Free Will

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free will and psych vs god and scare tactics?

Oct 25, 2008 1:32 AM

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I don't agree with the fact that accepting/rejecting Jesus has to do with only personal experiences. Also, if you reject him, then I hardly see how you can worry about an individual who doesn't exist who hasn't condemned you to a place that isn't real.

I take it you consider yourself as part of some denomination, since you acknowledged the fact that whether or not you believe something you are still punishable by that belief's terms.

Oct 25, 2008 1:35 AM

Razma

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Free will made this thread my friend

although I agree entirely with the god statement, if got is truly all knowing, then he knows if we go to heaven or hell and what kind of merciful god creates a person to spend 70 years on earth and then the rest of eternity in hell.

but that changes nothing in relation to free will, if you believe in fate and we truly have no free will you have to deep down inside believe in some sort of god, even if that god is fate, it is still there.

Oct 25, 2008 1:41 AM

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Razma said:
but that changes nothing in relation to free will, if you believe in fate and we truly have no free will you have to deep down inside believe in some sort of god, even if that god is fate, it is still there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

The idea of 'free will' has been scientifically outdated for 300 years or so. :')

Our brains are programmable machines that carry out a set of functions, very complex one, but still meagre slaves to their instruction sets as per the laws of physics.

Perelman, martyr

Oct 25, 2008 1:46 AM

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Raistlin said:
I take it you consider yourself as part of some denomination, since you acknowledged the fact that whether or not you believe something you are still punishable by that belief's terms.

Just because you're analyzing someone else's beliefs and taking them into the equation does not mean you share them.

The idea of free will is quite relevant due to the Christian belief in the afterlife and the 'divine right to choice' of whether to believe in God or not.

And yes, whether you do accept Jesus or not does come down to experience. I've never heard of a man who has never heard of Jesus ever accepting him into his heart. You're saying culture is irrelevant in the matter of accepting Jesus and being a Christian. But when has it ever been?

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Oct 25, 2008 1:54 AM

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Of course culture is important to being christian ... Why did you think they had missionaries 'invade' other cultures to spread the belief? The New World Migration and the spread of christianity to 'uncivilized' people.

Oct 25, 2008 1:58 AM

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starclaws said:
Of course culture is important to being christian ... Why did you think they had missionaries 'invade' other cultures to spread the belief? The New World Migration and the spread of christianity to 'uncivilized' people.

Exactly. Therefor determinism determined why people became Christians or not. Not free will.

Razma said:
Free will made this thread my friend

A complex series of cause and effect made this thread.

But mostly watching an anime today that brought up the word sin, at least in subtitle.
And thinking about the effects of free will on culture and a person being to blame for 'their' own sins. This little autonomous creation called free will and sin and how we treat it in society.

Thinking about it brought so much distraction that I couldn't even concentrate on the episode. So I came here and made a thread about it for personal release.

Cause...and effect.

ukonkiviOct 25, 2008 2:02 AM

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Oct 25, 2008 2:07 AM

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An introduction to Bush-logic, First edition. by khorven
Chapter 1: A formal proof that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.
Definition 1: 'Bush'
forall x (presidentoftheunitedstatesbetween2000to2008(x) <-> bush(x) )

Axiom 1: Bush is president by will of god.
Axiom 2: America is a great democracy.
Axiom 3: Humans have free will with which God will never interfere.
ex contradictione quodlibet (from a contradiction, all will follow)
Conclusion: Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. (amongst many others)

The funny part is that this is completely valid logic. :')

It's just that out of this also follows that Iraq does not have them and pigs can fly.

Perelman, martyr

Oct 25, 2008 2:07 AM

#10

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ah but still partially "free will" still the choice of being cut down by a 'holy army' or denying the missionary rather than converting to their beliefs though most 'choose' life over belief
and...
the whole 'afterlife' infinity of torment scare-tactics vs a loss of a sunday and repenting ;p

they try and make it an easy choice ahaha

edit: khorven stay out of topics that your just trying to degrade with random nonsense... Just ignore him

Oct 25, 2008 2:09 AM

#11

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Razma said:

but that changes nothing in relation to free will, if you believe in fate and we truly have no free will you have to deep down inside believe in some sort of god, even if that god is fate, it is still there.

Hmmm...I disagree. The idea of God generally generates a greater belief in the idea of free will while a belief in scientific reasoning generally generates a greater belief in the idea of determinism.

We work our idea of science around the idea of a deterministic universe. Including the human brain. We don't say a human chose to do the way it did anymore than we say a ball chose to hit the ground of it's own free will. We say gravity did it.

I think you're trying to mystify the idea of causal determinism by saying fate instead of determinism.

It changes everything in relation to free will because free will is a Christian idea.
It is absolutely central to the idea of Salvation and Condemnation.

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Oct 25, 2008 2:12 AM

#12

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Dec 2007

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free will vs political law
rather than free will vs gods laws ... theres still that

Oct 25, 2008 2:13 AM

#13

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starclaws said:
ah but still partially "free will" still the choice of being cut down by a 'holy army' or denying the missionary rather than converting to their beliefs though most 'choose' life over belief

Whether you choose life or death in a situation is not independent of a causal universe.
Even if you choose to die just to be unusual. It was a series of cause and effect events that caused you to make an unusual decision.

ukonkiviOct 25, 2008 2:19 AM

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Oct 25, 2008 2:18 AM

#14

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grrr.... plato
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

ahahaha i knew usual and unusual .... wasnt right...

i was so confused for a sec

Oct 25, 2008 2:24 AM

#15

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starclaws said:

ahahaha i knew usual and unusual .... wasnt right...

Are you talking about my typo?

Also, what point do you mean by posting the link you are posting?

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Oct 25, 2008 2:30 AM

#16

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I haven't taken much into philosophy and all that. ... Actually none really. Hard to grasp certain terms I haven't heard or seen before ;p

Edit: simply forgot 'or'

Oct 25, 2008 2:46 AM

#17

traed

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your thoughts kinda half-baked lol

Oct 25, 2008 2:47 AM

#18

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traed said:
your thoughts kinda half-baked lol

whos?

and mmmm ben&jerrys ....heh

Oct 25, 2008 2:48 AM

#19

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traed said:
your thoughts kinda half-baked lol

Who are you referring to?

And what materials are you responding to?

Otherwise you're not adding much to the debate. Only insulting someone whom we can only guess who.

Edit: lol beaten.

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Oct 25, 2008 2:53 AM

#20

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hey now ... i dont think its khorvan since i established we should ignore him and im not in my right mind ... also extremely lazy at arguements (sure... my excuse) ;p

and yup ahaha ...

....idea light bulb......

Oct 25, 2008 3:12 AM

#21

Kappaka

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I guess our brains are so complex that we don't realise we're programmed to do certain things and that lack of awareness gives the impression of 'free will'.

Oct 25, 2008 3:53 AM

#22

Shermstyle23

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Of course everything is deterministic. Every cause has an effect.
I believe to say the ball hits the ground because of gravity is not the same as I was raised by Christians and chose to be Christian.

Of course, influences surround every environment as everything around us makes an impact on our thought process no matter how small it might be.
Seeing the color yellow before I buy an ice cream cone, may be a determining factor in the flavor of ice cream I may buy if I wasnt sure about what flavor to get.
It appears you are pitting the aspects of free will vs a deterministic view. But in fact, they both can exist at the same time.
Take for instance, if you put a being with a blank slate (just the mind of a newborn with no interaction with the world or outside influences; just a well lit white room with no windows or doors. Then whatever action that beign takes, what would you call that being's first action: deterministic characteristic or free will?

wouldnt you say both? Since the being was put in the room, whatever action the being took was due to being put in the room. And without any outside influences, the being made a decision to do whatever that being's first action was. Whether that being crawled or jumped, that being did what they did without any outside influences to making them do what they did and yet it still had a deterministic characteristic of cause and effect. Being jumped or crawled because he was in the room.
Or would you say its one or the oher (deterministic or free will) Being jumped because he was in room = deterministic
Being jumped because being wanted to jump instead of standing still = free will
Its all a matter of interpretation.

Person A can say life is complex because everything is a system
Another can say the life is simple because its all one system
I can say that life is simple and complex because a simple idea as a child to create a way to fly can also be complex with the details of actually creating an aircraft.

Its all a matter of perspective. Its good to find out what you think by asking these questions. It helps you find your views but as fr actually looking for an answer, who are you really asking?! The people in these forums, a rhetorical question to expand your own views, an almighty being that holds the answer, or do you just want to find out what others think?
From us, you'll only get our perspectives which can help form or expand your own, which is great. But if you are looking for real answers, I'm afraid that we dont have any more insight to the truth than you do. Our views may be different in some ways, but the truth for these type of questions you will not find here or maybe ever.

Oct 25, 2008 4:03 AM

#23

Sohei

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theres no such thing as free will. All present and future actions are determined by my manipulation of society. : )

seriously though, where in the bible/koran/torah does it state that god controls the fate of the universe?

Oct 25, 2008 4:04 AM

#24

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Shermstyle23 said:
Then whatever action that beign takes, what would you call that being's first action: deterministic characteristic or free will?

Still determinism. Just more simplified.

Shermstyle23 said:
Being jumped because being wanted to jump instead of standing still = free will

Wanting something is determined by cause and effect as well.
So therefor not free will.

Shermstyle23 said:

Its all a matter of perspective.

This is a perspective to the same degree that the world being flat or round is a perspective.

ukonkiviOct 25, 2008 4:09 AM

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Oct 25, 2008 4:14 AM

#25

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Actually, the standard model of physics excludes determinism per the Copenhagen Interpretation / Bell's Theorem. However the vast bulk of physicists believe that this is the single indication showing that the Standard Model is still flawed in its current state and what will supplant it will again have determinism, like the Newtonian laws before it and General Relativity.

String Theory is deterministic I believe but don't quote me on that.

Perelman, martyr

Oct 25, 2008 4:23 AM

#26

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Well the whole idea of string theory is the whole idea of several universes bending the ultimate tiniest subatomic particles.

I don't see why these universes couldn't ever be discovered or calculated, in which they can only be if they are deterministic. You can't measure indeterministic things.

Everything that can be measured or thought of logically works itself around the idea of cause and effect. In an indeterministic universe, the universe was never created, it just exists. But we as scientific human beings say "no, there must be a cause for everything, even the very universe itself", so we came up with the big bang.

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Oct 25, 2008 4:57 AM

#27

Baman

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Free will is a nice idea, but nothing more. We are biological prewired to do certain things, seek some stimuli and shun others. Continuing on, the entirety of our personality and life experiences becomes nothing more but the sum of a very advanced formula.

Thus, if you created a complete copy of yourself, and brought this clone up in the exact same way, ths creature would become exactly like you with no difference at all. Actually carrying out such an experiment is of course, at present, impossible, but I daresay we know enough about the the various factors already to estimate what the outcome would be.

One will always, without fail, choose the option that produce the most personal enjoyment. There cannot exist any creature on this world that does not.
However, due to our intelligence, we attribute our "choices" to "free will" rather than mechanistic and deterministic principles.

Oct 25, 2008 5:09 AM

#28

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ukonkivi said:
Well the whole idea of string theory is the whole idea of several universes bending the ultimate tiniest subatomic particles.

I don't see why these universes couldn't ever be discovered or calculated, in which they can only be if they are deterministic. You can't measure indeterministic things.

Everything that can be measured or thought of logically works itself around the idea of cause and effect. In an indeterministic universe, the universe was never created, it just exists. But we as scientific human beings say "no, there must be a cause for everything, even the very universe itself", so we came up with the big bang.

Study physics before you talk here dear. This is nonsense.

The standard model is not deterministic and can calculate things, Bells Theorem proves it.

Perelman, martyr

Oct 25, 2008 5:21 AM

#29

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Well I do not support Bell's Theorem. I believe physical theories much be deterministic or they are simply lacking in information.
Hidden variables are a dead end road.

People often throw in Quantum Mechanics and "randomness" and stuff to say "we just just don't know and we can't".
Yes we can, we just don't know yet.

This is the sort of reasoning that allows people to put "God" into everything. Something I don't know is there, so it must be God!

Anyway even when it comes to "hidden variables": Bohm interpretation.

ukonkiviOct 25, 2008 5:25 AM

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Oct 25, 2008 6:22 AM

#30

Sakinho

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Even if the universe turns out to be completely deterministic, that doesn't necessarily mean everything is going to be predictable, and free will shall be non-existent.

As an example, let's try to calculate which horse would win in a horse race. The first obvious variables to account for are the general health of the horse, how well he is trained and the experience of the rider. This is sufficient to increase only a little the odds of you winning against someone who picks randomly. To increase your accuracy, you would have to take into account variables which are more difficult to describe and assign a weight to, such as the softness of the soil (dependent on the composition), the condition of the horse's metabolism (dependent on genetics and nutrition), and the optimal trajectory to take towards the finish line (dependent on local topology). These variables are strange, and an attempt to introduce them into a predictive equation will generally make it less effective.

For complete determinism, you'd have to describe accurately even things like cloud cover, which would be related to air humidity and photon pressure of the sun's light, which in turn would depend on the sun's output and the thickness of the atmosphere, which would in turn be dependent on disturbances in the gravitational field of the Earth, which would in turn be dependent on the movement of mass inside the Earth, which would in turn be described by complex fluid flow and radioactive decay of elements, which would also affect heat flow, which would affect tectonics, which would affect atmospheric composition... you get the picture.

In short, even if complete determinism exists, it would be too complex of a task to calculate even the simplest events for all practical purposes; the number of variables involved just increases too fast and it all gets too complicated when you try to reach for it. Determinism would require every variable to be accounted for and expressed in a mathematical sense, and if even only one variable is missing, complete determinism would go down the drain. Such unimaginable complexity, even if it were strictly completely understandable, would emulate non-determinism in larger scales, so free will would still look like it'd exist.

Kemonomimi Shoujo, a site dedicated to beautiful nekomimis, inumimis, kitsunemimis, usagimimis and more! Check out the club, too!

Oct 25, 2008 6:33 AM

#31

hikky

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Since free will doesn't exist (Everything you do has a plain and very real biological reason, you can't defy your biology..) I also wish it could stop being used as a justification for a crappy and hole-filled religious argument.

Oct 25, 2008 7:22 AM

#32

Sohei

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hikky said:
Since free will doesn't exist (Everything you do has a plain and very real biological reason, you can't defy your biology..) I also wish it could stop being used as a justification for a crappy and hole-filled religious argument.

a reason does not mean there is or isn't such a thing as free will. Free will is attached to if/ or if not your actions have been pre-determined.

Oct 25, 2008 8:08 AM

#33

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I feel that compatibilism exists in such a case as this. It maintains that determinism is compatible with free will.A person acts freely only when the person willed the act and the person could have done otherwise, if the person had decided to.

"To illustrate their position, compatibilists point to clear-cut cases of someone's free will being denied, through rape, murder, theft, or other forms of constraint. In these cases, free will is lacking not because the past is causally determining the future, but because the aggressor is overriding the victim's desires and preferences about his own actions. The aggressor is coercing the victim and, according to compatibilists, this is what overrides free will. Thus, they argue that determinism does not matter; what matters is that individuals' choices are the results of their own desires and preferences, and are not overridden by some external (or internal) force."

To be a compatibilist, one need not endorse any particular conception of free will, but only deny that determinism is at odds with free will.

Oct 25, 2008 8:24 AM

#34

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hikky said:
Since free will doesn't exist (Everything you do has a plain and very real biological reason, you can't defy your biology..)

Which biology are you talking about.
If you're talking about biological determinism, then no, sociology also applies to determinism.

Anything that has a cause and effect.

hikky said:
I also wish it could stop being used as a justification for a crappy and hole-filled religious argument.

If it's such a crappy argument then you should have no trouble tearing it apart.
Do address.

jrsygrl0601 said:
I feel that compatibilism exists in such a case as this. It maintains that determinism is compatible with free will.A person acts freely only when the person willed the act and the person could have done otherwise, if the person had decided to.

So you're saying that sometimes cause and effect decides things, and other times it does not? And that the human brain is one of those cases where no clear cause can be determined?

jrsygrl0601 said:

"To illustrate their position, compatibilists point to clear-cut cases of someone's free will being denied, through rape, murder, theft, or other forms of constraint. In these cases, free will is lacking not because the past is causally determining the future, but because the aggressor is overriding the victim's desires and preferences about his own actions. The aggressor is coercing the victim and, according to compatibilists, this is what overrides free will. Thus, they argue that determinism does not matter; what matters is that individuals' choices are the results of their own desires and preferences, and are not overridden by some external (or internal) force.".

Free will has nothing to do with being forced into doing something or having a choice available. It has to do with choices already being determined because of past events.

Someone's will cannot be denied. They can still choose to die if they like. They simply have less choices in a matter we often call "coercion".

The amount of "free" will someone has does not change depending on how many options they are given. The idea of 'free will' and options should not be skewed together.

We all have a will. But whether it is free from cause or not is what is in question.

ukonkiviOct 25, 2008 8:31 AM

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Oct 25, 2008 8:30 AM

#35

asandari

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I agree, and I've ranted about this many times (minus the religious context). Unfortunately I've nothing to say on it at the moment, and no will to do so. Perhaps I'll go more into depth later when I've caught up on the thread.

Let me clarify my belief:
All of our choices were pre-decided, by cause and effect logic.
The end.

Oct 25, 2008 8:30 AM

#36

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So you're saying that sometimes cause and effect decides things, and other times it does not? And that the human brain is one of those cases where no clear cause can be determined? Interpret it as you deem fit, my friend. I have no desire or want to continue chatting on this subject when i have already established my opinion on the matter. Take it or leave it. In such a case as this, i'm using my free will, and choosing not to reply any longer, that was not determined for me.

Oct 25, 2008 8:36 AM

#37

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jrsygrl0601 said:

Interpret it as you deem fit, my friend. I have no desire or want to continue chatting on this subject when i have already established my opinion on the matter. Take it or leave it. In such a case as this, i'm using my free will, and choosing not to reply any longer, that was not determined for me.

If it's so interpretable, then it is not established at all.

You you don't think any past events had any effect on whether or not you chose to open this thread, respond to it, and then say you wouldn't respond to it? Why is your brain so magical and above the powers of the universe? Is your brain not made of atoms like everything else?

Seems like to say our brains are above the laws of the universe is pretty egotistical.
I personally believe that you believe in free will not because you have free will, but because of culture.
And that you want to leave this thread and not continue responding because of a psychological desire to, not free will.

ukonkiviOct 25, 2008 8:42 AM

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Oct 25, 2008 8:46 AM

#38

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ukonkivi said:

If it's so interpretable, then it is not established at all.

YOU may interpret. I have established it. I am not generally speaking LoLxD i'm speaking in terms of my opinions, and because i respect yours, i see no reason in challenging another's thoughts. It's really, a waste of valuable time, that could be spent making progress elsewhere. Talking to people on threads such as these is like talking to a wall, everyone has their set opinions on the matter. You're getting no where. Have you gained any knowledge you did not already begin with? Do you feel that any progress has been made? what is the point of such a thread as this if no progress is being made?

Oct 25, 2008 8:48 AM

#39

asandari

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There's nothing disrespectful in challenging a logically based opinion.

Oct 25, 2008 8:50 AM

#40

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Sakinho said:
Even if the universe turns out to be completely deterministic, that doesn't necessarily mean everything is going to be predictable, and free will shall be non-existent.

Yes, we are nowhere near having the technology able to computer all the causal factors involved in the outcome of each individual human choice.

But we can see evidence from the factors we do calculate.
In crime, we call it motive. In sociology, we call it culture.

Again, we don't have the technology or ability yet to calculate all variables that create a human behavior, but we can understand and see a lot of the effects of determinism without all the potholes being filled.

And if there is a free will, psychology would be a totally useless study.

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Oct 25, 2008 9:00 AM

#41

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"Free will has nothing to do with being forced into doing something or having a choice available"

Shall i take out my dictionary for you.

FREE WILL: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Would not free will be defined as the execution of "psychological desires" as well? :O

"It has to do with choices already being determined because of past events."

yes, as i stated, "..free will is lacking not because the past is causally determining the future, but because the aggressor is overriding the victim's desires..." in such an instance.

"You you don't think any past events had any effect on whether or not you chose to open this thread, respond to it, and then say you wouldn't respond to it? Why is your brain so magical and above the powers of the universe? Is your brain not made of atoms like everything else?"

Of course, but it was my choice to click the link to open this thread, and use my fingers to type my words, and move my mouse to the post message button. xD i had to think about them obviously, my choise as to what i would/would not write, you know. Compatiblist, feel that both determinism and free will exists , mind you. i'm not saying determinism is a false theory. Where Expectations arise, free will comes into play. Agreed? LoLxD i never said my brain is so above the universe, you're overanalyzing my opinion. xD

*please, this is just my opinion, LoL, why do you want to push it further? **red=what you said =\ * =D

jrsygrl0601Oct 25, 2008 9:08 AM

Oct 25, 2008 9:03 AM

#42

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awwws U_________U my boldnesses didn't work *goes to edit* =D

Oct 25, 2008 9:10 AM

#43

hikky

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ukonkivi said:

hikky said:
Since free will doesn't exist (Everything you do has a plain and very real biological reason, you can't defy your biology..)

Which biology are you talking about.
If you're talking about biological determinism, then no, sociology also applies to determinism.

Anything that has a cause and effect.

What does sociology have to do with this? That just clouds up the discussion.

It's simple, you can call it determinism if you like, but everything has a cause and effect. Free will infers the unhindered ability of choice.. and thus free will has not and is not likely to come about in a biological organism. Everything humans do is simply a product of the human's memories, emotions, hormones, etc. making one choice or the other a stronger candidate. Every decision we make is, in one way or another, in the pursuit of pleasure. If you do something unpleasant to try and disprove that, it's only because you get more pleasure out of attempting to disprove it than doing something else that might be pleasurable. Since the decision-making process is chemical and not magical, it's certainly deterministic and shows a lack of actual "free will".

I'd question whether such a thing as free will COULD realistically even exist. To make a free and unbiased decision, you would have to have none of the properties that would cause you to make the decision in the first place.

ukonkivi said:

hikky said:
I also wish it could stop being used as a justification for a crappy and hole-filled religious argument.

If it's such a crappy argument then you should have no trouble tearing it apart.
Do address.

What do you mean, destroy it? There's nothing to destroy. It's based on a false premise: "God gave man freewill because he didn't want to create robots, you have to choose to love him etc etc.". I guess you wouldn't even call it an argument, more a (poor) response to the accusation of "If a god exists and hates evil, why would he/she/it create/allow evil?". Criminals are criminals not because of some mystic moral deviancy, they're criminals because of their brain composition, motivating factors, and their past experiences.

jrsygrl0601 said:
"Free will has nothing to do with being forced into doing something or having a choice available"

Shall i take out my dictionary for you.

FREE WILL: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Would not free will be defined as the execution of "psychological desires" as well? :O

"It has to do with choices already being determined because of past events."

yes, as i stated, "..free will is lacking not because the past is causally determining the future, but because the aggressor is overriding the victim's desires..." in such an instance.

"You you don't think any past events had any effect on whether or not you chose to open this thread, respond to it, and then say you wouldn't respond to it? Why is your brain so magical and above the powers of the universe? Is your brain not made of atoms like everything else?"

Of course, but it was my choice to click the link to open this thread, and use my fingers to type my words, and move my mouse to the post message button. xD i had to think about them obviously, my choise as to what i would/would not write, you know. Compatiblist, feel that both determinism and free will exists , mind you. i'm not saying determinism is a false theory. Where Expectations arise, free will comes into play. Agreed? LoLxD i never said my brain is so above the universe, you're overanalyzing my opinion. xD

*please, this is just my opinion, LoL, why do you want to push it further? **red=what you said = * =D

And what caused you to open this thread? Your interest in the discussion. What is the discussion? A debate about free will. What is the principle of a debate? Being right or wrong. What feeling is associated with being correct, or "winning" a debate? Pride, a form of pleasure. What causes pride and pleasure? Hormones.

That's why you came into this thread, because you're a slave to your hormones. Just like everyone is. That's just how the brain works. (There's no need to post a "No, that's not why I came to this thread" type response, because whatever reason you had inevitably breaks down to the same thing.)

hikkyOct 25, 2008 9:17 AM

Oct 25, 2008 9:20 AM

#44

Baman

Offline

Feb 2005

13573

Let's look at it with an evolutionary perspective. Why should a creature develop free will? At best, it might enable it to obtain a good result in a slump of luck, but at worst it could make the creature die because of a stupid choice.
Survival and reproduction are the top priorities for any organism, and biological prewired instincts and "choices" help to this cause, whereas a random and unpredictable free will would only serve to complicate and possibly endanger the creature's existence.
Logic, perception and insight are all abilities that have evolved to increase our survivability, and are certainly not rooted in choice and free will.

I would say our idea of "free will" is nothing more than a culturally based defense mechanism, that obscures the cold mechanistic determinism behind our very existence so that we are lead to believe our lives are our own, and that our choices and actions have meaning. If we didn't have such delusions, most of us would no doubt descend into apathy and nihilism.

jrsygrl0601 said:
Of course, but it was my choice to click the link to open this thread, and use my fingers to type my words, and move my mouse to the post message button. xD i had to think about them obviously, my choise as to what i would/would not write, you know. Compatiblist, feel that both determinism and free will exists , mind you. i'm not saying determinism is a false theory. Where Expectations arise, free will comes into play. Agreed? LoLxD i never said my brain is so above the universe, you're overanalyzing my opinion. xD

True, you choose to reply to this topic. But why? Wasn't it because of your accumulated knowledge of web based discussion and curiosity/interest in the subject? There was a reason for your "choice", and although it's hard for me, not being inside your mind, to describe step by step the chain of events that lead to this "choice" of yours, it would definitely be possible if we managed to find all the countless factors, motivators and mental gears and clockwork that formed your decision.

BamanOct 25, 2008 9:29 AM

Oct 25, 2008 9:24 AM

#45

Offline

May 2008

31862

jrsygrl0601 said:

Shall i take out my dictionary for you.

FREE WILL: The power of making free [bold]choices[/bold] that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Would not free will be defined as the execution of "psychological desires" as well? :O

The execution of psychological desires would be will, but not free will.
Psychological desires have physical realm which determines their existence.
Conscious thought, emotion chemicals such as dopamine.

Just as a computer has a hard drive and chemicals that run throughout it.

And I don't know what dictionary you're reading, but here's another one.

The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic.

By the way, please consult this link posted earlier in the thread.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

jrsygrl0601 said:

yes, as i stated, "..free will is lacking not because the past is causally determining the future, but because the aggressor is overriding the victim's desires..." in such an instance.

This is an area of options, not will being free.
Whether you are given options or forcibly coerced into something, that does not change whether your will is free from determinism.

If a person has an absolutely unhindered will, it is still no more free than a person who has a gun pointed to their head.

jrsygrl0601 said:

Of course, but it was my choice to click the link to open this thread, and use my fingers to type my words, and move my mouse to the post message button.

The fact it was your choice to do it does not make your will to do it free.
Choices are causally determined.

jrsygrl0601 said:
xD i had to think about them obviously

Thinking is a deterministic process.

jrsygrl0601 said:
my choise as to what i would/would not write, you know.

Your choice came about through a series of cause and effect.

jrsygrl0601 said:
Free will comes into play.

So the human mind is magical but a ball you hold in the air and let drop to the ground isn't?

jrsygrl0601 said:
Agreed?

No. I believe there is not a time when the human mind is not subject to cause, and effect.

jrsygrl0601 said:
LoLxD i never said my brain is so above the universe, you're overanalyzing my opinion. xD

To believe in free will is to believe your human mind is above the laws of the universe.
Free will is the rejection of the laws of the universe on the brain.

jrsygrl0601 said:

*please, this is just my opinion, LoL, why do you want to push it further? *

Because it's a discussion. Just like if you held the opinion that the Earth was flat, and said that it was just an opinion and why push it further, I would still respond until the person truly stopped responding and then move onto the next person.

And if the argument of the person was that that was their opinion and they were going to leave because this was just a bunch of pushing, I would stand only more confident in my beliefs.

Or an even better example, religion. Since religion is a personal opinion of the world, why talk and challenge the religious views of others?
Or what about politics, because some people won't have their opinions easily swayed, should politics not be talked about?

By the way, I believe if a belief can't be challenged, it's not worth having.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.

Oct 25, 2008 9:25 AM

#46

Offline

Mar 2008

1452

"And what caused you to open this thread? Your interest in the discussion. What is the discussion? A debate about free will. What is the principle of a debate? Being right or wrong. What feeling is associated with being correct, or "winning" a debate? Pride, a form of pleasure. What causes pride and pleasure? Hormones.

That's why you came into this thread, because you're a slave to your hormones. Just like everyone is. That's just how the brain works. (There's no need to post a "No, that's not why I came to this thread" type response, because whatever reason you had inevitably breaks down to the same thing.)"

LoLxD okayz, yes then? o.O? feel any better for those same reasons? =D

Oct 25, 2008 9:28 AM

#47

hikky

Offline

May 2008

1747

Baman said:
If we didn't have such delusions, most of us would no doubt descend into apathy and nihilism.

I've had no such luck! Somebody, quick- give me my delusions back!

Heh.

jrsygrl0601 said:
LoLxD okayz, yes then? o.O? feel any better for those same reasons? =D

Hmm, possibly. I think for me it's become a question of passing time messing around online being more pleasurable than doing things like being productive or getting a social life.. ;)

Oct 25, 2008 9:35 AM

#48

Offline

May 2008

31862

hikky said:
What do you mean, destroy it? There's nothing to destroy. It's based on a false premise: "God gave man freewill because he didn't want to create robots, you have to choose to love him etc etc.". I guess you wouldn't even call it an argument, more a (poor) response to the accusation of "If a god exists and hates evil, why would he/she/it create/allow evil?".

How can you possibly destroy the idea that's what Christians believe.
That is not a false premise at all, Christians DO believe that.

And largely the idea of free will in Western culture is BECAUSE of them.
Because the idea of determinism largely contradicts Christian thought.

hikky said:
Criminals are criminals not because of some mystic moral deviancy, they're criminals because of their brain composition, motivating factors, and their past experiences.

Exactly. Criminals are criminals because of their brain composition, motivating factors, and their past experiences, not free will. But many Christians would motivate the idea that they are that way their free will has decided some mystic moral deviancy.

Free will is the foundation for Christian moralism. If you create an idea like free will, then you can have an idea like sin.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.

Oct 25, 2008 9:42 AM

#49

asandari

Offline

Jul 2007

2338

Then suddenly society isn't deemed responsible for its criminals. (And the government is given the power over it, as trig pointed out with Ayn Rand philosophy earlier).

Of course, this leads into the questions of how we prevent, fix, or redeem criminals. (We certainly can't just let murderers do as they please...)
Which could lead to ethical questions about brainwashing, biological alterations of people's brains, or the ones I'm currently raising about punishment. Not to mention, this mentality taken seriously could lead to a lack of regard for consequences, worsening the situation.

Oct 25, 2008 9:44 AM

#50