| Jus wonderan what you would do in this situation. It's a question of morality, maybe? A really good friend of yours is very, very depressed, and has been for years. You stopped them from killing themselves in the past, actually. So one day, they message you about wanting to get drunk. They make it very clear that they would absolutely love to hang out with you tomorrow. For some reason, it's very important to them. So you agree. The next day, you meet up with them and their boyfriend/girlfriend. The boyfriend/girlfriend sticks around for a while, and then leaves, at which point you and your friend get very drunk. They then reveal to you that they are in fact, going to kill themselves that night. And that you are the only one they've told, and that they waited to be drunk to explain this, because they absolutely didn't want to be talked out of it, and they figured that out of anyone to tell, you would be the ideal one to tell because you wouldn't try to talk them out of it. So either A: You don't want to be selfish. This person obviously wants to die, they've tried in the past (you stopped them, but at this point it's clear that they will continue to live a miserable life). They've gone through years of therapy, and have been medicated, and all that jazz, and clearly it has had no effect. They are dead set on dying. So you decide to spend this last day with them, and make it absolutely wonderful for them before letting them on the bus to go downtown to ascend to the roof of a building and jump to their glorious demise :I B: You don't want them to be selfish. You stop them, again. Thinking about their mother, their father, their little brother and little sister, their boyfriend/girlfriend, all of their friends and everybody, how their death would destroy a lot of lives for a while. With them in mind, you attempt to talk your friend out of it, taking whatever means necessary to extend their life. Despite them obviously being tired of their own existence. I guess try to imagine being drunk, as this would impact your decision most likely. And then another answer as if you were sober? You might think that the answer is obvious, but I don't think it is. Think about it for more than a few moments, maybe And also suicide general: how you feel about suicide, etc. If something is inappropriate about this thread, I'm oblivious to it, but I'll leave it up to the mods. ------ edits: For some more clarification to the situation, as I doubt that people will go through the entire thread, I'll post some of my 'clarifying' posts here Instead of 'they' or 'she/he' i'm just going to use 'she'. When she tried to kill herself the first time, and you stopped her, her family and all her friends made it clear to her how important she is in their lives. She had considered the feelings of her family and friends before attempting suicide, but it was never quite as real as it was now that they had confronted her about it. So this might clarify what I'm talking about a couple posts up, where she absolutely knew that she would be destroying lives after killing herself the second time. It's kind of hard to explain, basically the second time, she was very clear headed about her decision to kill herself (of course before getting drunk) So this friend has had professional help. Lots and lots of it. For years and years. At one point, for a month or so, there was slight improvement. She had gotten a job and gotten into a relationship, and things were looking up, but this didn't last, etc. etc. the circle of trial medications etc. etc. And it was clear to her and you that she was still extremely depressed, and would not be getting better any time soon, and the future looked extremely bleak. When she got the job and boyfriend is when 'things were looking up' but as they started down again, having to work and having to give attention to a relationship were both just basically added stresses to the ultimate depression. And again, It is absolutely a very complex situation with tons of different interpretations towards the solution And this has become kind of a mess, but try to bare with it ;] |
sodabottleAug 18, 2012 6:02 AM
 |
| I'd tell them not to fucking do it, and the next time they're planning on killing themselves, don't tell me about it first. I don't want to be involved in that shit. I'd also tell them not to do it while they're drunk. And then I'd make sure they didn't do it while they were drunk. Well, as best as I could while being drunk myself. Knowing my alcohol tolerance, I'd be passed out before they could even tell me they were going to kill themselves. |
| Basically, this whole premise is absolutely unrealistic and full of contradictions. A person has: a) a boyfriend/girlfriend b) a really good friend (you) and still wants to kill themselves? Hard to believe, as long as both boyfriend/girlfriend and you aren't some kinda suicidal emo kids as well. Or jerks. But that would mean you weren't that good of a friend in the first place. Also, if you saved your friend from killing themselves in the past, why would they think you're not going to talk them out of it now? But anyways, the obvious answer is B. Doesn't matter if I'm drunk or sober, I maintain clear way of thinking either way. |
| I'd have to stop them. No way could I have that on my Concious, Knowing I just let a friend die. |
| As cruel, selfish and as much of a bastard I am, I'll go with B. I think that life must be lived for your own pleasure. Pleasuring yourself is the most important thing. Depression has reasons, by the way, and I think working on that is the best. Usually, people are depressed because of the community they live in, either because they're discriminated, they isolate themselves, they've lost somebody dear and they can't get over it etc. But mostly community. I'll just lend him a hand and teach him to be like me. Giving a fuck is nonsense, everybody is your tool to use for your own pleasure, until you find somebody of the opposite gender that actually knows how to keep you down, which most likely, be your dream girl. Nobody has such power, except yourself (and your dream girl). That's how I think, anyways. I mean, seriously, before you simply choose tho, you must understand why they're depressed and if they can be "cured". If they can't, then I'll choose A. Seriously, I will care for you if you're my best friend, and if you truly can't live with your life in any way, I will support you, even if I will maybe mourn you (with my mentality, I won't, that's selfish) you will have my full support if you truly think it's the best way. EDIT: Yes, that means I won't vote until the story actually is more... Detailed. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
drinkbeer said: my message to them is that people who have not faced utter despair should not be so quick to judge. There's no such thing as "utter despair". Only people believing in it. |
| I'll get her even more drunk so he can pass out, that will save me of the trouble for that day at least and leave her a note to cut that shit cause i don't have time going to funerals. |
MonadAug 18, 2012 6:55 AM
drinkbeer said: seishi-sama said: drinkbeer said: my message to them is that people who have not faced utter despair should not be so quick to judge. There's no such thing as "utter despair". Only people believing in it. don't be too quick to say that. life is long, unpredictable and complicated. there are really a lot of things beyond your control and imagination that could happen to you. there is such a thing as 'utter despair'. Yes, not everybody has a strong will... |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
drinkbeer said: seishi-sama said: drinkbeer said: my message to them is that people who have not faced utter despair should not be so quick to judge. There's no such thing as "utter despair". Only people believing in it. don't be too quick to say that. life is long, unpredictable and complicated. there are really a lot of things beyond your control and imagination that could happen to you. there is such a thing as 'utter despair'. Again, it's not about those "things beyond your control and imagination" but how you're taking them. And the worst thing that could happen to you is, well, death. I've been close to it once, and I know for sure I don't want to repeat the experience. Anything else is...insignificant. |
| I would also go with B. And it seems it actually works on suicidal people (I heard it a long time ago so it's not any proved fact, though); making them feel guilty of their decision and exposing them to the feelings of their family/friends/people who care about them, therefore reinforcing the selfishness of the act. It seems it makes them feel uncomfortable about the idea of dying, and what I want no matter how is to keep my friend alive at the end of the day. |
seishi-sama said: drinkbeer said: seishi-sama said: drinkbeer said: my message to them is that people who have not faced utter despair should not be so quick to judge. There's no such thing as "utter despair". Only people believing in it. don't be too quick to say that. life is long, unpredictable and complicated. there are really a lot of things beyond your control and imagination that could happen to you. there is such a thing as 'utter despair'. Again, it's not about those "things beyond your control and imagination" but how you're taking them. And the worst thing that could happen to you is, well, death. I've been close to it once, and I know for sure I don't want to repeat the experience. Anything else is...insignificant. Actually, we're afraid of death by instinct. After all, everybody dies, and death isn't bad or anything, we're also afraid of it because if you think it logically you feel nothing after death, that nothingness is impossible for us to comprehend, like, think of Horror Vacui, people are afraid of nothingness, there must be something there to fill the gap. Death is actually, better than life. Oh well, instincts and morality keeps us away from it. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| I think there's a J-Drama about this where there's option three :D |
| . |
| I voted A. Imposition of my values onto someone else, on a moral and theoretic basis, has no basis. Given the discussion and low likelihood of such things occurring(I'm on a faster route to suicide than any of my 'friends.') anyway, it seems that B sounds a lot more practical. I'd have no death on my hands, which is problematic with the law, and with association. Apparently it's difficult to consider the death of a billion Chinese on one's hands, but it sure is easy to feel the pain around funerals. seishi-sama said: Basically, this whole premise is absolutely unrealistic and full of contradictions. A person has: a) a boyfriend/girlfriend b) a really good friend (you) Oh, and QFT. EDIT: Shachou said: I think there's a J-Drama about this where there's option three :D If we're to bring in anime examples, why not Karpman said: Pain and agony are actually more 'universally' thought to be more of bad things, actually. One step further in semantics lands us to 'Bad things' are 'universally' more worse than Death.Yes, we are afraid of the unknown in this case, yet in other cases also attracted to it, but death is universally thought to be a bad thing and unless somebody dies for a year and then comes back and tells of his tale, it will stay that way |
ZmffkskemAug 18, 2012 4:41 AM
 「みんながいるからだ。」 － 棗鈴 |
| Damn I love this thread <3 People got own lives, sometimes different peoples close to them goes against them in some point. -> If someone really want get rid off life and it can't be helped with therapy or help of friends, why not let them end their life? I don't mean to be bad, but really think about it. You just keep helping guy/girl who can't be helped. It's useless in the end. (Of course not always, but most likely those persons had thinking long time to do suicide...) Most likely you do know my poll selection, if you read this. |
"A half moon, it has a dark half and a bright half, just like me…", Yuno Gasai |
| Absolutely b. I would tell him a speech like,stop being a wuss,and i would tell him that a lot of the time he has to fight for happiness,build up whatever shambles of self confidence he has and tell him that even if he does not value himself that there are other people who value him.Also i would stalk him for the rest of the night just in case,or leave him with someone else whom i would trust he would stalk him too. Also somene said not everyone has a strong will but I am absolutely sure that over time everyone can develop one. Also i am pretty sure 80% of us had at least once susicidal thoughts. And if you have unsolvable problems then ignore them or run from them or try again to fix them.Move to another town,burn the bridges...And most important be creative when trying to fix those problems.Did you know that children can improve their family relations just by fixing their grades?That way they can also build confidence. Also if that guy survives the night you must build up his confidence.Try jokes like:"How is the master plan to conquer the world proceeding?" or "Einstein?Compared to us he is nothing!".Trust me if you want to make him want to live you should not be afraid of making him arognant if you really care about him.He is better of as arogant than as depressive. Also find him a role model of a badass anime character...someone like Alucard or Dante or Roy Mustang or someone like that if he is into anime. The only way i would support suicide is well by sacrificing yourself for the lives of others. |
| "Efficiency is not king, efficacy is." Post a comment on my profile. Profile comments are fun. |
| Don't know what I'd do, I can suppose that I'd try to talk him out of it. |
| Karpman, psychological damage is a lot worse than physical damage. After all, it's what induces us to suicide most of the time. Am I right? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| I wouldnt try talking them out of it completely, because if the situation's like you described it, that probably wouldnt work. I'd try to talk them out of doing it on such short notice, instead I'd ask them to wait maybe another week or so and during that week we'd go out and have as much fun as possible to remind them that life is worth living. If after all that they'd still want to go through with it, I'd give up. |
obbsworld said: jal90 said: I would also go with B. And it seems it actually works on suicidal people (I heard it a long time ago so it's not any proved fact, though); making them feel guilty of their decision and exposing them to the feelings of their family/friends/people who care about them, therefore reinforcing the selfishness of the act. It seems it makes them feel uncomfortable about the idea of dying, and what I want no matter how is to keep my friend alive at the end of the day. Do you really think a person who has thought about suicide their entire life hadn't once considered the feelings of their family members and the fear of death? As harsh as it seems, I think that a person who tries to commit suicide doesn't consider the feelings of their family and friends and is being selfish. Of course it's another way of selfishness, less socially reprehensible, but deciding to kill yourself doesn't take into account the feelings of people who feel close to you. And as said, it seems this strategy works, because making them feel guilty of the idea of dying and leaving a strong depression in their loved ones can make them change the decision. In the end the objective is to keep them alive, nobody wants their friend to be dead the following day. |
seishi-sama said: Basically, this whole premise is absolutely unrealistic and full of contradictions It's not absolutely unrealistic as the exact situation happened in my life late 2011. And in a nutshell I chose 'A' seishi-sama said: A person has: a) a boyfriend/girlfriend b) a really good friend (you) and still wants to kill themselves? Hard to believe, as long as both boyfriend/girlfriend and you aren't some kinda suicidal emo kids as well. Or jerks. But that would mean you weren't that good of a friend in the first place. You must be joking seishi-sama said: Also, if you saved your friend from killing themselves in the past, why would they think you're not going to talk them out of it now? Maybe precisely because of the fact you've done it before, and they know you well enough to the point where they know you understand them and their condition completely. seishi-sama said: But anyways, the obvious answer is B. The "obvious answer" is not B, as I mentioned. If you weren't afraid of actual thought and strained your mind for more than a few seconds you might actually start to think about it. jal90 said: I would also go with B. And it seems it actually works on suicidal people (I heard it a long time ago so it's not any proved fact, though); making them feel guilty of their decision and exposing them to the feelings of their family/friends/people who care about them, therefore reinforcing the selfishness of the act. It seems it makes them feel uncomfortable about the idea of dying, and what I want no matter how is to keep my friend alive at the end of the day. Do you really think a person who has thought about suicide their entire life hadn't once considered the feelings of their family members and the fear of death? Karpman said: Also to OP, if you can, could you specify the situation a bit more, if you don't want to or it is too personal, you don't have to, but I am hanging a bit between the two options now. I can try, one second |
|
| I already answered, obbsword (seems there was a little mess with your post). |
Gaichi said: Damn I love this thread <3 People got own lives, sometimes different peoples close to them goes against them in some point. -> If someone really want get rid off life and it can't be helped with therapy or help of friends, why not let them end their life? I don't mean to be bad, but really think about it. You just keep helping guy/girl who can't be helped. It's useless in the end. (Of course not always, but most likely those persons had thinking long time to do suicide...) Most likely you do know my poll selection, if you read this. I agree with you all the way. Let the Angel Of Death take care of them. |
Karpman said: ...if given more professional attention and care, a lot of lives could be saved, but alas that doesn't happen. Even with professional care, sometimes it doesn't help. (Persons are just so lost their will to live, they don't find anything anymore) I think best what friends/family can do is... To make person remember how it was before "accident, psychological trauma whatever" happened and person become suicidal. -> If it become useless to do anything... "If someone really want get rid off life and it can't be helped with therapy or help of friends, why not let them end their life?" |
GaichiAug 18, 2012 5:24 AM
"A half moon, it has a dark half and a bright half, just like me…", Yuno Gasai |
| I can try to clarify the situation a bit. Instead of 'they' or 'she/he' i'm just going to use 'she'. So this friend has had professional help. Lots and lots of it. For years and years. At one point, for a month or so, there was slight improvement. She had gotten a job and gotten into a relationship, and things were looking up, but this didn't last, etc. etc. the circle of trial medications etc. etc. And it was clear to her and you that she was still extremely depressed, and would not be getting better any time soon, and the future looked extremely bleak. When she tried to kill herself the first time, and you stopped her, her family and all her friends made it clear to her how important she is in their lives. She had considered the feelings of her family and friends before attempting suicide, but it was never quite as real as it was now that they had confronted her about it. So this might clarify what I'm talking about a couple posts up, where she absolutely knew that she would be destroying lives after killing herself the second time. It's kind of hard to explain but maybe that helps a bit? |
|
| It's surely A for me now. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
jal90 said: I already answered, obbsword (seems there was a little mess with your post). Yeah sorry, I deleted the original and I was too late ;_; But yeah, that may be true for a lot of suicide cases, but I feel like if someone is serious about killing themselves, they would have thought of everything, all the pros and cons, the positives and negatives. It's a huge decision and it's not to be taken lightly, so I'm sure that most realize the impact they will have on their family and friends. |
|
obbsworld said: jal90 said: I already answered, obbsword (seems there was a little mess with your post). Yeah sorry, I deleted the original and I was too late ;_; But yeah, that may be true for a lot of suicide cases, but I feel like if someone is serious about killing themselves, they would have thought of everything, all the pros and cons, the positives and negatives. It's a huge decision and it's not to be taken lightly, so I'm sure that most realize the impact they will have on their family and friends. Well, it's quite impossible she thought of everything. On paper, I think I'd understand her and support her. But in reality, what if she does not understand what she's doing...? That's the thing. This situation is just too one sided. It's too easy to respond to this now. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: obbsworld said: jal90 said: I already answered, obbsword (seems there was a little mess with your post). Yeah sorry, I deleted the original and I was too late ;_; But yeah, that may be true for a lot of suicide cases, but I feel like if someone is serious about killing themselves, they would have thought of everything, all the pros and cons, the positives and negatives. It's a huge decision and it's not to be taken lightly, so I'm sure that most realize the impact they will have on their family and friends. Well, it's quite impossible she thought of everything. On paper, I think I'd understand her and support her. But in reality, what if she does not understand what she's doing...? That's the thing. This situation is just too one sided. It's too easy to respond to this now. Lol I'm trying, also this isn't about the main scenario, it's just a side discussion I think. But yes of course they can't think of EVERYTHING. But at least the fact that the lives of their family and friends will be impacted is obvious to them, and this is where the 'selfishness' is, in deciding to off themselves despite that. |
|
obbsworld said: I can try to clarify the situation a bit. Instead of 'they' or 'she/he' i'm just going to use 'she'. So this friend has had professional help. Lots and lots of it. For years and years. At one point, for a month or so, there was slight improvement. She had gotten a job and gotten into a relationship, and things were looking up, but this didn't last, etc. etc. the circle of trial medications etc. etc. And it was clear to her and you that she was still extremely depressed, and would not be getting better any time soon, and the future looked extremely bleak. When she tried to kill herself the first time, and you stopped her, her family and all her friends made it clear to her how important she is in their lives. She had considered the feelings of her family and friends before attempting suicide, but it was never quite as real as it was now that they had confronted her about it. So this might clarify what I'm talking about a couple posts up, where she absolutely knew that she would be destroying lives after killing herself the second time. It's kind of hard to explain but maybe that helps a bit? Yes, of course it helps. Very nice example. The fact is that the strategy to follow changes depending on the case, the social relationships of the person who is going to commit suicide, the mental (in)stability, the religious factor, the family pressure, the medical situation (cases of euthanasia, for example), etc. That's why one has to choose the different strategies to avoid this final event to happen. It seems that negative reinforcement on the idea of suicide works well enough for many cases, not for everybody, but it would be the strategy I would use in case one of my friends took this decision. When something like one's life is in danger it's useless to show qualms. Going to the specific case you mentioned, I quite honestly don't know what could I do. Maybe what that person needs is to find support, that is, a positive take, but anyway, and even if she knows that she would be destroying lives, it is pretty likely that she is absorbed by her problems and therefore that the previous strategy works again. |
obbsworld said: in a nutshell I chose 'A' Yup she killed herself that night. But as I tried to describe in the description of the choice 'A' I made sure that it was a wonderful night, we had a lot of fun, and a fantastic goodbye that I'll never forget. And watching her get on the bus was more or less like watching your alien friend stepping onto their spaceship and going back to their homeplanet ;] |
|
obbsworld said: obbsworld said: in a nutshell I chose 'A' Yup she killed herself that night. But as I tried to describe in the description of the choice 'A' I made sure that it was a wonderful night, we had a lot of fun, and a fantastic goodbye that I'll never forget. And watching her get on the bus was more or less like watching your alien friend stepping onto their spaceship and going back to their homeplanet ;] Well, she made her choice, you supported her. Either one of them, in my opinion, is a good choice. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
jal90 said: Yes, of course it helps. Very nice example. The fact is that the strategy to follow changes depending on the case, the social relationships of the person who is going to commit suicide, the mental (in)stability, the religious factor, the family pressure, the medical situation (cases of euthanasia, for example), etc. That's why one has to choose the different strategies to avoid this final event to happen. It seems that negative reinforcement on the idea of suicide works well enough for many cases, not for everybody, but it would be the strategy I would use in case one of my friends took this decision. When something like one's life is in danger it's useless to show qualms. Going to the specific case you mentioned, I quite honestly don't know what could I do. Maybe what that person needs is to find support, that is, a positive take, but anyway, and even if she knows that she would be destroying lives, it is pretty likely that she is absorbed by her problems and therefore that the previous strategy works again. It is absolutely a very complex situation with tons of different interpretations towards the solution And you're right. The negative reinforcement does work, as in this situation, it worked the first time. But once it's been used, it can't be used again. |
|
| @Karpman He then said she lost that. After that she thought of suicide again. But, wait... Isn't this Suicide assistance? Can't you go to jail for this? (asking because I'm curious) |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| I don't mind if they kill themselves, but on the other hand it would be nice to see them happy again if possible. |
 Behold of my awesomeness~ controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted. But my feels. |
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