| Note to all: I assume that many do not read another language besides English on MAL, and therefore I will ONLY use English links (and notable news outlets) to prove my points, such as BBC of England and other works. I would use Youtube, Russian, Ukrainian, or even Eastern Ukrainian news, but unless specified in a response, I will avoid using them so that the case I present before you now is as "unbiased" as possible. Ukraine currently and has faced multiple problems. These are and are not limited to: 1) Bankruptcy and other Financial issues Due to circumstances and the pressure of welfare: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/612921/Ukraine/30118/Health-and-welfare "The welfare system is financed through a payroll tax. This system came under increasing pressure as the ratio of workers to retirees narrowed in the early 21st century" As if to top this off--http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-07-11/gazprom-stuck-with-1-dot-8-billion-tax-bill-after-ukraine-defaults Ukraine not only faces bankruptcy but has an enormous gas bill it has not yet paid. And yet still, they charge Russia's Gazprom tax for BRINGING in Gas to Ukraine, and Ukraine refuses to pay for the gas. That makes smart sense, charging your gas company for giving you gas, and not even paying for the gas.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita#mediaviewer/File:Ukraine_GRP_per_capita_2008_US_dollars_(nominal).png As seen by this image, the darker, greener areas in this map of Ukraine display the areas with a greater GDP. In contrast, the population density of Ukraine as follows:  What many do not understand about Ukraine is that Ukraine CAN BE divided into three main regions--the South, the West, and the East--and each section has different roots and different cultures. It can be said that when one crosses the border between each region it is "as if one is entering a whole new country." Eastern Ukraine makes up a small portion of Ukraine, and yet contains a significant amount of GDP, versus other regions in Ukraine. It is not surprising that the Western Ukrainians desire the assets of the Eastern Ukrainians. Would you turn away or let go of 30%+ of your GDP? I think not. 2) Attempted repeal [in February] of the multi-language law (known as "On the principles of the state language policy") by the Interim government of Ukraine There are no notable American or English news articles on this, so no source can be provided. Such a news article would make Ukraine look bad towards the West, so it is not surprising no or few articles exist on this besides more right-wing or non-biased news websites, but of little fame. This attempted repeal would have disallowed the original "multi-language" law that provided that should any region have a minority group of speakers and/or ethnicity who make up 10% or up of the region's population, then that region may recognize that ethnicity's main language as a recognized, official language of the region. The result was the Crimea crisis. Not surprisingly so, many in the Eastern and Southern Ukraine regions were shocked and some were horrified, resulting further in protests throughout the regions alike. 3) Neo-nazi and foreign neo-nazi presence in the Volunteer battalions fighting alongside the Ukrainian Army Members of the Azov Battalion, an ultra-nationalistic group, include Swedish sniper "Skilt": http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28329329 This situation unfortunately plays down Ukraine's hand and insistence that they are simply nationalistic and posses no Nazi ideals or symbols. 4) The Hypocrisy of West Ukrainian Leaders - The Democratic Kleptocratic Oligarchy http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/05/25/228407/chocolate-king-is-landslide-winner.html?sp=/99/117/ http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/ukraine-battle-oligarchs-20147181130186548.html ~ Further space reserved and to be updated as needed ~ |
I stand with Freedom, no matter the cost, no matter the price. |
| You're appalled that a bunch of anime-loving shut-ins who see shows like No Game No Life as intellectual, would not be able to give a proper response to something real and thought out. I hate to tell you this, but this is not the place for politics and serious and intellectual discussion. Your energy is better spent taking this to a real news forum, or somewhere else that you may find a better suited audience. |
 |
| This reminds me of that one alt who kept trying to force his discussions of metallic composites and deoxyribonucleic acid upon us. He couldn't seem to understand why I kept riling him up about it. |
| "Ukraine CAN BE divided into three main regions" Not legally though. It would contradict with the constitution. You're right, the east of Ukraine increased it's GDP 20 times while the western region faltered. However, if the Ukraine would sign the EU association agreement, (However, a separate commercial agreement with the EU would be enough though.) Investors would mostly come to support the east of the Ukraine, because it has a well developed infrastructure. That could be a final step into the building of the 'middle-class'. All in all the east could financial benefit more with a help of the 'western investors' and its trade agreement with eastern Europe(Russia included). |
| TL;DR jkjk You will find most countries can be split up, France with Brittany, Belgium with Flanders, Spain with Catalonia, South and North Italy, also Venice. And ofc the UK with Scotland. |
Shadowslave13 said: Cyaegha said: This reminds me of that one alt who kept trying to force his discussions of metallic composites and deoxyribonucleic acid upon us. He couldn't seem to understand why I kept riling him up about it. You reminded me of someone that likes to listen to noise. He made a thread for it. Fuck that guy. yo this ain't the place for serious scientific discourse its filled to the brim with hikikomori weebs who dun finish high school juh feel |
Shadowslave13 said: Cyaegha said: yo this ain't the place for serious scientific discourse its filled to the brim with hikikomori weebs who dun finish high school juh feel My sentiments are not the same. I think that this place is filled with very intelligent, friendly, successful, and very very sociable people. Intelligent discussion is held here every day and everyone has surprising ethics that should not be possible in a place with anonymity. And now to the opening topic. Sadly I am not very knowledgeable in Ukraine and it's problems. I am glad that he took the time to compile this information but I simply do not have the time to read this. If someone could provide a summary it would be greatly appreciated and an excellent award awaits. tl;dr award snubbed |
SamuelLJackson said: You're appalled that a bunch of anime-loving shut-ins who see shows like No Game No Life as intellectual, would not be able to give a proper response to something real and thought out. I hate to tell you this, but this is not the place for politics and serious and intellectual discussion. Your energy is better spent taking this to a real news forum, or somewhere else that you may find a better suited audience. That at least I got one proper response is good enough. I'm just tired of the dweebs who keep posting random stuff thinking that they know everything after having read one news article. And yes, you're right. I do admit most of these anime-loving peeps aren't likely to focus on any strong political discussion especially on the hairy matter that is Ukraine. After all, what do we watch anime for? To escape from the world and reality would be one common answer, based on previous statistics I took at my last school. At any rate, thank you for the response. As to everyone else, call me a scrub, a try-hard, whatever you want. You can't put me down, just like I can't crush your happiness or your mentality by dumping all this heavy news upon y'all like a 500kg weight on your scale. Thank you, and have a good day. |
| I stand with Freedom, no matter the cost, no matter the price. |
SamuelLJackson said: You're appalled that a bunch of anime-loving shut-ins who see shows like No Game No Life as intellectual, would not be able to give a proper response to something real and thought out. I hate to tell you this, but this is not the place for politics and serious and intellectual discussion. Your energy is better spent taking this to a real news forum, or somewhere else that you may find a better suited audience. Although, my friend, I tell you something--on most news forums I've been to, people there have shown themselves to be more ignorant, more close-minded,more of a hardcore nationalistic brainwashed dweeb than people in MAL. I keep in mind that people who watch anime and read manga are more relatively tolerant to Asian and Eastern cultures than other groups and niches of people. An interesting statistic I can prove. But just like gamer groups, generally users of MAL are more likely to strongly disagree over a topic related to their society (as is expected of most societies) up to the point that flaming and trolling occur commonplace. Worse yet, the topic digresses and everyone moves to utilizing Ad Hominem (attack on one's character and not argument). |
| I stand with Freedom, no matter the cost, no matter the price. |
| As said, this is hardly the audience. In reality, the Current Events forums is just a guise for a Sports forum that also allows periods of news threads that no matter how serious the topic, gathers less posts than a the amount of posts an episode of a popular anime receives in less than a hour. --- In response to your points: 1) If the point of your argument here is that a independent E.Ukraine would have a stable economy, I would disagree. The thing about the economy is that if there is no domestic market for the goods of E.Ukraine, they will need to look to the International Market. However, trade means recognition, and the entirety of the West does not recognize a independent E.Ukraine. Granted E.Ukraine might be able to open the markets of the 'neutral' countries such as India and China, though not initially. E.Ukraine would have to prove it can sustain itself economically. Not to mention the substantial debt E.Ukraine itself will have when it completely secedes. The E.Ukrainians would have to solely rely on Russia for the initial years (bailout, and trade), and so far; the Ukraine situation has only been a burden on Russia economically. I don't know how much the classes of Russia can tolerate continual sanctions for a country that won't even be incorporated into the Federation. 2) Be aware that this vote as you said was only attempted. This proposed law was in fact defeated by a majority. The Ukrainians recognized the consequences of such a law.The only reason why this was such a factor was because the Russian media, especially RT, propagated the fear factor that Ukraine was trying to repress the ethnic Russians when this simply wasn't true, or at the very least not before the Crimean crisis. 3) It is well known that there are elements of neo-Nazi and ultra-nationalists in the Ukrainian government. It has been well reported in Western media as well, the BBC even had a small video documentary on this issue. The Right Sector and Svoboda were in fact crucial supporters in the Maidan and were very popular. With the advent of the Ukraine crisis, the government has taken a role in suppressing them from media and voters. They are slowly losing support as seen in the election where only 1% voted for Svoboda, 0.7% for Right Sector, as opposed to the early opinion polls and the almost unanimous popularity they had after the Maidan seized government. The majority of W.Ukrainians can understand that it would be dangerous for the future of Ukraine as it is. 4) I do not think there is any way one can solely blame one faction for hypocrisy and being disingenuous. Russia for example, lies about the initial troops coming into the Ukraine as 'local' militia. They also broke the Ukrainian Nuclear proliferation treaty in which Russia promised to 'respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine'. |
Orvieto said: As said, this is hardly the audience. In reality, the Current Events forums is just a guise for a Sports forum that also allows periods of news threads that no matter how serious the topic, gathers less posts than a the amount of posts an episode of a popular anime receives in less than a hour. --- In response to your points: 1) If the point of your argument here is that a independent E.Ukraine would have a stable economy, I would disagree. The thing about the economy is that if there is no domestic market for the goods of E.Ukraine, they will need to look to the International Market. However, trade means recognition, and the entirety of the West does not recognize a independent E.Ukraine. Granted E.Ukraine might be able to open the markets of the 'neutral' countries such as India and China, though not initially. E.Ukraine would have to prove it can sustain itself economically. Not to mention the substantial debt E.Ukraine itself will have when it completely secedes. The E.Ukrainians would have to solely rely on Russia for the initial years (bailout, and trade), and so far; the Ukraine situation has only been a burden on Russia economically. I don't know how much the classes of Russia can tolerate continual sanctions for a country that won't even be incorporated into the Federation. 2) Be aware that this vote as you said was only attempted. This proposed law was in fact defeated by a majority. The Ukrainians recognized the consequences of such a law.The only reason why this was such a factor was because the Russian media, especially RT, propagated the fear factor that Ukraine was trying to repress the ethnic Russians when this simply wasn't true, or at the very least not before the Crimean crisis. 3) It is well known that there are elements of neo-Nazi and ultra-nationalists in the Ukrainian government. It has been well reported in Western media as well, the BBC even had a small video documentary on this issue. The Right Sector and Svoboda were in fact crucial supporters in the Maidan and were very popular. With the advent of the Ukraine crisis, the government has taken a role in suppressing them from media and voters. They are slowly losing support as seen in the election where only 1% voted for Svoboda, 0.7% for Right Sector, as opposed to the early opinion polls and the almost unanimous popularity they had after the Maidan seized government. The majority of W.Ukrainians can understand that it would be dangerous for the future of Ukraine as it is. 4) I do not think there is any way one can solely blame one faction for hypocrisy and being disingenuous. Russia for example, lies about the initial troops coming into the Ukraine as 'local' militia. They also broke the Ukrainian Nuclear proliferation treaty in which Russia promised to 'respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine'. 1) Yes, I agree, not much to say about this. Since Eastern Ukraine doesn't have as many production facilities as Western Ukraine, but holds a more significant portion of the natural resources vs. Western Ukraine (based on density per square mile). In fact, the current civil war reminds me of the American Civil War. The cases here are almost starkly similar, except that we have a more socialist and not necessarily uniting Western Ukraine. The Western Ukrainians have more of the factories, the Eastern Ukrainians (replace cotton) have natural resources. The two sides also have "righteous causes" to fight for. Personally in this case I find the Eastern cause to be more significant and better, which is subjective to whether you love freedom or union. 2) Definitely. The whole issue of Crimea and the anti-multinational law caused a lot of struggle and strife between neighbors. I think the most important thing to note here is that though they are ethnic Russians, they are still Ukrainians. After all, do we say Germans who live and become incorporated with American society, and become citizens, are Germans? No, we call them German-Americans, or simply Americans. Not until we ask for ethnicity only do we call them Germans, and pure Germans. The truth is if you look at news websites such as USATODAY.com and other various American news outlets, they tend to label the "Pro-Russia Separatists or Rebels" and other such as *KEY WORD HERE* PRO RUSSIAN. Yes, there are volunteer fighters from Russia fighting with the Separatists. However, it is important to know--80% of East Ukraine is Ethnic-Ukrainian, and only roughly 20% is Ethnic Russian. This isn't counting Ukrainians who mixed their blood. They are all still Ukrainians. And also, quite a lot of East Ukrainians are not Pro-Russian--they merely want freedom from the oppression of the Western Government of Ukraine. There has been a lot of strife between West and East Ukraine prior to the civil war, and arguably this is not only due to economic differences but because the arms and the legs of Ukraine cannot agree on who is more important, when in fact they fail to recognize they are more or less equal, and working together is vital to the future of Ukraine as a whole. 3) Indeed, the Right Sector and Svoboda have played less of a part after Maidan, but the ultra-nationalists still exist. The fact that they played a significant part of Maidan revolution is important. In fact, there are still Maidan protestors protesting the new government. I agree with you that most Ukrainians would view the ultra-nationalistic extremism to be non-beneficial to the country. As much as some Ukrainians hate Russians and ethnic Russians, I'm sure they desire peace (as do most Russian citizens, who wants war?). Nobody wants war, as far as I can tell, except country governments, big defense businesses, and land-hungry rulers. 4) That is true, no doubt each country lies to their own. I cannot agree with what you said about lying about initial troops coming into Ukraine--if you are referring to the "invasion of Crimea" than maybe so, they did look like VDV members. But in regards to the current civil war of Ukraine, the Russian government has merely turned a blind eye to the volunteer fighters (as all Russian men have requisite military training) who wish to fight for East Ukrainian Sovereignty. But the Ukrainian Nuclear proliferation treaty is a small treaty to break in light of the others that both Ukraine and Russia have broken within these past few months. |
JayexJul 25, 2014 11:01 AM
| I stand with Freedom, no matter the cost, no matter the price. |
| The Problem is the Ukraine is simply a country that should never have existed with east and western area's detesting each other and have almost polar opposite views. Personally I'd say split the country up but the problem with that is most of the Industry and resources are in the east and south of the country which would leave the west with next to nothing. BTW the US broke the Ukrainian Nuclear proliferation treaty along time ago by interfering and tampering in the Ukraines politics for well over a decade. |
Newhopes said: Personally I'd say split the country up but the problem with that is most of the Industry and resources are in the east and south of the country which would leave the west with next to nothing. Exactly why I say in the end it is all about money. Who in their right mind lets go of a large portion of their nation's GDP? |
| I stand with Freedom, no matter the cost, no matter the price. |
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