Anime is not escapism, modern objectivity is the real escapism!

Mar 1, 2019 2:01 AM

Offline

Oct 2008

8484

[quote=Safeanew message=57044834][quote=zieek message=57044811]

Safeanew said:

That is nice!
What would you say is special about anime for you compared to other mediums, what kind of experience do you get?

Not an appropriate responce I know but bear with me.

When I watch an anime I feel I relate more to the characters portrayed there than the actors in liveaction. Their lives seem closer to mine, their way of thinking is straightforward and naive.

The situations in films, tv series and books are supposed to make you feel as though you live through everything the mc's have expirianced, and are entertained by it. But the messages they offer, given to the viewer are not appealing, at least to me. Anime is to put it simply easier to take in, maybe I'm just more susceptible to watching drawings and being influanced by them than by liveaction.

Let's agree or agree to disagree, shall we.

Mar 1, 2019 2:03 AM

#252

Safeanew

Offline

Jul 2014

1151

Archenhaud said:
Fiction is escapism, especially in modern times. End of discussion for me tbh.

Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisoned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?... If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!

J.R.R. Tolkien said:
Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word,and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter.

While I can agree with this, is not my criticizing the word, actually making the same point as J.R.R. Tolkien but in the context of this forum?
Calling fiction escapist today means "the flight of the deserter" by those who use it.
The thing to add to "the escape of the prison" is in fiction finding "the will to change the prison", that is the political power of fiction, that is seeing reality through fiction.

Mar 1, 2019 2:07 AM

#253

KreatorX

Offline

May 2013

1737

Safeanew said:

Yeah you have showed that our opinions is the opposite of each.

you: me:

Anime is escapism to you. Calling anime escapist is escapist to me.

Clear divide between reality/fiction No clear divide between reality/fiction

Freedom is without worry/angst Freedom is with worry/angst

This what we disagree upon as I see it.

True, but you removed the bit about critical thinking. I can think deeply about anime just as any other person. I could write pages on the character analyses on Neon Genesis Evangelion or Re-Zero, for example.

What I am trying to get out of you is how do you establish the link between critical thinking (as this was the argument you brought forth initially) and enjoyment (which I brought up), because escapism can include both. Your arguments so far haven't touched upon the link.

Hope that was clear.

Truly a Divine Comedy

Mar 1, 2019 2:08 AM

#254

Safeanew

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Jul 2014

1151

Shiroanon said:

Safeanew said:

Shiroanon said:

Safeanew said:

Shiroanon said:

Safeanew said:

Shiroanon said:

Safeanew said:

Shiroanon said:
i get what you're trying to say, but escapism still exists regardless. the escapism, or however you want to refer to it as, doesn't necessarily have to have any deeper meaning to it

Well my point is that it is not enough to face reality, one have to also face fiction.
So the only true escapism is calling anime escapism.

like i said, i get what you're trying to say and i do agree to an extent. but are you really going to claim there was some deeper meaning to me watching sakura trick? cause i know i definitely didn't learn anything about the world around me from that anime, and i solely watched it for some simple-minded escapsim, nothing deeper than that. this can apply to some anime of course, like welcome to the nhk, which i didn't just watch for the sake of escapism and enjoying myself, but rather to possibly learn more about the world around me, which it succeeded in doing

Nice example, I love yuri but hate that series because it avoids everything!
It treats romance like it's the same thing as eating or something just a basic need! But it promotes the creation of more yuri anime that I like.
The meaning of that kind of series is the fact that I hate it!
Other people like it and I would like to question their tastes because I find that they maybe are avoiding really thinking about what it means and the implications it have on life.
For example what if people treat love like in sakura trick like it is just a basic need, what happens then?

you're elevating the meaning behind the series to such a high pedestal for no reason. there isn't really any deeper meaning behind it, it's just entertainment. it doesn't have to mean anything. all you're trying to do is find deeper meaning in something almost entirely meaningless

Am I really elevating it?
That is actually what I got from it.
That romance should not work like that.
One can treat as a simple entertainment showing girls kissing, but that in itself means something.
We don't enjoy just anything, we pick and choose between different things.
So just picking something that one enjoys is filled with meaning.

yea, and romance doesn't work like that, only in fiction. it's an idealized interpretation because it's a lot more simple and fun when idealized. it's just simple entertainment, nothing more than that. for me it was entertaining because i just like seeing cute girls doing cute things, i also enjoy yuri too
to be honest, i don't really get what point you're trying to get across here

It is a double point found in one point, and that is to start discussion about anime more freely!
The reasons you said are great!
I enjoyed sakura kiss too, I am a big fan of yuri, but I had my big complaints with it.
I am for discussing, there is no better way to discuss then say what one thinks, i am just promoting that idea.

and why is saying something is escapism not discussion? you keep on claiming people saying that prevents discussion, but why

Because people avoid sounding stupid to appear normal because of such words, they don't want to sound like a lunatic that takes seriously the fantasy worlds others call escapist, like the idea that fiction teaches us about real life is to cracy for many people.
I am just commenting on a way of speaking I have seen not only here but in life in general, people are too scared to really talk by the appeal to common sense.

Mar 1, 2019 2:09 AM

#255

iasuru

Offline

Oct 2011

2507

Safeanew said:

iasuru said:

Safeanew said:

iasuru said:

Safeanew said:

iasuru said:

Safeanew said:

iasuru said:

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Ringo_Elegant said:

Safeanew said:

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Safeanew said:

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Safeanew said:

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Safeanew said:

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Safeanew said:

Ringo_Elegant said:

Safeanew said:

Ringo_Elegant said:
I'd say it deeply depends for me. I'd say things like One Piece are deeply escapist to me: while there is an element of discussion surrounding the concepts of freedom and authority, it's really not so deep, and it's not supposed to be! I'd say that and Jojo have got to be my big choices for anime that I just watch because they're great fun distractions (and also motivate me to work out lmao).

Other anime I'd say are much less escapist. As an Urobuchi fanboy I have to cite Fate/Zero and Psycho-Pass, and stories like Berserk and Steins;Gate could even qualify. While these anime do have escapist potential due to their cool worlds and beautiful visuals, I would argue that their grim nature dampens this. Instead, I like these anime because they create potential for discussion and I don't feel that they speak down to the viewer. There are always arguments that could be explored and belief systems to be applied. I don't think of these as escapist anime.

While I agree that some anime makes one think more then others, the point in criticizing the "dumb" anime should be to make people think, not shut them up, that I like watching what I think is stupid anime is in no way escapist, rather those often are very interesting to find out why I think they are stupid and always criticizing my own take on the series seeing if theres more to then I first thought.

I don't think that means it isn't escapist media, and I wouldn't call Jojo or One Piece "dumb", but I still would qualify them as escapist (I supppose one could make the argument that Jojo's main strength is Araki's designs, so it may be more appropriate to call it an aesthetic work, but I think most people enjoy it for escapist reasons). Just because you can think critically about a work doesn't stop it from being an escapist piece, while just because a piece is escapist does not mean it is bad. Why are you so against the term "escapism" in general? It is not inherently negative, and I'd argue it's often a very positive term.

Well why do call it 'escapist' when 'fiction' or 'story' serves that purpose you are talking about much better.
The word 'escapist' sounds like you are escaping something you would rather want to do or something you think you should do, one should enjoy things one wants to enjoy and do things one think one should do, the word escapist I distract myself from both and do what everyone else want me to do.

]

"Escapist" is a more proper term because it is a specific term for fiction that serves as a purpose of distracting from reality for a fun excursion, whether by design or not. "Story" just refers to a set of events, sure "One Piece" is a story but so is George Washington's biography or the story of the Peloponnesian War, it's too general a term. "Fiction" just refers to any narrative that is invented and did not actually occur, people don't refer to fiction like "Lolita" by Vladimir Nabokov or "Requiem for a Dream" as "escapist" because they are disturbing reminders of upsetting issues in real life, they point to stressful aspects of life rather than distract from it.

I think the issue isn't so much "whether or not anime is escapist" it's just that you don't like the term escapism and wish that the linguists who came up with it decided on another term. Which is all fine, but there's not much that can be done about that.

Well I can accept the definition so that I know I don't agree with the position of those using the word.
Because it is not term I am criticizing, it is the people that use it, not seeing the damage their way of speaking does.
They stand for anti-intelectual movement of wanting to avoid discussion and I am pointing that out and why words like 'escapism', 'trolling' and 'objectivity/subjectivity' function like that.
Naming a genre escapist would be fine if it still meant that that genre is taken seriously like all art, and escapist means only the exclusion of say 'drama' or 'realism' or what you would call "real life problems in fiction".
But the fact is, it is used to stop really thinking about things most of the time.

And about enjoying something for escapist reasons, everything can fulfill the role of escapism, that is my point!

Well that's kind of a lot to unpack, but the thing is, someone can call a piece escapist while still believing it to be worth discussion. J.R.R. Tolkien's works are often given both the labels of escapist fantasy and high art. I agree with your point that if people use the term to be dismissive, they are misusing the term, but I think that just has more of a problem with the people themselves being generally dismissive of new types of media rather than anything having to do with the concept of escapism itself.

I do take umbrage with the claim "anything can be escapism" though. Some pieces just take too much effort to operate that way for any reasonable person. Google the first page of "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce; I'd be seriously surprised and concerned if anyone claimed that it felt like an escapist novel.

Ok so I agree with your position 'escapist' as genre that is still taken seriously.
My point of everything can be escapist, is that reality itself is mostly escapist.
People work to forget things, people are mean to others to forget things.
The only escape is this avoidaince of thinking.
My problem is not with some textbook defintion, it is people use to make out reality like the only thing that matters.
No, fiction matters because it is the only way to truly face reality.

You might enjoy the philosophy of Rene Descartes, he often talks about how uncertain reality is, but coined the famous phrase "I think, therefore I am". He addresses some of what you're talking about, and the school of metaphysics in general is a beautiful tradition of thought addressing some of these concerns. I myself grew a great interest in the nature of "reality" after playing MGS2. Snake's line at the end "What most people think of reality is actually just fiction" is one that resonates with me deeply.

I think the problem people are having with your thread and why you're feeling no one is addressing your concern is that the use of the term 'escapist/m' is a bit ill-advised here. You're saying you have no problem with the 'textbook definition' of escapism nor with the categorization of genre under escapism, but rather a specific rhetorical (perhaps foolish) strategy that some groups use to dismiss fiction. I think if you made the much cleaner claim of "People who dismiss anime as having merit based on preconceived notions are in the wrong", you'd find almost everyone here agrees with you (except for maybe some self-hating weebs).

Yeah Rene Decartes "I think therefore I am" is what Zizek the philosopher i follow is arguing for when he says we should go back to the cartesian view of the subject just with the added insights from psychoanalysis.
Thanks for the advise, but I make a point in trying to provoke because one thing is it challenges the idea of a consensus based in common sense.
My point is that people don't agree with each other on a fundamentall level and a bit heated conflict can show how no one truly agrees with anyone else, just we meet each other from time to time when the words fall into place.

Oh... Zizek. Interesting guy for sure.

But, I have to say, when you tell me "[you] make a point in trying to provoke", it just makes it seem kind of... intellectually dishonest. It plays like you're just intentionally confusing people by operating with a similar yet distinct definition. It sounds like, dare I say, clickbait.

Well it is the opposite actually, I provoke people to make visible the confusion people already have but never fully discussed.
It is shown by the very reaction by my provocation, a person that is not confused would not so easily dismiss what I am saying.
Because to be sure of oneself is to try to understand others fully before rejecting their claim.
'Intellectually dishonest' is another word used to not take seriously what other people are saying.
I would claim that it is impossible to be intellectually honest, because honesty can only be honest nothing more or less intellectuall about it.

So you've proven that if you intentionally confuse people, they will be confused... Congrats?

Honestly dude, I think the "question everything" attitude you're going for is admirable and a good start but you're going about this in a way that makes you seem (and I mean this in the sweetest way possible) really arrogant. You keep saying that the traditional definitions of terms are incorrect, but how are your definitions any more reliable? At least the traditional definitions have the backing of cultural acceptance and Occam's Razor, there is no reason for us to prefer your definitions that were custom-made for your arguments.

Socrates was called the wisest man in Greece because he said "All I know, is that I know nothing". You're kind of going the opposite approach. You're claiming that the terms you use are the 'true' terms that humanity should turn to. What's especially ironic is that I (and some, not all, of the folks here) am simply offering critiques, not dismissal. It is YOU is being dismissive, Safeanew. You're claiming "No, I'm right about this" because you are simply redefining your terms so that nothing you say can be wrong.

It's the same as if I made a thread saying "Horses are actually dogs", and if someone replied to me with a definition of a dog that a horse doesn't fit, I could just say "Well, I'm personally redefining the concept of 'dogs' here as any animal that primarily operates on four legs". Like yeah, I'm right via that definition, but nothing is proven and it looks like a project I just set up to make myself feel smart.

No they are confused to begin with, I am not really proving it, I am just claiming that is what shows in how people talk.
Wise men is what common sense is, so the wisest man is the one that know nothing can also mean that the blind masses that follow common sense know nothing.
I am dismissive of one thing and that is the word 'escapism'.
No one has argued against the philosophical claim I made that 'one needs fiction to face reality' in a convincing way.
People just argue for common sense and definitions, not wanting know what the other is talking about.

Expand that 'one needs fiction to face reality'

If one try to only face reality, it leads to blind following of common sense.
It is only in fiction one is allowed to delve beyond common sense and face the desires one can't accept.

Common sense is neither a fiction or non-fiction though. So making common sense isn't realism or non-realism. It's basically just a collection of things (rules, ideas, opinions, etc.) that is common. It's like an unwritten rule book.

Yeah and that is what structures reality as in there is no reality without the illusion of common sense.
Common sense is not only an unwritten rule book, it is the thing guides everyones actions without them having to directly believe in it.

Ok so what does this have to do with escapism or not. How does this tie up. I don't see it.

The common sense is escapism itself it functions because it is common sense so one should not question it, because one have to think like everbody else because if one don't one is a 'troll', an 'intelectual dishonest person' and 'one escapes from reality'.
I claim that thinking starts when common sense ends.

But that isn't escapism. You never think about what a common sense is. It just is. Now arguing if something is common sense or not, that may be a form of escapism. Common sense itself isn't a form of escapism.

Well I call common sense escapism because that is how it functions, you follow something that 'is' without deciding for yourself if it is really true, that is how todays society is more religious then ever, people believe in things without directly believing in it.

How is it something that escapes from reality when you don't even interact with it in any way at all.

Today's society isn't as religious as ever. What? We compare this to the 1400s and it's not even comparable.
On top of that, religion can be a form of escapism. For example, people use religion to ignore about dying because to them if they die a good person they go to heaven. That is a form of believing.

So now, how does common sense become a form of escapism? Let's not run around the question here.
Is it a form of:
- The fish died
why?
common sense: the tank is dirty.

But then that's the actual reality. Not something that escapes reality.

That is a fact, not what I call common sense, if it not certain that the fish died because of it , it is a hypothesis.
Common sense enters when it is not fact based but group based.
As in I believe in it because the majority believes in it.

Okay. You didn't answer my question. How does common sense become a form of escapism. I gave an example on how it could be but it really isn't.

So now, tell me how it becomes a form of escapism.

Well mostly it is by treating people like fools for having different opinions.
Specifically trying to make people talk in a certain way to avoid having to accept that people don't agree about reality itself, because it is only experienced through illusion makes it that no one can hold the unbiased objective opinion, because that would avoid the point of not agreeing in the first place.
I am saying common sense is an escape from really listening to other people.

I think you are mixing up escape and escapism here. You are likely making something simple more complicated for no reason.
So if trying to make people talk in a certain way is escapism, does that mean that laws are escapism.

You could say that "common sense is an escape from really listening to other people". Yeah an escape, not an escapism.

You sure you didn't get your terms mixed up?

My point is that how people use escapism is wrong, because the only escapist part of enjoying fiction is this 'common sense' that hinders fully exploring said fiction and seeing it as a means in itself.

Wat. How is it wrong. Escapism in fiction is basically the fantasy aspect of it. This person is so interested in fiction that he makes the troubles of real life less worse by thinking and engaging on fiction.

Mar 1, 2019 2:11 AM

#256

joshua10red

Offline

Apr 2016

1546

Safeanew said:

joshua10red said:
Hmmm honestly i never thought of anime an escapism.. For me is like a hobby,an entertainment, a way to relax.

That is great, what do you like in the anime you like?

For me to like an anime it has to meet some elements.
First of all it needs to have a good story that can keep me entertained. If the story is bad, boring or in worst cases disturbing or disgusting then there's 0 chances to like that anime.
Secondly, it needs good art and animation. If the story is good but the characters look like crap or the anime has bad CGI then again I can't like that anime.
Then it comes the characters. If the anime doesn't have at least one enjoyable character then i can't like that anime.
And of course music. The better the music is the more I like the anime..

So in short in my favorite anime i like the story, art/animation, characters and the music

Mar 1, 2019 2:13 AM

#257

Safeanew

Offline

Jul 2014

1151

[quote=zieek message=57044899][quote=Safeanew message=57044834]

zieek said:

Safeanew said:

That is nice!
What would you say is special about anime for you compared to other mediums, what kind of experience do you get?

Not an appropriate responce I know but bear with me.

When I watch an anime I feel I relate more to the characters portrayed there than the actors in liveaction. Their lives seem closer to mine, their way of thinking is straightforward and naive.

The situations in films, tv series and books are supposed to make you feel as though you live through everything the mc's have expirianced, and are entertained by it. But the messages they offer, given to the viewer are not appealing, at least to me. Anime is to put it simply easier to take in, maybe I'm just more susceptible to watching drawings and being influanced by them than by liveaction.

Let's agree or agree to disagree, shall we.

Great comment!

Yeah agree that anime is more relateable to me then non-anime, it is hard to say all these details that catch ones eye.
Anime feels for me like it can delve in to other topics that other mediums don't touch.
The characters that show up in anime is also hard to find anywhere else.
Because it is drawings it can more freely express the motions it wants to show.

Mar 1, 2019 2:19 AM

#258

Shiroanon

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May 2016

975