The Two brothers episode paradox (Spoilers for the episode)

guedess10 said:
What I interpreted when I first read this was that everything is already written. This means that both the past and the future happens at the same time. In order for the past to happen, the future had to happen and viceversa. Its like a time-loop, everything happens at the same time.

guedess10 said:
What I interpreted when I first read this was that everything is already written. This means that both the past and the future happens at the same time. In order for the past to happen, the future had to happen and viceversa. Its like a time-loop, everything happens at the same time.

RandomPerson9348 said:

It's a plot device called a "causal loop". Not used as much as regular time travel, but it exists. Essentially, the future happens because of the past, and the past happens because of the future.

A good example is this, from Doctor Who -
You love Beethoven, so you take his TARDIS and go back to the past to meet him. But when you get there, you find that nobody knows Beethoven. You refuse to believe this, and thus, publish the music you have saved, as Beethoven. Now, you are Beethoven, and you inspired yourself in the future to come back.

It is a sort of paradox, but it manages to contain and solve itself in a loop, so we don't really call it a paradox, but that other name.

RandomPerson9348 said:

Just thought I'd quote you since you have asked the other dude. I posted a reply above this for reference. The plot doesn't mention this explicitly, but it is a widely accepted and used Plot Device. Kind of like how the plot doesn't tell you that it is "subversive" or "morally ambiguous", it's just what it's called.

RandomPerson9348 said:

You don't need to watch it. It's just a cold open where the Doctor tells this to you. It's a normal example which requires no previous knowledge of the show. Just an example.

But just for clarification, the TARDIS is the doctor's time machine, and Beethoven, is of course, Beethoven.

RandomPerson9348 said:

It's a plot device called a "causal loop". Not used as much as regular time travel, but it exists. Essentially, the future happens because of the past, and the past happens because of the future.

A good example is this, from Doctor Who -
You love Beethoven, so you take his TARDIS and go back to the past to meet him. But when you get there, you find that nobody knows Beethoven. You refuse to believe this, and thus, publish the music you have saved, as Beethoven. Now, you are Beethoven, and you inspired yourself in the future to come back.

It is a sort of paradox, but it manages to contain and solve itself in a loop, so we don't really call it a paradox, but that other name.

aktiwkunn said:
Yes, that was a mistake on writer's part.

To anyone reading this, i have a question.

Why didn't Grisha save his wife if he knew what was about to happen ? He could've asked them to move to the inner walls using his connections as a doctor

certifiedbinger said:

Didn't Grisha explicitly say he wasn't aware of Carla's safety?
Eren just sent him a vision of the walls being compromised by the Colossal, without any context as to when.
Grisha didn't know the walls were coming down on that very day.

aktiwkunn said:

I know that much.
But if you know there's a possibility of something like that happening, it's the bare minimum you could've done to ensure their safety or am I wrong?

RandomPerson9348 said:

Here you go. Editing on phones is a bit hard. Essentially used the same diagram and just changed the text.

In a Causal Loop, there is no progenitor of events. You will never know who made Beethoven's Music in the first place, and you will never know which Eren first went to Paths. Past, Present and Future are all dependant on each other.






I don't know any other anime which uses this, or at least I haven't watched any. The only thing I can recommend is googling "causal loop" for more information. There is no explicit "proof" that they used this. It is just what the plot device is called. Eren never says "we are in a dark fantasy". It's just what it is.

Arouna_Tempest said:
Ok in this episode it was explained to us how eren got his founding titan from grisha by litteraly asking him to murder the reiss. Even at the end of the episode grisha Screams "i did as you asked, eren". And in other to do this he had to enter the paths meaning everything till that point was premedited by eren right.
Now my question is how did eren had the founding originally? since it was clearly showed that grisha never intended to kill anybody. But eren made him do it. But to do this eren already had the founding titan. Meaning grisha already killed the reiss and gave it to him. But again if eren didn't forced grisha to do that, grisha would've just walked out not killing anybody. I know it's confusing But i hope you'll understand my question. Isn't this suppose to be a paradox ?
Is this a plot hole or did i missed something ??

Arouna_Tempest said:
Ok in this episode it was explained to us how eren got his founding titan from grisha by litteraly asking him to murder the reiss. Even at the end of the episode grisha Screams "i did as you asked, eren". And in other to do this he had to enter the paths meaning everything till that point was premedited by eren right.
Now my question is how did eren had the founding originally? since it was clearly showed that grisha never intended to kill anybody. But eren made him do it. But to do this eren already had the founding titan. Meaning grisha already killed the reiss and gave it to him. But again if eren didn't forced grisha to do that, grisha would've just walked out not killing anybody. I know it's confusing But i hope you'll understand my question. Isn't this suppose to be a paradox ?
Is this a plot hole or did i missed something ??

RandomPerson9348 said:


When the Owl talks about history repeating itself, I think he means the history of Marley vs. Eldia which has been going on for a long time. The Attack Titan cannot see memories voluntarily. They just come and they see them.

And if he is indeed talking about the future, then it's just his hope of changing the future and something which will not actually come true. If I am missing something, please let me know. I did not completely understand.

Also, the future being pre determined has nothing to do with the causal loop. Even if it is fluid, Eren will still create a causal loop because it's not determinism which affects the loop, but just dependency. A causal loop can be broken, but a determined future cannot be changed.

ktg said:

It has. Casual loop is a paradox. It's not an answer to the question. You just named the problem (a plothole). The only way to solve this paradox is to acknowledge the future is pre-determined.

Owl obviously talked about the ongoing conflict, but to stop it, you need to see at least 2 futures. The first one is where the conflict is still ongoing and the other one where the conflict stopped.
Based on this 2 futures, Owl could give advice to Grisha. If he had saw the "true" future, he would have had to say anything, because based on his knowledge the conflict would have stopped.

This is why it's a plot hole.
And btw, there are detailed explanation why we talk about fixed timeline in this case:
https://imgur.com/t3Lnjsm
But noone can explain Owl's advice, because it doesn't make any sense with this power.

Arouna_Tempest said:
Ok in this episode it was explained to us how eren got his founding titan from grisha by litteraly asking him to murder the reiss. Even at the end of the episode grisha Screams "i did as you asked, eren". And in other to do this he had to enter the paths meaning everything till that point was premedited by eren right.
Now my question is how did eren had the founding originally? since it was clearly showed that grisha never intended to kill anybody. But eren made him do it. But to do this eren already had the founding titan. Meaning grisha already killed the reiss and gave it to him. But again if eren didn't forced grisha to do that, grisha would've just walked out not killing anybody. I know it's confusing But i hope you'll understand my question. Isn't this suppose to be a paradox ?
Is this a plot hole or did i missed something ??

MeVike said:

Yes its told to us in the last chapter of the manga. So unless you want to get spoiled even more, you shouldn’t really ask for answers that are yet to be revealed.

MeVike said:

It’s revealed in the end that in paths, the future past and present happen at the same time. There’s no “what came first and next, or what happened” in paths Future Eren present Eren and past Eren exist at the same time. Founding Titan Eren exists at the same time as 10yo Eren who isn’t even a titan. All these events happen at the same time and they interchange with each other. Future Eren sends memories to Grisha to help young Eren. Young Eren makes future Eren’s plan go in fruition. It’s not a simple, “if you kill young Eren, the future will change”. The future is already determined because it’s already happened in paths. And the one who controls paths can control whatever happens there. There’s no starting point for Eren. It’s simply 3 lines representing 3 different points in time. Those three lines stretch out and interchange with each other, they connect with each other and they give meaning to each other. Since the future is predetermined. Those 3 timelines will always happen no matter what, and how they connect is what see in the series (their journey). If you really want a starting point, I’d say it’s when Ymir freed those pigs. That’s when all started. Eren’s story however, has no start and no end. In that sense, it is kind of a loop. You need to understand something. There’s no original Eren. There’s Eren at 2/3 points in time. Kid Eren, scout Eren and genocial Eren. No one came first. They all were created at the same time. Present Eren didn’t come before future Eren and Kid Eren didn’t come before present Eren. The paths is the answer to it all. And the one who controls paths... well, you can basically call it god.

Arouna_Tempest said:

Said like that this makes a lot more sense.. but since none of that was explicitly said in the plot upto this point..

it just seemed like nonsense to me

MeVike said:


It was never said in the anime before. Some character explains it in one sentence at the end of the manga. My answer is just a detailed explanation of what was said in the end, so just patiently wait for it.

Arouna_Tempest said:

Yeah i see so what's the conclusion here ? Plot hole or not?

RandomPerson9348 said:

I don't say that the determined timeline does not exist. I agree that the entire future is pre-determined. As I said, I was a bit confused at first. I was talking about the causal loop as a concept in general, and not related to AoT.

However, for the Owl thing, I re-read Chapter 88 and 89 just now, and to me it just seems like wishful thinking? He mentions in 88 that they need to take the Founding Titan, and if they don't, Marley will. If Marley gets its, Eldian genocide blah blah. So they need to save the people inside the walls, who have been brainwashed.

Grisha asks him that "...all my memories from before I become a Titan will disappear anyway, won't they?", And Owl replies, "Not necessarily, someone may see them later.". This is followed by the "make a family and love someone to make sure we don't repeat our history."

To me, it looks like he is saying, "You will forget the truth of the Eldian kingdom, so here's this photo to trigger yourself to remember. Love someone and pass on the knowledge you have, so that even if you fail, the truth gets inside the Walls and we eventually succeed".

Once more, I'm more than glad to be corrected if I missed anything. But I did not find anything in the scene that makes it look like the Owl is giving him that particular advice based on some meticulous plan. It honestly just seems like he is saying the things that might be the best for the continuation of their general plan.

HyperL said:
It's not a plot hole just because the original timeline was never shown. In fact, that timeline is not relevant to the overall narrative.

Arouna_Tempest said:

Wait and what's this original timeline you're talking about ??
Original timeline is eren getting FT from grisha right ?? I don't get your point

ktg said:

If you ask me, it is.
But I'm still arguing and so who knows.



I think it's more than wishful thinking.
After the start a family, Grisha said he has one. But Owl talked about loving inside the wall everybody, because that's the only way.
Grisha: "Besides, the ones that becomes titans lost all their older memories"
Owl: "That's not the case. Your wife... your sons... and the people of the town. Love everybody within the walls. Ifyou can't do that, everything will happen again. The same story. With the same mistakes. Again and again. Mikasa and Armin... If you want to save them all... fulfill your mission."

It sounds so much more than wishful thinking. Especially when he said it's gonna happen "again and again". Even the last sentence "fulfill your mission" sounds like he knows something.
(Or more like he should know something from a different timeline.)

And actually when Grisha asked "What are you talking about?", he replied with "I don't know. Who is the owner of this memory"
So, he clearly stated that it's not his own idea.

Nobody5464 said:


The owl is telling grisha to have a family because he’s being manipulated by future eren to cause erens birth. He’s saying whatever he needs to say to convince grisha to have a family. Because eren has to be born since future eren exists. The owl has never seen an alternate timeline. Their is one timeline that the owl in no way knows everything about. Your assuming the owl knows anything to be saying that but he’s only saying it because he has to.

RandomPerson9348 said:

"Whose memories are these?" might be a general statement. As Eren says in the final chapter . This seems to be what's affecting the Owl here.

"Again and again" could mean that if they don't get the Founding Titan and the Attack Titan is not passed on, they might lose their chance forever and continue the cycle of hatred and war.

But I also see how it can be read in a different manner. It also seems like we read different translations, and more often than not, with plots like these, meanings can get blurred in the translations. I know a bit of Japanese, so I am going to go see the original Japanese versions and get back to you!

ktg said:

Which would make sense, if Eren was aware of this information, but he wasn't.
As we saw, he didn't plan in the first place to manipulate Grisha in the underground chapel. He did it because he saw that Grisha was hesitated.
And the other problem with this version is manipulating his father would be easier. So choosing Owl is something that still doesn't make sense.

And btw, Grisha hesitated because of this advice. If he hadn't got the advice love everybody, he would more likely be able to kill to get the founding titan. He got attached to the people, he enjoyed his life and almost forgot his mission.
So this advice from Owl is more like something that tries to block Eren's ambitions.


I think you misunderstood my interpretation. What I'm saying is that with your interpretation is still a problem.
It doesn't matter what he meant by the "again and again", because the only way to know what's going to happen and why is to know the difference between this 2 futures.

So, let's say he was saying having a family would break the hatred in your interpretation. My problem is, how did he know that the HAVING A FAMILY would break it and, for example, eating pretzel wouldn't break it.
To know the exact cause you need to see 2 futures and compare the differences.

HyperL said:


I mean the timeline that first started the causal loop, before the course of events became paradoxical.

Arouna_Tempest said:

But there's only one timeline in SNK so i still don't get your point 🤷🏽‍♂️

Catalano said:
the bigger plot hole is why did griescha gave eren the founder after acting so sad towards zeke and basically saying to him "please stop eren!". But I guess we can shove that off as a griescha was just weak and had a moment of humanity in him. he gave eren the founder and attack with the intention of killing all the animals outside Paradis and liberating the true eldians

Nobody5464 said:


One eren knew everything from the moment he touched historia last season. He knew he convinced his father. Two your assuming eren manipulated the owl “before” he manipulated his father but eren is outside time right now. He can manipulate the owl further in the past “after” manipulating his father when we saw him. Three eren needs to cause his own birth period. Telling his father to love someone through the owl is how he causes his birth. Their is no alternate future. Time and destiney in attack on Titan is fixed. Everything that ever happened or will happen always happened and always will happen nobody can change anything. The owl was not trying to change anything by giving grisha that advice he was leading to erens birth as it was destined to happen.