Redefinition of the definition of anime.

Splitter said:


1. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

2. I would and do. It's far easier to find people online and offline to discuss western animation than people to discuss anime. Have you never heard of Toonzone?

3. I think anime is defined one of two ways and you're hardfast as defining it in the eastern sense, when most people here would define it in the western sense. Yes, we could consider "anime" as meaning animation... but we already have the word "animation" and if we did that, people would find another way to divide the two. Would you really like to go back to calling it Japanimation? I know I don't.

Atsilan said:


1. Alright could you refer me to the thread explaining why we deal with animation only from the geographic region of japan? I need alot of persuasion before I can agree with the dismissal of japanese style anime made outside japanese borders.

A edit of question no 2 to make it more clear: why would you not want to discuss japanese style animation made outside of the borders of Japan on MAL, highlighting the word MAL and japanese style. could you clarify your answer?

I don`t mean we need to add spongebob, but at least leave some leeway for some of the animations where the artwork is in/close to japanese style? Why would that be something bad?

And no I have not really heard of toonzone, I generally only watch japanese style animations, with some exeptions of course. Perhaps I should check it out.

On your answer to question no 3. I`m also not saying that we should call it Japanimation, but we should find a better term for Japanese style animation and animation that originates in Japan. I really dislike this western definition.

They can divide it into genres/styles, but the term needs to reflect style of animation, not geographical location. Anime should not be the word we use for animation from Japan. Nihonime, japanimation xD I don`t know what term we come up with next, but isn`t it good to discuss this? Make some waves? I don`t care what most people do, alot of the time people do things wrong and a little knowledge and logic wont be bad for anyone. Specifying a definition is good if the definition is lacking, no matter how many people use it in a certain way. Just like the word gay should not be used as a derogatory slur, screw how people use it, it means happy or more recently homosexual, neither of those should be used as derogatory slurs.

DrGeroCreation said:
MAL does seem biased when it comes to animation. If Korean cartoons can be added to the database then why can't cartoons that were partly animated in Japan such as Thundercats, Boondocks also be included? Korean cartoons are not anime.

IntroverTurtle said:
Because those are just outsourced. Then the Simpsons, Family Guy, and a lot of other American cartoons would be allowed in.

And my MAL's definition, they are.

DrGeroCreation said:
Still doesn't explain why Korean cartoons are in the database. Anime refers to JAPANESE cartoons.

IntroverTurtle said:
MAL's definition doesn't refer to only Japanese animation.

And MAL used to accept all different kinds of animation, but eventually had to cut a lot of stuff. They ended up keeping only Chinese, Korean, and Japanese animation. Don't remember exactly why, ask Kineta if you want to know.

DrGeroCreation said:
MAL's definition is very strange and kind of confusing then because it doesn't adhere to either the western or Japanese definition of anime.

RedRoseFring said:
Let's have a recap of previous posts:
1) OP complains that all animation to be included as anime.
2) Avatar will not be added to the database (that battle may never end).
3) A user proposes that Spongebob is kawaii and should be listed as anime as well.
4) But when will Breaking Bad be allowed too?
5) NO! Anime is only Japanese animation.
5) Aren't there Korean animated works on the site?
6) Well....we'll let all East Asians be included as Japanese.
7) This doesn't seem right.......I'm out.

RedRoseFring said:
Let's have a recap of previous posts:
1) OP complains that all animation to be included as anime.
2) Avatar will not be added to the database (that battle may never end).
3) A user proposes that Spongebob is kawaii and should be listed as anime as well.
4) But when will Breaking Bad be allowed too?
5) NO! Anime is only Japanese animation.
5) Aren't there Korean animated works on the site?
6) Well....we'll let all East Asians be included as Japanese.
7) This doesn't seem right.......I'm out.

anime db guidelines said:
Professionally produced, animated works created:

in Japan for the Japanese market;
in Korea/China for the Korean/Chinese market;
as a joint production between Japan/Korea/China and another country.
Note: This does not include productions where only the animation is outsourced.

DerpHole said:
You aren't going to get Avatar Air Bender to be listed on MAL.

Just stop.

Splitter said:


It's the forum's modus operandi. There is no one thread discussing why we deal with Japanese animation because that's the entire point of the website. If you want to discuss western animation here, there's a thread for that in the Music & Entertainment subforum.

I don't mind discussing animation outside Japan on this website, but it's not the primary reason I come to this website. I, like most everyone else on this website, primarily come here to discuss animation of Japanese origin. It's not a dismissal of animation of other countries, but again, I already have plenty of people in real life that I can discuss western animation with as well as online that a forum isn't particularly necessary to ask "hey, have you seen Adventure Time?"

I know that adding anime-influenced animation to the list is the primary reason you are bringing this up, but the others make a good point. If you allow shows like Avatar in, you are leaving the door wide open. You can argue all you want not to include Spongebob, but the flipside exists in that "but you allow something like Panty and Stocking". The door is open to animation of Japanese origin. That's the purpose of the site, not all animation. I redirect you to my first post. If you want a global animation database, create one yourself. Don't force others to change their site due to your personal belief on what the site should be.

More to the point, why the hell are you complaining about the lack of western animation when you don't even watch it yourself?! Yes, go check out Toonzone. It's the leading site for western animation discussion, that is assuming you actually care and this isn't all "waaah I want to add Avatar to my MAL"

Are you insinuating "anime" is a derogatory slur for Japanese animation? I don't even anymore.

MotRin said:
First a sub vs dub war, now an anime definition war?

dis gonna be gud.

AirStyles said:
So... You want the creator of the site to change his site to suit your interest...

Ahahahahaha!!!

... Wait, you're not joking?

KyuuAL said:


I've been waging war on this topic for a long time. Nice to no longer be alone. :3

I love it, when these threads start up - by which - I have absolutely no responsibility for it. Proof that the idea of "anime made outside Japan" is spreading.



If you stay behind the times, then you will be left behind. Once upon a time, when anime itself was new, there were haters of anime everywhere. But look at anime now.

Hopefully, someday, many Western anime fans actually move on to work in animation -- rather than tiddlying around cosplaying anime conventions, drawing fanart, and writing fanfics. As a consequence, they themselves may seek to produce anime on their own - at the professional level.

Sadly, there's a two pronged attack suppressing Western anime talent:

1. The anime fanbase itself, who is still adamantly resistant to Western-made anime, or even American-made anime.
2. Domestic animation, who still seek to continue to animation their own "old-fashioned" but dying way.

For now, it is taking a small studio like Roosterteeth to produce anything that can be categorized as American anime. If they do things right, this market may actually grow - and end run the stubborn weaboos.

Atsilan said:
Honestly I think the western definition of Anime is riduculous. It is so typical that we westerners/americans, take a word used in another culture and give it a completely different meaning.

Atsilan said:
Anime - an abbreviated pronunciation of the japanese word for animation. That word was borrowed from english, and essentially their word for animation, is the english word animation. They use it for all animation, then they shortened it down to anime and now we westerners reimported our own word animation abbreviated, because we couldn`t abbreviate the flipping word ourselves. Now we use this reimported, shortened word for all animation to describe ONLY animation made in japan? Now that is fucked up.

Atsilan said:
Perhaps we imported this japanese abbreviation for some other stupid reason, like we needed to separate japanese styled animation from our own animation style by using the same word that we use for our animation just with 4 letters cut off and an a replaced with an e at the end.

Atsilan said:
Oh but wait, it isn`t just japanese animation we call anime, plenty of anime from other asian/oriental countries are counted as anime. But for some reason only anime from the asian countries, because if lets say Sweden made an anime (now I`m using the redefined definition of anime, not the stupid western definition) animated in japanese style, it would not be an anime (in the stupid western definition). It would not be an anime because it was made and directed in Sweden, a measly change in geographical location. It would be a "swedish cartoon". That is stupid.

Atsilan said:
Anime is a word for all animation, or at the VERY least any animation in the japanese STYLE, not japanese/asian/oriental geographical location. Now you can debate style alot, as style varies so much from anime to anime. But anime is animation and it needs a broader definition that it has now, without this confinement by a crappy geographical condition.

Atsilan said:
If you are looking for a word to describe what the stupid western definition of anime does use nihon anime (which means japanese anime), oriental anime or something like that.

Atsilan said:
If the people agree to redefining the definition of anime, back to what it originally means in japanese, I hope that MAL can let Anime (the proper japanese definition of Anime again) that is made worldwide, be added onto the site. Perhaps if Anime is only redefined to the point of meaning animation made in japanese/oriental style, MAL will let any animation that is made in that style onto the site.

Atsilan said:
A few useful links:

Japanese words for animation:
http://rut.org/cgi-bin/j-e/FG=r/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=E&T=animation&WC=none&FG=r&BG=b&S=26

Western crappy definition of anime:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/anime?q=anime

Wikipedia page on Anime:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

Peace. It is important to draw wisdom from different places. If you take it from only one place it become rigid and stale.

KyuuAL said:


I've been waging war on this topic for a long time. Nice to no longer be alone. :3

I love it, when these threads start up - by which - I have absolutely no responsibility for it. Proof that the idea of "anime made outside Japan" is spreading.

AlpineSuperstar said:
You're so right. I think the same rules ought to apply to food. Why should silly Americans classify sushi as Japanese cuisine? It's still food and it can be enjoyed by all people, so why do we have to recognize its place of origin when it comes to classification and distinction between it and other foods?

Oh wait, maybe it's because there actually is a difference between it and other foods. The same way there is a difference between anime and other cartoons. The same way there is a difference between hip-hop and other music. The same way there is a difference between any sub-genre that arises because of differences in culture.

This process of distinction and classification can be explained by understanding differences in culture. It has nothing to do with an American tendency to reject culture. That's just silly.

Atsilan said:


So sushi made outside of Japan is not sushi?

romagia said:
you're really stupid and self-centered if you think it's a western/american thing; do you even know what katakana is? or creole languages? or what passes for a 'mansion' in japan? or an aunty/uncle in india?

You're so smart and not fucked up, because you use the word 'anime' just like the japanese do! Not like these filthy westerners with their silly western definitions! They can't even abbreviate words themselves!

Yes, and i don't see how you could find this stupid at all. Having a word for japanese animation seems to me to be pretty darn useful.
Also, the "same word that we use for our animation just with 4 letters cut off and an a replaced with an e at the end" just happens to be the japanese word for animation. Which can be conveniently used for animation coming from japan.

While MAL does approve korean and chinese animation, the database guidelines call them "Professionally produced, animated works". Because of database limitations, they are registered as 'anime', but it's not like anyone cares about them, unless it's for discussions like this.
The term/definition you are looking for is anime-influenced animation, and it's not stupid at all. Japanese animation is made for the japanese market, while swedish animation, even if it's anime-influenced, it's for the swedish market.


アニメ = all animation
animation in the japanese style = anime-influenced animation = animesque
The above definitions are objectively true.

The definition for the english word 'anime', however, is quite a subjective matter. You can choose whichever definition you want, but that does not make it the one true definition.

On a side-note, if asian/oriental animation becomes relevant in the future, that would be an interesting debate in semantics, but for now, it's irrelevant whether one considers them to be anime or not.

While technically better, nobody will use the extra two syllables for the same reason 'America' is synonymous with 'The United States of America'. The "stupid western definition" is the most used one for a reason.

You know full well that unless you make your own database, that just won't happen. The way MAL chooses what goes in the database and what doesn't tries to be as objective as possible, however, "animation made in japanese/oriental style" is pretty subjective. You can't provide a formal definition for that.


A few useful links:

MAL database guidelines:
http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=141101

Wikipedia page on Anime-influenced animation and manga-influenced comics (don't forget that MAL is a manga database too!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime-influenced_animation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Manga-influenced_comics

Tvtropes page on Animesque:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Animesque

Wiktionary page on Animesque:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/animesque

Wiktionary page on Anime, which uses every possible definition (please note how none of them mention chinese/korean/asian/oriental animation)
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anime#English


Conclusion:
a) anime already has multiple definitions
b) there is already a term for non-japanese anime
c) very few people care about korean and chinese animation, outside of those specific countries

Atsilan said:


Lets see, where do I begin. xD

Yes it does happen in other cultures as well, but ignorance is somehow almost exhalted some places in the U.S. (I`m saying this as an American citizen abroad.) The japanese have a long tradition of importing words from other languages like english and french.

This phenomenon does not only occur in the west, and I never said that. However it definitely is very typical for us westerners to do what I described.

Good job at discussing the arguments in a nice manner, and not going all out in a war against a forum user ;) It really made my day and gave me a good laugh xD Thanks, I can`t wait for Ckan to narrate this, yoroshiku onegaishimasu =D

I agree that a word for japanese animation is darn useful, but Anime should not be the word for it and there are so many reasons why. Though it does seem like I won`t be able to convince you no matter what I say, so I wont say much more =P

Animeshon is the japanese word for animation, anime is an abbreviation of that word. I think our opinions differ on "conveniently", I would use the term lazy or poor to describe the use of the word Anime for animation made within the geographic borders of Japan. So for example if it was italian animation, would we then use the italian word animazione (meaning animation) to describe animation made within the geographical borders of Italy? Sounds ridiculous.

If you make this about lazyness and ignorance that in a way illustrates my point of why we should change it. Why do you want to be lazy, naming something you love? And if we really are lazy and want to shave off a few syllables why not try Nihonime xD

And no just because it is made in Sweden does not mean it is meant for the swedish market, just like norwegian salmon is exported all over the world. Do you really think the 5 million norwegian citizens could ever eat all the salmon that was produced there? It is produced largely for export. Yes it is unlikely that an anime would be made in Sweden for lets say the japanese market, but if there was an Anime that was made in Sweden in the japanese style would it be allowed on MAL? Or perhaps only if it was made for the Japanese market it would be allowed on MAL?

What you are saying is that animation made in the japanese style is not anime? Is that not the same as saying sushi made outside of Japan is not sushi? I can agree that it is not sushi made in Japan, but it definitely is japanese cuisine and sushi. If it follows the recipe of an anime, it will be anime no matter where, geographically it is made.

B) there is already a term for non-japanese anime:
non japanese anime = animesque = anime-influenced animation? I mean there is even a contradiction in the the equation you have given xD non-japanese ANIME is ANIME xD you said it yourself?!?

Conclusion:

In the words of KingYoshi:
"If it looks like a duck, and acts like a duck, then it is a duck."

Peace.

AlpineSuperstar said:


Of course it is, silly!

Either way, it is regarded as Japanese cuisine. I guess that's why I understand the argument as to whether Avatar or The Boondocks are anime. But all cartoons? That's pushing it. It is certainly a term that has a somewhat flexible definition. I see where you're coming from. I just think that the way most people distinguish between anime and other animation is understandable. I find differences between most things in a similar fashion. There's definitely a grey area though.

romagia said:

if japanese ducks would be different enough from european ducks, then duck experts would call them ahiru

european duck raisers could paint their ducks to look like ahiru, even convince some people they are ahiru, but does that make them ahiru? i say not

Atsilan said:


European duck raisers could import ahiru from Japan, and breed them in Europe, they would still be called ahiru, not ahiru-influenced ducks.

romagia said:
while you can import ahiru, the cultural differences between ahiru raised in europe, and ahiru raised in japan are significant enough to call the european ones "ahiru-influenced ducks"

KingYoshi said:
I don't know Japanese, so I don't know what an ahiru is. If it is a japanese duck, then its a DUCK. No matter what kind or where it is. Still a duck.

Atsilan said:


So sushi made outside of Japan is not sushi?

KingYoshi said:

I don't know Japanese, so I don't know what an ahiru is. If it is a japanese duck, then its a DUCK. No matter what kind or where it is. Still a duck.

KyuuAL said:
On this note, our blanket word for everything animated is "animation". It would be nice if this whole "Japanese" vs "not Japanese" argument could be dropped altogether. However, it is not going to go away, not when Westerners continue to define media items in this fashion.

Back in the day, authors, critics, and animation industry specialists could have lumped Japanese animation with all other forms of animation back in the 1980's; but no, they chose to separate it.

Dark_Chaos said:

Anime is Anime and Animeesque is Animesque. It doesn't matter whether that is a good or bad thing. They are what they are, very clearly defined, and it is no subjective matter.

Animesque

Zalis said:
Many fans of Princess Tutu would disagree with you -- apparently, even in a European fairytale setting, "Ahiru" is a special super-important culturally-relevant untranslatable term that can't be rendered as "Duck."

KyuuAL said:
My criticism is that defining things as Japanese vs Not-Japanese has always been retarded. It's the West's fault for doing so.

EratiK said:
It's far from being retarded, on the contrary it's quite logical since anime has a content, a form, and means of production that have no equivalent around the world.

EratiK said:
I wish we had two terms to talk about American and Japanese literature.

Casval said:

Yes please

Old Spongebob>Every non-Mecha anime ever made

JizzyHitler said:

ren and stimpy > old spongebob > Every non-Mecha anime ever made

Syndrical said:
All of these posts gave me cancer.

KyuuAL said:


As for that word, nobody uses that gay French looking word. So, toss that word out.

FacelessVixen said:
If only I had a fuck to give.