| honestly, i don't get what was going on at all, what was those lights that tomoya and Ushio sees throughout the show and whats that illusionary world and the thing i want to know the most is how they all come back alive at the last ep! |
wakka9ca said:"The endless debate between fans and haters... is totaly pointless"  |
| Key is fucktard as a story writer. He didn't have the brains to do something actually great so they raped the whole story by undoing everything. If people complain, Key says you didn't get it's deeper meaning and symbolism. Like in School Days, it's all about morality and deep love. Some sarcasm there btw. Fact is, there is no symbolism, there is nothing to get. Clannad After Story is one of the most overrated (yes, I used that word) anime series ever made. Rated high by people who prefer character happiness over story and plot. By those who thought they got it while there was nothing to get. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
Karhu said: Fact is, there is no symbolism, there is nothing to get. Clannad After Story is one of the most overrated (yes, I used that word) anime series ever made. Rated high by people who prefer character happiness over story and plot. By those who thought they got it while there was nothing to get. i have to agree, i would rate it 5 and rate school days the same |
wakka9ca said:"The endless debate between fans and haters... is totaly pointless" |
| Yeah,I was confused too. |
 Changed my sig without knowing bbcode was down. Wahhh D: |
Karhu said: Rated high by people who prefer character happiness over story and plot. By those who thought they got it while there was nothing to get. No. I rated it a 9 for the story before the last episode.... |
Sir_Lexa said: Karhu said: Rated high by people who prefer character happiness over story and plot. By those who thought they got it while there was nothing to get. No. I rated it a 9 for the story before the last episode.... Well, when I was watching the last episodes I thought of giving a 9, ending completely ruined the whole show, literally it did. Therefore 4/10 from me. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
| Most people whom I have asked why they Clannad AS so much and their respond was "Clannad AS is the best anime ever because it made me cry" Here are some reviews on other KEY's works http://myanimelist.net/reviews.php?id=30579 http://myanimelist.net/reviews.php?id=27169 |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
| I thought it was pretty good. Maybe it was because CLANNAD was one of my first non-mainstream anime (is that even right to say?). Well, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe CLANNAD was based off of a Visual Novel and so Key wanted to include the multiple endings but figuring out a way to do so in an anime is difficult. So...they basically showed one ending which happened to be the sad ending where Ushio died...but then they included the other ending right after in which Ushio lives by collecting all those orbs. If you're asking where the orbs were in the anime...I guess there was one when Ushio's dad (i forgot his name) cried and hugged her. Can't remember well but I think they showed like the orbs floating all around them and then reversing time. I mean, yeah it was pretty weird how they had the whole drama set in stone in a realistic manner and then decided to say it was all just a "test" or what not. I don't think that's generally bad though. A happy ending is what makes viewers happy for the most part. |
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| Clannad (also Kanon and Air) is a game adaptation and I really can't understand your flaming towards producers when they just wanted to stick to the story of the game and make a really good job at it. In After Story as far as I know its not like in FSN when they mixed possible scenarios which is a risky idea (they managed to avoid or cover plotholes more less - simplified ofc and with new elements but producers can always say that: they made it for someone who not necessarily played vn could get the idea whats going on and why in general). Clannad also is directed for people who not necessarily played the game but after story even sticks to the game as far as I know. Like I said in Clannad they merged possible routes (but avoided the ones - with Tomoyo and Kyou - which in game resulted with Tomoya not being with Nagisa). In After Story (the game) there was no "if" you end up happily assuming you have done everything right but "when". Thats why Tomoya goes through hardships and pain but if he has done good things he gets his reward (ofc he doesnt know about it beforehand). "There was a legend in this city that if you do good things you can expect a small miracle to happen" - it might not be accurate quote but something like that. That miracle for Tomoya was having a happy life with his family. The hardships pain he is going through are also important, so that he can realise what is important for him. And those light orbs are sort of catalyst for a girl in illusionary world to make that small miracle, so that she can and want to make it, so Ushio can live her life with a family that will be good for her. I don't get the point when someone says "ending ruined everything", "they should have left it at ep 18 or 21 because now it's a deus ex machina happy ending". Actually it isnt, there are things in life we arent aware of or we don't know we have any influence on them but they happen or may happen. If you cross a street thousand times you may or may not be killed in car accident. If someone says "I don't like happy endings" - thats ok but I don't think it's a reason to hate it or say this anime is stupid or producers wasted the potential the anime had because they were just sticking to the story of the game, not to mention it is better to have a feeling that your hard work an doing good things is a right thing to do. It's like with existence of God. Someone said something like that: "If the God didn't exist, we should create one because generally having one is a good thing." |
Linaeris said: Clannad (also Kanon and Air) is a game adaptation and I really can't understand your flaming towards producers when they just wanted to stick to the story of the game and make a really good job at it. In After Story as far as I know its not like in FSN when they mixed possible scenarios which is a risky idea (they managed to avoid or cover plotholes more less - simplified ofc and with new elements but producers can always say that: they made it for someone who not necessarily played vn could get the idea whats going on and why in general). Clannad also is directed for people who not necessarily played the game but after story even sticks to the game as far as I know. Like I said in Clannad they merged possible routes (but avoided the ones - with Tomoyo and Kyou - which in game resulted with Tomoya not being with Nagisa). In After Story (the game) there was no "if" you end up happily assuming you have done everything right but "when". Thats why Tomoya goes through hardships and pain but if he has done good things he gets his reward (ofc he doesnt know about it beforehand). "There was a legend in this city that if you do good things you can expect a small miracle to happen" - it might not be accurate quote but something like that. That miracle for Tomoya was having a happy life with his family. The hardships pain he is going through are also important, so that he can realise what is important for him. And those light orbs are sort of catalyst for a girl in illusionary world to make that small miracle, so that she can and want to make it, so Ushio can live her life with a family that will be good for her. I don't get the point when someone says "ending ruined everything", "they should have left it at ep 18 or 21 because now it's a deus ex machina happy ending". Actually it isnt, there are things in life we arent aware of or we don't know we have any influence on them but they happen or may happen. If you cross a street thousand times you may or may not be killed in car accident. If someone says "I don't like happy endings" - thats ok but I don't think it's a reason to hate it or say this anime is stupid or producers wasted the potential the anime had because they were just sticking to the story of the game, not to mention it is better to have a feeling that your hard work an doing good things is a right thing to do. It's like with existence of God. Someone said something like that: "If the God didn't exist, we should create one because generally having one is a good thing." Best explanation of Clannad I've ever seen haha. |
Changed my sig without knowing bbcode was down. Wahhh D: |
Linaeris said: I don't get the point when someone says "ending ruined everything", "they should have left it at ep 18 or 21 because now it's a deus ex machina happy ending". Actually it isnt, there are things in life we arent aware of or we don't know we have any influence on them but they happen or may happen. If you cross a street thousand times you may or may not be killed in car accident. If someone says "I don't like happy endings" - thats ok but I don't think it's a reason to hate it or say this anime is stupid or producers wasted the potential the anime had because they were just sticking to the story of the game, not to mention it is better to have a feeling that your hard work an doing good things is a right thing to do. It's like with existence of God. Someone said something like that: "If the God didn't exist, we should create one because generally having one is a good thing." Are you kidding me? Your whole writing is nothing more than bullshit trying desperately to cover the plot holes and Deus Ex Machina usage. Face it, Clannad After Story's ending is absolutely horrible in the name of story line and script writing. Also, it's not about how person likes about happy endings in general, but the way those are created and executed. Any ending is decent as long as it's well-written. That's where Clannad After Story fails miserably. Looks like you need even God's help to defend Clannad After Story, I admit, it might be impossible task to do without. Linaeris said: "they should have left it at ep 18 or 21 because now it's a deus ex machina happy ending". Actually it isnt, there are things in life we arent aware of or we don't know we have any influence on them but they happen or may happen. You so silly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
| So you're saying you rate a show a 4 instead of a 9 even though you liked the biggest part of the anime, but disliked the ending? In my opinion that makes even less sense. Sure the ending was probably not the best. But seeing how you wanted to rate it a 9, the ending must have been extremely horrible in your opinion to lower it that much because you probably enjoyed it until the ending. I didn't really like the ending either but I still rated it high seeing how my overall enjoyment was extremely high. |
| ^ Once upon a time there was a guy who wrote an essay about an important object he could not throw away because of personal reasons. Story was so touching that teacher cried while reading it. That guy would have been best in the whole class, BUT, last sentence of the story was "I threw it away anyway." He got an F. End of story. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
Appel_stroop said: Well, that depends if we'd rate it a 9 based on the overall enjoyment or something else. So you're saying you rate a show a 4 instead of a 9 even though you liked the biggest part of the anime, but disliked the ending? In my opinion that makes even less sense. Sure the ending was probably not the best. But seeing how you wanted to rate it a 9, the ending must have been extremely horrible in your opinion to lower it that much because you probably enjoyed it until the ending. I didn't really like the ending either but I still rated it high seeing how my overall enjoyment was extremely high. At least in my case, most of the series was pretty meh, and would not have risen over a 6 at the very best, but then all of a sudden Nagisa dies of mysterious space AIDS (though not so much a surprise from KEY). Which in itself would be pretty lame and cliché, but the subsequent interactions between Tomoya and Ushio were really great imo, and it was both touching and interesting to see a anime handle such an unusual subject. So even if the rest was pretty meh, that character development in the end made it rise out of the mud and would have at least netted it a 8 on my part. But the sudden happy end rendered all the previous character development inconsequential and ruined the whole theme behind it, removing any impact it had. And while I wouldn't always turn down the rating so much from a bad ending, I certainly would in a case like this, where the only thing that made it great is ruined by it. |
| OK I guess Karhu needs a hard way. As you may possibly know: It is an anime, which means not everything has to be like in our world. Most anime are like that. In almost every anime the world has some "rules" which may be different in some way than the real world (some sort of fantastic elements): spaceships can fly through many galaxies, there are parallel worlds, dreams within a dream, protagonist gets some sort of special power, shinigami can end your existence by sneezing, there are vampires or you can fly upside down on a broomstick while breathing fire right to the face of a monster with tentacles which is fighting ninetailed beast out of boredom. You can't explain all events in the world of anime by applying logic of the real world. And as far as I can read: "Deus ex machina - is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object." Which says unexpected intervention of something NEW and as far as I know the girl in the illusionary world as well as orbs of light weren't anything new in the story at that point. The ending was executed very well, it maybe wasn't literally explained but there just wasn't a need for it (you have some room for your own interpretation which is fine). You mentioned something about symbolism. Maybe not straight in the face but there is quite a few, just use your imagination. People saying that evangelion is full of symbolism, true but they are either obvious or religious which may be offensive for viewer's feelings or intelligence. Clannad is not the anime where you have extreme plot twists but more like events happening. It's a character driven anime. Most dramas plots can be summarized like this: something good happens, something bad happens, something bad happens, something even worse happens, something good happens... (bad are usually illness, death, separation, lost faith...) Tomoya is doing what he thinks is best for him, his family, trying to be a better husband, father, son. There are events he may have not any influence on but he is trying his best and for that he gets a reward. If you give 4 instead of 9 just because you didn't like or understand the ending that's your choice but don't say it has ruined the story beacuse that is simply not true. Some people might prefer Nagisa and Ushio as dead I like them alive. |
Linaeris said: OK I guess Karhu needs a hard way. As you may possibly know: It is an anime, which means not everything has to be like in our world. Most anime are like that. In almost every anime the world has some "rules" which may be different in some way than the real world (some sort of fantastic elements): spaceships can fly through many galaxies, there are parallel worlds, dreams within a dream, protagonist gets some sort of special power, shinigami can end your existence by sneezing, there are vampires or you can fly upside down on a broomstick while breathing fire right to the face of a monster with tentacles which is fighting ninetailed beast out of boredom. You can't explain all events in the world of anime by applying logic of the real world. Yes, but as you also might know, anime is based to script, and it's executed by director. What I'm expecting is the anime to create and follow it's own rules and world what are once again coming from the script. I don't expect to see realism and anime fitting to our world, but well-written scripts. Anime can be anything, but when it tries to be something which it is not, then it's not pretty. Linaeris said: And as far as I can read: "Deus ex machina - is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object." Which says unexpected intervention of something NEW and as far as I know the girl in the illusionary world as well as orbs of light weren't anything new in the story at that point. What Key does is he makes those elements mysterious as possible, so basically everything is possible for them to do. Script is not well-written when you can characters back from the death, undo it all - everything and without any proper explanations. If you can't tell me how the other episodes were driving the story to point where the happenings doesn't exist anymore and how exactly those two worlds existed to make it all good for the characters, then I can't possibly think that the ending is done in right way. How on earth is this not a Deus Ex machina?: Baman said: But the sudden happy end rendered all the previous character development inconsequential and ruined the whole theme behind it, removing any impact it had. If you say because of the mysterious world which can be anything it wants, then you have misunderstood the meaning of Deus Ex Machina. Linaeris said: The ending was executed very well, it maybe wasn't literally explained but there just wasn't a need for it (you have some room for your own interpretation which is fine). You mentioned something about symbolism. Maybe not straight in the face but there is quite a few, just use your imagination. People saying that evangelion is full of symbolism, true but they are either obvious or religious which may be offensive for viewer's feelings or intelligence. Use your imagination is what the script says when it has holes and flaws. What I say to the writer is; use your brains and get the script well-written. If you look it into that way, then every unlogical, magical and Deus Ex Machina- type of a plot twist can be explained by that method. "Just use your imagination." It's the script writer who should use imagination and get the script well-written. Kara no Kyoukai, Serial Experiments Lain and Eva has excellent symbolism. What Clannad After Story has is the mysterious world created by Key. If you see there some actual symbolism, then please do give me an example of some sort. I'm really interested in that concept in anime. Linaeris said: Clannad is not the anime where you have extreme plot twists but more like events happening. It's a character driven anime. Most dramas plots can be summarized like this: something good happens, something bad happens, something bad happens, something even worse happens, something good happens... (bad are usually illness, death, separation, lost faith...) Tomoya is doing what he thinks is best for him, his family, trying to be a better husband, father, son. There are events he may have not any influence on but he is trying his best and for that he gets a reward. I understand, but the reward part is the problem like stated. Linaeris said: If you give 4 instead of 9 just because you didn't like or understand the ending that's your choice but don't say it has ruined the story beacuse that is simply not true. Some people might prefer Nagisa and Ushio as dead I like them alive. Like you choose to give it your rating just because you think you did get something or liked it. Ending ruined the show, think otherwise if you decide to deny my points. + You already said to use imagination. When you are using just imagination to explain the parts, then it's you who didn't get it, not me. And again. Preferring something is pretty much bullshit. "Lets bring the characters back to life, undo everything and make happy ending, just because people prefer that." Clifhanger state would be great when comparing to this. Connecting those two worlds and left viewers option to decide which "time-line" to follow. If happy ending is seriously needed, then it should be done in right way. Baman said: And while I wouldn't always turn down the rating so much from a bad ending, I certainly would in a case like this, where the only thing that made it great is ruined by it. Yeah. At least the king of MAL does what I do, can't complain. |
KarhuDec 8, 2011 3:00 PM
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
| the way i see this is either key can't make something that makes scence or no one can adapt key's VN's for s***, i say that because i just watched air and i can't even be bothered finishing it because they just can't explain things properly and the last arc was so rushed, couldn't be bothered finishing this anime either because everything was so confusing and Karhu, i'm liking ur posts a lot in this tread |
wakka9ca said:"The endless debate between fans and haters... is totaly pointless" |
| This may still keep us in a stalemate position and may sound a little "Battlerish" or look like overinterpretation cause I watched Clannad AS some time ago. I am far from emposing my point of view to others. As you said before they (I am only refering to the anime cause I haven't played the game, just have a sort of general idea of it) tend to keep the fantastic elements as mysterious as possible. True but maybe for a good reason or because it's the best way to describe it assuming that they wanted to avoid showing some straight stuff (for example we never get to see Tomoya and Nagisa kissing). It may sound like keeping a possible backdoor way out of any situation but I think that's only partially true as I will try to explain. We have light orbs and we have so called "Illusionary World" which are fantastic elements. Orbs of light are quite obvious and I think there isn't much to it besides that they symbolise good deeds and wishes and are sort of catalyst and connection between normal world and so called "Illusionary World". In "Illusioanry World" we have a girl and a robot - Ushio and Tomoya. The girl can do many things, robot can't. Maybe because the "world" that "Illusionary World" tries to reflect is in fact mysterious for a normal person or that different people might imagine it in a different ways. The "Illusionary world" is changing as events happening in a story occur and it brings to mind many things like: thoughts, wishes, consciousness, existence, mother's womb, emptiness... It was told that when you do good things you may expect a small miracle to happen (in Tomoya's case it is a happy life with his family which is a first glance conclusion...). But if we think about it, that is not a miracle. It may be a result of a small miracle, Tomoya's wish. To fulfil that wish he needed a healthy born daughter. However I think in episode 15 he gets to know that there might be complications with Nagisa's health and she might not be able to survive. Nagisa told him that she still wants the baby to be born. Tomoya accepts that decision and does eveything he can to help her but at some point he starts having doubts and even thinks that maybe it would be better if he never met Nagisa as well as forgets or doesn't realise that he still despise his father and hates the city. Ushio may not want to live in that world... but gives Tomoya a chance. She "shows" him/makes him realise how his life would look like if she would have been born where his doubts overtook him leading to life in grief and despair. Even if after a lot of time (was it 5 years?) he would start his life with Ushio and even reconcile with his father, the grief and emptiness would sooner or later get to him and his daughter because Nagisa died. That is not how a family should be. Then Tomoya is shown again in a point where he can decide whether or not he wants to be with Nagisa and doesn't have any doubts and regrets. Ushio is born, Nagisa survives/wakes up and we get to see a sea of lights symbolizing occurence of the small miracle. |
Karhu said: Sir_Lexa said: Karhu said: Rated high by people who prefer character happiness over story and plot. By those who thought they got it while there was nothing to get. No. I rated it a 9 for the story before the last episode.... Well, when I was watching the last episodes I thought of giving a 9, ending completely ruined the whole show, literally it did. Therefore 4/10 from me. Bringing an anime down 5 points just because of one episode is completely stupid. I ignored the last episode and gave it a 10, should have been a 9 though as 10 doesn't exist. |
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| ohh yeah.. right...right.. *gigle* some people like it...some people hate it.. thats anime for you sir. don't like it? don't watch it.... its pretty simple that baby with a trollface mask on it know it.. LOL |
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gregory003 said: Karhu said: Sir_Lexa said: Karhu said: Rated high by people who prefer character happiness over story and plot. By those who thought they got it while there was nothing to get. No. I rated it a 9 for the story before the last episode.... Well, when I was watching the last episodes I thought of giving a 9, ending completely ruined the whole show, literally it did. Therefore 4/10 from me. Bringing an anime down 5 points just because of one episode is completely stupid. I ignored the last episode and gave it a 10, should have been a 9 though as 10 doesn't exist. No, that's 100% logical way to think in this case. "I ignored the last episode." Well that's just bullshit. Ignoring facts is nothing but retarded/fanboyish thing to do. I don't rate anime based to enjoyment, but quality. Therefore Clannad After Story doesn't deserve more. Also read what Baman wrote earlier. @Linaeris Your last post doesn't change anything. Hardly based to facts and logic, but imagination and "maybe" words, so I won't even argue about those. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
| Oh God, CAS and DEM. Again. I probably should write a blog post about this and get over this, but since I feel free today(hima da ne...) when I'm actually not, and that I actually do love CAS, I will defend CAS again. Karhu said: Yes, but as you also might know, anime is based to script, and it's executed by director. What I'm expecting is the anime to create and follow it's own rules and world what are once again coming from the script. I don't expect to see realism and anime fitting to our world, but well-written scripts. Anime can be anything, but when it tries to be something which it is not, then it's not pretty. "Well-written" doesn't mean a thing in this world. Do you find War and Peace well-written? What about High Fantasies like the scapegoat that is Lord of the Rings? A billionaire maker: Harry Potter? Are those well-written? Honestly, I don't really know, and I don't really care. All I know is that there is some form of words, arranged in some manner(i.e. chapters, pages, paragraphs), which even more basically consists of latin alphabet that form words of the English Language. Well-written? There's absolutely NOTHING that determines how well-written the work is. The only thing I know of is grammar and style of execution, the former which is not up to the author(except it is, see Gadsby or something) The latter is up to the author and of course subject to your interpretation, which of course isn't good. (No wait, even better, is Gadsby well-written?) Karhu said: What Key does is he makes those elements mysterious as possible, so basically everything is possible for them to do. Script is not well-written when you can characters back from the death, undo it all - everything and without any proper explanations. If you can't tell me how the other episodes were driving the story to point where the happenings doesn't exist anymore and how exactly those two worlds existed to make it all good for the characters, then I can't possibly think that the ending is done in right way. How on earth is this not a Deus Ex machina?: Baman said: But the sudden happy end rendered all the previous character development inconsequential and ruined the whole theme behind it, removing any impact it had. I'm not sure if you've read the VN, but I will assume anyway. According to the VN, the TE happens IFF all light orbs are collected. My interpretation(which you most likely will ignore anyway) is that this is the exact requirement and explanation. It's not proper, but it's not non-existent. As far as I know, wish-fulfilment in general is sudden. (If possible, please show one instance where A has no causal link with B and you can call that good, because that's DEM basically) That's exactly the nature of a wish fulfilled: sudden, drastic, overwhelming and most of all:omnipotent. Further more, in the end it also boils down to you hating DEM, which I don't exactly blame because it's also cool to hate DEM. It's not cool to hate people dying due to a stabbing(totally a natural occurrence i.e. A->B) but when the person stabbed has like the Elixir of Immortality it becomes DEM and ridiculous, causing people to lose 'logic'(Bullshit, it doesn't really exist, A->B material implication isn't even there!) and whatnot. AFAIK, creative works are better judged with judgement than with reader-induced logic, because it's the same as reading Chinese with Japanese. It doesn't work. It works as well as reading Afrikaans with English. It doesn't work. Karhu said: The mysterious world serves as the God. If you say because of the mysterious world which can be anything it wants, then you have misunderstood the meaning of Deus Ex Machina. Except in this case, your God starts from the first episode, first opening, first ending, source material, etc... It's not sudden, and totally not out of the machine or air. Karhu said: Use your imagination is what the script says when it has holes and flaws. What I say to the writer is; use your brains and get the script well-written. If you look it into that way, then every unlogical, magical and Deus Ex Machina- type of a plot twist can be explained by that method. "Just use your imagination." It's the script writer who should use imagination and get the script well-written. Indeed, true. Everything can be said to be this. A person stabbed can be imagined to be stabbed in the wrong place(missed the heart 2 inches? Use your imagination) or suddenly turns android. Thus, he doesn't die. Karhu said: I haven't watched KnK,SLE or eva, but I can almost tell I'm not even interested. It's as good as telling me Angels & Demons has symbolism(Dan Brown is probably a whole other topic(s)) because I don't really care.Kara no Kyoukai, Serial Experiments Lain and Eva has excellent symbolism. What Clannad After Story has is the mysterious world created by Key. If you see there some actual symbolism, then please do give me an example of some sort. I'm really interested in that concept in anime. AFAIK, CLANNAD has a familial theme. It's stuck with this theme for all arcs. I don't see the theme-breaking as said by Baman earlier. In essence, symbolism can be anything, because anything can mean anything else. I guess 'good symbolism' is more 'objective' than 'well-written' in that, while both can be consensus driven, 'good symbolism' can be biologically and/or psychologically connected.(i.e. Synesthesia, which as far as I know isn't utilised by essays today... (Other than the length? War and Peace? IDK, Synesthesia is a psychological concept I have almost no idea in terms of effect and cause.)) Karhu said: Clifhanger state would be great when comparing to this. Connecting those two worlds and left viewers option to decide which "time-line" to follow. If happy ending is seriously needed, then it should be done in right way. Personal preferences, it seems. I would use the word 'would' to suggest uncertainty, and definitely the word 'great' to suggest preference. Suggestions suggestions, just my interpretations. As for the actual OP: http://www.riuva.com/?p=1388 I'm guessing I'm too lazy to type my interpretation, but my typing is as meaningful as another discussion on whether Lelouch died. (He didn't, as in that the Sun expanded to a red giant, engulfed the Earth while Halley's Comet crashed into Earth on the other side, wiping out the entire human population on Earth in 2.212212 hours. Then he died.) Also, more interpretations is generally better. Because humans love producing trash for others to read. And no, I don't know of aliens producing trash for us to read. I have not heard of an Arecibo Reply, so http://www.google.com/search?q=CLANNAD+ENDING+MEANING |
 「みんながいるからだ。」 － 棗鈴 |
Zmffkskem said: Well-written? There's absolutely NOTHING that determines how well-written the work is. True, but my point was the opposite. Not what is well-written, but what definitely is not well-written. " Script is not well-written when you can bring characters back from the death, undo it all - everything and without proper explanations." And like Baman stated; Baman said: But the sudden happy end rendered all the previous character development inconsequential and ruined the whole theme behind it, removing any impact it had. And while I wouldn't always turn down the rating so much from a bad ending, I certainly would in a case like this, where the only thing that made it great is ruined by it. Zmffkskem said: I'm not sure if you've read the VN, but I will assume anyway. No, I haven't and all the extra parts and explanation it gives has nothing to do with actual quality of CAS' anime adaption. Therefore those shouldn't effect to the rating of the series. I do understand the point when you are explaining how it is possible to analyze the ending but that's it. Zmffkskem said: In essence, symbolism can be anything, because anything can mean anything else. Yes, if looking it in that way then there is possible to found symbolism in every effing place you look. E.g. in painting it could be how hard the lines are. That's why I used term actual symbolism. Some times things just exist and some times those are made to exist. People tend to read symbolism differently so it's quality is hard to judge, but CAS, it's quite obvious that's it's not based to/filled with any type of a symbolism. Zmffkskem said: Karhu said: Clifhanger state would be great when comparing to this. Personal preferences, it seems. I would use the word 'would' to suggest uncertainty, and definitely the word 'great' to suggest preference. Opinion ofc. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
| There are a few "maybe" words because of things that aren't shown literally and like I said this is one of possible interpretations, furthermore I am not saying this has to be like that just because I say so. If anime makes you think it's generally positive thing. You said that you don't rate an anime based to enjoyment, but quality. That's your choice, but define quality then because it may mean many things and most times it's just enjoyment. It can be hard to objectively rate technical aspects (graphics, sound), not to mention characters, plot, pace, shock value, idea, overall feelings, expectations, some other stuff because of different tastes. If someone says: "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" it's far more objective even if it's an individual matter of that someone. Why? Because it caused a reaction which any other anime could not. A reaction which doesn't occur willingly. |
Linaeris said: If someone says: "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" it's far more objective even if it's an individual matter of that someone. If it's an individual matter, then it's subjective. (o, hai, do I sound liek Daisuki-chan? :o :D) "It's the best becouse it made me cry" is the most idiotic phrase I've ever read on these forums - too bad it's repeated very often :| - "Saving Private Ryan is the best movie ever, becouse it made me cry!!11" :P While it seriously did, but I wouldn't consider it the best. Sorry, but if you give scores based on "did it make me cry?/how loud?" than you're retarded pussbag. |
orzel286 said: Linaeris said: If someone says: "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" it's far more objective even if it's an individual matter of that someone. If it's an individual matter, then it's subjective. (o, hai, do I sound liek Daisuki-chan? :o :D) "It's the best becouse it made me cry" is the most idiotic phrase I've ever read on these forums - too bad it's repeated very often :| - "Saving Private Ryan is the best movie ever, becouse it made me cry!!11" :P While it seriously did, but I wouldn't consider it the best. Sorry, but if you give scores based on "did it make me cry?/how loud?" than you're retarded pussbag. and here comes another Douchebags trololol Noobsies are just Noobies LOL Its not just make you cry... It will tell you how a MAN Life is... unless if you are some stupid Douchebags *cough* and your brain even nothing than like shrimps brain To me.. its even at the same level as Gurren Laggan Prdon me sir ;)) *cough* |
| |
| @ Orzel286 What I wrote was that saying "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" it's far more objective even if it's an individual matter of that someone, than if someone says: "Clannad is a high quality anime". Reading and understanding doesn't always go together as I see. "Clannad is the best because it made me cry." is a strict sentence. I am not saying it has to be the only one or best (for someone might be stupid) determinant if an anime is good but it is objective measurment. If you claim that anime is good if made you laugh for at least two hours and bad if it made you laugh for less than 2 hours it might not be the best determinant but it is objective measurment. You said: "If you give scores based on "did it make me cry?/how loud?" than you're retarded pussbag." is a strict sentence. There are people that will not agree with that as a best way to determine if someone is a retarded pussbag but using it you can do it objectively. Some may as well think that you are behaving like desperate teenager. |
Linaeris said: What I wrote was that saying "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" it's far more objective even if it's an individual matter of that someone, No, it isn't? than if someone says: "Clannad is a high quality anime". HOW is crying more objective than "it's a quality anime?" Crying is based on your emotions, while opinions need to be backed up mostly by facts. "Clannad is the best because it made me cry." is a strict sentence. I am not saying it has to be the only one or best (for someone might be stupid) determinant if an anime is good but it is objective measurment. If you claim that anime is good if made you laugh for at least two hours and bad if it made you laugh for less than 2 hours it might not be the best determinant but it is objective measurment. Personal feelings are not abjective at all - one person might laugh at sight of beheaded hamster, while the other one might start crying. See? You said: "If you give scores based on "did it make me cry?/how loud?" than you're retarded pussbag." is a strict sentence. There are people that will not agree with that as a best way to determine if someone is a retarded pussbag but using it you can do it objectively. Some may as well think that you are behaving like desperate teenager. Rating/reviewing is never objective since it involves emotions, yet to form the most balanced opinion you have to try to put them aside. Judging something just by amount of tears/laughter it brought is idiocy - I had lots of lulz while watching Apocalypse Zero, so it means it deserved 10? Prrfffff. Reading and understanding doesn't always go together as I see. Right back at ya. @Hotaru_yuki Plebeians should just sit in their caves. |
orzel286Dec 11, 2011 7:02 AM
| Why is "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" more objective than "Clannad is a high quality anime"? Because it is a criterion on which base you may define the result without doubts. It either made you cry or not. I admit that someone can cry while seeing the hamster being beheaded while others may say it's just disgusting or funny or immoral or something else but there wasn't any homster beheading in Clannad. In case of "Clannad is a high quality anime" the criterion isn't defined because you don't know where is a limit that divides high and low quality. Even if you could make a number of components trying to be "objective" as far as possible (which "Clannad is a high quality anime" sentence doesn't determine) it will still be flawed on different levels: - how many and which components to choose - when the requirements for "high quality rating" for each component are met - what importance give them - for different people different components are more important than others In case of a different anime you might be forced to change components and the point of view: for example slow pace in anime can be a positive while in other might be unbarable for a viewer I never said that I rate anime on the basis "Anime is the best because it made me cry/laugh for hours/think about my life/etc". Sometimes however I take that into consideration. If you read something like "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" I think it tells you more than when you read "Clannad is a high quality anime". I know it isn't accurate in terms when/how/why it made someone cry or what kind of person made that statement but you can somewhat predict what kind of an anime you might be dealing. In making a review putting aside personal feelings is ofc strongly recommended or at least hiding it behind the phrase like "possible impact it may have on the potential viewer". |
| For some people, rating something according to their own enjoyment. It doesn't make they better or worse, nor the people that try to write everything "objectively" or "quality-wise". In the very end, everything returns to how you weight every aspect to your overall score. I rate Clannad AS 9 because I can relate and "Get In" to the story very much, and moreover... it changes me That kind of impact haven't been done by any other anime before, that's why I rate it 9 despite of some bad aspects, such as not so strong first half (of clannad AS) and pretty weak ending. So, please go away. No things such as overrated. My rate is my rate, your rate is your rate. |
Linaeris said: Why is "Clannad is the best because it made me cry" more objective than "Clannad is a high quality anime"? Because it is a criterion on which base you may define the result without doubts. It either made you cry or not. OK, so, let's say that both anime X and Y made you cry. They're from the same genre. How do you determine which one was better? Do you count your tears, or compare their volume? And what about shows/games/music/etc that doesn't make you cry? They suck? Like "GTA San Andreas sucks becouse it didn't make me cry, while GTA2 did" - WTF? Besides - people can cry (or not) about different things (hamster?), crying is just manifestation of emotions - and since you CAN'T MEASURE EMOTIONS - they're subjective. In case of "Clannad is a high quality anime" the criterion isn't defined because you don't know where is a limit that divides high and low quality. Even if you could make a number of components trying to be "objective" as far as possible (which "Clannad is a high quality anime" sentence doesn't determine) it will still be flawed on different levels: - how many and which components to choose - when the requirements for "high quality rating" for each component are met - what importance give them - for different people different components are more important than others In case of a different anime you might be forced to change components and the point of view: for example slow pace in anime can be a positive while in other might be unbarable for a viewer So, you can't tell if Ferrari F50 is a good car, becouse you don't know how to distinguish rubbish from excellent piece of machinery?... ...I bet that Top Gear crew didn't knew that :| |
| @ orzel286 I admit that if there would be 2 or more anime which made someone cry then it wouldn't be possible to determine which is best solely on that criterion (that's why people should use precisely such sentence if any other anime couldn't achieve that - probably they do, that wouldn't be a case if a sentence was: "I gave Clannad 10 because it made me cry") Middle part of your post is... well let's just say it departs from the subject a little too far. On the same manner saying that "Ferrari F50 is high quality anime" would have even less sense :-). I think Jeremy Clarkson would agree. I haven't played GTA and I don't intent to however there are games/music which also can cause people cry or induce other emotions or feelings. Measuring emotions - it is possible - maybe not always with a unit but at least you can compare which thing (anime/car/game/character/song/behavior/etc) induces which emotions and if they are the same which one is stronger. |
| Clannad is for fags, you guys should watch some REAL ANIME like LotGH or at least something creative like The Tatami Galaxy. |
 |
Linaeris said: Middle part of your post is... well let's just say it departs from the subject a little too far. On the same manner saying that "Ferrari F50 is high quality anime" would have even less sense :-). I think Jeremy Clarkson would agree. you don't know where is a limit that divides high and low quality. -_- Read again? however there are games/music which also can cause people cry or induce other emotions or feelings. Yes, but, those emotions - both positive and negative - are "added value" of work, and don't make said work a masterpiece. Measuring emotions - it is possible With voltometer? Dynamometer? KeiranShikari said: Clannad is for fags, you guys should watch some REAL ANIME like LotGH Quoted For Mutha Fukkin' Truth! |
| @ orzel286 I think that when you quote someone you shouldn't do it in a "taken out of context" way which may lead to misunderstandings. Agree with "added value" and agree that emotions don't make a work a masterpiece at least not alone. Taken from KeiranShikari anime list: Anime Title: Clannad: After Story (Rewatching); Score: 10; Progress: 10/24; Tags: Best series ever. About measuring emotions - like I said before you can compare them - I think that's undeniable. Measurement with units... hmm pressure gauge and pulsometer comes to mind, voltmeter I think in some cases also but to lesser extent, and well you can also count tears :-) |
LinaerisDec 11, 2011 2:43 PM
kevinxiaowis said: Karhu said: I don't rate anime based to enjoyment, but quality. Disturbing. You've separated the inseparable. What is the purpose of an anime? It's entertainment; you enjoy it because it allows you to experience emotions. Clannad is successful because it excels in delivering emotions: it humors you, it twists your heart, and then it soothes you. Karhu, you are blinding yourself with your hatred of Deus Ex Machina. Yes, it is an unpopular and hated technique. Divine intervention never happens, we cannot ever relate to it. A dangerous event to include in any story. Do you have regrets? Do you sometimes curse at fate or probability or destiny? Of course you do. Some people have it worse. When life is crap, we all yearn for a miracle - a miracle that never comes. But what if a miracle did happen? Could you imagine your elation? How thankful would you be? When you watch the ending of Clannad, you are exploring the sheer happiness of a miracle second-hand. You are experiencing a level of happiness that almost nobody gets to experience in the real world. And this is what I call an exceptional execution of Deus Ex Machina, where one firmly establishes utter despair beforehand, and rolls in the 'reset button' in a dazzling display of clouds, wind and light - to hammer in the impression that you will *never* experience this miracle outside of fiction. I imagine you are angry because you think Clannad preaches that "if you're nice enough, God will save you". And your anger prevents you from appreciating what Clannad wants to show you. Are you going to ignore everything else Clannad has accomplished? All the explorations of relationships? All the humor? All of the stunning visuals? All of the music? All of the voice acting? All of the things dedicated to showing people the value of family and friends? You are going to ignore all of it? All Clannad wants you to do is treasure the people you meet in life. Treasure the mom who berates your low academic accomplishments, treasure the dad who is never at home, treasure the girlfriend who takes you on 7 hour shopping runs for clothes. Because your mom wants you to be successful so that you can live comfortably. Your dad wants to earn enough money for the family to live comfortably. Your girlfriend cares about whether you like her image so you can spend your lives together comfortably. Such simple facts too often go unnoticed around the world and lead to tragedy. When it comes to art: all forms of art, their ultimate goal is to leave a memorable impression. A work of art has failed if it is completely forgotten, or completely ignored. Thus in the realm of art, I consider Clannad: After Story, a true masterpiece. No movie, no book nor drama, no other second-hand medium has allowed me to experience such powerful emotions. And nothing else as of yet, has so dramatically altered my perspective. Nah, most of others are fooling themselves by ignoring the ending. I've also explained my points already in this thread so I won't even bother to argue about those all again. "Are you going to ignore everything else Clannad has accomplished?" Ending ruined everything what CAS accomplished, 4/10 is a fair rating. But hey, are you ignoring the ending? Yeah, you are."All the explorations of relationships? All the humor? All of the stunning visuals? All of the music? All of the voice acting? All of the things dedicated to showing people the value of family and friends? You are going to ignore all of it?" No, I ignore nothing. Those are part of the reason why I didn't rate 1/10. + Seen better stories, better character handling the same concept. Like said, I'm rating the quality, which isn't much in this case. + Production values means shit to me, and those are not even high in this case. Stunning visuals? Nah.I consider CAS as shit pile because of the ending. No other series, book or anything else has left me feel like raped/heavily trolled. Still I'm being a fair guy and gave 4/10. Here be nice review also: http://myanimelist.net/reviews.php?id=36575 And once again this quote: Baman said: Appel_stroop said: Well, that depends if we'd rate it a 9 based on the overall enjoyment or something else. So you're saying you rate a show a 4 instead of a 9 even though you liked the biggest part of the anime, but disliked the ending? In my opinion that makes even less sense. Sure the ending was probably not the best. But seeing how you wanted to rate it a 9, the ending must have been extremely horrible in your opinion to lower it that much because you probably enjoyed it until the ending. I didn't really like the ending either but I still rated it high seeing how my overall enjoyment was extremely high. At least in my case, most of the series was pretty meh, and would not have risen over a 6 at the very best, but then all of a sudden Nagisa dies of mysterious space AIDS (though not so much a surprise from KEY). Which in itself would be pretty lame and cliché, but the subsequent interactions between Tomoya and Ushio were really great imo, and it was both touching and interesting to see a anime handle such an unusual subject. So even if the rest was pretty meh, that character development in the end made it rise out of the mud and would have at least netted it a 8 on my part. But the sudden happy end rendered all the previous character development inconsequential and ruined the whole theme behind it, removing any impact it had. And while I wouldn't always turn down the rating so much from a bad ending, I certainly would in a case like this, where the only thing that made it great is ruined by it. This thread is pure offtopic already. In the end, my ratings are based to logic and the actual quality, yours be based some other shit. I really don't care. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
| Applying your logic Karhu and your way of rating I think that Code Geass shouldn't get higher than minus 6 or something :-). Unless it's Kali's logic: When Kali steal a cow from someone - good, if someone steal a cow from Kali - bad :-) And yes topic is living its own life. |
Linaeris said: About measuring emotions - like I said before you can compare them - I think that's undeniable. Measurement with units... hmm pressure gauge and pulsometer comes to mind, voltmeter I think in some cases also but to lesser extent, and well you can also count tears :-) Blood pressure, pulse, sweating - these are only manifestations of emotions. Emotions are chemical reactions inside your head. -_- |
victorm23 said: Since it's your review about CAS, then that means its all YOUR opinion and experiences, you didn't like it from beginning to end (even if you say it had its redeemable moments) and I see no problem in that, however both TV and Anime have these kinds of people, people who love it and people who hate it. I wrote that review? No I didn't, you silly. you didn't like it from beginning to end Are you trying to piss me off or just stupid? You obviously haven't read any of the posts I wrote. I've explained my points to all of those your post has, don't quote me and waste my time if you have nothing new to say. Moreover, don't put words in my mouth when that certainly is not the way I think about CAS. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
Baman said: I'm not lying, this literally made me laugh for 30 seconds.but then all of a sudden Nagisa dies of mysterious space AIDS I have such a bone to pick with Clannad AS. The 5 episode arc with Tomoya and Ushio was great! 9/10 material. The anime before that point the anime is meh. 7/10. But the last episode was EASILY a 3/10. The fuck was that shit that they pulled? I'm sorry, I don't expect magical light orbs to bring Nagisa back to life and undo all of the interesting things that has happened. That shit was dumb. I don't care if you can try to justify it by saying, "Well they eluded to it during the series -- the alternate universe was there since episode 1." No. I don't accept that as an answer. I think that Key did the shittiest job at explaining everything. There's something wrong with the anime when it leaves half of its audience confused. You shouldn't have to walk away from any show confused. Yeah, it might take a little bit of thinking and piecing things together, but Clannad is inexcusable. I watched this anime something like two years ago and I still don't fully understand the ending. The most ANNOYING thing about this series is that they had 24 episodes & used the last 2 episodes for stupidity when they could have explained the ending. When I was watching episode 22 I was praying that the whole psyche! Nagisa's alive thing was a sick joke. And then fans of this show will say, "Well if you don't understand the ending you're dumb or you're not paying enough attention." Nooo, fuck that. I paid the utmost attention to this anime, but it still made little sense to me. The show tries way to hard to be artsy and intellectually stimulating, but it's just dumb. AS only had like 5 good episodes and they completely screwed it with the ending. Anyone can say whatever they want to me, but I refuse to sway my opinion. I gave this anime a 7/10 because it had a really nice arc, but recently I've been considering downgrading the score. Seeing as I've also seen Kanon and Air, I think that Key should really just stop adapting VN's, or making anime at all. They're all 7/10's in my book because they have good moments, but seriously there's a problem when I have to Google "What the fuck just happened" for every single one. I can't just blame it on Key, but the VN's themselves. They try to be so creative and sad. Honestly, their "sadness" is cheap. Every one of the girls die from a mysterious illness. Like seriously? Everyone's been saying great things about Angel Beats, but I've fallen for that trick before. I don't trust Key AT ALL with story telling anymore. On a side note the animation is annoying. Their eyes are half of their face, lol. /mytwocents |
 "It's just...a bad dream! Wake up, wake up...!" |
| i really hate how they come back to life on the last minute.. it would have been so much memorable, for me, if it ended as a tragedy. Oh i think it was a miracle thing. Damn you KEY! |
| My Guitar Covers: Playlist I CAN ALWAYS SHOW MY EVERYTHING TO YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUU |
| please respect other people choice by not bashing them.... No way Clannad is an overrated anime |
Firixizu_MintJul 23, 2012 4:41 AM
Linaeris said: Wow this may actually be the worst excuse I've ever read for deus ex machina. Congrats.I don't get the point when someone says "ending ruined everything", "they should have left it at ep 18 or 21 because now it's a deus ex machina happy ending". Actually it isnt, there are things in life we arent aware of or we don't know we have any influence on them but they happen or may happen. Edit: Oh hey look, I posted here two years ago. Heyyyy~~~ old me |
mylovelyfateMay 16, 2014 2:46 PM
"It's just...a bad dream! Wake up, wake up...!" |
mylovelyfate said: But it isn't a deus ex machina.Linaeris said: Wow this may actually be the worst excuse I've ever read for deus ex machina. Congrats.I don't get the point when someone says "ending ruined everything", "they should have left it at ep 18 or 21 because now it's a deus ex machina happy ending". Actually it isnt, there are things in life we arent aware of or we don't know we have any influence on them but they happen or may happen. Edit: Oh hey look, I posted here two years ago. Heyyyy~~~ old me |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| Clannad is full of symbolism, including the use of leitmotif. For instance, in the Ichinose Kotomi arc, the is a black butterfly that leads Tomoya to her house. The glowing orbs floating skyward represent joy and the soul. Snow represents death/illness. Etc. The world in which the girl and the robot represents a world between life and death. The girl is Ushio and the robot is Tomoya. This is the "other world" that Ichinose's parents were researching. In one scene, Ichinose explains the concept in quantum physics of parallel worlds and realities. There is also a reference to Æsop's fable of "The Lion and the Mouse" in Misae's arc. (For those not up on their Ancient Greek fables, the moral of "The Lion and the Mouse" is "A kindness is never wasted".) In fact, the entire series is based on this very fable. I could go into further detail, but that would be a critique and analysis several pages in length, possibly even worthy of a Master's thesis. |
| I always lose at disc golf. I keep throwing the game. |
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