lucjan said: Ahem. I'm deriding your silly version of logic. nope, you're clearly being a troll. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| *snip snip snip* No insults please. Support your arguments or don't argue, and don't insult other users or you will earn yourself a faster-than-light-speed ban from alpha centauri. |
 I am a banana. |
| I believe my "insult", which can be interpreted in two ways (since I said "maybe") was in direct correlation with Jigero's behavior. He was either acting oblivious, or just throwing a fit over my witty, yet very smooth sarcasm ;O I called him out on it. |
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keasbo said: If space is infinite, it would be ridiculous to assume that Earth is the only place where you can find life or intelligent beings. Maybe they don't look like the monsters Ripley fought or the aliens from X-files but they are definitely 'out there'. There are too many things the human mind can't understand, because we relay on our 5 senses too much...but that's another matter... The Universe is finite. And the "multiverse" is, at this point, a mere theoretical articulation. Logically, we do not exist in anything infinite. |
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| Well, there is evidence to suggest the universe is finite, but at the very least is it so ridiculously unfathomably huge that it might as well be infinite by human standards. The Hubble telescope has told us that you can try to find the darkest most empty part of space you can, but if you squint into your telescope you'll find hundreds of billions of galaxies there too. It's so vast that we can't even chart all the trillions of galaxies, much less the many hundreds of billions of stars they contain. That scale boggles the imagination. With so many stars and planets out there, it should be clear that there are at least some planets with life in some form, and the chances of intelligent life are actually amazingly good. |
I am a banana. |
Saka said: Well, there is evidence to suggest the universe is finite, but at the very least is it so ridiculously unfathomably huge that the idea that we are unique among the hundreds of billion of charted galaxies each containing many hundreds of billions of stars resembling our sun. We really can't even see deep enough into space to chart them all and the estimates for the size of the universe only keep growing. Aliens could exist, and that's my exact point. Note that I emphasized the word "could", because "could" does not make anything absolute, but a mere possibility. We have no idea if there are Aliens out there. You can say the universe is finite, but it is essentially so huge that it might as well be. The Hubble telescope has told us that you can try to find the darkest most empty part of space you can, but if you squint into your telescope you'll find hundreds of billions of galaxies there too. It's so vast that we can't even chart all the trillions of galaxies, much less the stars they contain. That scale boggles the imagination. Oh, definitely. To our minuscule scope, 93 billion light years isn't a comprehensible distance. That doesn't mean it's infinite; but I suppose to us it may mimic infinity. With so many stars and planets out there, it should be clear that there are at least some planets with life in some form, and the chances of intelligent life are actually amazingly good. Again, we don't know that. It could be true, and maybe should be true, but at the moment we're empty handed, and so, shouldn't be testifying aliens as 100% real. |
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lucjan said: Saka said: Well, there is evidence to suggest the universe is finite, but at the very least is it so ridiculously unfathomably huge that the idea that we are unique among the hundreds of billion of charted galaxies each containing many hundreds of billions of stars resembling our sun. We really can't even see deep enough into space to chart them all and the estimates for the size of the universe only keep growing. Aliens could exist, and that's my exact point. Note that I emphasized the word "could", because "could" does not make anything absolute, but a mere possibility. We have no idea if there are Aliens out there. You can say the universe is finite, but it is essentially so huge that it might as well be. The Hubble telescope has told us that you can try to find the darkest most empty part of space you can, but if you squint into your telescope you'll find hundreds of billions of galaxies there too. It's so vast that we can't even chart all the trillions of galaxies, much less the stars they contain. That scale boggles the imagination. Oh, definitely. To our minuscule scope, 93 billion light years isn't a comprehensible distance. That doesn't mean it's infinite; but I suppose to us it may mimic infinity. With so many stars and planets out there, it should be clear that there are at least some planets with life in some form, and the chances of intelligent life are actually amazingly good. Again, we don't know that. It could be true, and maybe should be true, but at the moment we're empty handed, and so, shouldn't be testifying aliens as 100% real. Your just ignoring the obvious fact that it's happened here. There is president. If it happened once it happened again. You your self are evidence that there is other life forms out there. Heck even Stephen Hawking treats aliens as undeniable fact just mathematical from probability alone. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| You may not even exist. You cannot even prove that the hand in front of your face exists, or even that you perceive it the way it actually is..... yet there is good evidence to believe it does. Let's put it this way... Your chances of winning the lottery are maybe one in 10 million, but if you could play it 200,000 million times then it'd be a pretty safe bet. There is no doubt in my mind that there is life out there... it might be trillions of light years away, but it's out there. It's hard to imagine that we have already been visited, though, as most of the stories are from explainable phenomena.... from ball lightning to psychoactive drugs. Religious/superstitious monsters are just as easily fantasized. There is evidence but none of it is credible.... on the other hand it's hard to deny that life isn't out there, since there is hard statistical evidence that the universe is huge and there are planets out there similar to our own.... that have been around longer than ours. |
I am a banana. |
| Since we do not have a good idea how life begun, much less the odds of it beginning, I think a statistical guess is wholly suspect. I don't see why you can't just say "we don't know", that is the true answer. Not that it would surprise me in the least, the opposite would be the surprising outcome, but those are no sufficient grounds for reasonable belief. Jigero said: If it happened once it happened again. This is a garbage statement. I was born once, it will happen again? |
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| It's true that we don't know there is life, but that doesn't mean we should not even bother looking. The chances of any single planet being capable of supporting life are unimaginably tiny, and the change of life developing in those conditions are small too..... but even with the tiniest odds, the chances are still very good with many billions of trillions of samples. The chance of earth-like planets forming is probable, and it's arrogant to assume that we are alone when there is a stupefyingly massive universe out there.... or even that it has to be similar to our own. I don't think Jigero is completely assumptive because life is plentiful here, and we've only looked glanced at our back yard. There is some accident that causes life, and it can't be more improbable than the amount of planets in the universe. |
sakaSep 10, 2011 2:08 PM
I am a banana. |
| To assume we're alone is as irrational as assuming we are not, really. We do not have any idea how improbable life is. What do you even base your statements about its improbability upon? Why can't it be more improbable than the amount of planets there are? |
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| I'm saying that the odds of life developing on a given planet cannot possibly be less than the trillions upon trillions of planets projected to exist, at least in my mind. I guess you can boil this down to whether you believe the odds of life are worse than the number of planets. We can't prove there is or is not life without investigating but hoping it exists can inspire investigation.... We personally will never know, but fostering curiosity is constructive too. |
I am a banana. |
| But why can't it be? Odds of life is not a matter of faith, it is possible to once we have the facts determine the odds, we do not have the facts. You don't need to anticipate a certain answer just to foster investigation, you just need the question. You certainly do not need to anticipate it more than as a matter of not being surprised if it turns out to be true. There is an eminent experiment in how likely life is, the only one we have had: life on Earth. For life on Earth probably only begun once. If the conditions were so good as they were here, if the surface of the earth is so vast, if the amount of puddles where basic, simple acids could combine into RNA or DNA, why did it only happen once? If a puddle was how it begun at all, we don't know, but it probably was a localized event. (If it was not, then that would be one of the most astonishing discoveries I can think of.) And we do have good cause to think it only happened once. We can trace species down to common ancestors everywhere, and then there's homochirality. Molecules can have different handedness - a structure which won't be superimposed on its mirror - and the molecules of life, sugars and amino acids, have their respective typical handedness. But there is no reason for that handedness, if life begun again it could have been opposite. There's been no new life since then and we don't even know how it would happen. So even where we know life can and did happen, it happened awfully seldomly, and we have no explanation for why... Except that it is very unlikely. (This does not necessarily mean it is the true explanation, and I think it's at best only part of it, but it is the only one we have any indication of.) |
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| Even though life is formed accidentally and rarely, there are relatively few elements and mixtures you can make out of "planet stuff". We at least know these planets and stars have mostly the same periodic elements, and most of the universe is much older than our tiny little spot on an outer spiral arm... so there has been more time for that improbable event to occur. It is at least plausible that there is life out there, so I will use that as my working model until it can be conclusively proven or disproven. I'm just hoping for the side that is easier to prove. I don't see any harm in working under a theory in the absence of solid proof. I'm not saying there definitely is life, but just saying the hypothesis is plausible and worth exploring. What we don't know will always outweigh what we do, but even if we don't know the answer to a question, we should have a better chance of finding it by making some assumptions on the way than by blindly observing everything. It may be biased and often come to the wrong conclusions, but I think peering hopefully through a distorted lens is more productive than closing our eyes or waiting around... and I can live with biased progress over objective certainty. Nobody knows of course, but much of the information we do have is because sociologically it's better to act on imperfect data than to be paralyzed by possibility. |
I am a banana. |
| That sounds profoundly irrational. I do not see what's "closing your eyes" about accepting that no, we don't know and that no, believing anything at this stage won't help anything. That's the truth, closing your eyes would be to accept anything else! It is not like accepting this position will preclude you from doing experiments on hypotheses. There is a difference between the assumption fo a belief and the assumption in a hypothesis you then test; you can assume anything for the sake of experiment without believing it. Experiment and science proceed with imagination, with proving things wrong, with trying to prove things wrong and failing, not just with assuming something is right and then trying to prove it, that is a very small form of science and not one of the more powerful (though certainly part you can't make do without). |
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| All I'm saying is that the line between believing something and assuming something can be blurred. We don't have a perfect view of the universe so we make do with lots of partial solutions. There is no experiment without bias, but we do make small allowances for error and bias and if our research is applicable enough to others it will be scrutinized. It sounds profoundly irrational, because humans as individuals are inherently irrational. Perhaps I should just rephrase it. I don't believe life definitely exists -- I expect life exists and it's plausible that it does. It's in the same way that I expect it will rain tomorrow, so I will plan according to that and adjust as necessary if it turns out to be sunny. It's a working model to use until we have the resources to verify that. |
I am a banana. |
| If we put it into probability, Aliens almost definitely exist, as stephen hawking said "according to my mathematical mind, the immense vastness of space and number of heavenly bodies would tell us, that life exists", even for a normal mind, if they put it in numbers i'm sure you'd end up with something like that But your other questions seem highly unlikely, although there is a slim chance |
| Do you think there is a possibility there are aliens? Very likely. High level beings depend on and developed from simple life forms. The simple ones are really tough on crazily harsh environment. In fact, scientists believe that there may be simple life forms even inside the solar system outside the Earth. But we need evidence. Earth had multiple extinction events. But they did not eliminate all life forms. Those who survived had showed how wonderful life diversified after each event. Although there are still disputes in various processes, but they rarely disagree with the big picture. Do you think that they are visiting us, plucking people form their beds to examine and experiment with us? May be. If they have already reached us, their technology is much far ahead of us. How much ? no idea. Chimps & gorillas are only a few % different from human in the genes and our intelligence difference is quite obvious. For a creature developed in a very different environment, it's really hard to imagine. Do you think that aliens are hostile or do you think they are here to help? Either. They don't really need to waste time on inferior animals and when Earth has some precious resource they definitely want. It's more or less up to them. Many human didn't even know animal rights. And many of them don't respect them even now. The picture would be similar. I expect no single species is purely good or bad (well ...unless they have no individual ID). Do you have a personal account with a ufo or abduction? No. |
Jigero said: Your just ignoring the obvious fact that it's happened here. There is president. If it happened once it happened again. You your self are evidence that there is other life forms out there. Heck even Stephen Hawking treats aliens as undeniable fact just mathematical from probability alone. My god man, are you willing to actually manipulate Hawking's words to prove your pseudo-point!? Stephen Hawking said Aliens PROBABLY exist! LEARN WHAT PROBABLY MEANS! saka said: You may not even exist. You cannot even prove that the hand in front of your face exists, or even that you perceive it the way it actually is..... yet there is good evidence to believe it does. This isn't a discussion on idealism, and existentialism. It's on if Aliens exist. Bringing in irrelevant philosophical branches that have to do with the subjective spectra of reality is nonsensical. Idealism only works with conspiratorial branches of life. Aliens aren't conspiracy. They're a mystery. |
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| I'm an alien. |
Valkyrie-Ryu said: Yeah, pretty much.RenaPsychoKiller said: Though this is totally true in a philosophical sense, there are some problems with it.By saying this you're assuming that humans are intelligent. The word intelligence as defined by a common dictionary is defined by humans so of course self-righteous as we are, we consider ourselves to be intelligent therefore the definition of intelligence is molded to fit our perception of humanity. In any case, intelligence is a spectrum. Jigero said: Good job, sir. This is exactly how I would have replied to Baman's worthless, ignorant, high and mighty, typically human post.Baman said: A definition we created, Intelligence is a matter of perspective. And our definition of Intelligence is only based on kinds we can understand and what makes us "Intelligent" is mostly frivolous, harmful and useless to our survival. Humans are intelligent by the very definition of the word. Lesser non-sentient animals, and certainly slave-species like dogs and cats, are obviously nothing compared to us, even the most half witted human is still leagues above their level. In what way? sure an animal has no understanding of physics and philosophy, but if I threw even the dumbest animal out in the wilderness it would easily survive, where as even the smartest human with out any perpetration would easily die. Also you only deem animals "lesser" because yet again this is perspective you only have your own guide lines from your own understanding to base this on. Just because we are unique doesn't make us better. Whether you think some of the things we do are good ideas or not has nothing to do with intelligence, we are still the undisputed master of this world in terms of, well, everything. Master implies control, but we control nothing, we are very much at the whims what ever nature decides to do. We maybe be able to delay or impeded but we have very little control even over our selves. Dogs and cats, slaves? Hopefully you don't have any pets, you'd be a terrible owner. They are sensitive companions and friends, not slaves. My cat and my dog are a thousand times more sensitive and graceful than someone like you. To me, it looks like we are the slaves, trapped in our own lives, without much power. We control this world? Really? Can we prevent a tsunami from happening? Can we stop time? Are we immortal? Were we here since the world was born? Are we superior to anything else? Obviously not. Nature is what rules this world, not we, who are more like parasites, a cancer for the planet. We derive from primeval monkeys. We are animals. You aren't God, nor you are more worthy of living than a cow, a wolf, or a tiger. We aren't better or smarter than other animals only because we can read, write, or know about useless things such as mathematics, technology, or philosophy. Humans suffer, feel joy, reproduce, eat, sleep, bleed, and die, exactly like any other animal on Earth. Your point of view is medieval. End of discussion. |
RenaPsychoKillerSep 12, 2011 9:41 PM
 you're so cute when you're frustrated, dear |
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