Why are shojo manga underestimated?

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Jul 2018

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Dont worry its ok. Thanks for your answer.

I think your right that the same issue sadly plague any fiction/media/uh thing at all presented as "for girls". Sadly. But wow that's so annoying. And frustrating. Because as with any stuff "girl stuff" as trash and diamonds and people only see trash and dont get the diamond because of that attitude. I'm not wanting to talk bad about people who still spread false information and stereotype on shojo and other girls stuff even less with people who try and disliked everyone has their own taste but yeah...i'm often disappointed by people who say they disliked but never tried...its like kids with vegetables really how do you know you dislike it if you did not try tasting it? Maybe I should take that in a more calm way indeed. Its just upset me a lot to see people limit themselves when they can enjoy stuff outside of their comfort zone and wont try to.

Well tons of shojo indeed dont really are focused on high school romance, for an example a whole popular shojo subgenre is magical girl that's mostly about girls fighting with magic powers...often as it can look enough alike a magical shonen that's a door that works to let people more used to shonen enter the shojo world and enjoy it...like tons of guys did love Sailor Moon they did see with others usually more shonen animes popular at the same time on tv at the time but pretended not to in public. As for substance, depth and character developpement well many shojo have it in spades...the best ones...even some typical high school romance shojo have it...but most shojo have it average...just like most shonen has it average and only the best transcends that...its a rarity in every genre of manga (or fiction really). So i dont think its fair to only criticize shojo for it as a average shonen or a bad shonen never get as much criticized as being very bad as much as a average of bad shojo is usually.

Apr 21, 2023 7:26 PM

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Sylpheline said:
shojo specialized websites

Nobody trying to avoid girly manga will ever visit those websites. I am more likely to discover your favorites if you promote them on a general manga site like this one. Don't tell people Sukeban Deka is a great manga "for girls." Tell them instead that it's a manga with a great story and characters. Unless a given manga is filled with excessive gender stereotypes, many readers won't know which demographic it's for without being told.

その目だれの目？

Apr 21, 2023 8:20 PM

ᴛʜʀᴇᴀᴅ★ʀᴇᴀᴘᴇʀ

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Dec 2018

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@yuurei_tokyo definitely hit the nail on the head, especially on the "shoujo manga = romance" stereotype.
also i guess by that definition Life isn't shoujo anymore

For crying out loud, two new seasonals have entire threads in their dedicated forums asking if they are shoujo or not lol
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2089205
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2087477

It really hurts my head seeing everyone call the latter a shoujo everywhere, from shoujo enthusiasts to even Crunchyroll. People are overthinking and accepting demographic tags as genres when they're not; they're simply marketing tags decided NOT BY US but by publishers and companies. In the case of shoujo, all it literally means is that the manga tagged with that label was specifically made for preteen girls in mind. Not necessarily exclusive to that demographic, as we can tell with Shounen Jump's large female readership despite (primarily) aiming at preteen boys and how fujoshi essentially resulted in the types of shounen manga that we see today.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm tired; I could be rn from work and visitors on top of semi-ranting, but also I've lost count at the amount of rec threads asking "no shoujo" with no explanation on that. I at least try to explain why I don't want stuff like ecchi and hentai on my own recommendation boards, so maybe that's why I find the lack of explanation for others to be very weird.

Lucifrost's suggestion for recommending shoujo to others is a good idea, but I'd also like to mention that we should try recommending shoujo manga to those on the board that seem open to some and are specifically asking for manga. What I mean is, maybe someone interested in some dark manga would like some shoujo recs if you just toss them in without mentioning the demographic. What I also mean is that we should try not to send random shoujo recs to people asking specifically for anime recommendations, or sharing something like Tokyo Mew Mew when the OP asked for more isekai harem anime (lol). We need to keep a civil, respectful approach when getting others to appreciate shoujo more. :)

Apr 21, 2023 9:01 PM

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Fario-P said:
Not necessarily exclusive to that demographic, as we can tell with Shounen Jump's large female readership despite (primarily) aiming at preteen boys and how fujoshi essentially resulted in the types of shounen manga that we see today.

It goes both ways. Stuff like Skip and Loafer (whatever that is) exists because publishers caught boys reading shoujo romances and realized the genre could be used to sell more shounen and seinen magazines.

その目だれの目？

Apr 22, 2023 12:20 AM

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Its ok to be ranty dont worry about that. As for this categories of shounen, shojo and seinen being questionable marketing anyway i do agree. I mean do we says this movie is for teenage boys, preteen girls, adult etc...that's would sound pretty weird. The gender classification like this movie is horror, polar, sci fi, romance etc...would makes way more sense but the rare editors that try to push this change in manga edition at least where am I have a difficult time because most people here are still wanting the japan style classification when they search for manga so it will not get this change soon any likely. And yeah its pretty stupid because for an example guys who are geeks and love manga because they love fantasy stories if they avoid shojo thinking its just romance will miss many of the best fantasy manga. But yeah your right we have to "hide" the fact its shojo to get some into it...some editors even willingly misplace some look alike enough shojo in shounen or seinen where am i so that's they found more public but its a criticized strategy because then the shojo stigma remains and is kind of perpetuated by that like if the shojo is good enough and near enough to shounen/seinen its change editorial category makes the shojo category look like a trashbin even more which its not.

Yeah this categories are indeed not really having that much meaning people see into them any way but then i thinked hell shounen romance even high school one do exist and never get as dismissed as the same classical shojo in the style...well the popular manga that i think about first when people talk about high school romance with childhood friend is Love Hina so a shounen even if well its the typical shonen that many people mistake as shojo and its usually is well liked by guys even if the fanservice elements probably do have their place in why they like it so much, but i still meet some guys who refused to touch Love Hina with a "its a romance keep it to you girls its not for guys"...while indeed its target demographic is guys in the first place. That one is absurd. Also Junji ito is very well lauded for his horror manga that are indeed quality but many people think its seinen as they are pretty dark and scary but indeed his first works were published in shojo magazines because in Japan horror is considers a genre targeting women...like we dont even have the same idea of which kind of fiction please more women or more men than the Japanese so keeping their tradition classification system for manga sell in west is even more nonsense.

And yeah even if its pretty classical shojo...i lost the count of guys pretending Nana isnt one just because of the more mature themes that they expected and the fact they did like reading it. Well as for the fact its way easier to found girls liking shonen that guys liking shojo my best guess is that its have to do with the fact that boy targeted fiction usually is consider universal and girl targeted fiction a pink ghetto for girls only sadly. Well yeah no shojo i dont like romance is pretty bad argument as well even if they usually is a romance they are shojo that do not even have one and there many and the romantic one which are not purely romantic but also comedy, horror, detective stories, sci fi etc...anything people could like for that part are well a lot of existing shojo.

Yeah of course i will not send a plenty kawaii shojo to someone who wants gore and blood. Nor random shojo recs for someone who asked nothing or just new manga/anime without specification...obviously but your right if someone ask for i dont know new comedy manga to read/anime to watch putting a good comedy shojo in the recs among others is a good strategy thanks.

removed-userApr 22, 2023 12:27 AM

Apr 22, 2023 6:25 AM

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Sylpheline said:
in Japan horror is considers a genre targeting women.

Do you have a source for that? I know Chie Shinohara wrote a lot of horror, but her titles are not as popular as Drifting Classroom or GeGeGe no Kitaro which ran in shounen magazines. Only 15 anime have both the "shoujo" and "horror" tags, and even fewer have good scores.
https://myanimelist.net/anime.php?cat=anime&q=&type=0&score=0&status=0&p=0&r=0&sm=0&sd=0&sy=0&em=0&ed=0&ey=0&c%5B%5D=a&c%5B%5D=b&c%5B%5D=c&c%5B%5D=f&genre%5B%5D=14&genre%5B%5D=25

その目だれの目？

Apr 22, 2023 6:41 AM

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Well here its about Monthly Halloween very famous prepublication shojo horror manga magazine :https://www.ghoulsmagazine.com/articles/junji-ito-monthly-halloween-and-the-rise-of-shojo-horror (yeah nobody knows that but Tomie is shojo), also if you think about it many horror movies like Ringu and survival horror games like Resident Evil or Project Zero in Japan focus on female characters in part because of big women audience. Its also cultural because of many scary women ghost traditional lore in Japan but well...in France where am I they are as many women as men in horror movies cinema now sometimes even more so really horror is for teen guys might be a cliche only teen guys believe anywhere. Monthly Halloween was the first all-horror shōjo manga magazine, released by Asahi Sonorama. It began publication on (Friday) 13th December 1985, a response to the growing popularity of Western horror movies in Japan at the time amongst teenage girls.So yeah i may have overstated it a bit but teenage women loving horror enough to get their own monthly horror shojo magazine and targeted horror movies is a japanese common reality.

Apr 22, 2023 7:05 AM

#10

yuurei_tokyo

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Lucifrost said:

Sylpheline said:
shojo specialized websites

Good point. Half the time, when I recommend shoujo series to people, I don't specify that it's shoujo and instead just say that it's good. Given the negative attitudes towards shoujo, it's more likely they'll pikc it up if they don't know what demographic it comes from.

I'm either crashing out or fujoing out.

Apr 22, 2023 10:35 PM

#11

UnoPuntoCinco

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Oct 2013

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I have read a few shojo and josei manga (like three in total), my opinion on the stories are mixed: some were better than others. So regarding the quality of scripting I found them the same as the rest of the demographics. Now, what put me off since the very beggining was the artstyle: it has too much empty space for my tastes, a lot of the time backgrounds would just disappeared. At times it just felt really lazy.

Apr 23, 2023 2:22 AM

#12

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UnoPuntoCinco said:
I have read a few shojo and josei manga (like three in total), my opinion on the stories are mixed: some were better than others. So regarding the quality of scripting I found them the same as the rest of the demographics. Now, what put me off since the very beggining was the artstyle: it has too much empty space for my tastes, a lot of the time backgrounds would just disappeared. At times it just felt really lazy.

Well its kind of true to most shojo title that do have very blank background to focus on characters and their relationships but they are many exceptions to that rule. For an example Akagami Shirayuki hime is a fantasy shojo with a fairy tale style about a girl who is a healer and the backgrounds with medicinal plants are usually beautiful with lots of details you can even guess the plant she use if you know botanic enough. Also tons of sucessful shonen do not have that much great art either but get people in because of the stories. Now if your the kind to be really picky about the art that understandable most shojo wouldnt be of your taste but you could still enjoy some with art you like. Then look at most well known shojo artists drawings and choose the one who appeal the more to your own artistic taste. For an exemple i love gothic lolita aesthetic and its part of why i enjoy Kaori Yuki works and drawing a lot like in the Angel Cage artbooks but maybe you dont and would like a totally different style of drawing...then my best guess to shojo you might enjoy would be for you to see what shonen/seinen artists drawings you like the most and see if some shojo drawer have a near style of drawing you might like, usually there is as many do all this genre for an example Clamp has done both shonen like Code Geass and shojo like Card Captor Sakura and been acclaims for the graphic style of both series. First is shonen second is shojo they have same drawers and therefore drawing style so yeah see if the drawers you like the most in manga did some shojo that might be a good start then to find a shojo you might like.

Apr 23, 2023 7:01 AM

#13

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Sylpheline said:
Clamp has done both shonen like Code Geass and shojo like Card Captor Sakura and been acclaims for the graphic style of both series. First is shonen second is shojo they have same drawers and therefore drawing style so yeah see if the drawers you like the most in manga did some shojo that might be a good start then to find a shojo you might like.

CLAMP never drew a Code Geass manga, which makes it a poor counter to the complaint that shoujo artists draw manga with empty backgrounds. But CLAMP did draw shounen and seinen including Angelic Layer, Chobits, xxxholic, and Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle. I like your suggestion of checking out artists who worked with a variety of demographics. Tezuka himself drew Princess Knight and Unico for shoujo magazines, with the latter serialized in full color.

その目だれの目？

Apr 23, 2023 10:03 AM

#14

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Yeah Tezuka's Princess Knight is good classic old school shojo and he indeed did draw it like he usually draw. Good suggestion. As for Code geass they never did a manga yeah but they did the chara design and very acclaimed artbook Mutuality. But yeah it was more a generic look shojo author can draw well and are well considered for their art even when they draw for a shonen that a good answer for the more precise argument of empty backgrounds you're right. I tried to seek for precise pages with a good drawn background in well reputed shojo classic but its not that easy finding such pages to prove it (especially one you can show legally) if any of you can it would be cool.

And indeed how Tsubasa as a shonen is kind of the alternative future of Card Captor Sakura story which is shojo and they do have the same elaborated drawing by same artists with a different take on same characters is a pretty big argument on the "shojo and shonen are not that different" statement. (Also on a side note Chobits is definitively in concurrence with Love Hina in the "shonen most people mistake as shojo award" and i think its has a lot to do with how Chii is drawn).

removed-userApr 23, 2023 10:18 AM

Apr 23, 2023 11:38 AM

#15

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Sylpheline said:
Also on a side note Chobits is definitively in concurrence with Love Hina in the "shonen most people mistake as shojo award" and i think its has a lot to do with how Chii is drawn

Chobits is seinen. Drug & Drop is also seinen, even thought it's the continuation of the shoujo manga Lawful Drug. Do you know why a manga would move from a shoujo magazine to a seinen magazine after an 8 year hiatus? Nobody has been able to explain it to me.

Also, do people really mistake Love Hina for shoujo? It's old enough that I no longer hear anyone discussing the series, but I was under the impression it's full of fanservice. Chobits has fanservice too.

その目だれの目？

Apr 23, 2023 12:36 PM

#16

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Yes for Love Hina. Here in France its still popular because it was a big one in my generation when we discovered manga as young teens and lots of people still get big nostalgia for Love Hina therefore and the number of otaku guys who told me "I dont like shojo except love hina" is beyond belief for them romance=shojo even with all the obvious male oriented fanservice. Yes Chobits has a lot of fanservice...i didnt knew it was seinen...really nothing really make it more adult than average shonen from my memory of it. Ecchi fanservice is a big hint of male targeted shows yes but lots of people seem to not notice that. As for why a manga would move from a shoujo magazine to a seinen magazine i dont know. I'm far from a expert as you can see with all the errors but still i do think how fleeting this categories are and how really the only thing that say what shojo/shonen/seinen is ultimately is which prebublication magazine it was in first which most people here in the western world give no shit about yeah this words are almost meaningless so that makes rejecting shojo just because it is shojo even sadder. Also the general dismissing of shojo is part of why its harder to get to know the titles in that category better especially the not so well known ones and they are lot of pearls i think when you love manga its only natural to wants to get to know there diversity better and the bad reputation of shojo dont help knowing that part of the overall manga landscape better, realizing I dont know enough about it because even as a woman who do read shojo i long privileged shonen not consciously is part of what got me wanting to do it more justice now that i realized i did dismiss it in the past unfairly. Shojo isnt that easy to define but at the same time there is a "shojo style" in a way that come across many of these because the magazine publishing it have their own image and publish series that get along with it.

So as for what is even shojo in the first place i did read to be sure i dont make mistake a top 100 of manga in nautiljon a anime/manga website from my country with a rich database and the most popular titles right now they did categorize shojo were : Fruits Basket, Orange, Blue Spring Ride, Vampire Knight, Nana, Yona of The Down, Switch Girl, Card Captor Sakura, Maidsama, LDK and Shugo Chara...what do they have in common? Most have a girl in the cover, most have romance as part of their main theme, even if yeah we already said before that its definitively not all shojo that are featuring romance a strong minority do not its still true the ones that are the face of shojo/the most well known ones do indeed, and yes of course many of these characters are teens with school life as one of the main theme but not all even in the most well known titles, friendship is a common theme and so are relationships between humans in general, and therefore tend to get more character based than plot based stories (with many exceptions), its usually involves the reader with lot of feelings, get a average girl as the main character and beautiful guy or guys has the love and/or lust interests, and lot of characters dialogues sometimes starting to read more like a novel that a comic for the wordiest ones, some are very realistic, others are heavy in magic and fantasy worlds/creatures/themes, some are comedy, some are tearjerkers, some are magical girls with a lot of magic fight so action and adventures (kind of) well its a bit too short a collection to get an idea of where shojo can get in some of its niche but for the average shojo i guess that do get a fair idea of what people will found in it...but i would not say if your allergic to these formulas you should give up on shojo completely because lesser known more original ones might suit your tastes.

I didnt count the josei even if its arguable. Didnt count the yaoi either even if some considers its shojo substyle its different enough for most to separate both so i didnt.

Apr 26, 2023 12:29 AM

#17

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I've found ten very well reputed shojo without romance it just taken a little more time searching them but the do exist and are popular among lot of shojo fans and average manga fans, here are there mal sum up :

1) Children of the whales : https://myanimelist.net/manga/69007/Kujira_no_Kora_wa_Sajou_ni_Utau

Located inside the Mud Whale that endlessly soars through a sea of sand, there is a community divided in two: the Marked majority who are capable of using a power called "thymia" at the cost of their lifespan; and the Unmarked, who are unable to wield such an ability but have regular lifespans and hold positions of authority. Diagnosed with hypergraphia, 14-year-old Chakuro is the archivist of the Mud Whale, with the responsibility of recording everything that happens on the island and other uncharted places.

During one mission to explore a foreign island, Chakuro encounters a wounded girl with no memories. She immediately tries to attack him, only to pass out and be taken to the Mud Whale by Chakuro himself. The girl's existence is shrouded in mystery, as no one has ever met a human from the outside world before. Furthermore, her lack of emotions and skilled combat abilities demonstrate that her life experience is vastly different from those inside the Mud Whale.

With the sudden appearance of the girl nicknamed "Lykos," Chakuro is about to uncover what lies beyond the Mud Whale—forever changing his destiny in the most unbelievable way

2) Ludwig Revolution : https://myanimelist.net/manga/975/Ludwig_Kakumei

In this grim and realistic take on classic fairy tales, Prince Ludwig, a female corpse collector, is ordered by his father to find himself a wife more suitable than the women he often brings into the castle. Along with his servant Wilhelm, they travel across the land in search of fair maidens from classic stories in hopes of finding Ludwig a wife. Follow lot of fantasy comic adventures with morbid comedy parody of classic fairy tales.

3) Tomie : https://myanimelist.net/manga/912/Tomie
In a high school classroom, students mourn the loss of one of their own: Tomie Kawakami, who has been murdered and dismembered. Shocked by the announcement of her death, the class is puzzled by the cruel fate that has befallen someone so dear to them; such a radiant and beautiful girl did not deserve such a hideous demise. However, a strikingly familiar student suddenly appears at the classroom's entrance. Gorgeous, slender, and with a beauty mark under her left eye, Tomie smiles and apologizes for being late.

But this is just the beginning of the mysteries surrounding this seemingly inhuman woman. The men unlucky enough to catch her eye become smitten with her instantly, but also become driven by a dark impulse to dismember her, one they often succumb to. And each time, Tomie returns from the dead to continue her favorite pastime: toying with men.

4) Angels of Death

With dead and lifeless eyes, Rachel Gardner wishes only to die. Waking up in the basement of a building, she has no idea how or why she's there. She stumbles across a bandaged murderer named Zack, who is trying to escape. After promising to kill her as soon as he is free, Rachel and Zack set out to ascend through the building floor by floor until they escape.

However, as they progress upward, they meet more twisted people, and all of them seem familiar with Rachel. What is her connection to the building, and why was she placed in it? Facing a new boss on each floor, can Rachel and Zack both achieve their wishes?

5) Requiem of Rose King : https://myanimelist.net/manga/61097/Baraou_no_Souretsu

The crown of England has been hotly contested throughout history, and in the Middle Ages, a series of great civil wars becomes known as the War of the Roses. Claiming a right to the throne, the Duke of York seeks to unseat King Henry VI and his heir in order to become king himself.

On a dark day filled with many ill omens, the Duke gains a son: Richard Plantagenet, third of his name. Neither male nor female, but instead possessing characteristics of both sexes, Richard III is immediately reviled by his mother. Her hatred defines his childhood, leading to a deep disgust toward his own body and an adverse reaction to being called a demon.

Richard grows up troubled by visions of England's former foe, Joan of Arc, who taunts that he will bring ruin to all who know him. He believes that he can attain salvation by helping his father achieve his destiny of becoming the king. However, cursed by the expectations of both his mother and Joan, will Richard's actions instead drag his family down into darkness?

6) Life (someone already talked that one on good non romantic shojo above but indeed it is so to those who dont know about it yet) : https://myanimelist.net/manga/407/Life

Ayumu Shiiba has always struggled when it comes to her grades, but decides to study even harder so that she can go to Nishidate High School with her best friend Yuuko Shinozuka. When the results of the entrance exams came out, it turns out that Ayumu herself passed, but unfortunately, Shinozuka did not. Consequently, Shinozuka reveals everything she had felt about Ayumu—nothing but resentment.

Depressed that her closest friend has now deserted her, Ayumu finds a way to make her temporarily forget the loneliness: self-injury. As a result, she chooses to be alone and quickly becomes an outcast at her new school, refusing to socialize with anyone. Yet when her classmate Manami Anzai suddenly befriends her, Ayumu's world seems to brighten—but little does she know that something more horrible would start coming her way.

Life is the story of a certain girl's isolation, a tale filled with despair and persecution enough to bring any person to the brink of insanity. However, only the strongest will find the light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how impossible the odds may seem.

7) Clover : https://myanimelist.net/manga/113/Clover

Retiring as a soldier of the government of a high-tech city, Fay Ryu Kazuhiko's transition into civilian life is cut short when his superior, General Ko, summons him. Having a leaf imprinted onto his hand by code, Kazuhiko is entrusted with a secret task to deliver a "package"—a girl with white hair and evergreen eyes whom he finds singing in a birdcage-like building. All Kazuhiko knows is that her name is Suu, and for whatever reason, she wishes to go to Fairy Park.

As his friends Lan and Gingetsu help set up a transport module for the duo, Kazuhiko suspects that there is more to Suu than he knows. Not only is their transport intercepted, but the two are also pursued by Bols—a face that is uncomfortably familiar to Kazuhiko and who seems to have received his own mission to seek out Suu. The truth behind the discreet nature of this operation, Suu's existence, and even a possible connection between her and Kazuhiko may all be linked to just one word: clover.

8) Jigoku Shojo : https://myanimelist.net/manga/3243/Jigoku_Shoujo

It is said that if someone seeks revenge, they should dig two graves—and this is especially true of those who use the Hell Correspondence website. At the stroke of midnight, this ominous web domain becomes accessible, and whoever inputs the name of their grudge will get a visit from Ai Enma, the Hell Girl. Ai explains that she will send the target's soul to hell, but the requester will also end up in hell when they die.

For some, that price is far too steep; for others, where they will spend their afterlife has no bearing on their current, day-to-day hell. But one thing is certain: the Hell Girl will always be available to those in need of revenge, while she stoically performs her duty of ferrying souls into the darkness.

9) Ballad x Opera https://myanimelist.net/manga/110891/Ballad_x_Opera
Haruto "Haru" Touma dies in an absurd manner, bowled over by a black cat falling out of the sky and knocking his head against the pavement. After his soul leaves his body, he is approached by an angel who apologizes for killing him by mistake! Apparently this angel, "Shiro," is the partner of the black cat, "Kuro," who is actually a shape-shifting demon. The two are looking for a young human destined to die soon who they can turn into a "shinigami." Although Haru's death was by accident rather than fate, they decide to take advantage of the situation and extend their offer to him.

Six months prior, Haru had lost both his family and memories to a traumatic fire set by an arsonist. Unable to recall his parents and sister, he could not properly mourn them, so he had lived his life with a sense of detachment and feelings of guilt. After learning of Haru's personal history, the angel and demon decide to sweeten the deal: if he cooperates with them as a shinigami and collects the souls of sinners who have escaped Heaven, then when all is done, it may be possible to return him to the day of the fire so he can regain his memories. With that incentive, the contract between them is sealed, and in his afterlife Haru gains a reason to live that is stronger than any conviction he had while still alive.

10) Sayonara miniskirt https://myanimelist.net/manga/114822/Sayonara_Miniskirt

Pure Club is a popular idol group beloved by people all over the world. However, some fans harbor darker feelings than just love—something Karen Amamiya comes to understand all too well when a hooded, rain-soaked man cuts her arm at a handshake event. Following the incident, Karen quits Pure Club and disappears from the public eye.

Nina Kamiyama is a girl who doesn't want to look feminine at all, cutting her hair short and opting to wear the male uniform at her high school. But soon, a girl at a nearby school is assaulted, so all the high schools in the area cancel the girls' after school activities, urging them to walk home in groups. Hikaru Horiuchi, a boy in the judo club, sees that Kamiyama is still walking home alone, despite the school's warnings. One day, he stumbles upon Kamiyama as she is walking home and discovers her secret: she was Karen, the former idol in the center position of Pure Club.

But Horiuchi isn't the only one who knows about Kamiyama's former life—her assailant does too, and he is lurking in the shadows, waiting for the perfect time to strike again.

So yeah if you dont like romance but want to try shojo without it try them they might please you and only if no classic romantic shojo nor anything in the above list is of your taste then yeah you can say for sure you mostly dont like any kind of shojo at all, if only such titles have you interest you can say i love shojo but only the not romantic and/or not focused on romance too much for my tastes ones and that's ok. But not before. Before you dont know enough shojo to judge it as a whole media you can just say i didnt like the one i've read, then that avoid perpetuate unfair stigma on manga classified as such and might get you to unexpected enjoyable discoveries. They are others less known pearls of course but that's enough to give a idea of shojo diversity outside the classic romance i guess.

Also for people saying shojo is immature well josei exist its like shojo but targeted at more mature women adults ones. Its just not the same genre.

removed-userApr 27, 2023 2:38 AM

Apr 26, 2023 12:40 AM

#18

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And when i finally compiled them after searching it for a few days i discover someone already made here a shoujo/josei manga with no romance list here off course (damn should have been more lazy/clever and seek it first) : https://myanimelist.net/stacks/1545

Apr 26, 2023 7:07 AM

#19

its_yeeshu_69

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Oct 2022

The Person who had read Shounen or Seinen would never like Shojo because it feels to Simple and Cringy as compare to shounen or Seinen and Specially Seinen readers need Quality / Mature Quality which they wont find in Shojo

Apr 26, 2023 8:03 AM

#20

ᴛʜʀᴇᴀᴅ★ʀᴇᴀᴘᴇʀ

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Dec 2018

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its_yeeshu_69 said:
The Person who had read Shounen or Seinen would never like Shojo because it feels to Simple and Cringy as compare to shounen or Seinen and Specially Seinen readers need Quality / Mature Quality which they wont find in Shojo

Which shoujo feels "simple and cringy" to you? Your lists don't have a single shoujo title in them, so I'm genuinely curious.

Apr 26, 2023 8:38 AM

#21

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Feb 2016

14960

Sylpheline said:
Card Captor sakura clear card : https://myanimelist.net/manga/98374/Cardcaptor_Sakura__Clear_Card-hen

Is both an arc without romance and consider a other manga than the rest of the CCS series so

Clear Card is longer than the original manga.
https://chibiyuuto.com/2022/12/28/card-captor-sakura-clear-card-arc-to-actually-end-on-volume-15
It's also a poor example of a story without romance given that nobody new to the franchise will begin with Clear Card. The 90s Sakura Card arc is full of romance and is boring.

its_yeeshu_69 said:
would never like Shojo because it feels to Simple and Cringy as compare to shounen

Whatever you say. 🙄

その目だれの目？

Apr 26, 2023 8:59 AM

#22

its_yeeshu_69

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Oct 2022

Fario-P said:

Which shoujo feels "simple and cringy" to you? Your lists don't have a single shoujo title in them, so I'm genuinely curious.

Bro I didn't Put every Manga in My List

Apr 26, 2023 10:43 AM

#23

MetalPower26

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Mar 2021

Well, first of all I don't think that shoujo is a bad genre, but I do agree that it's easy to see why it's unpopular.

First
Shoujo (and jousei too) is a genre that I don't really like. I do read them sometimes if they're interesting, and I do have some on my list like Glass Mask or Last Game which are among the ones that I really enjoy. But, for me, it's very hard to find good ones. Even when I'm only browsing through the top mangas for shoujo, I easily see a few that I don't like. For example, Kimi ni Todoke, or Kamisama Hajimemashita, or Kaichou wo maid sama (which I didn't finish, aka dropped) are mediocre at best. So, I don't actively search for mangas that are shoujo. (I'm planning to read Nana and Fruits Basket don't get mad at me)

Second
Shoujo, especially the old ones, has that really weird art style that I think isn't for everyone. Weird eyes, odd anatomy shapes, and THE ROSES BACKGROUND!! Those are the few things that I dislike about the art. But, the new ones actually have nice art, and I'll gladly recommend them to people who likes things like that. (I even succesfully recommended Taiyou no Ie to someone once)

Third
Lastly, shoujo has extremely appaling scans. They're so bad that I have to squint to see the drawings. Also, old shoujo mangas are usually drawn with rather thin gray lines that aren't scanned well. Last time, I wanted to read Full Moon wo Sagashite, but the scans were really bad that I had to drop it.

Then, I want to also add my favorites.

All in all, I still won't search for shoujo actively, and I don't think I'll recommend it to my friends any time soon. (They're all shonen type of readers)
But, I'm still free for recommendations if you have some. (And something similar to the ones I've already read are extremely welcomed)

That's all I guess.

Apr 26, 2023 10:50 AM

#24

Short_Circut

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Jul 2017

8316

not that i disagree that seinen is the superior demo to all, but to say the people who read shounen would find shoujo simple and cringy is laughable at worst

as for the op, I think a part of it is commonly associated most shoujo = romances but specifically a lot of them are quite similar. With a bad shounen romance even though it takes a lot of the horrendous tropes from shounen romance, they still have different concepts to fall back to. Like Soredemo Ayumu wa Yosetekuru, Saeki-san wa Nemutteru and Love is Still Too Early for Himeno-chan are 3 shounen I consider to be utter shite romances, but they all have unique concepts (relatively speaking) to fall back on, so you at least have something else to look forward to reading. Comparing to shoujo, often the stories themselves are quite similar beyond just sharing tropes (looking specifically at romances here). Even great ones like A Sign of Affection or Mairimashita Senpai are still at their core what you'd find in tons of other shoujo even the bad ones

ofc there are non-romance shoujo, but shoujo as a whole gets equated to romance more often than it doesn't. So when people start to look at it from that perspective, it's probably why shoujo gets a bad rep and asked not to be recommended even if there are good series' out there

List of romance anime with actual romance in them --------------------------------------------------------------------------- List of romance Manga with actual romance in them

'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped'

Apr 26, 2023 11:09 AM

#25

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Feb 2016

14960

MetalPower26 said:
Lastly, shoujo has extremely appaling scans.

That might actually be true. I don't think I've ever read shounen manga with scans as bad as Candy Candy or RG Veda.
There isn't much I can recommend, since our taste doesn't seem very similar. Perhaps you would like Kageki Shoujo, a theater series.

その目だれの目？

Apr 26, 2023 3:32 PM

#26

ᴛʜʀᴇᴀᴅ★ʀᴇᴀᴘᴇʀ

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Dec 2018

8637

its_yeeshu_69 said:

Fario-P said:

Which shoujo feels "simple and cringy" to you? Your lists don't have a single shoujo title in them, so I'm genuinely curious.

Bro I didn't Put every Manga in My List

Okay then, ignore my remark about your list there and enlighten me; what shoujo manga did you read that you thought was cringey?

Apr 26, 2023 7:39 PM

#27

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Feb 2016

14960

Fario-P said:
what shoujo manga did you read that you thought was cringey?

I can name many shoujo anime and manga that made me cringe.

Yona of the Dawn
Dragon Ball
One Piece
Fruits Basket
Tokyo Babylon
Yu-Gi-Oh
The Heart of Thomas
Fullmetal Alchemist

We're better off sticking with shounen.

その目だれの目？

Apr 26, 2023 11:52 PM

#28

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Jul 2018

561867

From what i remember the original Sakura there is romance yes but its not really the core plot...i mean the only explicit romance there really is that's the not reciprocated Sakura little girl crush on Yukito if that even count has romance, that's end up being a broken dream because its unshared and the romance between her and Syaoran at the end...there lot of other suggested couples but they do not really get a huge focus on...most episodes even in the original are about the card and their capture in a almost Pokemon style like of episode construction from what i remember of my childhood so i admit i never considered it that much more romantic than Pokemon because really focused on the romance are only a few episodes and its really kid style romance...i mean its not the kind like vampire knight where its the main theme its more magical girl i know many guys who cant stand classic shojo romance and do like such magical girls for the magic battles but yes...i can find another one if you rather to edit that...have you any other issue with the other titles or not?

Apr 26, 2023 11:53 PM

#29

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Jul 2018

561867

Dragon Ball, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh and Full Metal Alchemist are shonen not shojo...like obviously.

Apr 26, 2023 11:58 PM

#30

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Jul 2018

561867

And judging the series on the scan quality isnt really fair i think because well...technically in a ideal world where we all would have money for everything interesting us we wouldnt read it in scan but in a more legal way and in Japan they mostly do so therefore well...no judging especially as I'm guilty of that one too like almost every body here but i dont think judging a whole editorial category complaining of the bad quality of their pirating is really fair to the authors intentions.

Apr 27, 2023 12:29 AM

#31

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Jul 2018

561867

Many people do read on every such demographic and dont end up with same conclusion myself included, loving for an example Ikigami, Angel Sanctuary and Death Note is quite possible i'm the living proof of that. On that example Angel Sanctuary is pretty complex a story full of surprises, with around 20 characters with different motives and major roles in key part of the plot and a lot of world building...if anything its more often criticized more fairly to be so complex its confusing that simple and many other shojo also are...i can understand cringy as judging this peculiar story but saying its simple would obviously be bad faith and lot of other shojo as complex stories. Now cringy is harder to debunk because what its mean to each people vary so what is stuff you find cringy coming up too often in shojo stories for your tastes? If i dont know what it is more precisely its hard giving you examples of shojo that wouldnt feel cringe to you.

Apr 27, 2023 12:47 AM

#32

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Jul 2018

561867

Short_Circut said:

I think you have a fair point, thanks for honest opinion, that said from what i've heard from shojo fans and editors the genre is way more varied in Japan and western edition of manga is partly guilty of shojo bad rep for being very disinterested in their shojo and so only take the marketable cliche ones for too many for a example in my country France there is many shojo manga editors but only one try to get the quality ones and have a good catalogue when others just take the last big commercial sucess not matter how bad it is…its kind of insulting to young girls at this stade. That's say…on a side note…i wonder why so many people are allergic to romance genre but yeah that's a different topic that is more general and not shojo nor even manga/anime only so i wont talk about that too much for fear of getting out of topic fast but i'm just puzzled by how many can't stand it…i'm not even really a big fan of romance/romantic but i'm more a "anything goes" kind of girl pretty easy with a variety of plot along as the story get me in and the number of people who looks scared like phobics seeing a spider when they get a romance rec get me curious of why a bit. I can get that many romances have a same formula shojo or elsewhere many find boring but every genre have its tired trope coming too often that get lot of shows in it boring…and most people not liking polar for an exemple dont seem to fear it completely. They dont spit on people who likes polar and hate it without trying it for the most part they just dont care. I wonder why so many (not all thanksfully) people who dont like shojo and/or romance hate it/are scared by it i dont know which it is so much instead of just live and let live that's all.

As for shojo more precisely yes lots look similar…but that's true in every demographic their lot of average titles, a fair amount of awful ones (yeah honest some titles i've never tried i get in because of recommandations did burn my eyes with how bad, full of tropes and sexist they were but its not a shojo specific issue) and only a few good ones…i tend to believe the 99% of everything is shit rule to be honest but getting a too pessimistic view of something get you miss the 1% you can love in it that what i wanted to came across.

Apr 27, 2023 5:17 AM

#33

MetalPower26

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Mar 2021

Sylpheline said:
but i dont think judging a whole editorial category complaining of the bad quality of their pirating is really fair to the authors intentions.

Yeah I guess that's true. But, they don't have that much shoujo in bookstores (and when there are any, they're mostly ongoing mangas). Which is a shame to be honest.

Apr 27, 2023 6:20 AM

#34

its_yeeshu_69

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Oct 2022

Short_Circut said:

There are many Shounen that are just incomparable to any shounen (Eg- One Piece , Jojo , Fullmetal , CSM , HxH , AoT, Gintama Etc) . So you can't say shoujo are better than shounen.

Apr 27, 2023 6:29 AM

#35

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561867

I've never said that shojo are better than shonen just that overall shounen and seinen seems judged more fairly than shojo and i've wondered why. Thats the whole reason for this topic.

Apr 27, 2023 6:41 AM

#36

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Jul 2018

561867

MetalPower26 said:

Sylpheline said:
but i dont think judging a whole editorial category complaining of the bad quality of their pirating is really fair to the authors intentions.

Yeah I guess that's true. But, they don't have that much shoujo in bookstores (and when there are any, they're mostly ongoing mangas). Which is a shame to be honest.

Yes that's the kind of thing that get me to do this topic...its a shame indeed. And i wonder how to change that, this being said at least here because that's probably change from a country to another and as France is the second with most manga outside Japan we might be luckier than elsewhere...here shojo in manga specialized bookstores are having a fair place to be honest but in the generalist bookstore its a catastrophe with the shojo titles whereas most popular shonen/seinen are well promoted the shojo are almost hidden...in Germany and Italy they have less shojo but general bookstores do get them a fair place just as manga specialized bookstore do. The shojo place in bookstores being more a country specific issue than a general issue of the western world with shojo that said...edition problems of editors choosing shojo by economic success instead of quality then getting us way too often the most cliche titles instead of the most quality ones seems more widespread a issue in the western world with way too many shojo titles of quality which would worth travel the world way better not travelling the sea and kept far away to non japanese speaker sadly that said.

Apr 27, 2023 7:25 AM

#37

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Feb 2016

14960

Sylpheline said:
most episodes even in the original are about the card and their capture in a almost Pokemon style like of episode construction from what i remember of my childhood so i admit i never considered it that much more romantic than Pokemon

That was true only for the first 46 episodes. The story continues for another 24 episodes after she finishes capturing cards.

Sylpheline said:
Dragon Ball, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh and Full Metal Alchemist are shonen not shojo...like obviously.

I had hoped my sarcasm would be obvious too.

Sylpheline said:
i wonder why so many people are allergic to romance genre

It's because men and women look for different things in romance.

その目だれの目？

Apr 27, 2023 8:21 AM

#38

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Jul 2018

561867

Lucifrost said:

That was true only for the first 46 episodes. The story continues for another 24 episodes after she finishes capturing cards.

Sylpheline said:
Dragon Ball, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh and Full Metal Alchemist are shonen not shojo...like obviously.

I had hoped my sarcasm would be obvious too.

Sylpheline said:
i wonder why so many people are allergic to romance genre

It's because men and women look for different things in romance.

Being both neurodivergent and not speaking my native langage hear didnt help me catch the joke but lol now that i get it.

Yes i know they are episodes after she got all the cards but yeah they didnt impacted my memory as much as yes after its get way more boring indeed from what i remember of it.

Not all the people i know who are allergic to romance are guys even if yes most are. I'm always a bit wary on giving an explanation of something based on gender because it get to stereotypes fast in my experiences especially as some guys do like romance even if not most but what do you mean by that more precisely what do you think it is that most guys seek in real life romance that is absent from most fictional ones boring them? I'm just curious here.

Apr 27, 2023 9:09 AM

#39

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Feb 2016

14960

Sylpheline said:
some guys do like romance even if not most but what do you mean by that more precisely what do you think it is that most guys seek in real life romance that is absent from most fictional ones boring them? I'm just curious here.

What I meant is that a romance story for boys such as Nisekoi or White Album is very different from a girl romance such as Twilight or 50 Shades. Somebody who likes one kind will probably dislike the other kind. As for those people who claim to dislike every kind of romance, my theory is that they've never seen a romance for boys. They think all romance is for girls because that is the only kind American and English authors ever write.

その目だれの目？

Apr 27, 2023 10:20 AM

#40

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Jul 2018

561867

If Nisekoi and White Album the ones you think of are the romantic anime harem and the romantic eroge i found searching those titles i dont know them but from the wikipedia plot they seem not so different from a more modern Love Hina and to have a plot that mostly wouldnt be weird as a shojo one only differentiated from it by one having a aspect of eroticism about said girls and the other one being about a random guy who lots of beautiful cute anime girls love for no discernable reason. Reverse harem of random girl courtshiped for no real reason by lots of beautiful anime guys and erotic shojo do exists…but yeah of course in them its the hot bishonen who got all the attention. I mean sure if most guys like romance only for the hot girls…they would be bored with most shojo…even the ones with yuri that i didnt count because most people considers yuri like josei and yaoi to be their own niche more than a shojo subgenre like Utena draw the fem girls like Anthy in it as shojo princess and the tomboy girls in it like Utena as kind of like a female bishonen so i guess that wouldnt be attractive to most guys. That said i've meet many guys who loved Utena and other romances so i guess this minority guys dont like the romance genre only for getting dreamy or hot at it and really enjoy such plots in themselves. Romeo and Juliet, Pride and Prejudice, Dangerous Liaisons if we go to the more hot ones easily better done than 50 shades…they probably wouldnt be your tastes but at least you could quote western romance with more literary quality than like the two worst ones that were a marketing success likely that's not fair to the genre lol…that being said yeah romance targeted to guys with hot girls in it like in japanese harem anime or eroge i dont remember ever seen such things in western media. Maybe it exists somewhere that i dont know of but its definitively not meanstream stuff here. I dont know why.

Apr 27, 2023 5:49 PM

#41

ᴛʜʀᴇᴀᴅ★ʀᴇᴀᴘᴇʀ

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Dec 2018

8637

its_yeeshu_69 said:
There are many Shounen that are just incomparable to any shounen (Eg- One Piece , Jojo , Fullmetal , CSM , HxH , AoT, Gintama Etc) . So you can't say shoujo are better than shounen.

Interesting how you avoided my question. Seriously, did you read ANY shoujo manga before making any of your absolutist posts against them?

I just wanted to ask for your honest thoughts on how you reached the conclusion that you made and what manga you read gave you that impression. I would even understand if you said something like shoujo spamming chibis and wall slam and other kinds of tropes. But you're not even bothering to list any examples to back up your claim. No one in this thread was really arguing that shoujo was better than shounen or not, the topic was more that why doesn't the former get noticed more. I've read plenty enough of titles from either demographic to say that both have value.

Apr 27, 2023 11:47 PM

#42

Frosteek

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May 2020

576

So, did @its_yeeshu_69 ever end up saying what shoujo manga he's read?

Apr 28, 2023 1:31 AM

#43

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Jul 2018

561867

Sadly no he didnt came back to say wether he ever read a shojo or not and which one or ones he disliked if he did and why he didnt liked it or them so we dont know. Even if he judged shojo as bad without trying any i would be curious of why then because well...its the reaction i was sadenned and puzzled by in the first place by many shojo naysayer so if he came to explain what in shojo is so repulsive to him he cant get past their cover that would indeed be relevant to this topic. And yes i do love some shonen and seinen titles also and i cant care less about doing a competition on which marketing target category have the better manga titles in it...i just wonder why almost every body judge their shonen and seinen titles fairly by trying them and see if they like it or not like well you do with most manga usually but a sizable proportion of people hating on shojo and saying its trash didnt try any at all. That's unfair and get shojo underestimated. It do not mean shojo is superior to anything besides its own reputation. But their an obvious gap between their actual quality and what naysayers think they are and they are better than many think of them that's the topic point. But now if the topic titles is misundertood as "shojo is the better demographic"...i can understand why shonen and seinen fans would go defensive and say its bad and their favorite is better which then would end up fast in a meaningless battle of personal taste so how can i edit it to avoid such misunderstanding and get people to be more in topic?

Some people have valid points like not liking shojo drawing, or valid to most shojo but not all point like disliking girl targeted romance so being disintersted in most shojo even if yes shojo is richer than just that and have titles that go against the being a girl romance trend as some titles quoted above that they might get interested in even if they hate girly romance because they are not that, and that's ok to me...the only one who really get me upset are the one like he might be that hate on it on principle knowing nothing about it...that's the unfair judgement of shojo i like to see less so knowing why such people think and act that way about them would have be useful to understand if they can or not be open minded more to it and why. That's kind of the whole topic point indeed. Now thanks for all people who did participated. Its did help me see why shojo are underestimated by some who could like them if they get past some of their prejudice and why some fairly dont like them a bit more. Its seem more complicated than i thinked initially a topic with bookstores issues, editor issues, some real stuff in shojo repulsive to many but that is less widespread in them that they think, some old shojo image people cant get past back even if they evolved, some bad scan issues, not knowing enough of the talented manga drawers and scenarist that do shojo, and a complex relationship with misogyny as some people cant stand shojo or any girl thing media because they are biaised against any thing girly or even just girl targeted or its just boring to them and therefore avoid shojo and dislikes it but others at the same time hates shojo for being in itself full of sexist stereotypes too often about what girls are and might like and of a japanese take on femininity that might be at odds with what western women likes (that being said i heard a Japanese girl thinking shojo is disliked in the west because in her opinion the west in more woman hating than Japan which embrace girliness/femininity so that might have more to do with cultural difference in women lives as anything sexism/antisexist related)...did i forgot something or is it a ok enough sum up of why shojo are underestimated/disliked?

Apr 28, 2023 5:07 AM

#44

Usapz

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Apr 2022

499

its_yeeshu_69 said:

Short_Circut said:

There are many Shounen that are just incomparable to any shounen (Eg- One Piece , Jojo , Fullmetal , CSM , HxH , AoT, Gintama Etc) . So you can't say shoujo are better than shounen.

Funny way to avoid the question.

“I won’t rely on anyone anymore. I don’t care if no one understands.” – Homura Akemi

Apr 28, 2023 5:03 PM

#45

malvarez1

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Aug 2010

3095

A lot of people have stereotypes in their head regarding Shojo manga, and don't realize that there is a great variety of them.

Bum Bum Dum Dum

Apr 29, 2023 12:24 AM

#46