[MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD] As much as I adore and respect Fruba's author, the way she handled the Kyoko & Katsuya relationship made me very disappointed for a reason that is important to bring up

kanesans said:
this aspect is truly my one gripe with the series

raifuresu said:

But nowadays (and I'm changing to nowadays bc the movie will be released in 2022) I wouldn't think so. I I mean, teens are smarter than ever, the access to technology and knowledge is easier than ever, so I believe most teenage girls would understand that such relationship wouldn't work out in real life. That only because an anime showed it as a love story, it doesn't mean it could become real.

Rojaseb said:

You know I was thinking a lot about this point too as I tried to reach a conclusion on this matter. And I think you might be interested in this argument.

Let's say they adapt the relationship as it is, regardless of whether it will negatively influence kids or not. What is the point? Is it really entertaining to watch it? Since people like Katsuya don't exist in the real world and they're all predators, what's the purpose of fantasizing with a guy like Katsuya? Is it interesting to see a girl and an adult fall in love? Is it interesting that Katsuya gets a 15yo girl pregnant? What exactly is the appeal of this piece of fiction that is depicting several crimes? It's forbidden love for a reason - it's illegal and unhealthy.

Do you happen to know Dexter? The series about the serial killer that kills killers. Well, for me the romance between Kyoko and Katsuya would be like Dexter killing good, normal people, for no particular reason other than the fact that he's a psychopath. Just him killing people for 8 seasons. What would be the point of watching fiction about a hideous crime with no social commentary on it?

TheOneOfSeven said:
And why I am not bothered by the age-gap? It is because my father is 18 and a half years older than my step-mother, I am not too bothered by it now.

TheOneOfSeven said:
That's why I am worried over the fact it's going to be adapted in this era, this modern year, due to how sensitive many people are. Maybe it should've been left in the manga because I can imagine Twitter EXPLODING once this air.

TheOneOfSeven said:
I mean, I myself aren't that bothered by the age-gap, it's just when and how they met, if she was 20 and he was 28 or if they were the typical highschool crush students, then it would've been better.

...

And why I am not bothered by the age-gap? It is because my father is 18 and a half years older than my step-mother, I am not too bothered by it now.

dbulg1 said:


It's not the age gap itself that's the issue, it's their ages when they get together that's the problem. Nobody would say "all 8-year age gaps are bad."

A 23-year old getting a 15-year old pregnant, when there's also a teacher-student dynamic between them, is just wrong. Period. Full stop. Considering how unnecessary that aspect of their relationship is to the story, I hope they're able to make some changes to it.

Rojaseb said:


This is such a bad take. It's not about being "sensitive" is about the new generations not wanting to promote stories, or behavior, or celebrities or politicians - you name it - that contribute to abuse and misery in the world. It's not being "sensitive" if people drag this 2022 adaptation to the ground if it stays true to the manga because the people dragging it simply wouldn't want to promote the behavior depicted in it.

Katsuya's relationship with Kyoko was sexual - it was rape. No one ever brings this up in the story. The rape is glamorized.

So it's not a matter of sensitivity, is a matter of having much more decency than older generations.

People from 2000 years ago would call you sensitive if you didn't want to go watch gladiators murder each other for entertainment.

TraX_LTU said:

sorry if this is a sensitive topic for you, but out of curiosity what's the gap between your father's and real mother's age?

Rojaseb said:
@raifuresu

But Hannibal is a horrible person, a wanted criminal, and the story is about catching him. Hannibal doesn't "need" to make social commentary because the protagonist is the bad guy, and considered bad by every character in the story that knows what he does.

The intentions of my comparison were to bring up the fact that Katsuya and Kyoko's relationship is NOT portrayed as bad, even though it is very, very illegal, and could've potentially ruined Kyoko's life. You say people don't need a reason to fantasize about things and teenagers can fantasize about whatever they want, but then let's switch to the teenagers that think Ted Bundy was hot and cool. Is that something we want teengers to fantasize about? Katsuya wasn't portrayed as a groomer nor an abuser nor a criminal but he was all of these, the author simply didn't give attention to it because it would've ruined the fantasy.

TheOneOfSeven said:
I am sorry, but I am genuinely curious, where was the rape in the story? It's not exactly mentioned and I am overly worried people will take a different take on the characters. Maybe things will change in the upcoming OVA, like who knows?

However, it is very vital for Tohru's character in general, I don't fancy the relationship myself nor do I fancy over how they met, I'll just watch it to understand a bit more of the parents and Tohru herself.

raifuresu said:


I think he meant statutory rape. Katsuya didn't force Kyoko into sex, but because of the age gap, in real life it would be considered statutory rape regardless.

DarkCarnage0 said:
Honestly I find it really disturbing tbh. How much ever of an amazing person Katsuya is, I can’t accept a 15 year old getting married to a 28 year old man. Moreover, I am so so so surprised they planned to adapt this as an animation. I would have been a million times happier if they planned to adapt fruit basket another. But this is just a…. No.

DarkCarnage0 said:
Honestly I find it really disturbing tbh. How much ever of an amazing person Katsuya is, I can’t accept a 15 year old getting married to a 28 year old man. Moreover, I am so so so surprised they planned to adapt this as an animation. I would have been a million times happier if they planned to adapt fruit basket another. But this is just a…. No.

Mika-taicho said:
Honestly i dont know why people get soooo hung up on entertainment having some sort of obligation to present x and y in a certain way because "lets think about the kids". Its such a tiring argument mostly used by religious or purist groups that i cant take it seriously anymore. It can be a tricky topic, I agree, there are some valid cases, but in the end its up to the parents to teach their children this stuff and monitor what minors do. I personally dont agree that this sort of responsibility should be on the entertainment. The media CAN have some sort of influence the audience but it DOES NOT mean it WILL. its a hypothetical thing and with that logic we could go endlessly - dont drive because you can end up in an accident, dont take this cig bc u can get addicted etc. Things are allowed to be fantasies and exist there without having some sort of social commentary attached to it. If there can never be problematic content because children might see it then we will never be able to create anything ever.

Rojaseb said:
Kureno for example, could've been the same age as Akito or Ritsu - there was no point whatsoever in making him so old, he was never even friends with the Shigure gang.

Mika-taicho said:
Honestly i dont know why people get soooo hung up on entertainment having some sort of obligation to present x and y in a certain way because "lets think about the kids". Its such a tiring argument mostly used by religious or purist groups that i cant take it seriously anymore. It can be a tricky topic, I agree, there are some valid cases, but in the end its up to the parents to teach their children this stuff and monitor what minors do. I personally dont agree that this sort of responsibility should be on the entertainment. The media CAN have some sort of influence the audience but it DOES NOT mean it WILL. its a hypothetical thing and with that logic we could go endlessly - dont drive because you can end up in an accident, dont take this cig bc u can get addicted etc. Things are allowed to be fantasies and exist there without having some sort of social commentary attached to it. If there can never be problematic content because children might see it then we will never be able to create anything ever.

This case is quite interesting to me because when I was a teen i consumed a lot of media with teacher/student relationships since that was my fantasy (i still like it to this day bc its my FANTASY). And yet, thanks to my parents' teachings, I was aware of the dangers of it in real life. I'm not saying that my case is like everyone else but making generalizations that there are so many young, naive teenagers is not a good thing either.

KazuKotomine said:
yeah i agree that it isn't a good idea to promote age gap relationships as if they're perfectly normal and have no faults but people should be taught beforehand the dangers these situations have, people are relying too much on entertainment to teach kids whats right these days instead of actually doing it themselves which is unfortunate for a series like this which shows a lot of depths in different real life issues but people go over and complain about one they should already be taught about

lapau said:
I really understand agree of much of the points and where do those come from. But one could'nt bring their beliefs and norms to the other without understanding the other's norm and have their own judgement. I know it kinda fucked up, even in norm that I believe in. But still, such judgemental just throws me off.

I believe, according to Japanese law, it's not fully illegal of such relations. Eventhough any adolescent-adult relations are forbidden by law and counts as "indecent act", but it could be negated by marriage, engagement, or other "socially accepted kind of relationship". so than the adult wouldn't be seen as "taking advantage of immaturity."

Context matter.

quercifolia said:

This.

Rojaseb said:


Not "this". It IS illegal and @lapau is simply wrong with their "I believe it's no fully illegal" comment. Yes it is illegal, you're free to read about but I didn't make this post to give a ted talk about Japanese laws on consent. Moreover, for the things they listed such as "marriage," or actually getting yourself involved in any form with a person under 20 in Japan, you require explicit parental consent, which this relationship very clearly did not have.

So everything that you can do wrong in a relationship like this, was done wrong here, and it was written for the literal kids that read Hana to Yume, and the author made money out of it.

A terrible stain on Fruits Basket that should've been kept in the drafts or as a doujin if the author wanted to publish it so much.

quercifolia said:
This is fictional. It's not reality.

If you think anime or manga is real life you got more issues than the actual manga

Rojaseb said:


Not "this". It IS illegal and @lapau is simply wrong with their "I believe it's no fully illegal" comment. Yes it is illegal, you're free to read about but I didn't make this post to give a ted talk about Japanese laws on consent. Moreover, for the things they listed such as "marriage," or actually getting yourself involved in any form with a person under 20 in Japan, you require explicit parental consent, which this relationship very clearly did not have.

So everything that you can do wrong in a relationship like this, was done wrong here, and it was written for the literal kids that read Hana to Yume, and the author made money out of it.

A terrible stain on Fruits Basket that should've been kept in the drafts or as a doujin if the author wanted to publish it so much.

lapau said:
But simply being judgemental without understading what values do the writer have, or maybe the values of people in the 90s Japan probably had. For me, it doesn't feel right.

lov3lymj said:
Japan doesn't seem to have an issue otherwise they wouldn't produce it, so why should we?

Rojaseb said:
Kyoko was a 14 years old girl and Katsuya a 22 years old guy working for Kyoko's school, as a teacher's assistant. That's the general description of their relationship - it sounds bad straight away, and it's made worse by the fact that Katsuya gets Kyoko pregnant at around 15-16. To top it all off, Kyoko's domestic situation was deplorable and violent, and the reason why she got herself involved in criminal gangs. Katsuya knew all this.

But none of this is the problem that I'm talking about. No, the relationship doesn't get worse - the problem is Katsuya is an actual saint. Katsuya made Kyoko's life better, he emotionally supported her out of an impossible situation, and made her feel loved in a sincere and beautiful way. There was nothing wrong with their actual relationship. This is disturbing. It doesn't play out like that in real life. I'm 24, and I can guarantee you guys around my age NEVER go after 14 years old girls with pure intentions. The guys that do this are predatory, rotten and wholly trying to take advantage of girls, either to groom them or to rape them (because let's not forget that minors can't give consent to sexual relationships with adults).

So here's where I've seen the argument, "It's just fiction." Hmm. For you maybe, a fellow adult reading this story and being able to easily get past the weirdness in favor of the otherwise normal relationship.

But Fruba was published in the manga magazine Hana to Yume, read majorly by females (95%), most of which are minors (66%). To begin with, in Japan minors cannot freely give consent to sexual relationships with adults until they are 20 years old. When the Kyoko backstory dropped, Fruba was mainstream both in Japan and outside of it, becoming one of the first manga to accomplish something like that. Natsuki Takaya is an author that very consistently utilized her Hana to Yume platform for more than entertainment - Fruba portrays child abuse, domestic violence and the loss of parents in very realistic ways. Her storytelling always aimed to convey the message that these situation can be overcame, and showed us how using equally realistic characters.

So I think the author betrayed this integrity during the Katsuya & Kyoko relationship. She showed her mostly female teenage audience a completely inappropriate relationship, and glorified it. She never showed the cons of this type of relationship. Kyoko only second-guesses Katsuya's intentions once for a joke. We never get to hear what's even going through Katsuya's mind. The author wrote the age gap, then ignored the meaning of it. And I believe real Japanese girls the same age as Kyoko, who idolized Fruba and the author, wouldn't react as "This is obviously bad, this is just fiction, let's just ignore the age gap". Natsuki Takaya had a fantastic reputation and following, so it's perfectly possible that her younger readers could've been mislead by her to think that adults who come on to them, can have beautiful and pure romantic intentions... when this is never ever the case in real life. So let's not use the "it's fiction" argument because teenagers don't interpret literature that way, and they can by all means be negatively influenced by a story of an author they love, or mislead into having unrealistic expectations, then more easily fall for the manipulation of predatory men who act like saints as Katsuya did.

I agree on what others have suggested to bring Katsuya's age down and make him Kyoko's highscool senpai. That would make Kyoko 14 to 15 and Katsuya 16 to 17 (depending on their birthdays). I think fixing the ages would set a good precedent for new shoujo adaptations, since the label is plagued with bad age gaps. Fruba 2019 was a financial success that will most likely motivate other shoujo magazines to remake or reboot their incomplete anime, and Hana to Yume has the chance to set a good example here.

Rojaseb said:


"Japan doesn't have an issue with a story about a teacher getting a 15yo student pregnant so why should we care?"

Because it's disgusting, who gives a fuck what Japan doesn't care about, I'm calling it out either way and definitely won't be watching that shit

lov3lymj said:


Just a short correction: Kyoko was 16+ when she got pregnant, in Japan teens can legally marry at that age (with their parents approval) and Katsuya is an intern-teacher and a college student (if they wanted the could make him 18/19 whilst she is 16, she's in her last year after all and the agegaps are 14-16).

diorukia said:
so true bestie!!! people who still think “anime is fictional who cares what their relationship age gap is!” need to read this!! and you made other good points ofc, very educational!

Rojaseb said:


People who say "it's just fiction" are just trying to justify their creepy fetishes to not feel guilty about it because they know it's wrong to like that shit

Rojaseb said:


Wrong, you can only marry in Japan at that age with THE CONSENT OF THE PARENTS which Kyoko did not have. She dropped school and left her home.

You're also wrong about her age. She got pregnant as soon as they were together. She died around 30-32 years old when Tohru was 16. Meaning she got pregnant at 14-15.

blissfire said:


No, you're going too far. There are plenty of things I won't read or watch because for me, personally, they cross the line of what I'm comfortable with. But I will absolutely defend their right to exist, and for other people to consume that fiction without being called names. Because yes, it is "just fiction." And you don't need to feel guilty for liking that shit. Read it, watch it, don't read it, don't watch it. You can even start discussion topics about how it's an unrealistic portrayal of highschool romance and what effect that might have. But once you start saying, This art shouldn't exist because it's bad, or start publicly shaming people who watch/read that fiction, you're going too far. "Art doesn't have to make you comfortable." - Someone wise I can't remember

lov3lymj said:


No fr ppl be weird, it's known that ppl like certain inappropriate or problematic shit in fiction. Morality doesn't really exist there and some have certain fantasies (which is why shojos exist for example, to fulfill them). As long as they can diver from reality/fiction, it's fine. This is why fiction even exists. It doesn't make you superior for not liking them either. Student/teacher for example is a highly popular roleplay.

blissfire said:
I will absolutely defend their right to exist, and for other people to consume that fiction without being called names. Because yes, it is "just fiction." And you don't need to feel guilty for liking that shit. Read it, watch it, don't read it, don't watch it. You can even start discussion topics about how it's an unrealistic portrayal of highschool romance and what effect that might have. But once you start saying, This art shouldn't exist because it's bad, or start publicly shaming people who watch/read that fiction, you're going too far. "Art doesn't have to make you comfortable." - Someone wise I can't remember

lov3lymj said:



They gave up their parental rights (remember the document?), she could decide when to marry and yes, she must've been 16 otherwise it wouldn't have been possible for her to get married in Japan. That's the law. The minimum age is 16 for a teen and it's said that they got married first lol

epidemia78 said:
a shoujo manga portraying inappropriate relationships? Say it aint so!

Rojaseb said:


Who even cares about the marriage?? He knocked up a 14-15 yo girl that came from a violent home using his standing as a teacher to groom her and manipulate her all the while the author made it look c u t e.

The marriage is the last of my concerns, I didn't even mention it in my post. Using logic you would connect two and two and realize they got married early because he knocked up a little girl.

Rojaseb said:


Fiction doesn't exist to air out people's creepy fetishes, fetishists resort to fiction because they know some shit is wrong and illegal. It doesn't make you any less disgusting to vent it through fiction though <3