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Poll: 86 Episode 9 Discussion


Jun 7, 7:32 AM
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theGodde said:
as for Shin's expression, the issue is it can be interpreted a variety of ways. Before I went and asked on here, I thought he was either thinking "what is that?" or "my goodness I can't believe they're using that". All we can surmise from that is that the use of the arms was surprising, not necessarily unfamiliar. I thought about this a fair bit too much during the episode lmao.

Now you seem to have missed my point with the setting stuff (mainly because I rambled for 2-3 paragraphs about something and then made a completely different conclusion as I was basically reasoning as I was writing). My point was that they needed to make it more clear that this was also something new to the 86. It was a little too ambiguous for a piece of technology that very nearly decided the outcome of a battle.

As for the telepathy gear (yes I will keep calling it that -fight me), I was not criticising it at all, although it may have seemed that way. Wait... what did I actually say about it? Looking back I was originally going there with it and then I had this like 10 minute philosophy moment about how media representation of technology changes with time.
But yeah my main point was that the telepathy gear is a concept people don't understand so you have creative liberties with it. What you shouldn't have creative liberties with is... physics. Which is why I hate the spider mechs. [At least humanoid mechas are somewhat feasible because their legs are capable of supporting their body weight. Spider mechs have these tiny spindly legs - and because of physics (again, it's a little inconvenient all this logic and reasoning eh) weight increases greater than size increases, and I can assure you no futuristic skinny leg motor would be able to withstand the torque from the sheer weight of that big body and massive recoilless rifle.]

and yes I do have big problems with the mecha genre, which is why I'm not a massive fan of it (although sometimes I can appreciate the aesthetic - like with some of the better gundam entries and eva/pacific rim). I think this is a reason why a lot of people don't enjoy mecha anymore. It's because mecha anime keeps trying to tell more grounded and realistic stories that don't really sit well with the big boi human robots. (at least that's my take. I'm probably wrong though because behavioural science actually requires statistics and logical reasoning)


Hmmm I kinda can see your point. But if Shin had prior knowledge of those hands, he would have engaged close-combat a bit more carefully in my opinion. So that's why I thought it's more of a surprise coming from information that he did not have.

Also I still don't think it's necessary to reveal information there at that moment. Once again One Piece example. Shabody - Luffy vs Sentomaru. That's where Luffy is defeated by a Haki user and the concept of Haki came a lot later on. It can give you some sort of mystery to the story. But I can see that some people might be irritated of this kind of story telling.

Idk about telepathy. Telepathy is thought sharing/sending. You don't need to speak out loud in order to speak with each other. You can do it inside your minds. In the Para-raid's cause you speak out loud, you hear yourself speaking and that sense is shared with the other replicants. So I guess we can call it an artifical telepathy I guess. It doesn't really matter what's the base concept as long as we can accept the fact that it's okay to have this technology I guess.

Well I kinda find human-shape mechas unrealistic as well. But it's not to a point that it would hinder my enjoyement of it I guess? Also if you remember about the spired mech's legs, it was heavily emphasiszed in ep1 and in ep 9 that Shin keeps breaking them. So the physics is there.

theGodde said:
it's something the LN has an excuse for, since like you said it was originally written as a standalone. It could have been rewritten to expand the story and better flow with sequels, but that's not entirely necessary and I'm more than willing to let that pass with no consequences.

However the anime doesn't have that excuse. It shouldn't follow the LN to a T. The LN isn't perfect, and the adaptation arguably should be its own thing, able to stand on its own two feet even when the LN is taken out of the picture. If you see a glaring flaw in your source material (like criminally underwritten characters) then why not put in some time to fix this up. So far I haven't really seen anyone comment "this episode they added something that wasn't in the LN and I think it really improved the story" at all. Because the anime is following the LN so rigidly, it doesn't really get the chance to be its own thing. And that's a real shame to me because without the background of the LN this adaptation feels lifeless. It feels like a series of cool events that are being ticked off the LN checklist as they happen. And it's difficult to explain where in the direction this could be improved (I'll give it a rewatch once the series finishes and see if I can pinpoint what is making me feel this).


I kinda can agree with you here. Since the anime was written when the LN was already serialised. However there are a lot of liberties that the anime did regarding the adaptation. It does a lot of anime original scenes that you would not know if you didn't read the LN or was not told.
- The classroom scene in ep2
- Lecca and Daiya's death in ep 6
- Today's epiosode when Lena runs after them.

Also there are a lot of scenes and symbolism is added to the anime. Like the red flowers at the end of ep9, or when Lena writes the names of the 86. In the LN we just see Shin's perspective. The anime decided to add her to a Graveyard and portray you the harsh irony that every deceased ALba having a memorial, while 86-s don't even have a grave.

So there are some liberties taken, but they mostly for Lena or Shin's case. So I agree with you that aside from those 2, they don't have much character developement.

Also this is not something the anime can win. Because if it takes too much liberty, the LN readers will get angry. Some of them are already mad about the classroom scene. So you either get trashed by anime onlys, or LN readers.

I beleive this all comes down to our difference that I read the LN while you don't. The anime is much more enjoyable when you read the LN next to it because in the LN there are more narration and you kinda can get a more full picture. Also the anime doesn't really tell you directly what's happening. It just puts it there and you need to find it and understand it. And if you don't know what to look it might be difficult. I personally rewatch every episode multiple times and read subredits that analyze each episode and people who are much smarter than me usually point out some of these hidden elemets which makes the anime even more enjoyable for me. Because of this I can see the dedication of the anime studio that took on the project.

theGodde said:
-by far my favourite depiction of child soldiers is Gundam Frame: Iron Blooded Orphans. They feel like their childhoods have been stolen. You can really feel the cost of war on their lives. And that is what I was expecting with the 86. Just growing up in a concentration camp should change you enough that you stop acting like normal teenagers. These guys are holocaust survivors that then volunteered to go die on a battlefield. What kind of person lives like that and acts like a normal teenager?


I have not seen that anime, so i can't really make comments regarding to it.
This element is also represented in 86. Epiosde 3 lake scene, where the girls hear a slight noise and instantly pull their guns. Also theim being accustomed to death. Also the way they act is explained by them:

https://imgur.com/a/9LEe3UX

Also Raiden's comment about walking up to a gallow and choosing how they take the steps along the way. You can either be al gloomy and melancholic or try to enjoy the remaining time you left. Also keep in mind these are 4-5 year veterans. Idk if in that the people in IBO Gundam are newbies or veterans. If they were newly recruits who has to face these environment I would agree with you for acting too up-beat. Also this is just one squad on the whole front. There might be 86 who just can't accept this holocaust fate.

theGodde said:
As for the military guy, I can't read Japanese and the auto-translators are shit, so his twitter really doesn't give me much other than tell me he exists. What I'll say is that I can see his handiwork in plenty of places. The fact that the 86's mechs use recoilless rifles rather than conventional cannons is a really cool small detail that just increases the realism for me. The way the HE-VT mortars worked was also really realistic and satisfying to see accurately portrayed (which is why I keep bringing them up). But I don't know much about the guy. I don't know how much he actually contributed. I really don't know enough to say that this guy had a hand in the characters at all. For all we know, he could have just been a creative consultant on the military technology.
Which should mean that any issues with the tech and world building deserve even more criticism - since you can't argue that "it's just anime" since they literally brought in a military guy to get this stuff right.


Unfortuantely I also cannot give you more info on it. I also found out this week in another discussion topic. I kinda think it's similar to Shougeki no Souma, where the Mangaka works with an expert chef who helps him out with the cooking/food part.

I would like to ask what's your line on being acceptable for being realistic/unrealistic. Since you kinda appreciate some stuff that you find okay, while ruthessly critical over stuff that you find unrealistic. Like 100 techology, 75% is realistic, 25% unrealistic is acceptable for you? What's the line?

theGodde said:
I'll probably end it here because I am an armchair expert on soviet warfare since ...


Make no mistake, I'm also an armchair expert. I was merely putting a what -if situation where the US/UK doesn't supply the USSR. Obviously USSR supplied by those 2 was meant that Germany had no chance, but if they could/did not do it Germany might could have done the impossible, or the Soviets would have had way more casualty to turn the tides. But I end this with a Stalin quote coming from the source I gave you:

""I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

I am Hungarian so I kinda know about Hungarian history (duhh). I was merely trying to emphasize that incompetent leadership was always part of Human history, so I don't beleive it's that unbeliveable for the Republic to have similarly incompetent leaders. If it can happen in our time, why can't in 86?

But since you said you are from Australia, there is the infamous Emu Wars. :Đ


theGodde said:
While I think we are making ground, I am actually starting to forget most of the problems I originally had with 86 because I've spent more time arguing on these forums then actually watching the show, and when I rewatch it I'll come back with them and we'll probably go back to ground zero.


I totally agree with you on that. I really hope by the anime ends 1st and second season your opinion on it will change for the better. Also I would like to encourage you to try to read the first volume of the LN aswell, to get some more insight regarding the story. I'm positive that it would enchance your enjoyement of the anime.
Modified by UTMAN, Jun 7, 8:21 AM
 
Jun 7, 8:24 AM

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UTMAN said:
Albi-kun said:


What I'm saying is that racism comes fundamentally from differences. Whether it's skin color differences (our world) or species differences (One Piece)


Noo, you can hate your own race aswell. It's called invidiual racism. Which I also told you in my previous post.

Also you said OP explored racism better than 86, which is factually not true. This is what we were talking about from the very beginning.


It's more relevant in 86 because the whole story is based around it. Nothing more.
 
 
Jun 7, 8:32 AM

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That Brother x Brother thing didn't hit as hard for me....

I mean...we've got nothing.
Not any real motivations, backstorys, we don't really know anything about these two.

All we got is basically the elder Brother loves Shin....but he snapped at him, this one time, almost killing him. He's sorry for that. Now his brain was stolen. Shin want's to put him to rest.

Oh and the Slide Show of 3-4 cute, little Aniki-Moments, of course xD

I just don't care about them as brothers enough...to really get the feels for this scene.

Not cause I don't like the Show. The Anime just didn't bother really establishing their relationship, before having them fight this EPIC battle of Brothers....
It feels a bit like forced Drama this way.

Im sure the Lightnovel explains it, or the Anime plans on elaborating on that whole thing in the future (maybe)...but as it is now:

-> This wasn't really written well. This felt like someone wanted to have an Epic Battle, for the sake of having an Epic Battle, without really fleshing out things that would make it more emotional or meaningful. At least for me, it wasn't.


 
Jun 7, 8:57 AM

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aightbet said:
Albi-kun said:


Can you please tell me what changed about Lena so much that made you change your view of her? She's basically the same. Always trying to help, with good intentions in mind. Just because the 86 didn't acknowledge her and now they do, it doesn't mean she has changed.

What's with all the Naruto hate by the way? Everyone is mentioning Naruto to me like it's some shit show.

I've only commented twice on this show, the others are just responses to other people.


I see, I do apologise if my comment was too harsh, looking back it does look so to me. Sorry about that.


I will write a fairly lengthy piece of text explaining my perspective about the character of Lena, because I feel like her character is greatly misunderstood by many.

So, with the development of Lena being in mind, when Lena was first shown to us, it was clear that she played the role of being an idealistic and overtly naive character in an anime about war and discrimination. This was the character trope the writer of this story had essentially given Lena to perform, and she performed this role magnificently. Her idealism of what her country stands for and should accomplish was almost obnoxious and felt incredibly childish, and her advocacy for the 86 almost felt like it was merely a show of disgusting pity to the 86 people with regards to what her country was ACTUALLY doing to the 86. Of course at first glance, these aspects of Lena made it so that it was difficult for the audience to really like or connect with her as she was so disconnected with the reality of the 86's situation, and this is something the spearhead squadron themselves also felt.

Now a key aspect of Lena's character in the beginning I want to highlight is how trustful she is of what she sees, or is told. Lena at first was seen to be unable to have adequate critical thinking behind the information she learns about whether by her own eyes or ears. Her naivety is reflected by how she is very quick to believe or take things as fact the moment she learns about them, and this is namely seen in two separate occasions. The first one is when Lena interacts with Shourei (Shin's brother) when she was young, and the second is her blind trust of her government's word on reinstating the citizenship of the 86 after 5 full years of military service.

The first point I want to explore is of Shourei's reason of fighting which was shown in episode 3 of the anime when Lena was speaking with Kaie. Lena, who was rescued by Shourei when her father took her to the battlefield had learned of why Shourei fights. And what Shourei says to Lena is "We are members of the Republic. We were born here and grew up here. It's a citizen's duty to protect his country. I'm proud to do it. That's why we fight". Lena, after learning this is seemingly misguided by Shourei's reasoning of fighting and applies this 'fight principle' to all members of the 86. In essence this was one of the first signs where we saw Lena's naiveness and innocence working in full course. This is despite the context that Lena already knows of the 86 which is that they are forcefully conscripted into military service, her blind trust and closed view of her own thoughts, values, and ideals blinded her into honestly believing that the 86 actually fight for such a virtuous cause, and depicts her incapability to critically think behind why the 86 are actually fighting given the context she already knows.

The second case of Lena's obnoxious virtuousness and naivety can be seen in her blind trust of the Republic's word that the reinstatement of the 86's citizenship is guaranteed after the 5 years of military service they are forced to do. And yet again, we see that her lack of critical thinking given the context that she knows that the 86 are not even referred to as humans by the educators, policy makers, high ranking generals, and population of the Republic. How would the 86 actually be given 'human rights' and citizenship when said people have literally been taken as an example of beings that have 'failed to evolve'? This shows yet again Lena's innocence and naivety concerning her ideals.

The anime topples each of these cases by putting Lena in situations where she is under immense pressure by the 86, and forced to change her justifications and beliefs in order to conform with the realities of her own country and this 'blood-less' war, and most of all opens up her previously tunnel vision virtuousness and lip service advocacy into something much more respectable and meaningful. It is also in these situations where we, the audience, see Lena's growth by how she actively reshapes her fundamental ideals and turning into a character that does not remain only idealistic but also has an ounce of realist principles and is capable of dealing with these changes and events accordingly.

To keep this short, I will continue using the two cases of Lena's display of her naivety previously to show how Lena develops as a character.

If you remember in the manner Lena talked to the spearhead squadron until episode 3, one can argue that Lena herself, despite her strong views of acknowledging the 86 as humans and citizens of the Republic, has herself been impacted by the indoctrination of the Republic's views on those who are of not pure-blooded Albas. This is something that was interesting because it serves as a direct juxtaposition between Lena's beliefs and actions. So how were her conversational mannerisms ironic when engaging with the 86? It was simple, Lena did not even think about asking the real names of the people she is talking to. No, instead however, she unconsciously chose to continue using the spearhead squadron's member's codenames instead. This was yet again remarkable when you consider the fact that Lena asked for the name of the cat who lives with the squadron but not even have the thought of asking the real names of the very people she is conversing with.

Referring to people with codenames instead of their actual names serves as a way to dehumanise a person by taking their very identity away, and is a prime example of Lena's unconscious mannerisms she may had picked up on during her time working as a handler, and not directly handed real names of the processors she is commanding, OR may also be a result of the Alba-centric education she had been given as well as surrounded by people sharing the Alba supremacist viewpoint. Either way though, this unbeknownst way of identification of hers served as the piece that made Lena's idealism ironic and collapses onto itself when she is exposed to the very harsh, but true words of Theo's exposition of holes in her virtue signalling mind and lip service advocacy. During Theo's outburst is when we, the audience, can see for ourselves that Lena's two ideals that, (1) the 86 fight to protect the Republic and (2) 86 should be treated as human beings, come crumbling down as Lena is in denial of her own actions as she realises how her fundamental idealistic principles failed to resonate with the spearhead squadron despite her projecting of virtuousness in an almost disgustingly pitiful way was not only insulting, but also ironic.

After Theo's outburst, Lena comes to understand this and realise her shortcomings. We can also see for ourselves that Lena makes great efforts into truthfully understanding the 86, and to not continue being blinded by her idealisms that have stemmed since her childhood. We see that she truly wants to become a better person, she understands her mistakes and decides to grow on this by asking for the real names of the spearhead squadron's member's.

The first case showed an aspect of how Lena developed as a character from her perspective of morals and ethics, and now comes the development of Lena from realist fundamentals within the second case.

As explained previously, the second case of Lena ironically trusting what her government says about granting citizenship to the 86 once their 5 year military service is over despite fully knowing that the country themselves have never once referred to the 86 as actual human beings serves as an ideal that is broken when the spearhead squadron finally expose what the spearhead squadron's role actually is within the war. Which is of course, the final execution ground to the most elite of the 86 soldiers who have continuously survived and are coming dangerously close to their 5 year term limit. This case represents the final breaking point of Lena's ideals of her country, military, people, and government that comes shattering down when she finally understands that her previous protests to her superior by rank, uncle, to add new soldiers to the now diminishing spearhead squadron had been completely futile, and served as the key to opening her locked close-sighted view. This is also the time when Lena can finally think critically, something that I mentioned early in this text to be a key attribute she lacked in previous to the event of the second case. It is here when we finally see Lena transition to someone who no longer just listens and follows orders, but to become radical, and to finally disobey the authority that had been holding her back in helping the 86 all this time. This was the final wake-up call for Lena, and what a wake-up it was, with her blackmailing her best friend (well currently not best friends I guess at this point in time) to sharing vision between the handler and 86 soldier and to take control of the artillery launch. Over the course of 9 episodes we saw a slow, but progressing change in Lena's mindset, and method of showing advocacy and support to the 86 by becoming much more radical, and particularly frightening.

Just taking these two cases alone we have seen an incredible change of old Lena and present Lena. We can see that the Lena at present is much more fitting to being a leader. She is able to think critically, think radically, use underhanded means to take charge of a situation and act according to her beliefs. We have seen her transition into an arguably cutesy, shallow, ultra-idealistic, ironic, and follower-type character into a character now with great depth, radical ability, leadership skills, and sacrificing some of her ideals in favour of seeing the broader picture. The real picture.

You made the comment that "She's basically the same. Always trying to help, with good intentions in mind." And I have to say, you are correct. She is still the same, but that is a good thing. Her character from the very beginning was set to supporting and advocating for the 86, to help with whatever that is needed to keep the 86 alive. But rather than focusing on how Lena develops with regards to her emotions regarding the 86, to truly evaluate Lena's character development you need to take into account HOW her mindset changes, how she comes to terms with her flawed idealism, how she becomes a leader, how she comes to better understand the 86, how she transitioned into merely performing lip service to the 86 becoming a radical with her means of supporting the 86, how she is now able to think critically as compared to conforming to her ideals and naivety. I believe this is the way to see Lena's development, which is why I believe Lena is a very well written character.

Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.

Anyways, regarding your Naruto thing. No, I don't think Naruto is shit at all, only MAL elitists would probably say such a thing. However, I personally would not give it a 10/10. That being said, this doesn't mean you are obviously wrong for giving it a 10. If you loved the show, you loved the show man.


I read this all out of respect because honestly, I don't really care that much about this. Yeah, I guess Lena did develop to the point where she took actions into her hands by actually helping them in the battle with more than instructions. But it's nothing major in my opinion, considering how much she cared from the beginning. Regarding the codename thing, I did see others talk about it in a similar way, but I kind of disagree with it. I interpreted her calling them by their codename as her trying to be professional and respecful, but the 86 misunderstandood her intention. Because think about it. How bad would it look if she immediately starting acting buddy-buddy with them when she's not one of them no matter how hard she tries, she can't relate with them. So I interpreted it as her being respecful, but they misunderstood it because they didn't know her yet.
Modified by Albi-kun, Jun 7, 9:00 AM
 
Jun 7, 9:01 AM
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Angel_crush1 said:
Fede111 said:
Where is it that they're headed to at the end of the epidose and why? I've completely forgotten what their orders were lol they set to a legion camp or base or something right?


There's a forum in this series that titled of "im sorry,what" that is were the answer your looking for


Just read it, it was their orders alright I feel dumb doubting what I had seen last episode lmao thanks dude :)
 
Jun 7, 9:03 AM

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superjordan2001 said:
Albi-kun said:


Yeah, I like shounen. What's the issue here?

First of all, you don't know what I think about Boruto, so you're way off the mark there with your stupid conjecture. Secondly, there's nothing I don't understand about 86, it's just overrated as hell.


I think I like shounen more if I am able to distinguish according to quality. (Hunter x Hunter 10? Acceptable. Bleach 10? Hmmmm.)


I've watched Bleach 10 years ago.
 
 
Jun 7, 9:05 AM
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Merve2Love said:
That Brother x Brother thing didn't hit as hard for me....

I mean...we've got nothing.
Not any real motivations, backstorys, we don't really know anything about these two.

All we got is basically the elder Brother loves Shin....but he snapped at him, this one time, almost killing him. He's sorry for that. Now his brain was stolen. Shin want's to put him to rest.



It's not really nothing.

Well the most important stuff is:
Shin and his brother lived in district 1. They got deported. Their parents went to fight the Legion to protect them, but they all died. Now dealing with this fact and the realization that it's now his turn to go to the battlefied to protect Shin, Rei (his brother) just snapped under the pressure and basically choked Shin to death while putting all the blame on him. This is the last/ and only memory Shin has his brother. While Rei deeply regretting what he did.

When the Legion kills a person and makes them into Black Sheep/Shepherds, the last thing in the mind of the killed person is strenghtened. And the last thought of Rei was his obsession of Shin and trying to protect him. So him being a Shephard is 100% focused on this task.

Also there is a misunderstandtment by Shin that his brother still blaims him for everything after his death, and basically when he kills Rei, his brother finally forgives him and the two reconcile for a split second, causing to Shin remember his trapped memories of his brother.

But I respect your opinion on the matter.
 
Jun 7, 9:51 AM

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UTMAN said:
Merve2Love said:
That Brother x Brother thing didn't hit as hard for me....

I mean...we've got nothing.
Not any real motivations, backstorys, we don't really know anything about these two.

All we got is basically the elder Brother loves Shin....but he snapped at him, this one time, almost killing him. He's sorry for that. Now his brain was stolen. Shin want's to put him to rest.



It's not really nothing.

Well the most important stuff is:
Shin and his brother lived in district 1. They got deported. Their parents went to fight the Legion to protect them, but they all died. Now dealing with this fact and the realization that it's now his turn to go to the battlefied to protect Shin, Rei (his brother) just snapped under the pressure and basically choked Shin to death while putting all the blame on him. This is the last/ and only memory Shin has his brother. While Rei deeply regretting what he did.

When the Legion kills a person and makes them into Black Sheep/Shepherds, the last thing in the mind of the killed person is strenghtened. And the last thought of Rei was his obsession of Shin and trying to protect him. So him being a Shephard is 100% focused on this task.

Also there is a misunderstandtment by Shin that his brother still blaims him for everything after his death, and basically when he kills Rei, his brother finally forgives him and the two reconcile for a split second, causing to Shin remember his trapped memories of his brother.

But I respect your opinion on the matter.


You basically repeated what I said...well....with more words xD

Just saying we don't know a full and good story. We know that he wanted to kill Shin and that he blaims him for....something...we don't really know the ins and outs of that story. We got bits of what COULD make up a Story.

-> Which made it so much less intriguing to watch the climax of it all
 
Jun 7, 9:56 AM
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Merve2Love said:
UTMAN said:


It's not really nothing.

Well the most important stuff is:
Shin and his brother lived in district 1. They got deported. Their parents went to fight the Legion to protect them, but they all died. Now dealing with this fact and the realization that it's now his turn to go to the battlefied to protect Shin, Rei (his brother) just snapped under the pressure and basically choked Shin to death while putting all the blame on him. This is the last/ and only memory Shin has his brother. While Rei deeply regretting what he did.

When the Legion kills a person and makes them into Black Sheep/Shepherds, the last thing in the mind of the killed person is strenghtened. And the last thought of Rei was his obsession of Shin and trying to protect him. So him being a Shephard is 100% focused on this task.

Also there is a misunderstandtment by Shin that his brother still blaims him for everything after his death, and basically when he kills Rei, his brother finally forgives him and the two reconcile for a split second, causing to Shin remember his trapped memories of his brother.

But I respect your opinion on the matter.


You basically repeated what I said...well....with more words xD

Just saying we don't know a full and good story. We know that he wanted to kill Shin and that he blaims him for....something...we don't really know the ins and outs of that story. We got bits of what COULD make up a Story.

-> Which made it so much less intriguing to watch the climax of it all


Well kinda. You said there is no motivation, backstory etc.

I just added it for you. What you take is up to you. :)
 
Jun 7, 9:59 AM

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Man I almost cried. Seeing them being set free yet likely heading to their impending doom was too much for me. It’s been a while since any anime has brought out such emotion out of me. This has probably been my aots, which is surprising because I’m usually not a fan of mecha anime.
 
Jun 7, 10:02 AM
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It took an episode like this to make the mean score above 8.00, finally. Still not enogh, this anime still deserves much more. This episode was astonishing, the direction, the animations, the music, the scenes... I need to hurry up and finish the first volume, I wanna be prepared for the next season.
 
 
Jun 7, 10:16 AM

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Neion4ty7 said:
Albi-kun said:


I mean, you gave Shield Hero a 9, so I'm not taking that from you.


is that supposed to be an insult? Ill come right back at you with your 10 for naruto and fucking bleach. Hell if its shounen 300 eps at least to get anywhere you give it a 10, typical shounensperg. Like you gave sangatsu no lion an 8 while the aformentioned shounen drivel is 10s. the only one that deserves it is hunter x hunter.

You have watched over 100 eps of fucking boruto for christ sakes. Thats all i need to know to confirm my suspicion that any subtle exposition, symbolization or characterization is completely lost to you.


Ok, if you don’t like long running series as much as someone else that’s fine, but you don’t have to insult them for loving such a series. Naruto is one of my favourite anime, but is in no way a 10 for me because of how much I hated the ending. That doesn’t mean I should call someone who rated Naruto a 10 stupid, or say someone who likes Higehiro, a series that I think is bad and overrated af, has shit taste. I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to share opinions without being so disrespectful to others.
 
Jun 7, 10:28 AM
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The premise of this series intrigued me when I first saw the announcement for the anime. And I'm glad I picked it up. It has been amazing.

I can't believe how high quality this series is. It is slow in adapting the LN from what I've read from LN readers here, but that may just be its strength. It doesn't feel rushed, and as an anime-only I don't feel like I missed anything. It feels almost whole.

I thought episode 7 was epic, but this episode easily takes the cake. I knew Lena was going to do something, but I didn't know what. And I wasn't expecting an entire damn artillery barrage. That was amazing. At first I thought it was another enemy attack, but damn...

Lena is awesome. I love her character so much. Finally, she let go of all the hesitation to help Spearhead Squadron. She was not going to let them die. I doubt her blatant disregard for orders and the chain of command is going to be ignored. I think she'll be in very deep trouble. But maybe for the first time since she took command of Spearhead Squadron, she knows in her heart that she did the right thing.

Amazing moment with Shin and his brother. He can finally let his brother rest, and remember the happy moments.

That was quite the manipulation by Lena. But Henrietta needed that. She was fooling herself with the "nothing you can do" mentality. She used it to cover up her guilt. When faced with the obvious possibility that you can do something, she has nothing left to bury that guilt under. She had to face it. Loved Lena's expression during that scene, scary lol

That was quite a sad ending. Lena running to keep in range of the squadron. For the first time in their lives ever since they became 86ers, Spearhead Squadron is finally free, even if that freedom is under the constant threat of a Legion attack. But that's what they were under even before freedom, so this is better. No commands. No orders.

By the end of the episode, I was just amazed. Amazed by this light novel and its story, its themes and characters, and amazed by the work A-1 Pictures has done so far with this anime. This might just be my AotS, or even AotY.

I wonder where we'll go from here. I can't wait to see them adapt more volumes of this anime. Even though we still have 2 episodes, I already can't wait for the 2nd cour!
 
Jun 7, 2:54 PM
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It's lovely to see this show is attracting such "reasoned" (and lengthy) critical analysis

Give up the anger people, this show is great entertainment.

Modified by borderliner, Jun 7, 2:59 PM
 
Jun 7, 4:04 PM
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UTMAN said:
Merve2Love said:


You basically repeated what I said...well....with more words xD

Just saying we don't know a full and good story. We know that he wanted to kill Shin and that he blaims him for....something...we don't really know the ins and outs of that story. We got bits of what COULD make up a Story.

-> Which made it so much less intriguing to watch the climax of it all


Well kinda. You said there is no motivation, backstory etc.

I just added it for you. What you take is up to you. :)
the thing about development is that it's more about quality time rather than information quantity. We got around 2 separate backstory scenes, each not exceeding around 5 minutes. We barely know anything about Shin's bro other than the straight facts that you regurgitated before.

I agree that he didn't get enough development compared to the amount of importance he played in this latest episode.
 
Jun 7, 4:24 PM
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theGodde said:
No matter how many important people praise it, this will not eliminate its flaws - and based on the MAL review, a fair majority of people dislike this anime. It has 3-4 star reviews literally on the front page.


Oh god, are there still people who care about reviews? If a lot of people didn't like the show, it would have a score <6, with high percentages of drop (see the stats and their distribution).

It is already common on MAL that good shows have negative reviews as the most voted, since the only ones that give them relevance are the haters and their bots
Modified by ulon, Jun 7, 5:03 PM
 
Jun 7, 4:45 PM
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theGodde said:
UTMAN said:


Well kinda. You said there is no motivation, backstory etc.

I just added it for you. What you take is up to you. :)
the thing about development is that it's more about quality time rather than information quantity. We got around 2 separate backstory scenes, each not exceeding around 5 minutes. We barely know anything about Shin's bro other than the straight facts that you regurgitated before.

I agree that he didn't get enough development compared to the amount of importance he played in this latest episode.


I guess, the anime could have shown us his favourite color, food, flower etc etc sure... but I don't think it's that necessary.


I would agree with you more if the enemy would have been a human Rei, or if the Shephard is 100% Rei.

However Shin's brother died and everything died with him, except his obsession/deep regret of Shin. That's the Shephard Rei's main driving force, everything else is irrelevant for the machine counterpart. And this obsession/deep regret was nicely explored by those 2 flashback imo.
So for me he serves an okay first antagonist for the anime.

But I guess some more info about Shin's brother when he was alive would not have hurt.
 
Jun 7, 5:22 PM
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UTMAN said:
theGodde said:
as for Shin's expression, the issue is it can be interpreted a variety of ways. Before I went and asked on here, I thought he was either thinking "what is that?" or "my goodness I can't believe they're using that". All we can surmise from that is that the use of the arms was surprising, not necessarily unfamiliar. I thought about this a fair bit too much during the episode lmao.

Now you seem to have missed my point with the setting stuff (mainly because I rambled for 2-3 paragraphs about something and then made a completely different conclusion as I was basically reasoning as I was writing). My point was that they needed to make it more clear that this was also something new to the 86. It was a little too ambiguous for a piece of technology that very nearly decided the outcome of a battle.

As for the telepathy gear (yes I will keep calling it that -fight me), I was not criticising it at all, although it may have seemed that way. Wait... what did I actually say about it? Looking back I was originally going there with it and then I had this like 10 minute philosophy moment about how media representation of technology changes with time.
But yeah my main point was that the telepathy gear is a concept people don't understand so you have creative liberties with it. What you shouldn't have creative liberties with is... physics. Which is why I hate the spider mechs. [At least humanoid mechas are somewhat feasible because their legs are capable of supporting their body weight. Spider mechs have these tiny spindly legs - and because of physics (again, it's a little inconvenient all this logic and reasoning eh) weight increases greater than size increases, and I can assure you no futuristic skinny leg motor would be able to withstand the torque from the sheer weight of that big body and massive recoilless rifle.]

and yes I do have big problems with the mecha genre, which is why I'm not a massive fan of it (although sometimes I can appreciate the aesthetic - like with some of the better gundam entries and eva/pacific rim). I think this is a reason why a lot of people don't enjoy mecha anymore. It's because mecha anime keeps trying to tell more grounded and realistic stories that don't really sit well with the big boi human robots. (at least that's my take. I'm probably wrong though because behavioural science actually requires statistics and logical reasoning)


Hmmm I kinda can see your point. But if Shin had prior knowledge of those hands, he would have engaged close-combat a bit more carefully in my opinion. So that's why I thought it's more of a surprise coming from information that he did not have.

Also I still don't think it's necessary to reveal information there at that moment. Once again One Piece example. Shabody - Luffy vs Sentomaru. That's where Luffy is defeated by a Haki user and the concept of Haki came a lot later on. It can give you some sort of mystery to the story. But I can see that some people might be irritated of this kind of story telling.

Idk about telepathy. Telepathy is thought sharing/sending. You don't need to speak out loud in order to speak with each other. You can do it inside your minds. In the Para-raid's cause you speak out loud, you hear yourself speaking and that sense is shared with the other replicants. So I guess we can call it an artifical telepathy I guess. It doesn't really matter what's the base concept as long as we can accept the fact that it's okay to have this technology I guess.

Well I kinda find human-shape mechas unrealistic as well. But it's not to a point that it would hinder my enjoyement of it I guess? Also if you remember about the spired mech's legs, it was heavily emphasiszed in ep1 and in ep 9 that Shin keeps breaking them. So the physics is there.
what does "engaged in close combat a bit more carefully mean?" I don't know if you've noticed, but the direction during the mech fights is pretty average, just giving you enough continuity to follow what the mechs are doing while all the other shots are just "cinematic" shots of random vehicles and things involved in the battle. You wouldn't be able to tell at all how carefully shin is taking it if I'm honest.
Like I said before, all we needed was one line. ONE LINE of a character going "what's that?" and it'd be 100% clear to the entire audience what the arms are and you wouldn't have to over-analyse it like we are to come to a conclusion.

as for information drip, it's a little more complex because Sci-Fi and Fantasy (One Piece) have different requirements for how much information you need to reveal. Especially since sci-fi is often a lot about that technology. It can tend to play a major part in the combat (such as the mechs) and so the audience needs to understand how they work and what their limits are to be able to feel the full suspense.

But as for Shin breaking the legs, this doesn't excuse it at all. Every single joint needs a motor driving it, so why is the republic wasting vital resources creating mechs that are weaker and more fragile by design when it is actually easier to make mechs that are more stable and less fragile (like the legion ones that have massive legs). This is like shin shooting himself in the foot, and then because he complains about how his foot hurts, that justifies the decision to shoot himself in the foot.

UTMAN said:
theGodde said:
it's something the LN has an excuse for, since like you said it was originally written as a standalone. It could have been rewritten to expand the story and better flow with sequels, but that's not entirely necessary and I'm more than willing to let that pass with no consequences.

However the anime doesn't have that excuse. It shouldn't follow the LN to a T. The LN isn't perfect, and the adaptation arguably should be its own thing, able to stand on its own two feet even when the LN is taken out of the picture. If you see a glaring flaw in your source material (like criminally underwritten characters) then why not put in some time to fix this up. So far I haven't really seen anyone comment "this episode they added something that wasn't in the LN and I think it really improved the story" at all. Because the anime is following the LN so rigidly, it doesn't really get the chance to be its own thing. And that's a real shame to me because without the background of the LN this adaptation feels lifeless. It feels like a series of cool events that are being ticked off the LN checklist as they happen. And it's difficult to explain where in the direction this could be improved (I'll give it a rewatch once the series finishes and see if I can pinpoint what is making me feel this).


I kinda can agree with you here. Since the anime was written when the LN was already serialised. However there are a lot of liberties that the anime did regarding the adaptation. It does a lot of anime original scenes that you would not know if you didn't read the LN or was not told.
- The classroom scene in ep2
- Lecca and Daiya's death in ep 6
- Today's epiosode when Lena runs after them.

Also there are a lot of scenes and symbolism is added to the anime. Like the red flowers at the end of ep9, or when Lena writes the names of the 86. In the LN we just see Shin's perspective. The anime decided to add her to a Graveyard and portray you the harsh irony that every deceased ALba having a memorial, while 86-s don't even have a grave.

So there are some liberties taken, but they mostly for Lena or Shin's case. So I agree with you that aside from those 2, they don't have much character developement.

Also this is not something the anime can win. Because if it takes too much liberty, the LN readers will get angry. Some of them are already mad about the classroom scene. So you either get trashed by anime onlys, or LN readers.

I believe this all comes down to our difference that I read the LN while you don't. The anime is much more enjoyable when you read the LN next to it because in the LN there are more narration and you kinda can get a more full picture. Also the anime doesn't really tell you directly what's happening. It just puts it there and you need to find it and understand it. And if you don't know what to look it might be difficult. I personally rewatch every episode multiple times and read subredits that analyze each episode and people who are much smarter than me usually point out some of these hidden elemets which makes the anime even more enjoyable for me. Because of this I can see the dedication of the anime studio that took on the project.
a lot of liberties is not 3 scenes. Sure you might have missed more but that's beside my point. A good writer understands the source material well and why it does the things it does. They break down the source material and then create a new story that adheres to the original one in all the ways that matter, while changing and improving it so it flows better as an animated series.
What the showrunners have done is basically what M-Night Shamalan did with the Last Airbender Film but in a less extreme way. They decided that by following the LN to a T that's the best way to respect the source material. And therefore adapted every single plot point, every single element of 86 without pausing to consider if all of it was necessary. The trap of television is that you do have the time to relate every single detail - unlike with movies where you have to condense everything into 2/3 hours, and therefore you have to start to cut things out and blend things together for the adaptation to work. I am against 100% faithful adaptations because then it begs the question, why adapt it at all? If the story doesn't evolve or change during the transition to other media, all you are getting is a LN with sound and visuals. And then what's the point? Just go read the LN if you want the LN experience.

The anime should have been completely retimed and restructured so you don't have to read the LN to fully understand what's going on and you don't have to browse forums to get little details the show should have already given to you. This experience pushes anime onlys away from the series, which is really really dumb IMO. The reason why the anime is under so much scrutiny is because they set a precedent by adapting everything point-for-point in the first few episodes. If from the very start they had of adapted it by understanding the source material and creating something that parallels it rather than mirror it then sure a few LN readers would have grumbled *hurr durr the LN was better*. But overall it would have been a better and more entertaining show.

UTMAN said:
theGodde said:
-by far my favourite depiction of child soldiers is Gundam Frame: Iron Blooded Orphans. They feel like their childhoods have been stolen. You can really feel the cost of war on their lives. And that is what I was expecting with the 86. Just growing up in a concentration camp should change you enough that you stop acting like normal teenagers. These guys are holocaust survivors that then volunteered to go die on a battlefield. What kind of person lives like that and acts like a normal teenager?


I have not seen that anime, so i can't really make comments regarding to it.
This element is also represented in 86. Epiosde 3 lake scene, where the girls hear a slight noise and instantly pull their guns. Also theim being accustomed to death. Also the way they act is explained by them:

https://imgur.com/a/9LEe3UX

Also Raiden's comment about walking up to a gallow and choosing how they take the steps along the way. You can either be al gloomy and melancholic or try to enjoy the remaining time you left. Also keep in mind these are 4-5 year veterans. Idk if in that the people in IBO Gundam are newbies or veterans. If they were newly recruits who has to face these environment I would agree with you for acting too up-beat. Also this is just one squad on the whole front. There might be 86 who just can't accept this holocaust fate.
To quickly explain Iron Blooded Orphans to you (since it's such a great show that I 100% recommend you watch), it's about a group of orphans born in space. They have no human rights and so are taken in by a crooked protection + transportation company as basically slaves. Fed and provided the basic essentials, they're paid almost nothing and live in destitute poverty. Some of them pilot mechs and are part of the defence squadrons, but they're still treated as below that of the regular employed members. We're introduced to them after they've been in this life for a few years. A lot of them are kids and teenagers, chosen because they can be paid less than adults. The way they act and behave is pretty much what the 86 should be acting like. They try to treasure each day and live their cursed lives in happiness, but it feels fake. Because deep down they're fundamentally damaged and broken people. These are kids who should have grown up normally like everyone else, but are instead forced to kill and murder in order to survive.
I'm sure that once you watch Iron Blooded Orphans you'll understand more of what I came to expect from 86. It's not a perfect show, but it's a helluva lot better than 86.

That scene you imgur-ed I do remember clearly - because it felt fake and dumb. When it comes to exposition, it needs to be delivered clearly. But when it comes to human emotion, that needs to be delivered very carefully and nuanced. No one says "if you can't laugh anymore, you lose" in the middle of a party. That's because the way it's framed, the statement isn't aimed at the person he's talking to, it's aimed at the audience. He's telling the audience "if we don't laugh, then the Alba have won". No one presents an argument in the middle of a party. They should have kept it at that first line and it would have felt more natural. But the reason I say that is because right now I'm currently writing a dialogue scene in my own story, and I've spent many years analysing how to write good dialogue and watching video essays and things like that. All these quotes at the end of the day mean nothing if these kids don't sell to you that they're fighting in a war. Look at Saving Private Ryan. When they're not fighting, those guys are really chill and laid back, trying to enjoy every day. But you can always see the broken nature of a killer underneath them. And this element of depth is what is missing from 86. Yes, it makes sense that spearhead would try to be happy. But they should try to be happy DESPITE the war. Despite their scarred and damaged lives. I just don't feel the impact of war on their personalities and lives at all, which is a massive crime for a war story.
You can get the best possible soldier in the world, but he probably knows nothing about writing stories. Having a military guy advise on the story doesn't mean they'll get the characters right. And it especially is not a get out of jail free card for their poor characterisation.

now as for the science stuff, there were a ton of other problems I had with it but I've forgotten most of it because I've spent so much time arguing with people. This is something that will change when I rewatch the show.

now as for the soviet stuff, I'm not gonna quote you because we could get into this massive and epic history debate but this is not the place for it. I'll say this - Stalin was a bad general and was part of the reason the soviets got hurt as bad as they did. Whenever he stepped back and let his generals do their job, the soviets always had massive success (think operation Uranus). He is a politician, a dictator. So suffice to say the fool has no idea what he's talking about and I wouldn't take anything he has to say on the war seriously because a lot of it is damage control for his own failure. If he admitted that it was competent leadership that won the war, that would make him responsible for preventing this chain of command from working. So of course he's going to point at the kool tonks and ploines and say "hey they helped us win the war" because he's bringing attention away from his own incompetence. There's also the fact that he was probably trying to cushy up to the western powers at the time. Suffice to say - don't trust dictators and politicians because they're probably trying to manipulate the narrative and cover their own asses.
The soviets could not possibly have lost the war because of many reasons that people smarter than me have made
watch the potential history video (I do find the American accent grating but he knows his stuff): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9Frq_A6-0&list=PLORabbQ9zyFZVPRizFjfF7Kr867OydZC8 (it's a long series of video essays but worth it IMO)

all in all, 86 has a lot of flaws that could have been avoided if they hadn't copy and pasted the LN as their script and actually displayed some writing talent.
 
Jun 7, 5:31 PM
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UTMAN said:
I guess, the anime could have shown us his favourite color, food, flower etc etc sure... but I don't think it's that necessary.


I would agree with you more if the enemy would have been a human Rei, or if the Shephard is 100% Rei.

However Shin's brother died and everything died with him, except his obsession/deep regret of Shin. That's the Shephard Rei's main driving force, everything else is irrelevant for the machine counterpart. And this obsession/deep regret was nicely explored by those 2 flashback imo.
So for me he serves an okay first antagonist for the anime.

But I guess some more info about Shin's brother when he was alive would not have hurt.
Like I mentioned before, it's more about quality time than actual information. He's barely a presence in the story. He's not hyped up really in any way. We have no idea what kind of commander he was before he died. We have no idea if he was every really a force to be feared. We have no reason to fear him other than a cliche plot about wanting his brother to become an immortal machine so they don't have to suffer.

You have to admit that his demon slayer -esq realisation moment would have hit so much harder if we'd got more time with him. Hell, we know that dumbass military commander better than we know Rei, even though he doesn't really play a major part in this season.
 
 
Jun 7, 5:43 PM
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ulon said:
theGodde said:
No matter how many important people praise it, this will not eliminate its flaws - and based on the MAL review, a fair majority of people dislike this anime. It has 3-4 star reviews literally on the front page.


Oh god, are there still people who care about reviews? If a lot of people didn't like the show, it would have a score <6, with high percentages of drop (see the stats and their distribution).

It is already common on MAL that good shows have negative reviews as the most voted, since the only ones that give them relevance are the haters and their bots
whenever I go to check out a show I want to watch, I always check the negative reviews because I feel like it's necessary to get both sides of the story before jumping in. My friends find some really shit anime entertaining, and I have learnt from experience that I need to see both the fans and the haters opinions if I want to get a full view of the series. I usually also press the *helpful* button for reviews that had an effect on whether or not I decide to watch a series. This may make me seem to you to be a *bot* that supports the haters.

by far my favourite review section on MAL is FLCL, because you either understand the show and what it's trying to say - and give it a 9-10/10, or you don't understand it and feel like you just watched the animated equivalent of an acid trip, give it a 1-4/10, and then rage about how dumb the series is because some people like to *pretend* that it's smart but they know the *real truth*.

To me reviews accurately illustrate what kind of show it is. I'm watching Rurouni Kenshin now and I'm so glad I read the reviews first. I had hyped it way too much and the reviews lowered my expectations enough that when I got into watching it I knew there would be awful slapstick comedy and was able to wait it out to get to the incredible action and story.

So I doubt this show has been review bombed by bots. And I also doubt the mods have removed the 10 star reviews. I suspect that people like me are giving the negative reviews more weight because they are showing me a perspective on the series that 10 star reviews always leave out. This in turn is meaning that the negative reviews rise further in popularity and outshine the top reviews
 
Jun 7, 6:09 PM
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@theGodde About impact of war not being shown, maybe you got fooled by how bright the anime looks but there were so many indicators that at least showed how used to fighting and death the 86 had become. Right from the first episode, we have shin shooting a processor and Raiden asking him about his brother's voice, like shooting a teammate was an ad on tv or something. Or the scene where the female processors were playing in the water and upon a slight disturbance they all draw their weapons simultaneously.

And mostly the post death scene of kaie, after a single night thay all return to their cheerful selves and play/ have fun, I don't know about you but I can't see that as anything normal, the person you played cards with last night ends up dying and you just recover from that in a single nightand don't forget their age as well, teenaged children act that way... If that doesn't show how broken they were other scenes may show you as well.

At the time Daiya and another person died, Kurena is shown to be the other person's roommate, and what's her reaction? She makes a saddened face and invites others to a darts game, also Shin and Raiden talk about them dying like someone inviting them to go for a drink or something, all of that shows their numbness to death, isn't that what you wanted? Showing impact of war on them? In the most recent case, they talk about haruto dying and missing their death mission as a sad thing and he dies the previous day, also they were all about to go to their deaths with the 100% mortality mission with the brightest smiles they ever had, that's not showing you enough about their war torn mentality? And those are just the scenes I remember being odd and twisted.

Which soldier would have a happy face while being shot in the head or fall in love with the person who shoots every gravely injured person in the head? Don't those show how twisted their circumstances are? You talk as if iron blooded orphans shows the fakeness of happiness but 86 does that as well just that in 86 their happiness is genuine since they wholeheartedly live each day as if it's their last, if you look at what the characters say and act like, you can see how twisted they are compared to normal soldiers, and I'm not even comparing them to normal teenagers at this point... I'm not going to say you have to be emotional about those scenes (since that's very much subjective) but the information about impact of war was always there if you wanted to look for it.
Modified by kuu0haku, Jun 7, 6:21 PM
 
 
Jun 7, 6:28 PM
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kuu0haku said:
@theGodde About impact of war not being shown, maybe you got fooled by how bright the anime looks but there were so many indicators that at least showed how used to fighting and death the 86 had become. Right from the first episode, we have shin shooting a processor and Raiden asking him about his brother's voice, like shooting a teammate was an ad on tv or something. Or the scene where the female processors were playing in the water and upon a slight disturbance they all draw their weapons simultaneously.

And mostly the post death scene of kaie, after a single night thay all return to their cheerful selves and play/ have fun, I don't know about you but I can't see that as anything normal, the person you played cards with last night ends up dying and you just recover from that in a single nightand don't forget their age as well, teenaged children act that way... If that doesn't show how broken they were other scenes may show you as well.

At the time Daiya and another person died, Kurena is shown to be the other person's roommate, and what's her reaction? She makes a saddened face and invites others to a darts game, also Shin and Raiden talk about them dying like someone inviting them to go for a drink or something, all of that shows their numbness to death, isn't that what you wanted? Showing impact of war on them? In the most recent case, they talk about haruto dying and missing their death mission as a sad thing and he dies the previous day, also they were all about to go to their deaths with the 100% mortality mission with the brightest smiles they ever had, that's not showing you enough about their war torn mentality? And those are just the scenes I remember being odd and twisted.

Which soldier would have a happy face while being shot in the head or fall in love with the person who shoots every gravely injured person in the head? Don't those show how twisted their circumstances are? You talk as if iron blooded orphans shows the fakeness of happiness but 86 does that as well just that in 86 their happiness is genuine since they wholeheartedly live each day as if it's their last, if you look at what the characters say and act like, you can see how twisted they are compared to normal soldiers, and I'm not even comparing them to normal teenagers at this point... I'm not going to say you have to be emotional about those scenes (since that's very much subjective) but the information about impact of war was always there if you wanted to look for it.
while all this is true, that's all there is to it. I see a series of actions but we're not really shown any depth as to why they are acting this way. Their motivations are not deconstructed and it just feels kinda jarring. People acting happy when all their friends are dying is not realistic, even if they've made some kind of vow to remain happy no matter what happens. That's just not how people work. They aren't so much twisted compared to normal soldiers, they just straight up don't make any sense. I don't get the feeling these are veterans that are numb to war, I am instead communicated the feeling that these are kids who have poor characterisation.

Whether or not the LN handles this better I cannot answer. Perhaps it adds some extra context that fleshes out this surface level stuff, but even if it does, that does not redeem the anime itself. It's not as if the LN and the anime are the same story. They're not. They are two separate adaptations of the same story. You can't use the LN as an excuse to justify the anime. It has to be able to stand up on its own two feet - which in my opinion as someone who has never read the LN - it doesn't
 
Jun 7, 6:55 PM
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theGodde said:
kuu0haku said:
@theGodde About impact of war not being shown, maybe you got fooled by how bright the anime looks but there were so many indicators that at least showed how used to fighting and death the 86 had become. Right from the first episode, we have shin shooting a processor and Raiden asking him about his brother's voice, like shooting a teammate was an ad on tv or something. Or the scene where the female processors were playing in the water and upon a slight disturbance they all draw their weapons simultaneously.

And mostly the post death scene of kaie, after a single night thay all return to their cheerful selves and play/ have fun, I don't know about you but I can't see that as anything normal, the person you played cards with last night ends up dying and you just recover from that in a single nightand don't forget their age as well, teenaged children act that way... If that doesn't show how broken they were other scenes may show you as well.

At the time Daiya and another person died, Kurena is shown to be the other person's roommate, and what's her reaction? She makes a saddened face and invites others to a darts game, also Shin and Raiden talk about them dying like someone inviting them to go for a drink or something, all of that shows their numbness to death, isn't that what you wanted? Showing impact of war on them? In the most recent case, they talk about haruto dying and missing their death mission as a sad thing and he dies the previous day, also they were all about to go to their deaths with the 100% mortality mission with the brightest smiles they ever had, that's not showing you enough about their war torn mentality? And those are just the scenes I remember being odd and twisted.

Which soldier would have a happy face while being shot in the head or fall in love with the person who shoots every gravely injured person in the head? Don't those show how twisted their circumstances are? You talk as if iron blooded orphans shows the fakeness of happiness but 86 does that as well just that in 86 their happiness is genuine since they wholeheartedly live each day as if it's their last, if you look at what the characters say and act like, you can see how twisted they are compared to normal soldiers, and I'm not even comparing them to normal teenagers at this point... I'm not going to say you have to be emotional about those scenes (since that's very much subjective) but the information about impact of war was always there if you wanted to look for it.
while all this is true, that's all there is to it. I see a series of actions but we're not really shown any depth as to why they are acting this way. Their motivations are not deconstructed and it just feels kinda jarring. People acting happy when all their friends are dying is not realistic, even if they've made some kind of vow to remain happy no matter what happens. That's just not how people work. They aren't so much twisted compared to normal soldiers, they just straight up don't make any sense. I don't get the feeling these are veterans that are numb to war, I am instead communicated the feeling that these are kids who have poor characterisation.

Whether or not the LN handles this better I cannot answer. Perhaps it adds some extra context that fleshes out this surface level stuff, but even if it does, that does not redeem the anime itself. It's not as if the LN and the anime are the same story. They're not. They are two separate adaptations of the same story. You can't use the LN as an excuse to justify the anime. It has to be able to stand up on its own two feet - which in my opinion as someone who has never read the LN - it doesn't


Depth to why they are acting that way huh, I think them being veterans of 4 years on a battlefield of death or shin witnessing 500+ deaths (we can estimate the others saw atleast 100+ deaths in 4 years) and the fact that they have witnessed many deaths from 10 to 11 years of age is enough depth for me I guess, as for motivations, it's explained not that I'll ever understand their mindset or relate to it but the explanation is given. For me they never came across jarring or poor characters, and them not acting like normal people is what anime says to your face, they aren't normal, they aren't realistic in the normal world, in the 86th district they are made to fight a war where the only end is their death, in that scenario I can see a person maybe acting that way. Also I never brought up the ln tho... I just brought up the scenes that stood out as twisted to me.
 
Jun 7, 7:12 PM
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theGodde said:
ulon said:


Oh god, are there still people who care about reviews? If a lot of people didn't like the show, it would have a score <6, with high percentages of drop (see the stats and their distribution).

It is already common on MAL that good shows have negative reviews as the most voted, since the only ones that give them relevance are the haters and their bots
whenever I go to check out a show I want to watch, I always check the negative reviews because I feel like it's necessary to get both sides of the story before jumping in. My friends find some really shit anime entertaining, and I have learnt from experience that I need to see both the fans and the haters opinions if I want to get a full view of the series. I usually also press the *helpful* button for reviews that had an effect on whether or not I decide to watch a series. This may make me seem to you to be a *bot* that supports the haters.

by far my favourite review section on MAL is FLCL, because you either understand the show and what it's trying to say - and give it a 9-10/10, or you don't understand it and feel like you just watched the animated equivalent of an acid trip, give it a 1-4/10, and then rage about how dumb the series is because some people like to *pretend* that it's smart but they know the *real truth*.

To me reviews accurately illustrate what kind of show it is. I'm watching Rurouni Kenshin now and I'm so glad I read the reviews first. I had hyped it way too much and the reviews lowered my expectations enough that when I got into watching it I knew there would be awful slapstick comedy and was able to wait it out to get to the incredible action and story.

So I doubt this show has been review bombed by bots. And I also doubt the mods have removed the 10 star reviews. I suspect that people like me are giving the negative reviews more weight because they are showing me a perspective on the series that 10 star reviews always leave out. This in turn is meaning that the negative reviews rise further in popularity and outshine the top reviews
actual genuine reviews come after the whole anime is finished,monkey reviews come after watching 4 episodes those are just haters who can't see anything they will watch the shows just to find out flaws and will not pay attention as to why it's that way .and why would you believe a reviewer? you got your own internet and device,if you don't have time ofc you can but those are the things mainly seasonal watchers do.'' negative reviews outshine the top reviews.''okay out of 200k members on mal only 2k find the reviews helpful so you can say they are just haters brainwashed by the reviews.
 
Jun 7, 7:26 PM
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Reinaria said:
actual genuine reviews come after the whole anime is finished,monkey reviews come after watching 4 episodes those are just haters who can't see anything they will watch the shows just to find out flaws and will not pay attention as to why it's that way .and why would you believe a reviewer? you got your own internet and device,if you don't have time ofc you can but those are the things mainly seasonal watchers do.'' negative reviews outshine the top reviews.''okay out of 200k members on mal only 2k find the reviews helpful so you can say they are just haters brainwashed by the reviews.

it seems to me that you don't believe that initial impressions count as a valid criticism?
either way like you said, seasonal anime watches need these "monkey reviews" in order to make a decision which shows to prioritise. I'm watching at least half of all the seasonal anime airing now and whether or not I decide to pick up more seasonal anime on top of that wholly resides on the initial reviews.

it seems to me that you just dislike negative reviews. I could call the people who reviewed it with a 10 after the first four episodes "shills who are LN devotees and just want to inflate the MAL score". But I won't because that's stupid. No one hates for no reason. They gave a bad review because they didn't like the show, and they are perfectly entitled to not like the show. They are also allowed to stop watching whenever they want. Calling people brainwashed for paying attention to what you consider unfairly harsh criticism simply demonstrates a closed mindset.

I for one think that a lot of the criticism they gave was fair. The show takes a long time explaining basic world building elements. The first few episodes are slow and kind of bland. Characters other than Lena and Shin are sidelined and ignored.
 
Jun 7, 9:38 PM

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Damn what a freaking episode, i really liked it and how they ended it off!
 
Jun 7, 9:57 PM

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If the next episode picture hadn't popped up at the end of the episode, I would have thought this was the final episode!

Such a beautiful and tragic farewell because now Lena won't be able to talk communicate with them anymore.
 
 
Jun 8, 1:59 AM
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theGodde said:
what does "engaged in close combat a bit more carefully mean?" I don't know if you've noticed, but the direction during the mech fights is pretty average, just giving you enough continuity to follow what the mechs are doing while all the other shots are just "cinematic" shots of random vehicles and things involved in the battle. You wouldn't be able to tell at all how carefully shin is taking it if I'm honest.
Like I said before, all we needed was one line. ONE LINE of a character going "what's that?" and it'd be 100% clear to the entire audience what the arms are and you wouldn't have to over-analyse it like we are to come to a conclusion.

as for information drip, it's a little more complex because Sci-Fi and Fantasy (One Piece) have different requirements for how much information you need to reveal. Especially since sci-fi is often a lot about that technology. It can tend to play a major part in the combat (such as the mechs) and so the audience needs to understand how they work and what their limits are to be able to feel the full suspense.

But as for Shin breaking the legs, this doesn't excuse it at all. Every single joint needs a motor driving it, so why is the republic wasting vital resources creating mechs that are weaker and more fragile by design when it is actually easier to make mechs that are more stable and less fragile (like the legion ones that have massive legs). This is like shin shooting himself in the foot, and then because he complains about how his foot hurts, that justifies the decision to shoot himself in the foot.


When you are writing a story or animate/directing you have other tools for you to use next to dialog to convey information to the viewers.
There is a friend of mine, who basically when he watches anime he always needs some inner monologue or dialogue from characters so that he can know for certain what the character thinks.
However dialogue is not the only option for you. You can use facial expressions and body language, and 86 relies on these as much as dialogue.

If you watched this till ep 9 and paid attention, and since you are a former military person and also from a miliatry family, I'm certain that you could see Shin's and the Spearhead's fighting style and tactics now at this point.

When Shin is fighting against a heavily armored unit (Loewe) he always engages close combat to deal with them with either melee attacks or get to the part where the armor is the weakest.
He tried the very same tactics against the Shephard. He went in melee. Do you think if he were aware of the fact that the Shephard had those hands, (which counters heavily this fighting stlye as it very much did in the Anime. Shin lost immediately), would he had engaged in such manner? Or would have been more careful.

Well you were complaining that the phisics must be realistic and must be present. I was telling you that the phisics is there. They break, and it's commented on it. Ep1 and 9.

And on why they use this design? Well to use a more sturdy one, you would need well...more resources. The republic doesn't have it, You could try another design like a caterpillar, but that puts a heavy toll on mobility which makes me going back to the fighting style, these mechs suit the 86 fightign style perfectly. The way they fight is a Guerilla stlye warfare. Sturdier/heavier vehicles would have more trouble these rapid movements, also would be more difficult to put them on elevated positions, more chance for the ruined building to crumble under heavier weights. So basically these juggernauts are perfect for this sort of Guerilla stlye, where you keep moving between streets/buildings and lead the enemy into deadzones. This would be impossible with a caterpillar vehicle or more sturdy mechs. However in the second season there will be different type of mechs suitable for different type of warfares.

theGodde said:
a lot of liberties is not 3 scenes. Sure you might have missed more but that's beside my point. A good writer understands the source material well and why it does the things it does. They break down the source material and then create a new story that adheres to the original one in all the ways that matter, while changing and improving it so it flows better as an animated series.
What the showrunners have done is basically what M-Night Shamalan did with the Last Airbender Film but in a less extreme way. They decided that by following the LN to a T that's the best way to respect the source material. And therefore adapted every single plot point, every single element of 86 without pausing to consider if all of it was necessary. The trap of television is that you do have the time to relate every single detail - unlike with movies where you have to condense everything into 2/3 hours, and therefore you have to start to cut things out and blend things together for the adaptation to work. I am against 100% faithful adaptations because then it begs the question, why adapt it at all? If the story doesn't evolve or change during the transition to other media, all you are getting is a LN with sound and visuals. And then what's the point? Just go read the LN if you want the LN experience.

The anime should have been completely retimed and restructured so you don't have to read the LN to fully understand what's going on and you don't have to browse forums to get little details the show should have already given to you. This experience pushes anime onlys away from the series, which is really really dumb IMO. The reason why the anime is under so much scrutiny is because they set a precedent by adapting everything point-for-point in the first few episodes. If from the very start they had of adapted it by understanding the source material and creating something that parallels it rather than mirror it then sure a few LN readers would have grumbled *hurr durr the LN was better*. But overall it would have been a better and more entertaining show.


I mean I just only gave you 3 examples there are way more. Whole episode 6 (even the outside party, dance scene with Anju/Daiya) are anime original. Your main point that the anime carbon copies the LN. My point that this is not true. There are several anime original scenes in the anime.

I'm not the type of LN reader that tells you to go read the LN because it's "muh better". There are a lot of stuff that the anime does way better. In the LN Daiya/Lecca was killed offscreen. The anime gave it to you. And as I said I could go on in details how the anime/ln differs and what are the anime original content, but I'm afraid the post is long enough as it is.

You don't need to read the LN to fully enjoy the anime. That's not true. I don't know if you know what the "Show, don't tell" - technique is. 86 anime heavily relies on it. Which means if you watch the anime and you don't pay attention or don't think about what you saw, you are going to miss a lot of points. The anime doesn't give you information by exposition, but showing you with visual hints.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don%27t_tell
For example the anime won't tell you the mortars are 50% inefficent, but shows you:
https://imgur.com/CqqyKEe

Same goes that the 86-ers heavily rely on the Republic supply wise:

https://imgur.com/1wF5DZy

Same goes that most of the handlers are not doing their job efficently

https://imgur.com/E2mTlgm( you can hear laughing, swearing like goofing around)

And these are again only 3 examples, there are way more. These are stuff that you either notice, or miss. Most of the stuff people complain here about "plotholes" are stuff that they either totally missed or just the anime has not explained yet.

theGodde said:
That scene you imgur-ed I do remember clearly - because it felt fake and dumb. When it comes to exposition, it needs to be delivered clearly. But when it comes to human emotion, that needs to be delivered very carefully and nuanced. No one says "if you can't laugh anymore, you lose" in the middle of a party. That's because the way it's framed, the statement isn't aimed at the person he's talking to, it's aimed at the audience. He's telling the audience "if we don't laugh, then the Alba have won". No one presents an argument in the middle of a party. They should have kept it at that first line and it would have felt more natural. But the reason I say that is because right now I'm currently writing a dialogue scene in my own story, and I've spent many years analysing how to write good dialogue and watching video essays and things like that. All these quotes at the end of the day mean nothing if these kids don't sell to you that they're fighting in a war. Look at Saving Private Ryan. When they're not fighting, those guys are really chill and laid back, trying to enjoy every day. But you can always see the broken nature of a killer underneath them. And this element of depth is what is missing from 86. Yes, it makes sense that spearhead would try to be happy. But they should try to be happy DESPITE the war. Despite their scarred and damaged lives. I just don't feel the impact of war on their personalities and lives at all, which is a massive crime for a war story.
You can get the best possible soldier in the world, but he probably knows nothing about writing stories. Having a military guy advise on the story doesn't mean they'll get the characters right. And it especially is not a get out of jail free card for their poor characterisation.


Well the scene I imgured gave you a n explanation on why the characters act like that. There is a ideological war between the 86 and Republic. This conveys that.

No one presents an argument sure, he just saw Shin and Kaie glooming over something and he jokeingly commented on that with a sentence which has deeper meenings.

Well of course you can saw how war affects them. Ep3 lake scene portrays that perfectly. From the idle chatter, once they hear a single noise under 2-3 frames they pull their firearms and turn into combat mode. You can see from ep 1 to 4 how resentful they are for Lena. Basically the only person who was ever nice to them and they basically despised her. This was once again not told you, but showed with facial expressions. You could saw how racism affected them ,by turning them also into some sort of racist aswell. They dehumanize the alba by calling them pigs too.

And to your soviet stuff. Well if you can find studies that shows you that the Soviets could have won without US/UK lend leasing I'm all ears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ACv_4Sj7Q
But you know what? Can we all agree on even if the Soviets could have won without the US/UK lend leasing, the war would have costed way more than just 27 million USSR casulty?

Also my original point was never about arguing whether USSR could or could have not won the war etc...
But to point you out that incompetent leadership always was present in ur history awell. And you need something to happen to realise that they are incompetent. For the USSR it was that the Germany could march until Moscow.
So incompetent leadership always comes with a price that they will have to pay. The repuplic's time to pay will come too.

theGodde said:
Like I mentioned before, it's more about quality time than actual information. He's barely a presence in the story....

I fused the 2 together, I don't want to argue under 2 messages. :D

"We have no idea what kind of commander he was before he died. We have no idea if he was every really a force to be feared."

That's the main point. It's unknown and having to fight/face the unknown can be scareful as hell.
First of all we don't know what kind of commander/soilder he was because we never saw him in that position (except Lena for a short amount of time) SHin never knew him as a soilder, because the choking was before his drafting.

Lena was not on the front for a long time and would be unrealistic. You saw what 86-ers do to Anju who was half alba. Imagine what would they do to Lena if she remained there longer.

Also you know that he is a shephard. Anime gives you that Shephards are dangerous. He was the responsible of the railgun bombardment that killed 4 spearhead. Also gave you a scene where he annihilated single handedly a squad.

"would have hit so much harder if we'd got more time with him. "

Fair enough.
Modified by UTMAN, Jun 8, 3:47 AM
 
Jun 8, 2:03 AM
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certain people have way too much free time lmao. Writing whole essays for a single episode, not realizing they aren't going to change anyones mind here.

I'm guilty of wasting my time trying to explain things to speedwatchers but I have now realized the futility of it all. I suggest the simple enjoyers give up on the unenlightened, buy a juggernaut model kit to fund a second season and have fun building that and the little fido and lena(gotta paint these two though) it comes with like me. If you haven't caught up with the LNs go do that.
Modified by Neion4ty7, Jun 8, 2:42 AM
 
Jun 8, 2:26 AM
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Neion4ty7 said:
certain people have way too much free time lmao. Writing whole essays for a single episode, not realizing they aren't going to change anyones mind here.

I'm guilt of wasting my time trying to explain things to speedwatchers but I have now realized the futility of it all. I suggest the simple enjoyers give up on the unenlightened, buy a juggernaut model kit to fund a second season and have fun building that and the little fido and lena(gotta paint these two though) it comes with like me. If you haven't caught up with the LNs go do that.


Well as long as it helps me practice my english, writing and debate skills I don't think it's necessarily that bad. I personally enjoy having these talks with people. I'm also sure there are people who might enjoy reading them.

Also I fully support your second part of your post. :D
Modified by UTMAN, Jun 8, 9:54 AM
 
 
Jun 8, 3:20 AM
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Neion4ty7 said:
certain people have way too much free time lmao. Writing whole essays for a single episode, not realizing they aren't going to change anyones mind here.

I'm guilty of wasting my time trying to explain things to speedwatchers but I have now realized the futility of it all. I suggest the simple enjoyers give up on the unenlightened, buy a juggernaut model kit to fund a second season and have fun building that and the little fido and lena(gotta paint these two though) it comes with like me. If you haven't caught up with the LNs go do that.
I myself am currently writing a story that also happens to incorporate teenagers, dystopian futures, and other cool shit I personally like and enjoy

so if I am somehow completely wrong and everyone else thinks differently about film and media, then this means that no one will want to read anything I write, so I have a vested interest in figuring out whether or not what I consider to be good is seen as good by other people (and hopefully can somewhat be considered objectively good too). Also I like arguing with people about stuff.
 
Jun 8, 5:14 AM
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I'm going to do this response differently because I had a long think about stuff, and finally realised the one massive problem I have with this show. So instead I'm going to address that because in comparison most of what we've been talking about are nitpicks.

This all begins with the handlers goofing off scene that you mentioned in the third imgur pic (since I remember that scene vividly because it made me cringe). "Showing" your handlers walking around and saying "oh wasn't it great how we made our units charge to their deaths. It was so entertaining to watch those 86 pigs die!" is most definitely very strong demonstration of how incompetent they are. So strong that their responses not only sound like the main villains out of a braindead action shounen, but it also ruins one of the only times we see characters that stand in for the republic. These guys are one of the few background characters that get lines and personality. Whenever you give a faceless character lines and personality, it is always to be used as a stand in for a wider organisation. By having these characters being comically incompetent and evil, you are reflecting back onto the republic and suggesting it is comically incompetent and evil. It doesn't even matter if you can rationalise these people's viewpoints, because they don't represent people within the story, they represent the general attitude of the republic. For a show that's trying to be nuanced; trying to explore the themes of racism and genocide; trying hard to portray it in a realistic way; this is a massive oversight and one of the main reasons a lot of people dropped it after the first few episodes. I remember the early comments on episode 1 and 2 on MAL. Aside from the LN fans lavishing it in praise, most of the other comments were on how much they hated the republic because it was comically evil and incompetent. And I don't think it has recovered from this perception - even in my mind to this day.

now before you but in and go "well it is meant to be incompetent and kind of evil", I will counterpoint that by saying that in order for the entire moral dilemma of the 86 to make sense, the Republic needs to have a valid point. It's not enough that the 86 have fleshed out motivations and complex racial struggles if the true enemy of the show (not the legion because it's underdeveloped and boring), the Republic, don't have a strong reason for doing the things they're doing. By making the republic officers dumb evil dudes that are incompetent, it reduces the validity of any argument the Republic could make as a whole, since whatever justification they used - the result is an abysmal joke.

The thematic heart of the show - the moral dilemma of "How should you live when the world wants you dead?" took all the precedence over the looming question of "why does the world want you dead in the first place?" Which is fine for a one-off short story in a competition, but not for an edgy long running anime about racism.
Instead of criticising, let's take a moment to imagine what 86 would have been like if they had of done this. Imagine if the story invented a complex and completely relatable reason for why the 86 have to die - this would strengthen the theme of the show. You are going to die. You can't escape it. How should you live the remainder of your life?

I remember you saying that the LN focuses more on Shin over Lena compared to the anime, and I think that if the anime had of focused on Shin, then the theme about life facing inevitable death would have been more of a focus, and in so doing, would have thematically grounded the show, and given you a fulfilling message about our own lives and our own inevitable death. But instead I was trapped thinking about how none of this bullshit would be happening in the first place if the Republic wasn't so incompetent. Because the entire situation feels so forced and manufactured (because racism and moral ambiguity shouldn't be combined because then we would be placed in the mindset of a racist, and goodness knows if we learned to think and relate to them we might accidentally become them instead of... you know... maybe being more understanding of people with radically damaged worldviews), it robs the actual message of the show from the impact it arguably should have had.

My grandparents are racist. They're really, really racist. They still think of indigenous Australians as primal, uncultured cave dwellers and often use them as an insult to my siblings when we were kids to prove to us how messy we were eating or something like that. And that's awful. But at the same time they are genuinely really nice and caring people. This is why I hate it when racist people are portrayed as one dimensional evil guys - because I know racists and it's a lot more complex than that. Loie Theroux, a famous documentarist, spent a few weeks living with some Neo Nazis and it was very fascinating to pull apart their ideology and uncover the real, human motivations behind it.

The issue with this reductive view of the Republic is that it actually gives you a way out from confronting the main theme. If we're all going to die how should we live the remainder of our lives? Well 86 tells you - it wasn't even fair or logical that you are forced to die in the first place. Just blame whoever put you in this situation and don't come to terms with or accept the grim reality of life. Because ultimately no matter what you do, it was some dumb guy in a chair's fault for signing a piece of paper that enslaved your entire race and forced you to die.
 
Jun 8, 5:19 AM
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theGodde said:
I'm going to do this response differently because I had a long think about stuff, and finally realised the one massive problem I have with this show. So instead I'm going to address that because in comparison most of what we've been talking about are nitpicks.

This all begins with the handlers goofing off scene that you mentioned in the third imgur pic (since I remember that scene vividly because it made me cringe). "Showing" your handlers walking around and saying "oh wasn't it great how we made our units charge to their deaths. It was so entertaining to watch those 86 pigs die!" is most definitely very strong demonstration of how incompetent they are. So strong that their responses not only sound like the main villains out of a braindead action shounen, but it also ruins one of the only times we see characters that stand in for the republic. These guys are one of the few background characters that get lines and personality. Whenever you give a faceless character lines and personality, it is always to be used as a stand in for a wider organisation. By having these characters being comically incompetent and evil, you are reflecting back onto the republic and suggesting it is comically incompetent and evil. It doesn't even matter if you can rationalise these people's viewpoints, because they don't represent people within the story, they represent the general attitude of the republic. For a show that's trying to be nuanced; trying to explore the themes of racism and genocide; trying hard to portray it in a realistic way; this is a massive oversight and one of the main reasons a lot of people dropped it after the first few episodes. I remember the early comments on episode 1 and 2 on MAL. Aside from the LN fans lavishing it in praise, most of the other comments were on how much they hated the republic because it was comically evil and incompetent. And I don't think it has recovered from this perception - even in my mind to this day.

now before you but in and go "well it is meant to be incompetent and kind of evil", I will counterpoint that by saying that in order for the entire moral dilemma of the 86 to make sense, the Republic needs to have a valid point. It's not enough that the 86 have fleshed out motivations and complex racial struggles if the true enemy of the show (not the legion because it's underdeveloped and boring), the Republic, don't have a strong reason for doing the things they're doing. By making the republic officers dumb evil dudes that are incompetent, it reduces the validity of any argument the Republic could make as a whole, since whatever justification they used - the result is an abysmal joke.

The thematic heart of the show - the moral dilemma of "How should you live when the world wants you dead?" took all the precedence over the looming question of "why does the world want you dead in the first place?" Which is fine for a one-off short story in a competition, but not for an edgy long running anime about racism.
Instead of criticising, let's take a moment to imagine what 86 would have been like if they had of done this. Imagine if the story invented a complex and completely relatable reason for why the 86 have to die - this would strengthen the theme of the show. You are going to die. You can't escape it. How should you live the remainder of your life?

I remember you saying that the LN focuses more on Shin over Lena compared to the anime, and I think that if the anime had of focused on Shin, then the theme about life facing inevitable death would have been more of a focus, and in so doing, would have thematically grounded the show, and given you a fulfilling message about our own lives and our own inevitable death. But instead I was trapped thinking about how none of this bullshit would be happening in the first place if the Republic wasn't so incompetent. Because the entire situation feels so forced and manufactured (because racism and moral ambiguity shouldn't be combined because then we would be placed in the mindset of a racist, and goodness knows if we learned to think and relate to them we might accidentally become them instead of... you know... maybe being more understanding of people with radically damaged worldviews), it robs the actual message of the show from the impact it arguably should have had.

My grandparents are racist. They're really, really racist. They still think of indigenous Australians as primal, uncultured cave dwellers and often use them as an insult to my siblings when we were kids to prove to us how messy we were eating or something like that. And that's awful. But at the same time they are genuinely really nice and caring people. This is why I hate it when racist people are portrayed as one dimensional evil guys - because I know racists and it's a lot more complex than that. Loie Theroux, a famous documentarist, spent a few weeks living with some Neo Nazis and it was very fascinating to pull apart their ideology and uncover the real, human motivations behind it.

The issue with this reductive view of the Republic is that it actually gives you a way out from confronting the main theme. If we're all going to die how should we live the remainder of our lives? Well 86 tells you - it wasn't even fair or logical that you are forced to die in the first place. Just blame whoever put you in this situation and don't come to terms with or accept the grim reality of life. Because ultimately no matter what you do, it was some dumb guy in a chair's fault for signing a piece of paper that enslaved your entire race and forced you to die.
yeah realised you're probably not gonna see this unless I ping @UTMAN
 
Jun 8, 6:13 AM
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@theGodde

Yeah I just wanted to write to you, that next time ping me becasue I won't get any notification. :D Luckily you did.

Wow you wrote a lot and also brought up some new points into the table.

First of all I want to make this clear, that the anime's main plot is not about how a racist ideology can overtake a country and get to a path where they deem all other race of human "pigs" or in other words sub-human. If Asato Asato ever decides to write a prequel regarding this I would be more than happy, but the story focuses on a society where this ideology has already won.

In ep 1 and 2, about people complaining that the republic is comically evil and incompent just proves my point in my previous post that people who just watch this anime and don't think more into it are too fast to jump into conclusions.
There are multiple people in the Republic and in this 9 episodes you met a lot of represantatives.
- There is Lena - Alba who is against all of this, and actively tries to do against this
- There is Lena's uncle - Who knows that this is wrong, however he decides that his duty to do his job as a military officer is more important. Basically the "i was just following orders" dude.
- There is Anette - Who knows that this is wrong, but gave up due to social pressure and decided to look away
- There are the Soilders - they represent the Republic's goverment's ideals
- There are the common alba /student from ep 2 - They are just ignorant. Not necessary racist/evil. They either know what's happening, or don't. They don't give a flying flamingo until it's directly affects them.

Also you need to keep in mind that the story is happening after 8-9 years of the racist law introductions. There were people against it at the start. Raiden explained it. Alba Priest who took in Shin and his brother and refused to gave up his land, and there was a granny who hid Raiden from prosecution.

Also you raised an important question: "why does the world want you dead in the first place?" So basically your main issue is that you don't know why these racist laws took place. Why does the Republic does all this?
Well you need to look into real world history to find this out. The answer I can give to you is easy: Blame game.
Just as the Germans after ww1, started to blame the jewist west and the jews for the loss of WW1 and their struggle between the 2 WW-s, the Alba once lost their main force they started to shift the blame. The colorata who are former residents of the Giad empire (maker of the legion) is the reason why we are in war, losing and suffering.
And just as the US put the Japanese into interment camps, and Germany started to introduce anti-semite laws and concentration camps, a similar theme happened here.
And after 1-2 years after you started these forced conscriptions and misstreatments, you can't really go back and be like "oh sorry, i guess we were wrong?" So basically this is why they have to die. After 2 years the legion will turn off (in the heads of the republic) and after that there will be nothing to hold the 86-ers back. So when that happens the 86-ers can do whatever they want, also they are armed to teeth, also if for some chance other countries still alive and see what the Repuclic had done, it's going to be a problem.

"Which is fine for a one-off short story in a competition, but not for an edgy long running anime about racism."
The theme of racism is mostly LN1 material. 2nd cour will deal with different stuff. So fear not, this theme will be not that heavily represented in the 2nd cour.
If you looked at the Shin and his friends left the Republic and the 2nd cour (LN 2-3) will follow them rather than Lena. And it's not happening in the Republic.

As for your Grandparents. I mean I get it. Totally get it.
There is a series called Man in the High Castle. There is a gestapo officer whose job is to interrogate and kill spies and rebels and when he is done with his job he goes home and kisses his wife and daughters and have meaningful talks with his son. Before you attack me, I don't want to compare your grandparents to a gestapo officer. I realise that there are stories where this depiction is nice. However this story is not following a similar person, but Lena. The main focus of the story about being powerless in a society you hate to live in. Being unable to change the world and live and try to do better.

I'm 100% sure that your Grandparents are really nice people. But in Australia you guys never had a really fascist or racist or any really far-something ideology government in power. I am from Hungary.
After first world war in 1919, we had a communist regime (Kun Béla), then between the 2 WW-s an authoritarian government (Horthy Miklós), then a nazi far righ fascist called "nyilasok" lead by Szállasi Ferenc, and after we were "freed" by the USSR we got a heavy communist regime under Rákosi Mátyás. So under 50 years or so we experienced heavy communism and fascism. If you ever have the luxury or option to visit Hungary, you should check out the House of Terror museum. https://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/museum
It's not something you'll ever forget.

Also currently we have 2 far-right political parties, and one even managed to get into the parliement. They deny holocaust, they openly attack jews verbally even in the parliement. So you can imagine. Also in Eastern Hungary we have a lot of Romani people and the relations between Hungarian - Romani there, are really tense.
Modified by UTMAN, Jun 8, 6:56 AM
 
Jun 8, 7:09 AM
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UTMAN said:
First of all I want to make this clear, that the anime's main plot is not about how a racist ideology can overtake a country and get to a path where they deem all other race of human "pigs" or in other words sub-human. If Asato Asato ever decides to write a prequel regarding this I would be more than happy, but the story focuses on a society where this ideology has already won.

In ep 1 and 2, about people complaining that the republic is comically evil and incompent just proves my point in my previous post that people who just watch this anime and don't think more into it are too fast to jump into conclusions.
There are multiple people in the Republic and in this 9 episodes you met a lot of represantatives.
- There is Lena - Alba who is against all of this, and actively tries to do against this
- There is Lena's uncle - Who knows that this is wrong, however he decides that his duty to do his job as a military officer is more important. Basically the "i was just following orders" dude.
- There is Anette - Who knows that this is wrong, but gave up due to social pressure and decided to look away
- There are the Soilders - they represent the Republic's goverment's ideals
- There are the common alba /student from ep 2 - They are just ignorant. Not necessary racist/evil. They either know what's happening, or don't. They don't give a flying flamingo until it's directly affects them.

now you make some interesting points but you miss where I highlighted why we needed this backstory. Literally reread one of my old paragaphs
"now before you butt in and go "well it is meant to be incompetent and kind of evil", I will counterpoint that by saying that in order for the entire moral dilemma of the 86 to make sense, the Republic needs to have a valid point. It's not enough that the 86 have fleshed out motivations and complex racial struggles if the true enemy of the show, the Republic, don't have a strong reason for doing the things they're doing. By making the republic officers dumb evil dudes that are incompetent, it reduces the validity of any argument the Republic could make as a whole, since whatever justification they used - the result is an abysmal joke."

The fact is, this ideology exists and has to be introduced to the reader for them to even understand what on earth is going on in the Republic. I literally anticipated you would say this and rebutted your point. To add some extra explanation to this, all the people you have named (other than the soldiers) are victims of the ideology that we never really get explained. These are not people making the decisions, but have been forced into making these decisions or affected by them, due the society they live in. The only people we see really DOING the persecuting are a bunch of comically racist and inept soldiers. They are the ONLY representation of this ideology in the entire show.

UTMAN said:
Also you need to keep in mind that the story is happening after 8-9 years of the racist law introductions. There were people against it at the start. Raiden explained it. Alba Priest who took in Shin and his brother and refused to gave up his land, and there was a granny who hid Raiden from prosecution.
8 years is not a long time. Everyone who matters was alive to see it happen. Literally Germany started its shift in around 1933, and the war finished by 1945. So there were people who had followed along from the start with full knowledge of the entire escapade. 8 years is not an entire generation leap. Everyone who was old enough to understand what was going on then should still be raw and hurting from what happened. We should still be able to see the scars this shift took on the society. People should be missing loved ones. Friends, family - like Anette, which will in turn affect the general vibe of the community. You can't live in peace and happiness with the direct knowledge of the bodies it was buried on. That's the job for the next generation :)
But this doesn't mean we necessarily need more people to come out and talk at us. Like we were talking about before with "show don't tell", there are many visual clues throughout the series that tell you what kind of society this is. For one - the colour palette. The Republic is shown to us all nice and saturated. The colour grading really makes the republic feel peaceful and at ease. Very similar to the tone of our regular society. If you take a look at literally any WW2 Germany-based film, the colour palette is one of the first visual clues that unconsciously tell us that something is wrong. Before you see the bodies, you feel like something is amiss because the series communicates this with "show not tell". 86 Does not. The world of the republic feels jarring when compared to the events that led to its current form.

UTMAN said:
Also you raised an important question: "why does the world want you dead in the first place?" So basically your main issue is that you don't know why these racist laws took place. Why does the Republic does all this?
Well you need to look into real world history to find this out. The answer I can give to you is easy: Blame game.
Just as the Germans after ww1, started to blame the jewist west and the jews for the loss of WW1 and their struggle between the 2 WW-s, the Alba once lost their main force they started to shift the blame. The colorata who are former residents of the Giad empire (maker of the legion) is the reason why we are in war, losing and suffering.
And just as the US put the Japanese into interment camps, and Germany started to introduce anti-semite laws and concentration camps, a similar theme happened here.
And after 1-2 years after you started these forced conscriptions and misstreatments, you can't really go back and be like "oh sorry, i guess we were wrong?" So basically this is why they have to die. After 2 years the legion will turn off (in the heads of the republic) and after that there will be nothing to hold the 86-ers back. So when that happens the 86-ers can do whatever they want, also they are armed to teeth, also if for some chance other countries still alive and see what the Repuclic had done, it's going to be a problem.

I'm sorry but no. I should not have to do REAL WORLD HISTORY RESEARCH to understand AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE STORIES THEMES AND IDEAS. Fact is, I already know about a lot of these things because I'm a WW2 history buff, but most people don't - and shouldn't have to - to understand the show. I know what this show is going for, and all the real world history that it *could* be tied to. But the fact is that 86 doesn't actually include enough of its own past history to give us a proper setting and explain how on earth things managed to end up this way. Like I mentioned before - the question of why do they even have to die in the first place - is really important to the story because if there's a way out then you can't actually understand the main point of the series. It turns from a really fascinating take on acceptance of death and how it affects your life into "blame the dumb Alba who put them in this unfair situation". This is a really toxic thing to take away because the only substitute for the higher power of the Alba is God himself. Saying that God is evil and we should just blame him instead of dealing with the reality of death is just a bad and stupid way to live your life. And of course everyone knows that so no one is going to take any of the cool and interesting themes and ideas of the show away with them when they finish.

UTMAN said:
"Which is fine for a one-off short story in a competition, but not for an edgy long running anime about racism."
The theme of racism is mostly LN1 material. 2nd cour will deal with different stuff. So fear not, this theme will be not that heavily represented in the 2nd cour.
If you looked at the Shin and his friends left the Republic and the 2nd cour (LN 2-3) will follow them rather than Lena. And it's not happening in the Republic.

Well suffice to say I'm not exactly miffed that they're ignoring some of the core themes of the first LN and just going off in an entirely new direction. However this does bring me hope that they will fix the abysmal characterisation in this show. Lena was great to understand the world, but she really didn't have much of a unique personality apart from an insane drive to do the right thing. Shin was essentially just an edgy boi with oni-chan issues. However he has far more potential to be an interesting character than Lena because he's got such a rich history of suffering and persecution (probably shouldn't have used rich there lmao kinda gives the wrong impression). So I guess I'll just sit back and wait to see how it stacks up. It should be better considering the series is now written with the intention of being a series, which should dramatically improve the flow and overall consistency of 86. However that may not be the case. We'll see.

now as for the other racist stuff, that's fascinating and kind of distressing at the same time. I see people over on the Western-English side of the world laughing at these kinds of pathetic people who will do anything to justify their own morals so they don't have to accept that they might be wrong about things. But for you guys it's not a joke, it's a genuine reality and that is pretty scary when you think about it.

Overall - the series goes for a great message but it can't stick the landing because it didn't flesh out the context necessary to make this message work. I noticed it on an instinctive level and felt something was off. This along with the characters - that I still think are shit but will hold off all further criticism till I rewatch the series for greater clarity - are probably my two biggest problems with 86.
 
Jun 8, 9:06 AM
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theGodde said:
now you make some interesting points but you miss where I highlighted why we needed this backstory. Literally reread one of my old paragaphs
"now before you butt in and go "well it is meant to be incompetent and kind of evil", I will counterpoint that by saying that in order for the entire moral dilemma of the 86 to make sense, the Republic needs to have a valid point. It's not enough that the 86 have fleshed out motivations and complex racial struggles if the true enemy of the show, the Republic, don't have a strong reason for doing the things they're doing. By making the republic officers dumb evil dudes that are incompetent, it reduces the validity of any argument the Republic could make as a whole, since whatever justification they used - the result is an abysmal joke."

The fact is, this ideology exists and has to be introduced to the reader for them to even understand what on earth is going on in the Republic. I literally anticipated you would say this and rebutted your point. To add some extra explanation to this, all the people you have named (other than the soldiers) are victims of the ideology that we never really get explained. These are not people making the decisions, but have been forced into making these decisions or affected by them, due the society they live in. The only people we see really DOING the persecuting are a bunch of comically racist and inept soldiers. They are the ONLY representation of this ideology in the entire show.


I think we both kinda misunderstood each other's point. I don't think that the Republic is necessary a mustache twirling evil enemy. And by Republic I meant everybody except Lena. While when you talk about the Republic I think you mean the goverment itself I guess? Say if I'm wrong. Because I think there's a misundestandment between us.

"The only people we see really DOING the persecuting are a bunch of comically racist and inept soldiers. They are the ONLY representation of this ideology in the entire show."

Not necessary. You saw Anette do it, you heard Anette's father do it, and you saw the university teacher do it, and also you saw the university student to do it aswell.

The reason on why the 86 has to die, Lena's uncle anserws it for you in episode 8 when they talk in front of the Magnolia statue. If the world ever find out what they did, they'll think that the republic is a pariah state.
And on why? Well as I said I live in a country where 50 years ago if you didn't like what the supreme leader did things, and someone heard it, the next evening a black car would appear in front of your house and then you would never be seen.

theGodde said:
8 years is not a long time. Everyone who matters was alive to see it happen. Literally Germany started its shift in around 1933, and the war finished by 1945. So there were people who had followed along from the start with full knowledge of the entire escapade. 8 years is not an entire generation leap. Everyone who was old enough to understand what was going on then should still be raw and hurting from what happened. We should still be able to see the scars this shift took on the society. People should be missing loved ones. Friends, family - like Anette, which will in turn affect the general vibe of the community. You can't live in peace and happiness with the direct knowledge of the bodies it was buried on. That's the job for the next generation :)
But this doesn't mean we necessarily need more people to come out and talk at us. Like we were talking about before with "show don't tell", there are many visual clues throughout the series that tell you what kind of society this is. For one - the colour palette. The Republic is shown to us all nice and saturated. The colour grading really makes the republic feel peaceful and at ease. Very similar to the tone of our regular society. If you take a look at literally any WW2 Germany-based film, the colour palette is one of the first visual clues that unconsciously tell us that something is wrong. Before you see the bodies, you feel like something is amiss because the series communicates this with "show not tell". 86 Does not. The world of the republic feels jarring when compared to the events that led to its current form.


Depends on what. Germany went from "oh you silly jew, you can't go to university, and here wear this yellow badge" to "okay, full extermination. Final Solution." under that 8 years!

Also regarding the scars in the society, well the Anime explains this in the forementioned "show, don't tell" fashion. The story happens in the first district. There were basically little to no 86-ers there. So the vast majority of the alba there probably have never met or just saw once or twice a 86-er in their life.

Also I guess we could go into in really deep details on how and why and yada yada. But if you have followed the discussions as I have. People were already complaining that the anime is too slow paced. Imagine if they made it even slower.

But i give you a minor spoiler regarding the LN1.


Also the color palette is changing especially when Lena is in public as she gets more and more knowledge about the Republic's actions the colors grow darker:
Ep1
https://imgur.com/tkEMELw
Ep4
https://imgur.com/bRZ4RXP
ep7
https://imgur.com/kMZDXFE
ep9
https://imgur.com/HSZb1Fh


theGodde said:
I'm sorry but no. I should not have to do REAL WORLD HISTORY RESEARCH to understand AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE STORIES THEMES AND IDEAS. Fact is, I already know about a lot of these things because I'm a WW2 history buff, but most people don't - and shouldn't have to - to understand the show. I know what this show is going for, and all the real world history that it *could* be tied to. But the fact is that 86 doesn't actually include enough of its own past history to give us a proper setting and explain how on earth things managed to end up this way. Like I mentioned before - the question of why do they even have to die in the first place - is really important to the story because if there's a way out then you can't actually understand the main point of the series. It turns from a really fascinating take on acceptance of death and how it affects your life into "blame the dumb Alba who put them in this unfair situation". This is a really toxic thing to take away because the only substitute for the higher power of the Alba is God himself. Saying that God is evil and we should just blame him instead of dealing with the reality of death is just a bad and stupid way to live your life. And of course everyone knows that so no one is going to take any of the cool and interesting themes and ideas of the show away with them when they finish.


Well on the why they need to die, I only can repeat myself that Lena's uncle had told Lena and the audience why.
Also to be fair no amount of reason and explanation would change what you wrote: ""blame the dumb Alba who put them in this unfair situation"
I don't think any explanation that the anime/LN could give you that justifies this no matter the reason.
Let's say the 86-ers could rebel and defeat the Alba. Do you think it would be reasonable and justified if they did the very same thing as the Alba did to them?
Because for my part if let's say the 86 could switch the power system up, and they would start to idk execute civillians publicly I would be just as much disgusted as with how the Alba treats the 86-ers. And the 86 people have all the reason to repay this.

Also for the blame game, also a little bit of spoiler, I try not to give you any concrete info in the LN 2nd volume there is a character who gets angry and he starts thinking regarding to this matter. That it's so easy to just point out at something and shift all the blame on that something. And he compared himself to the Republic because he directs his anger onto something so he can process the anger more easily. idk if they will animate this in the anime, we'll have to see.

theGodde said:
Well suffice to say I'm not exactly miffed that they're ignoring some of the core themes of the first LN and just going off in an entirely new direction. However this does bring me hope that they will fix the abysmal characterisation in this show. Lena was great to understand the world, but she really didn't have much of a unique personality apart from an insane drive to do the right thing. Shin was essentially just an edgy boi with oni-chan issues. However he has far more potential to be an interesting character than Lena because he's got such a rich history of suffering and persecution (probably shouldn't have used rich there lmao kinda gives the wrong impression). So I guess I'll just sit back and wait to see how it stacks up. It should be better considering the series is now written with the intention of being a series, which should dramatically improve the flow and overall consistency of 86. However that may not be the case. We'll see.


They not necessary ignore and never talk about racism ever again. The theme will be there but not as the main focus of the story.
I agree with you on the characterization part. I don't think it's terrible though, but I also hope for more for the other 5 86-er to be in the spotlight more.

Lena was nice also had a nice character developement arc.
Naive princess who preaches---> Girl who tries to play by the rules but gets slapped by hard by reality ---> A woman who finally does what's right and acts no matter the consequences. I personally really loved her developement but for the moment she is done and I am also interested what's in for the rest of the cast. Especially as I told you the anme does some original conent many times, so I wonder what's coming next. This is one of the reason why the anime is still interesting for me even though I read the LN. So all in all I agree with you that if you don't count Lena, the rest of the cast have just a very basic amount of characterization and next to no character developement.

theGodde said:
now as for the other racist stuff, that's fascinating and kind of distressing at the same time. I see people over on the Western-English side of the world laughing at these kinds of pathetic people who will do anything to justify their own morals so they don't have to accept that they might be wrong about things. But for you guys it's not a joke, it's a genuine reality and that is pretty scary when you think about it.


Yeah I agree. Maybe this is why this anime is somewhat more relatable to me. I personally, thank god or anybody out there, not lived these events trough, but my parent's grandparents and their parents did. For example my mother's grandfather was sent to a conecntration camp and never came back.

Even though we didn't agree on most of the thing, I think we could find several common grounds and I really appreciate that. Also thanks for the talk, I had a great time discussing this anime with you. Also one of the next reason why I like this anime, because it encourages discussions and makes people to talk about it. Also if you decide to reply for me for one last time for the points I raised up here I'll read it. However I think I'm going to refrain myself from replying, not because I don't want to but I think we expropriated the the episode 9 discussion topic long enough and I think we kinda went waaaay off from discussing episode 9. (Also some people already complained that we have too much free time on our hand. lol) Cheers, I hope the remaining 2 episodes, rewatching and the 2nd cour will be able to change your opinion on this anime!
Modified by UTMAN, Jun 8, 10:27 AM
 
Jun 8, 9:47 AM
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Masterpiece light novel with a great adaptation, is all I can say
 
Jun 8, 10:36 AM
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@UTMAN
you are completely missing my point at every turn.

I'll start from the most important part - the main theme of the show: "Death is inevitable so how we live in that context matters" is ruined because you are given an evil and underdeveloped republic to place all of the blame onto. You as an audience don't have to accept that the main characters are going to die because it doesn't really feel like this situation ever happened for logical reasons in the first place.

All we needed was something in the first two episodes of the show contextualising the racism that the 86 face. What if the presentation Lena was giving that she got criticised for was actually on the history of the 86? That would have been a perfect setup and come at the perfect time to contextualise the show. But instead you literally have to use "my country has historical racism" as an excuse for why the show doesn't need to give essential context. Giving a tidbit of this essential explanation in episode 8 is just too late

Just because it wasn't a problem for you doesn't mean it's not a flaw. All your arguments in defence of the issues I've brought up are essentially "you're not wrong, but I don't see it that way".

If you can't think of a logical explanation to stop the blame falling onto the Alba, that's fine but it is definitely not impossible. Not even necessarily hard. give me a week to consider all the possibilities and I could easily come up with 100 different explanations.

Now as for the colour palette change, that is all complete BS. The only colour palette change that showed the world to look somewhat unsettling is the third one, and that is because during that moment in the story, Lena is currently feeling unsettled by how normal the society is compared to how messed up spearhead is. The very shot you are referencing is actually communicating the opposite about the people there.

As for the 86 rebelling and oppressing the Alba - from a certain moral standpoint, I think that you could look at that as justified. It'll trap the Alba and 86 in a cycle of revenge, but it is ultimately a justified, human revenge. I would much rather a story like that than the alternative viewpoint we get in 86 because it would be forced to explore the moral ambiguity of racism and revenge.

Anyhow, that was just a series of little rants. Remember my main point is that the show should have focused more on its core themes and ideals, and then restructured the story somewhat to support this. The choice to focus more on Lena on a surface level is a good one, but because our focus is split with more for Lena to do than Shin himself, we end up with not enough of either side fleshed out. Since the Alba stuff absolutely sucks I would have much preferred the somewhat more developed 86 viewpoint to have been explored a bit more. More time to flesh out the spearhead squadron characters and further incorporate the main themes. As it stands the show is a thematic mess because of the massive flaw of having a big evil republic that you can place all the blame on.
 
Jun 8, 11:45 AM
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theGodde said:

If you can't think of a logical explanation to stop the blame falling onto the Alba, that's fine but it is definitely not impossible. Not even necessarily hard. give me a week to consider all the possibilities and I could easily come up with 100 different explanations.


I'm pretty curious about this, if you really can give atleast one way alba can't be blamed for genociding 86, I'll be quite happy to consider it as a huge flaw. Because no matter how you humanise the decision of the govt and its people, I can't see them being excused for mass genocide of over millions of people or even human experimentation.

Well you can ignore my curiosity as well but since you told that you could tell a good way they can't be blamed, I just jumped into your discussion.

And I agree to your prior point about bad reviews, when you need to decide on something you need to see the critics and the praises to see what the anime/manga/novel/movie delivers, but critics of an ongoing series not even halfway done is not my criteria of criticism, the reason I brought this up is because I've been searching for criticism against 86, valid criticism not just pure hate or just subjective opinions or misunderstood concepts. I like this show quite a bit but I wanted to see it's bad points and what those were which is why I'm quite curious about your explanation about not blaming alba about genocide.
Modified by kuu0haku, Jun 8, 11:52 AM
 
 
Jun 8, 12:42 PM
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There are a lot of people who don't understand why Lena is running. I think it's the production crew's fault. The production team should have expressed enough to help viewers understand why Lena ran.

Viewers who didn't understand this would have been confused and couldn't concentrate on the highlights. That is, they would not have been able to enjoy fully the most important scene of 86 anime

Some people say the translator is wrong, but this is not related to subtitles.Even if the translator translated "Don't leave me behind," viewers would have been equally confused.

I wonder if the production crew considered what viewers would think while they were watching the anime.
 
 
Jun 8, 12:57 PM
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Roho119 said:
There are a lot of people who don't understand why Lena is running. I think it's the production crew's fault. The production team should have expressed enough to help viewers understand why Lena ran.

Viewers who didn't understand this would have been confused and couldn't concentrate on the highlights. That is, they would not have been able to enjoy fully the most important scene of 86 anime

Some people say the translator is wrong, but this is not related to subtitles.Even if the translator translated "Don't leave me behind," viewers would have been equally confused.

I wonder if the production crew considered what viewers would think while they were watching the anime.

My memory tells me this running part wasn't in the novel. It makes it unnecessary melodramatic
 
Jun 8, 3:35 PM
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kuu0haku said:
theGodde said:

If you can't think of a logical explanation to stop the blame falling onto the Alba, that's fine but it is definitely not impossible. Not even necessarily hard. give me a week to consider all the possibilities and I could easily come up with 100 different explanations.


I'm pretty curious about this, if you really can give atleast one way alba can't be blamed for genociding 86, I'll be quite happy to consider it as a huge flaw. Because no matter how you humanise the decision of the govt and its people, I can't see them being excused for mass genocide of over millions of people or even human experimentation.

Well you can ignore my curiosity as well but since you told that you could tell a good way they can't be blamed, I just jumped into your discussion.
there are many ways you can reduce their responsibilities, however it is impossible to fully prevent some... less intelligent users from drawing conclusions based on this poor situation.

first of all, have the Alba be actually competent and make the racism really subtle. This makes them respectable and therefore helps for my second change: make it so that the 86 are solely made up of refugees from the country the Legion is from (I forgot their name). Let's say that the Legion were killing everybody for quite a while and the Republic absolutely hated the people who created them because they were also a bunch of racist assholes who thought they were better than everyone else. So when the refugees of the Legion start coming in from that country they're like "hold up. You created this mess, you're going to get us out of it" and forced them to fight on the front. This way you can frame all the racism around this feeling of systematic abuse. These guys have a very solid reason to be racist and angry. You could also show negative examples of racism within the 86 themselves. Make it so all the adults hate the Alba and constantly talk down on them, but the kids who were too young to get that level of propaganda have a different and unique view - the view that we are introduced to the original 86 that I'm changing.
And if you want to be really smart, you could put it maybe 20-30 years in the future, and show that now after a generation of the tables being turned, their really good reason just doesn't seem that much of a good reason anymore. They've hated the 86 so long and treated them so badly that their reasons are starting to seem a little unfair and ridiculous. A lot of kids are being brought up in this new generation that never experienced the abuse the adults did at the hands of the 86, and so don't really have any reason to hate them other than propaganda. You can frame how this next generation is actually just like what the 86 were back in their heyday. You can use it to give a little demonstration about the inescapable reality of national racism. How it's this cycle of abuse and revenge, and the only way to break out of the cycle is to forgive.

however that would definitely require a major tonal shift in 86 and an inherent focus on Racism. Whether or not you could present this in a fully realised way without sacrificing your original core theme would be possible but difficult. Anyway is this reason as effective and relatable enough for you? I'm interested to find out
 
Jun 8, 4:09 PM
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Roho119 said:
There are a lot of people who don't understand why Lena is running. I think it's the production crew's fault. The production team should have expressed enough to help viewers understand why Lena ran.

Viewers who didn't understand this would have been confused and couldn't concentrate on the highlights. That is, they would not have been able to enjoy fully the most important scene of 86 anime

Some people say the translator is wrong, but this is not related to subtitles.Even if the translator translated "Don't leave me behind," viewers would have been equally confused.

I wonder if the production crew considered what viewers would think while they were watching the anime.
if I had to attribute it to anything, I'd say it's the fact that the display says "signal lost" rather than something like "warning: out of range". You have to do a fair amount of critical thinking to figure out that they're not dead, and it's just that the signal doesn't extend beyond that area. There were a few people in this comments section that got genuinely confused and thought they died.
It was a bit of a disjointed execution for me, but I could see what they were going for and respected that.
 
Jun 8, 10:27 PM
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Roho119 said:
There are a lot of people who don't understand why Lena is running. I think it's the production crew's fault. The production team should have expressed enough to help viewers understand why Lena ran.

Viewers who didn't understand this would have been confused and couldn't concentrate on the highlights. That is, they would not have been able to enjoy fully the most important scene of 86 anime

Some people say the translator is wrong, but this is not related to subtitles.Even if the translator translated "Don't leave me behind," viewers would have been equally confused.

I wonder if the production crew considered what viewers would think while they were watching the anime.


I thought the background chatter and the on screen map made it obvious they were going out of range and looking forward to seeing the buildings in the distance. Idk if they subbed all that though since i watch raw.
 
Jun 9, 12:42 AM
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@theGodde Even if it's the first reason you gave, it doesn't forgive the alba for the atrocities they committed in the 9 years of war, because they were in the wrong for pushing the 86 to genocide, and they made it even worse with human experimentation... you can't bring a third person in there and explain to them that 'we pushed the 86 to genocide and experimented on them because they were from the enemy state'. You can't expect the third person to go and say - 'that makes sense, you can't be completely blamed for the genocide of hundreds of thousands of people for that reason.' Here the blame still falls on the alba for pushing the 86 to genocide, so this can't be the solution.

As for the second reasoning, you're forgetting the background of the world, ie legion is waging a war and 86 are on frontlines, 86 won't exist in the world of 20 or 30 years to the future, so that really doesn't make sense, in order to make 86ers exist 20 years in the future we should change what 86 is from the beginning, like there is no war with legion at all or the war is not a threat at all, which would not even make the republic exile the other colorata as 86 so yeah, it's quite an improbable situation. Here, the premise itself is not possible, so this can't be the used as a reason as well.

So yeah, whether they are comically evil or they give the reason you gave, they are fully to blame for genocide and human experimentation, it still didn't stop the blame from falling on the alba, like you said it would.
Modified by kuu0haku, Jun 9, 1:05 AM
 
Jun 9, 1:01 AM
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theGodde said:
Roho119 said:
There are a lot of people who don't understand why Lena is running. I think it's the production crew's fault. The production team should have expressed enough to help viewers understand why Lena ran.

Viewers who didn't understand this would have been confused and couldn't concentrate on the highlights. That is, they would not have been able to enjoy fully the most important scene of 86 anime

Some people say the translator is wrong, but this is not related to subtitles.Even if the translator translated "Don't leave me behind," viewers would have been equally confused.

I wonder if the production crew considered what viewers would think while they were watching the anime.
if I had to attribute it to anything, I'd say it's the fact that the display says "signal lost" rather than something like "warning: out of range". You have to do a fair amount of critical thnking to figure out that they're not dead, and it's just that the signal doesn't extend beyond that area. There were a few people in this comments section that got genuinely confused and thought they died.
It was a bit of a disjointed execution for me, but I could see what they were going for and respected that.

I don't think you require much critical thinking cause you can clearly see those who are dead labeled as "destroyed".And they themselves said that they are outside of 86 district and then Para-RAID got disconnected. And if you follow dialogues and screen map it is obvious that they are moving forward and going out of range so Lena must be running to stay connected.
 
Jun 9, 1:57 AM
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Pranavk27 said:
theGodde said:
if I had to attribute it to anything, I'd say it's the fact that the display says "signal lost" rather than something like "warning: out of range". You have to do a fair amount of critical thnking to figure out that they're not dead, and it's just that the signal doesn't extend beyond that area. There were a few people in this comments section that got genuinely confused and thought they died.
It was a bit of a disjointed execution for me, but I could see what they were going for and respected that.

I don't think you require much critical thinking cause you can clearly see those who are dead labeled as "destroyed".And they themselves said that they are outside of 86 district and then Para-RAID got disconnected. And if you follow dialogues and screen map it is obvious that they are moving forward and going out of range so Lena must be running to stay connected.
You see that requires actual thinking and taking the time to read screens that aren't always the focus of the shot. I'm not saying I found it confusing, but it wasn't exactly intuitive to figure out. I can easily see how a less perceptive viewer would completely miss the context of what's going on
 
Jun 9, 2:21 AM
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kuu0haku said:
@theGodde Even if it's the first reason you gave, it doesn't forgive the alba for the atrocities they committed in the 9 years of war, because they were in the wrong for pushing the 86 to genocide, and they made it even worse with human experimentation... you can't bring a third person in there and explain to them that 'we pushed the 86 to genocide and experimented on them because they were from the enemy state'. You can't expect the third person to go and say - 'that makes sense, you can't be completely blamed for the genocide of hundreds of thousands of people for that reason.' Here the blame still falls on the alba for pushing the 86 to genocide, so this can't be the solution.
And this is why I said a less perceptive viewer would still classify things in wrong and right. The fact is that it all depends on the execution. Where you focus your story. If you begin by demonstrating just how shitty the Colorata are, then show how they then flee to the Republic, and then show how the Republic arrived at the chain of reasoning to make the 86 fight for them, then you could easily set the Alba up as a sympathetic race taking rightful revenge. It's 50% setup, and 50% execution. With good execution you could even make the current shitty backstory work with the themes. Also notice how I said that in this theoretical adaptation they would tone down the racism. Basically forget the entirety of the current Alba and how they operate because that all wouldn't work with this new theoretical version.

kuu0haku said:
As for the second reasoning, you're forgetting the background of the world, ie legion is waging a war and 86 are on frontlines, 86 won't exist in the world of 20 or 30 years to the future, so that really doesn't make sense, in order to make 86ers exist 20 years in the future we should change what 86 is from the beginning, like there is no war with legion at all or the war is not a threat at all, which would not even make the republic exile the other colorata as 86 so yeah, it's quite an improbable situation. Here, the premise itself is not possible, so this can't be the used as a reason as well...
You guys really don't understand that all this world building isn't set in stone right? People seem to get stuck in the internal logic of a world and forget that someone did make it and can easily tweak and change the world building. It wouldn't even be hard to make the legion continue to be relevant 20-30 years in the future.

Now I would like to remind you that this is a quick suggestion I came up with in half an hour. This pathetic attempt at crafting an alternate option is not the be all and the end all of the story. You also don't want me to succeed, and even go so far as to impose the story's internal logic onto these theoretical suggestions and claim that they wouldn't work even though every aspect of the story is theoretically subject to change.

What makes up 86, what in my opinion cannot be changed is this: the 86 are forced to fight and die for the Alba, but the spearhead squadron take this information on, and instead of becoming bitter about it, use this morality to shape their life in a positive way and strive to accomplish some good in the world by fighting an insurmountable odd. That is the heart of 86. Ideally the story should be set up to support this, but as we've stated before it currently does not.

In fact, the Alba don't even need to be justified in order for this to work. As long as they're not incompetent, and it feels like the 86 really are pinned and have no escape, as if they really have no other choice but to fight and die - then the themes would work. Currently the biggest plothole is that the 86 can just rebel and slap up the entire capitol for revenge. They justify this by saying "they have the option to but choose to be brave instead", but like I mentioned this actually reduces the core theme of the story. By making their deaths a choice, it just makes them seem stupid. And sure you could argue that that would result in their death - but they're going to die anyway, what's to stop them from taking their revenge? You can't tell me that all the 86 share this same opinion. You don't put up with years of being called "86 pigs" and literally being thrown around the battlefield by an incompetent handler basically playing a satanic run of the sims, and still just brush it off. The fact that they completely ignore this side of the argument and rationalise it out of the way the second it's brought up just reduces the actual impact of their choice to stay and fight.

If everyone agreed to solve world hunger, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. It is a big deal because some people refuse to solve world hunger and actively prioritise their own pockets or some desire/ideology instead is what makes the people who actually do prioritise world hunger that much more admirable. Sure cake tastes nice. But how much better would it taste after being force fed literally shit for 6 months. It would taste absolutely glorious. In the same way spearhead's decision doesn't really carry much weight because it doesn't feel like they ever really contemplated any other possibility before coming to this conclusion. This can be fixed by good writing, but in the absence of that, removing this as an option effectively relegates them to their death and therefore strengthens and focuses the main themes of the show.
 
Jun 9, 2:39 AM
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[quote=theGodde message=63425915]
kuu0haku said:
@theGodde

Currently the biggest plothole is that the 86 can just rebel and slap up the entire capitol for revenge.



Idk im pretty sure the anime stated that there is no point in rebelling, as they just die either to the minefields or the artillery,(like have you seen how powerfull those are in ep 9 ) of the gran mur or get destroyed by the legion because they run out of supply for their mechs that come from the republic. I give you that the anime hasnt realy established how big the gran mur is (here is a depiction from the manga adaptation:https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/86/Chapter+11/003.jpg) but I dont see how they can "just" rebel, as I dont see how they can even get thru that wal in their shit mechs if they can even reach itl.
Modified by Ich_bin_einBaum, Jun 9, 2:43 AM
 
 
Jun 9, 3:02 AM
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[quote=Ich_bin_einBaum message=63426036]
theGodde said:
kuu0haku said:
@theGodde

Currently the biggest plothole is that the 86 can just rebel and slap up the entire capitol for revenge.



Idk im pretty sure the anime stated that there is no point in rebelling, as they just die either to the minefields or the artillery,(like have you seen how powerfull those are in ep 9 ) of the gran mur or get destroyed by the legion because they run out of supply for their mechs that come from the republic. I give you that the anime hasnt realy established how big the gran mur is (here is a depiction from the manga adaptation:https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/86/Chapter+11/003.jpg) but I dont see how they can "just" rebel, as I dont see how they can even get thru that wal in their shit mechs if they can even reach itl.
you see, I disregard this because the anime doesn't consider it at all. All you see is the incompetence of the Alba and the feeling that there really isn't anything holding the 86 back from just rampaging. The mines aren't showcased until episode 9, the one we're discussing, so they aren't even relevant during the main point in time in which the anime needed to answer this question. The fact that the Alba have this much defensive power really would solve this entire issue, but it isn't communicated at all. They say the Alba's cannons are really powerful but we haven't even seen them. In the first four or five episodes, I thought they were just straight up lying about the cannons and weren't using them because they were actually broken the whole time. That is how bad the anime is at establishing the strength of the Alba.

It doesn't matter what the truth of the matter is. What matters is what the audience knows and believes. If the majority of the audience is getting tonal dissonance because the themes aren't focused probably due to a world building omission, then it doesn't make a difference whether than piece of world building is there or not if you don't include it when it was necessary.
It's like having a pair of shoes, but never wearing them. Whenever anyone complains about how you walk barefoot, you can tell them you do have shoes, you just decided not to wear them. That is the equivalent of the world building in 86. It's there but not mentioned at the times when it is necessary.
 
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