86--EIGHTY-SIX (light novel)
DO NOT discuss the source material beyond this episode. If you want to discuss future events or theories, please use separate threads.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
UTMAN said: Albi-kun said: That's irrelevant. Fishmen symbolize minorities. They don't have to be human for us to get the idea. That doesn't change the fact what I've wrote. It's not irrelevant. This is why I told you One Piece took the "safe route". Also in 86 there is racism within the 86-ers, there is nothing like that in One Piece. But keep dodging the topics. It kinda makes it obvious that you have no idea what the show is about. I think I am stating the obvious, but the amount of nuance, detail and the reality of how racism goes both ways is splendly done in 86, to the point where I can count on the fingers of a single hand the amount of anime I have seen doing those so well. And of course none of the mainstream shounens. They get into some darker topics from time to time, but they barely graze the surface because the target demographic of young boys doesn't allow such complexity. |
Albi-kun said: Leonhart93 said: I wasn't talking about the ones that died at all, we have like 7 characters that have a much larger focus and are still alive. But anyway, I watched other anime this season and while I appreciate some specific ones a lot, none of them made me tingly every week to watch the episode like 86 did and then very disappointed when 20 minutes felt like an instant 😌. And I am mainly a character driven watcher, they matter to me a lot more that stuff like plot or world-building (although those are nice too). Wasn't I talking about characters just now?! Which other anime are you watching this season? Nah man, you completely misread that. I meant to say that since I am a particularly character driven watcher (as in I get excited the most when I see people I can learn stuff from) you can be certain I paid the largest amount of attention to characters. And therefore my decision to put 86 the crown jewel of the season in that category was very deliberate, and not on a whim. |
UTMAN said: Albi-kun said: That's irrelevant. Fishmen symbolize minorities. They don't have to be human for us to get the idea. That doesn't change the fact what I've wrote. It's not irrelevant. This is why I told you One Piece took the "safe route". Also in 86 there is racism within the 86-ers, there is nothing like that in One Piece. But keep dodging the topics. It kinda makes it obvious that you have no idea what the show is about. It's not the "safe route". It's just the way racism became part of the story. One Piece covers many types of discrimination too. What about the Celestial Dragons?! |
aightbet said: Piromysl said: Then they made a poor job conveying it, because even one of 86 was concerned about her risking her eyesight. This scene stil made her look evil. Trust me, I do see where you are coming from, but I disagree. When Lena connected her vision to Raiden's vision, Raiden bursted out mentioning that Handlers don't connect their visions to the 86 because there is a risk of the handler going blind. To me, I don't think that the scene made Lena look evil, but honestly made it feel like Lena is finally acting as a proper general perhaps? In my mind, the military always has generals often talking down to their subordinates in a sly/manipulative/almost forceful manner. The line Lena said to Raiden was that Lena herself did not want to die, seemed like a classic tsundere-jokey line, however it does hold truth. Remember that Shin also told Lena in the episodes prior to this to never forget about him and the rest of the spearhead squadron, and to also survive. That's pretty interesting but in order to discard this theory completely, I'd like you to answer those two questions: 1. Is there any meaning behind Henrietta suddenly starting wearing glasses? 2. Are Henrietta's reddish eyes a result of her emotional instability, light saturation, or actually favour she did to Lena?  One way or the other, her resorting to that sort of emotional manipulation is evil and her wanting 86 for herself doesn't really put her in a good light. There was also an obvious implication, that she started to develop a feelings for Shin. Even Henrietta called her a "devil", afterall. And don't get me wrong, it's not w bad thing, because I wouldn't want to watch another predictable Mary Sue. This show is indeed a masterpiece. |
 |
UTMAN said: Albi-kun said: It's not the "safe route". It's just the way racism became part of the story. One Piece covers many types of discrimination too. What about the Celestial Dragons?! I get that it became a part of the story, but it's just that. It's not really detailed. The anime just put it there. Racism because Humans > non-humans. Why? Just because Humans> Non-Humans. Nothing really deep into it. And as I said before I don't think it's a bad depiction. Also the way it shows that the fishmen can't really go into Shabody, also the blood transplant and some minor stuff that's tosssed there was interesting. But it never went deep. And as I said there is nothing wrong with that. The Celestial Dragons is also quite interesting, imo it's a bit better than the Fishmen/Human relations. But I would not call that racism. It's more like a divison between classes. Like noble/commoner, rich/poor. etc. 86 has some really minor staff regarding this and it's not really the major point like the racism. You're getting too technical about the fishmen discrimination. We're talking semantics here. It's the same thing as racism. Racism doesn't have any logic either, it's about the color of the skin. |
UTMAN said: Albi-kun said: You're getting too technical about the fishmen discrimination. We're talking semantics here. It's the same thing as racism. Racism doesn't have any logic either, it's about the color of the skin. Because you want to treat racism like it's some very simple thing. It's not. Racism can happen because of: - Diffent skin colour - (White/Balck issues in USA) - Different language/ethnicity (Germans were killing white german jews aswell with same skin color, or their hatred of slavs who are also white) - Different race - sci-fi/fantasy movies where there are actually different races (One Piece) - Different Religion (Palestine/Israel) Also these can go into: - Invidiual - Interpesonal - Institutional - Structural 86 goes into all of this: - Invidiual - Lena hates her own race/Albas because of their mistreatment of other races. Basically an own guilt. - Interpesonal - Comments regarding other 86-ers by Albas, or 86-ers the Albas, or between 86-ers themselves (Anju, Shin and Haruto by being imperial/alba descendants) - Institutional - having anti-colorata laws, concentration camps etc. - Structural - the whole Army / republic's system deported and force conscripted the 86-ers. This is not just a simple topic as you want to make it out be. One piece only scratches the topic of racism. What I'm saying is that racism comes fundamentally from differences. Whether it's skin color differences (our world) or species differences (One Piece) |
| shin in his coo coo mode uh oh wish they'd show a bit more fight before lena showed up but that was SO good they did that scene wonderfully. actually they've done everything wonderfully but i was really waiting for that scene and im so glad they did great on it. MMRRRHH THE ILLUSTRATION WHERE LITTLE LENA AND SHIN'S BROTHER WERE TOGETHER BEFORE THEY BOMBED HIM WAS SOOOO !!! and the scene after that too oh my GOD this is bad im rly loving this adaptation ill start seeing only the good things about it and come blind to the bad's last scene after the battle was great too. them casually talking as if they're in a lounge while heading into a battlefield even stronger than the ones they've went to before. lena running miles purely full from adrenaline, them coming across red flowers that are near lena and as they cut the para-raid, the flower petals flow off |
| Evil Major is something we need more of lol. She was great. I'm surprised they've already taken out the brother by episode 9. I thought that would be at the end. I really REALLY hope the ending of the series is the Major meeting them. |
| Yuritopia FTW!!!!!!!!! BANZAI TO YURI !!!!!!!!!!!! |
Albi-kun said: aightbet said: Liking a story is of course subjective. Just like I find your rating of Naruto being a 10/10 quite funny, I still respect it if that's the type of show you enjoy. I believe this show has explored the theme of forced conscription within a lens of a somewhat WWII type racism to be very well done and explored. The character development of Lena especially in the past 9 episodes was absolutely beautiful and breathtaking. Lena went from a character I was not too fond of in the beginning few episodes to progressively becoming my most loved character in the space of 9, wonderfully directed and presented episodes. The pacing of this story was one of my highlights of this show as well as how engaging it felt to see both alternating perspectives of the lives of Lena and the 86. That being said, it is not my call to make you like a certain show if you do not like it. However, unlike you I do not barrage episode discussions by repeating the same rhetoric over and over in hopes to make other people not like this show. You may discuss your displeasure once, you may discuss it twice, maybe even three times. But continuously arguing with people who actually like the show or bringing this dead topic back to life over and over again is childish. Let people like what they like, you don't have to propagate your hatred to others, you only make yourself look like a troll. Can you please tell me what changed about Lena so much that made you change your view of her? She's basically the same. Always trying to help, with good intentions in mind. Just because the 86 didn't acknowledge her and now they do, it doesn't mean she has changed. What's with all the Naruto hate by the way? Everyone is mentioning Naruto to me like it's some shit show. I've only commented twice on this show, the others are just responses to other people. I see, I do apologise if my comment was too harsh, looking back it does look so to me. Sorry about that. I will write a fairly lengthy piece of text explaining my perspective about the character of Lena, because I feel like her character is greatly misunderstood by many. So, with the development of Lena being in mind, when Lena was first shown to us, it was clear that she played the role of being an idealistic and overtly naive character in an anime about war and discrimination. This was the character trope the writer of this story had essentially given Lena to perform, and she performed this role magnificently. Her idealism of what her country stands for and should accomplish was almost obnoxious and felt incredibly childish, and her advocacy for the 86 almost felt like it was merely a show of disgusting pity to the 86 people with regards to what her country was ACTUALLY doing to the 86. Of course at first glance, these aspects of Lena made it so that it was difficult for the audience to really like or connect with her as she was so disconnected with the reality of the 86's situation, and this is something the spearhead squadron themselves also felt. Now a key aspect of Lena's character in the beginning I want to highlight is how trustful she is of what she sees, or is told. Lena at first was seen to be unable to have adequate critical thinking behind the information she learns about whether by her own eyes or ears. Her naivety is reflected by how she is very quick to believe or take things as fact the moment she learns about them, and this is namely seen in two separate occasions. The first one is when Lena interacts with Shourei (Shin's brother) when she was young, and the second is her blind trust of her government's word on reinstating the citizenship of the 86 after 5 full years of military service. The first point I want to explore is of Shourei's reason of fighting which was shown in episode 3 of the anime when Lena was speaking with Kaie. Lena, who was rescued by Shourei when her father took her to the battlefield had learned of why Shourei fights. And what Shourei says to Lena is "We are members of the Republic. We were born here and grew up here. It's a citizen's duty to protect his country. I'm proud to do it. That's why we fight". Lena, after learning this is seemingly misguided by Shourei's reasoning of fighting and applies this 'fight principle' to all members of the 86. In essence this was one of the first signs where we saw Lena's naiveness and innocence working in full course. This is despite the context that Lena already knows of the 86 which is that they are forcefully conscripted into military service, her blind trust and closed view of her own thoughts, values, and ideals blinded her into honestly believing that the 86 actually fight for such a virtuous cause, and depicts her incapability to critically think behind why the 86 are actually fighting given the context she already knows. The second case of Lena's obnoxious virtuousness and naivety can be seen in her blind trust of the Republic's word that the reinstatement of the 86's citizenship is guaranteed after the 5 years of military service they are forced to do. And yet again, we see that her lack of critical thinking given the context that she knows that the 86 are not even referred to as humans by the educators, policy makers, high ranking generals, and population of the Republic. How would the 86 actually be given 'human rights' and citizenship when said people have literally been taken as an example of beings that have 'failed to evolve'? This shows yet again Lena's innocence and naivety concerning her ideals. The anime topples each of these cases by putting Lena in situations where she is under immense pressure by the 86, and forced to change her justifications and beliefs in order to conform with the realities of her own country and this 'blood-less' war, and most of all opens up her previously tunnel vision virtuousness and lip service advocacy into something much more respectable and meaningful. It is also in these situations where we, the audience, see Lena's growth by how she actively reshapes her fundamental ideals and turning into a character that does not remain only idealistic but also has an ounce of realist principles and is capable of dealing with these changes and events accordingly. To keep this short, I will continue using the two cases of Lena's display of her naivety previously to show how Lena develops as a character. If you remember in the manner Lena talked to the spearhead squadron until episode 3, one can argue that Lena herself, despite her strong views of acknowledging the 86 as humans and citizens of the Republic, has herself been impacted by the indoctrination of the Republic's views on those who are of not pure-blooded Albas. This is something that was interesting because it serves as a direct juxtaposition between Lena's beliefs and actions. So how were her conversational mannerisms ironic when engaging with the 86? It was simple, Lena did not even think about asking the real names of the people she is talking to. No, instead however, she unconsciously chose to continue using the spearhead squadron's member's codenames instead. This was yet again remarkable when you consider the fact that Lena asked for the name of the cat who lives with the squadron but not even have the thought of asking the real names of the very people she is conversing with. Referring to people with codenames instead of their actual names serves as a way to dehumanise a person by taking their very identity away, and is a prime example of Lena's unconscious mannerisms she may had picked up on during her time working as a handler, and not directly handed real names of the processors she is commanding, OR may also be a result of the Alba-centric education she had been given as well as surrounded by people sharing the Alba supremacist viewpoint. Either way though, this unbeknownst way of identification of hers served as the piece that made Lena's idealism ironic and collapses onto itself when she is exposed to the very harsh, but true words of Theo's exposition of holes in her virtue signalling mind and lip service advocacy. During Theo's outburst is when we, the audience, can see for ourselves that Lena's two ideals that, (1) the 86 fight to protect the Republic and (2) 86 should be treated as human beings, come crumbling down as Lena is in denial of her own actions as she realises how her fundamental idealistic principles failed to resonate with the spearhead squadron despite her projecting of virtuousness in an almost disgustingly pitiful way was not only insulting, but also ironic. After Theo's outburst, Lena comes to understand this and realise her shortcomings. We can also see for ourselves that Lena makes great efforts into truthfully understanding the 86, and to not continue being blinded by her idealisms that have stemmed since her childhood. We see that she truly wants to become a better person, she understands her mistakes and decides to grow on this by asking for the real names of the spearhead squadron's member's. The first case showed an aspect of how Lena developed as a character from her perspective of morals and ethics, and now comes the development of Lena from realist fundamentals within the second case. As explained previously, the second case of Lena ironically trusting what her government says about granting citizenship to the 86 once their 5 year military service is over despite fully knowing that the country themselves have never once referred to the 86 as actual human beings serves as an ideal that is broken when the spearhead squadron finally expose what the spearhead squadron's role actually is within the war. Which is of course, the final execution ground to the most elite of the 86 soldiers who have continuously survived and are coming dangerously close to their 5 year term limit. This case represents the final breaking point of Lena's ideals of her country, military, people, and government that comes shattering down when she finally understands that her previous protests to her superior by rank, uncle, to add new soldiers to the now diminishing spearhead squadron had been completely futile, and served as the key to opening her locked close-sighted view. This is also the time when Lena can finally think critically, something that I mentioned early in this text to be a key attribute she lacked in previous to the event of the second case. It is here when we finally see Lena transition to someone who no longer just listens and follows orders, but to become radical, and to finally disobey the authority that had been holding her back in helping the 86 all this time. This was the final wake-up call for Lena, and what a wake-up it was, with her blackmailing her best friend (well currently not best friends I guess at this point in time) to sharing vision between the handler and 86 soldier and to take control of the artillery launch. Over the course of 9 episodes we saw a slow, but progressing change in Lena's mindset, and method of showing advocacy and support to the 86 by becoming much more radical, and particularly frightening. Just taking these two cases alone we have seen an incredible change of old Lena and present Lena. We can see that the Lena at present is much more fitting to being a leader. She is able to think critically, think radically, use underhanded means to take charge of a situation and act according to her beliefs. We have seen her transition into an arguably cutesy, shallow, ultra-idealistic, ironic, and follower-type character into a character now with great depth, radical ability, leadership skills, and sacrificing some of her ideals in favour of seeing the broader picture. The real picture. You made the comment that "She's basically the same. Always trying to help, with good intentions in mind." And I have to say, you are correct. She is still the same, but that is a good thing. Her character from the very beginning was set to supporting and advocating for the 86, to help with whatever that is needed to keep the 86 alive. But rather than focusing on how Lena develops with regards to her emotions regarding the 86, to truly evaluate Lena's character development you need to take into account HOW her mindset changes, how she comes to terms with her flawed idealism, how she becomes a leader, how she comes to better understand the 86, how she transitioned into merely performing lip service to the 86 becoming a radical with her means of supporting the 86, how she is now able to think critically as compared to conforming to her ideals and naivety. I believe this is the way to see Lena's development, which is why I believe Lena is a very well written character. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk. Anyways, regarding your Naruto thing. No, I don't think Naruto is shit at all, only MAL elitists would probably say such a thing. However, I personally would not give it a 10/10. That being said, this doesn't mean you are obviously wrong for giving it a 10. If you loved the show, you loved the show man. |
Piromysl said: aightbet said: Trust me, I do see where you are coming from, but I disagree. When Lena connected her vision to Raiden's vision, Raiden bursted out mentioning that Handlers don't connect their visions to the 86 because there is a risk of the handler going blind. To me, I don't think that the scene made Lena look evil, but honestly made it feel like Lena is finally acting as a proper general perhaps? In my mind, the military always has generals often talking down to their subordinates in a sly/manipulative/almost forceful manner. The line Lena said to Raiden was that Lena herself did not want to die, seemed like a classic tsundere-jokey line, however it does hold truth. Remember that Shin also told Lena in the episodes prior to this to never forget about him and the rest of the spearhead squadron, and to also survive. That's pretty interesting but in order to discard this theory completely, I'd like you to answer those two questions: 1. Is there any meaning behind Henrietta suddenly starting wearing glasses? 2. Are Henrietta's reddish eyes a result of her emotional instability, light saturation, or actually favour she did to Lena? One way or the other, her resorting to that sort of emotional manipulation is evil and her wanting 86 for herself doesn't really put her in a good light. There was also an obvious implication, that she started to develop a feelings for Shin. Even Henrietta called her a "devil", afterall. And don't get me wrong, it's not w bad thing, because I wouldn't want to watch another predictable Mary Sue. This show is indeed a masterpiece. Hmmm, I mean you do point the glasses thing out but to me I think you are drastically overthinking it. Again, Lena did not risk Annete's eyesight to being damaged at all. The damage to eyesight is only felt by the handler. Annete could just have glasses because she simply needs glasses like many people cause genetics, don't forget that the majority of her job is to look at a computer pretty much all day, which can be discomforting to her eyes. I never really saw any red in her eyes which you've mentioned. But yeah you are probably right that Annete is emotionally unstable, after all she was pretty much blackmailed by Lena, but well, if the show was to not end here, had to be done right? |
aightbet said: Piromysl said: That's pretty interesting but in order to discard this theory completely, I'd like you to answer those two questions: 1. Is there any meaning behind Henrietta suddenly starting wearing glasses? 2. Are Henrietta's reddish eyes a result of her emotional instability, light saturation, or actually favour she did to Lena? One way or the other, her resorting to that sort of emotional manipulation is evil and her wanting 86 for herself doesn't really put her in a good light. There was also an obvious implication, that she started to develop a feelings for Shin. Even Henrietta called her a "devil", afterall. And don't get me wrong, it's not w bad thing, because I wouldn't want to watch another predictable Mary Sue. This show is indeed a masterpiece. Hmmm, I mean you do point the glasses thing out but to me I think you are drastically overthinking it. Again, Lena did not risk Annete's eyesight to being damaged at all. The damage to eyesight is only felt by the handler. Annete could just have glasses because she simply needs glasses like many people cause genetics, don't forget that the majority of her job is to look at a computer pretty much all day, which can be discomforting to her eyes. I never really saw any red in her eyes which you've mentioned. But yeah you are probably right that Annete is emotionally unstable, after all she was pretty much blackmailed by Lena, but well, if the show was to not end here, had to be done right? Yea, the plot thickens and I'm wonder that she'll do now that Shin and the rest have deserted. Character development incoming. |
|
Yuuki_Otakuu said: My god what a great episode it was very good was the best of this show so far, and it seems that the people died or something like that I could tell by the flowers. They didn't die, and I'm certain they won't (at least not all of them) the flowers can mean other things. But they are now beyond the reach of the Republic, and the delightful irony of their final command is, so long as they keep gathering information they are fulfilling their orders. |
| Quantum ille canis est in fenestra |
| from 8 to 9 what a treat was this episode every cell in my body is brimming with joy and a bit of sadness. |
| My favorite episode so far since Lena finally did something besides walk around whining to her superiors. A little guilt and some action....boom.....she finally did something concrete and positive. Good stuff. Hopefully she won't emo out for the rest of the episodes while the 86 folk actually do something. |
 |
| This episode was epic. 1st half was great and the 2nd half took an unexpected turn. Sawano coming up with a new banger ost everytime. |
| This happens when you upset kindhearted people. Lena's comeback from last episode, where everyone threw dirt at her... it was just great! Didn't understand why sharing eyesight would cause blindness, but whatever the mortar action was awesome, although 52% didn't explode, the Legions were mowed down. The military must really suck when that wasn't attempted before. Even when they never saw the need to really attack the Legion on their own, it looked like lots of fun XD On first watch I didn't understand the end of the episode. I thought they were moving towards the Replublic borders when they mentioned that building and death flowers. I expected them to die with some screwed device from the military like self destruction or whatever. Fortunately nothing happened and no one stopped them from walking into their "freedom". |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| errr...so where did they go? to the unchartered borderlands!? lolz 3/5. |
 |
| God knows how I want to love this show like any of you do, but this episode was anticlimatic for me. I genuinely loved the previous episodes and kinda expecting more in the conclusion. The decisive battle between Shin and his brother ended too quickly that I find it greatly lacking of luster, not to mention the usage of literal representations of Shourei's (more accurately, the legion's) thought of holding onto Shin with the robot's molding that should've been metaphorical is honestly unappealing. That isn't what I am expecting, given that they teased an intriguing post-credit scene last episode. I might or might not read the light novel if I ever found a reason to. Nevertheless, the dedication in the whole production of 86 is evident and for that reason alone does this show deserved every bit of praises it is getting. 2 more episodes to go! |
suzuyakennJun 7, 2021 7:17 AM
I love K-On, and so should you.  |
More topics from this board
Poll: » 86 Episode 5 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )Stark700 - May 8, 2021 |
242 |
by ILLARX
»»
Yesterday, 1:00 PM |
|
Poll: » 86 Episode 1 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Apr 10, 2021 |
380 |
by LotteGiants
»»
Apr 14, 10:42 PM |
|
Poll: » 86 Episode 11 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Jun 19, 2021 |
430 |
by grizmuth
»»
Apr 5, 5:57 PM |
|
» 86 LN starts its Final Arc with the next Light Novel volume 14.darksideee - Jan 11 |
24 |
by SSRSyt
»»
Apr 3, 10:22 PM |
|
Poll: » 86 Episode 2 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Apr 17, 2021 |
259 |
by ILLARX
»»
Apr 2, 12:00 PM |