature. Her choice to save him sets her onto the path of re-embracing the empathic-part of her nature. Fate Route forces her to make selfless decisions again and again, accepting that part of herself. UBW route outright clashes her blind pragmatism with Shirou's blind idealism, letting them to reach an equilibrium of sorts both HF lets her work out her issues, yet again leading to similar end. Hilariously, in all three routes Rin turns out relatively similarly, except for being better off in UBW end, since its the end that allows her to achieve true balance. ssjokg said: Look at Kaleid. Shirou has nothing to do with a hero of justice and Rin is fine.So it is clear that she wouldnt become like Tokiomi. Wrong. Shirou still has his ideal. He is just NOT as broken as in FSN. And Rin is head over heels over him. So it is just a "we may do it, we may not" scenario.There are still 2 Mahoyo VNs, Apocrypha and the fucking Tsukihime remake. If it ever gets made, it will take too long and Rin will most likely be the same with no big changes like all the other characters in parallel works(Ilya,Caren,Luvia,even Rin)) Nope. Its "we will do it". And its not parallel worlds Rin versions. Its FSN-Rin, we just don't know of which route. |
AhenshihaelMay 26, 2014 6:07 AM
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Fai said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. souledge is not VN reader. He has no idea. At the same time he has no idea how the magus world works. Being powerful AND unique is the worst thing that can happen to a person in nasuverse. First of all, spoiler tag everything that is about FSN, please. ssjokg said: Look at Kaleid. Shirou has nothing to do with a hero of justice and Rin is fine.So it is clear that she wouldnt become like Tokiomi. Wrong. Shirou still has his ideal. He is just NOT as broken as in FSN. And Rin is head over heels over him. |
CapsuleCoreMay 26, 2014 7:27 AM
C-Core said: |
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| Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) |
Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) That wasn't directed at you, but souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not, and that was why he disagreed with me. |
CapsuleCoreMay 26, 2014 1:05 PM
C-Core said: Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) Not you, souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not and that was why he disagreed with me. |
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Fai said: C-Core said: Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) Not you, souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not and that was why he disagreed with me. |
ssjokg said: Fai said: C-Core said: Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) Not you, souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not and that was why he disagreed with me. narrative-interpretation =/= speculation. If every single little bit was spelled out instead of being implied, fiction would be no different from kitsch. The good part about nasuverse and especially FSN for me is that people are not spoonfed, characters have actual depth you have to UNDERSTAND(big part of why quite a few people misinterpret Shirou) |
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| Eh no.When this "interpretation" is based on Shirou affecting Rin, it is 100% speculation. |
| Those walls of text though... |
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ponygon123 said: Ah I liked Tohsaka alot and now his murderer is the guardian of his daughter. This is a really good show, shame I didn't watch it when it was airing. I wonder if I should watch Fate/Stay night or wait for the new adaption that is coming out. Wait for the upcoming one. Also, mind elaborating on what you liked about him? I'm a bit curious o.o |
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Botato said: ponygon123 said: Ah I liked Tohsaka alot and now his murderer is the guardian of his daughter. This is a really good show, shame I didn't watch it when it was airing. I wonder if I should watch Fate/Stay night or wait for the new adaption that is coming out. Wait for the upcoming one. Also, mind elaborating on what you liked about him? I'm a bit curious o.o I dunno what the OP liked about him in particular, but Tohsaka seemed like perhaps the only one in the Grail War with relatively pure motives. He respected the Mages Association, and with it magecraft, above all else. Granted, the things that respect lead him to do were rather despicable, but I think he remains one of the relatively likable characters in the series. |
freeflowmeJun 5, 2014 3:13 PM
| You know, if we twist common sense that much, Ryunosuke and Caster where really pure as well. |
ssjokg said: You know, if we twist common sense that much, Ryunosuke and Caster where really pure as well. Well, I did say "relatively" :p I guess he's not that great, even relatively, though... On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is totally abhorrent and 7 is completely pure, I'd probably go: 1. Serial killer > 2. Kirei (joy in others' suffering) > > 3. Tohsaka (gives Sakura up to crest worms) > > > > 4. Archibald > 5. Kiritsugu (greater good ethic doesn't hold water) > > 6. Waver (just wanted to prove he's capable) > 7. Kairya (selflessly stepped in for Sakura) |
freeflowmeJun 5, 2014 5:51 PM
| Weeelll, Kariya is not purely selfless and Tokiomi had deeper motives besides the ones he told Kariya (and since you never played HF, it's harder to imagine why he wanted Sakura to learn magecraft). Both are supposed to be viewed in contrast with Tokiomi being portrayed in a slightly more positive way and Kariya in a more negative way in the second half. But that has been discussed numerous times already, so I'll back out. Btw, Kirei isn't such a bad guy actually. There's a reason why Shirou can actually like him. But that's HF material again, so... |
CapsuleCoreJun 5, 2014 7:12 PM
| Reminds of the time I tried to discuss this show with a friend and he complained that the show did not focus on the right characters. Tokiomi and Risei Kotomine... |
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ponygon123 said: Botato said: Wait for the upcoming one. Also, mind elaborating on what you liked about him? I'm a bit curious o.o I liked his family in general and I thought he was a decent guy with decent motives. It also helps that I found him to be one of the only bearable characters in the shows, I find so many of the characters annoying. I have never liked a show so much when I hate almost all of the characters. I disagree with what he did to Sakura but at the same time I understand it in away. And I like his relationship with his daughter Rin, it is very sweet and nice. You liked a family where the mother just bows her head to the father, no matter what crappy decisions he makes, because he is her "husband and head of the family", where both mother and father, regardless of motives, literally discarded their daughter and never asked about her again.Ok... What of all this is decent or bearable? Lets not forget that he is so full of himself and his plans are basically "hide and lets other do the job and cant even understand how to use(treat) his Servant. |
ssjokg said: You liked a family where the mother just bows her head to the father, no matter what crappy decisions he makes, because he is her "husband and head of the family", where both mother and father, regardless of motives, literally discarded their daughter and never asked about her again.Ok... What of all this is decent or bearable? Lets not forget that he is so full of himself and his plans are basically "hide and lets other do the job and cant even understand how to use(treat) his Servant. Granted, his actions concerning his daughter(s) are reprehensible and ultimately inexcusable. That said, I think a "hide and let's let 5 other Servants die so we just have to kill 1 with my OP Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. Why risk yours if you don't have to? Also, how else was he supposed to handle the most independent Servant of a notoriously independent class if not by at least pretend groveling before him the whole time? |
freeflowme said: ssjokg said: You liked a family where the mother just bows her head to the father, no matter what crappy decisions he makes, because he is her "husband and head of the family", where both mother and father, regardless of motives, literally discarded their daughter and never asked about her again.Ok... What of all this is decent or bearable? Lets not forget that he is so full of himself and his plans are basically "hide and lets other do the job and cant even understand how to use(treat) his Servant. Granted, his actions concerning his daughter(s) are reprehensible and ultimately inexcusable. That said, I think a "hide and let's let 5 other Servants die so we just have to kill 1 with my OP Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. Why risk yours if you don't have to? Also, how else was he supposed to handle the most independent Servant of a notoriously independent class if not by at least pretend groveling before him the whole time? Yet his plan failed from step 1. He was supposed to handle him with respect.Or at least try to entertain him a bit. If a little girl of a forsaken tribe could do that then it should be easy for an "educated" magi. |
| Personally, I find Tokiomi hilarious because he's just so incredibly stupid. The novel makes this crystal clear but you can see it in his eyes. Even when the knife is all the way in, he still has not realized that Kirei isn't on his side. In his dying moments, he's still trying desperately in his mind to figure out what is going on because he is so absolutely convinced that Kirei was on his side that the very idea that he would betray him doesn't even exist in his mind. And that, to me, is hilarious. |
| Damn... I'm not sure who to root for now. I like both Kiritsugu and Saber, but Kirei and Gilgamesh make an awesome pair. I had a feeling Gilgamesh was considering re-contracting with Kirei after all their conversations, and it was surprisingly...satisfying to see it happen. There's a mutual admiration going on there that's really fun to see. |
freeflowme said: ssjokg said: You know, if we twist common sense that much, Ryunosuke and Caster where really pure as well. Well, I did say "relatively" :p I guess he's not that great, even relatively, though... On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is totally abhorrent and 7 is completely pure, I'd probably go: 1. Serial killer > 2. Kirei (joy in others' suffering) > > 3. Tohsaka (gives Sakura up to crest worms) > > > > 4. Archibald > 5. Kiritsugu (greater good ethic doesn't hold water) > > 6. Waver (just wanted to prove he's capable) > 7. Kairya (selflessly stepped in for Sakura) Kariya was not selfless. |
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| I liked Tokiomi despite all his faults. He wasn't a bad guy; he made decisions he thought right based on the moral values of the magi society he and his family have grown up with. He is more decent than half of the other masters. So it sucked seeing him die like that, and anybody who thinks he was awful while praising Kirei seriously needs to take their fanboy glasses off Kirei's a good character because he makes me uncomfortable. He's competent, dangerous, inscrutable, and unpredictable - a lethal combination for a villain. Sometimes I love the villains, but there's also nothing about Kirei that charms me. He's not charming or entertaining or attractive; he's gloomy and scary. I would enjoy disliking him (since that's the goal for villains) but unfortunately I know how this all turns out, so I don't really enjoy watching him. :( |
yaddayadda said: I liked Tokiomi despite all his faults. He wasn't a bad guy; he made decisions he thought right based on the moral values of the magi society he and his family have grown up with.b] He is more decent than half of the other masters.[/b] So it sucked seeing him die like that, and anybody who thinks he was awful while praising Kirei seriously needs to take their fanboy glasses off Kirei's a good character because he makes me uncomfortable. He's competent, dangerous, inscrutable, and unpredictable - a lethal combination for a villain. Sometimes I love the villains, but there's also nothing about Kirei that charms me. He's not charming or entertaining or attractive; he's gloomy and scary. I would enjoy disliking him (since that's the goal for villains) but unfortunately I know how this all turns out, so I don't really enjoy watching him. :( Dont worry there are others with shitty opinions as well. |
| Rejoice, ssjokg! Your wish of having someone else to rage at for not treating Tokiomi as complete trash will finally be fulfilled! |
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yaddayadda said: Kirei's a good character because he makes me uncomfortable. He's competent, dangerous, inscrutable, and unpredictable - a lethal combination for a villain. Sometimes I love the villains, but there's also nothing about Kirei that charms me. He's not charming or entertaining or attractive; he's gloomy and scary. I would enjoy disliking him (since that's the goal for villains) but unfortunately I know how this all turns out, so I don't really enjoy watching him. :( FSN Kirei says hi. |
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Fai said: Rejoice, ssjokg! Your wish of having someone else to rage at for not treating Tokiomi as complete trash will finally be fulfilled! Was there someone before? Never mind, just remembered the previous discussion in this thread. |
BotatoJun 8, 2014 4:51 AM
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