Would Erwin agree with Eren?

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Jan 2016

51

Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

Jan 17, 2021 12:31 PM

#11

GreenKoala

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Mar 2013

5

I don't really think Erwin would side with Eren on the rumbling and stuff. Actually, I don't believe he'd act much different from Hange on how to deal with the whole situation.

Jan 17, 2021 2:28 PM

#12

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Dec 2019

161

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Jan 17, 2021 2:56 PM

#13

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Jan 2016

51

Vinicius234 said:

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

Jan 17, 2021 5:49 PM

#14

Roowanx

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May 2017

214

No. It's literally implied twice that Erwin wouldn't side with Eren.

Jan 17, 2021 7:12 PM

#15

Lifyy

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Sep 2020

2477

I don't think so,he would have killed 1/4 of the survey corps

Jan 17, 2021 8:51 PM

#16

CUM_enjoyer

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Jul 2016

110

i don't really agree that characters that thought they knew erwin saying "he wouldn't do that" implies he wouldn't side with eren. Erwin wouldn't have sacrificed all those people just so they could all get bombed by a bunch of fucks that screwed them over for years. He'd be with eren all the way.

Jan 18, 2021 3:23 AM

#17

Roowanx

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May 2017

214

Anime_Biscuit said:
i don't really agree that characters that thought they knew erwin saying "he wouldn't do that" implies he wouldn't side with eren. Erwin wouldn't have sacrificed all those people just so they could all get bombed by a bunch of fucks that screwed them over for years. He'd be with eren all the way.

"characters that thought they knew Erwin" what??! Levi and Hange were the closest people to him, and so they obviously know him best and what he would do.. Otherwise what's the point in having both of them think the same thing about him? Just to make them look like clowns? I don't really think so. Also Erwin didn't sacrifice people for Paradis' sake (it's one of the reasons maybe but it was never his priority), he even said it himself that his dream was selfish and that he just wanted to go to the basement to prove that his father's theories were correct. Honestly I think that if Erwin was alive the rumbling wouldn't have even happened because he would most likely feed Eren to someone else as soon as he started acting suspicious.

Jan 18, 2021 7:32 AM

#18

kuraidai

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Dec 2013

351

I think we need to first consider why Eren is doing what he is doing. He didn’t consult many people about the rumbling because he knew they wouldn’t agree. But if someone like Erwin was still in the picture, maybe he’d be willing to discuss more because Erwin is a strategist that can ignore his humanity when he needs to, unlike Armin who is always conscious of his morality (even when he manipulates people, he is aware). That’s not to say Erwin isn’t aware, of course he is, but it’s not the first thing on his mind. The only time that was the case was in his final fight, and that’s because he knew his time was up.

Now if Eren did have the opportunity to discuss with Erwin, whether that’s voluntarily or kinda forced by Erwin, I think Erwin would take Eren’s thoughts seriously. He would consider the rumbling as well as other possibilities on how to deal with Marley. We saw for ourselves during the Uprising Arc how Erwin was more than prepared to fight other humans. The rest of the cast had to develop into the role of killing humans rather than titans. Erwin always knew humans were the enemies too. Erwin also possessed fantastic diplomatic skills and working with (or deciphering) other nations like Hizuru would have been an easy challenge for him.

As for mass genocide, I think if Erwin is pushed to a point where he has no choice, he may just have to opt for it, but he may not like it. Eren himself isn’t happy with it either, but he claims there was no other choice. Though I do believe Erwin would only kill for self defence, as is already evident throughout the story, whereas Eren has literally been murdering innocent people. So essentially Erwin may agree with Eren but will offer a less violent approach to victory and freedom,

Tldr; Erwin would side with Eren but will suggest alternative and less murderous approaches.

Jan 18, 2021 8:20 AM

#19

I_Am_Freeballing

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Oct 2020

2066

I hope Isayama answers this question from his POV someday.

Jan 18, 2021 8:39 AM

#20

keragamming

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Oct 2013

12257

I_Am_Freeballing said:
I hope Isayama answers this question from his POV someday.

I would rather he left it for interpretation, to not disappoint Erwin fans.

Jan 18, 2021 10:32 AM

#21

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Dec 2019

161

KuraiDaiAnime said:
I think we need to first consider why Eren is doing what he is doing. He didn’t consult many people about the rumbling because he knew they wouldn’t agree. But if someone like Erwin was still in the picture, maybe he’d be willing to discuss more because Erwin is a strategist that can ignore his humanity when he needs to, unlike Armin who is always conscious of his morality (even when he manipulates people, he is aware). That’s not to say Erwin isn’t aware, of course he is, but it’s not the first thing on his mind. The only time that was the case was in his final fight, and that’s because he knew his time was up.

Now if Eren did have the opportunity to discuss with Erwin, whether that’s voluntarily or kinda forced by Erwin, I think Erwin would take Eren’s thoughts seriously. He would consider the rumbling as well as other possibilities on how to deal with Marley. We saw for ourselves during the Uprising Arc how Erwin was more than prepared to fight other humans. The rest of the cast had to develop into the role of killing humans rather than titans. Erwin always knew humans were the enemies too. Erwin also possessed fantastic diplomatic skills and working with (or deciphering) other nations like Hizuru would have been an easy challenge for him.

As for mass genocide, I think if Erwin is pushed to a point where he has no choice, he may just have to opt for it, but he may not like it. Eren himself isn’t happy with it either, but he claims there was no other choice. Though I do believe Erwin would only kill for self defence, as is already evident throughout the story, whereas Eren has literally been murdering innocent people. So essentially Erwin may agree with Eren but will offer a less violent approach to victory and freedom,

Tldr; Erwin would side with Eren but will suggest alternative and less murderous approaches.

Basically what i believe too based on characters actions and lore, what is portrayed, not tell through our throats by a character like hange. I was re reading levis recalling and in no way he directly asserted he would agree with their suicidal act, just that he believes armins shares his eyes or vision, which i disagree completely with based on their actions and their demeanors... even in the same chapter their portrayals are different.

Jan 18, 2021 10:33 AM

#22

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Dec 2019

161

keragamming said:

I_Am_Freeballing said:
I hope Isayama answers this question from his POV someday.

I would rather he left it for interpretation, to not disappoint Erwin fans.

If armin dies without fulling his shoes, i will take it as an indirect answer.

Jan 18, 2021 10:47 AM

#23

kuraidai

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Dec 2013

351

Vinicius234 said:

KuraiDaiAnime said:
I think we need to first consider why Eren is doing what he is doing. He didn’t consult many people about the rumbling because he knew they wouldn’t agree. But if someone like Erwin was still in the picture, maybe he’d be willing to discuss more because Erwin is a strategist that can ignore his humanity when he needs to, unlike Armin who is always conscious of his morality (even when he manipulates people, he is aware). That’s not to say Erwin isn’t aware, of course he is, but it’s not the first thing on his mind. The only time that was the case was in his final fight, and that’s because he knew his time was up.

Now if Eren did have the opportunity to discuss with Erwin, whether that’s voluntarily or kinda forced by Erwin, I think Erwin would take Eren’s thoughts seriously. He would consider the rumbling as well as other possibilities on how to deal with Marley. We saw for ourselves during the Uprising Arc how Erwin was more than prepared to fight other humans. The rest of the cast had to develop into the role of killing humans rather than titans. Erwin always knew humans were the enemies too. Erwin also possessed fantastic diplomatic skills and working with (or deciphering) other nations like Hizuru would have been an easy challenge for him.

As for mass genocide, I think if Erwin is pushed to a point where he has no choice, he may just have to opt for it, but he may not like it. Eren himself isn’t happy with it either, but he claims there was no other choice. Though I do believe Erwin would only kill for self defence, as is already evident throughout the story, whereas Eren has literally been murdering innocent people. So essentially Erwin may agree with Eren but will offer a less violent approach to victory and freedom,

Tldr; Erwin would side with Eren but will suggest alternative and less murderous approaches.

Basically what i believe too based on characters actions and lore, what is portrayed, not tell through our throats by a character like hange. I was re reading levis recalling and in no way he directly asserted he would agree with their suicidal act, just that he believes armins shares his eyes or vision, which i disagree completely with based on their actions and their demeanors... even in the same chapter their portrayals are different.

Just to clarify, you mean the latest chap 136 is what you re-read regarding Levi? And that Levi believes Armin shares Erwin's vision?

If so yeah I agree with you. They are quite different as characters. Back when they were making the decision between the two, I could see similarities, and I do for sure, but since then Armin never became Erwin and that's a good thing. Even Hange and Levi debunked that when Armin woke up and asked if he was to be a replacement. It was established then that he isn't Erwin and would never be. The only thing that makes them similar is being able to think logically in intense situations, however the ways in which they do so are very different. Erwin wouldn't think twice sacrificing people but Armin would. Erwin is also similar to post time skip Eren in the sense that he tends not to give away too much of his plan. He just orders the survey corps to do something and they have to follow orders even if they don't fully understand. Armin on the other hand explains exactly what he is thinking and that's how he gained his reputation for being a strategist. That's another reason for me thinking that Erwin probably would side with Eren to some extent at least. And even if he does end up disagreeing with him and joins the alliance, he'd come up with an actual plan rather than winging it (pun not intended lol).

Jan 18, 2021 11:19 AM

#24

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Dec 2019

161

KuraiDaiAnime said:

Vinicius234 said:

Basically what i believe too based on characters actions and lore, what is portrayed, not tell through our throats by a character like hange. I was re reading levis recalling and in no way he directly asserted he would agree with their suicidal act, just that he believes armins shares his eyes or vision, which i disagree completely with based on their actions and their demeanors... even in the same chapter their portrayals are different.

Just to clarify, you mean the latest chap 136 is what you re-read regarding Levi? And that Levi believes Armin shares Erwin's vision?

If so yeah I agree with you. They are quite different as characters. Back when they were making the decision between the two, I could see similarities, and I do for sure, but since then Armin never became Erwin and that's a good thing. Even Hange and Levi debunked that when Armin woke up and asked if he was to be a replacement. It was established then that he isn't Erwin and would never be. The only thing that makes them similar is being able to think logically in intense situations, however the ways in which they do so are very different. Erwin wouldn't think twice sacrificing people but Armin would. Erwin is also similar to post time skip Eren in the sense that he tends not to give away too much of his plan. He just orders the survey corps to do something and they have to follow orders even if they don't fully understand. Armin on the other hand explains exactly what he is thinking and that's how he gained his reputation for being a strategist. That's another reason for me thinking that Erwin probably would side with Eren to some extent at least. And even if he does end up disagreeing with him and joins the alliance, he'd come up with an actual plan rather than winging it (pun not intended lol).

In my opinion erwin would focus in preventive measures: logistical, geopolitical and diplomatic, etc. but he would never, ever, like never try to stop eren once he crossed seas for their enemies sake and their innocents alltogether, specially after hearing first hand the ch. 123 convention, and from second hand the declaration of war, even less if THAT MEANT KILLING THE YEAGERISTS IN THE PROCESS: a great portion of his men, of an already decreased military thanks to zeke and marleys actions.

Strategically that sounds like a suicide, as it leaves the island defenseless to anyone for the next decades and he couldnt be sure if the "wrong people" would be spared too, along the "kind grandmas and innocent children" the 104 surveys and many fans have on their mind while condemn ing the rumbling. In short, its the course of action a moral and naive teenager, or a very humanitarian civilian who have lived a pacific life as many of us would choose, not the course the equivalent of Anibal Barca in this story would choose. Not by a acre, it is nonsense, doesnt matter how many times its is tried to be thrown to our faces... in fact it is either a bait, or bad writing.

Jan 18, 2021 12:27 PM

#25

Lovlis

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Oct 2019

269

NO. PEOPLE ARE NOT JUST EMBODIMENTS OF THEIR IDEOLOGIES. People who say yes do not seem to understand his character.
Him being willing to sacrifice a few for overall humanity does not make him someone who will readily support absolute genocide lmao. Erwin's dream was of a new world, was to figure out if people existed outside the walls. Pretty sure that just eliminating them all would go against that.
And even more than that, he lives with an immense guilt. He always expressed his wish to repay back the lives loss, and at shiganshina, he chose humanity over his dreams. He would have no real reason to agree with eren.
Erwin says that the cycle of hate will keep on repeating until only one man is left. He would not think destruction can completely stop it.

╭⋟──────────────────────╮
"All problems come from the
human mind. In the mind, one's
consciousness is just the tip of
the iceberg. What lies beneath
the surface... the subconscious...
is far more vast."
- Shun Aonuma
╰──────────────────────⋞╯

Jan 18, 2021 6:28 PM

#26

HoodKublaiKhan

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Jun 2020

3747

It's hard to say because Erwin thought he was fighting for all of humanity the whole time. What I think would have happened is that the entire situation would be different. Erwin would have been more willing to try Zeke's plan of taking down one wall to activate a mini-rumbling, and the military would have maintained control over Paradis because of Erwin taking that gamble. Then I actually think he'd be against Eren's plan of trying to destroy the world because he wouldn't want to lose political control of Paradis and he'd have the people's support

If you want me to clarify my hypothetical just quote me and ask

Jan 18, 2021 7:52 PM

#27

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Jun 2009

279

He might support partial rumbling to destroy only the enemy's army.

But would he support Eren's world holocaust? Hell no. Erwin was pragmatic, but he wasn't a genosidal maniac.

Jan 19, 2021 4:22 AM

#28

Quequel

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Jul 2016

258

I think it could go either way. Erwin was willing to make the hard choices and sacrifice people to achieve his goals. But until his death that was to find what was beyond the walls and try to outside of it.
After achieving that, what would be next? And would he be as passionate about it?
If he felt he had no choice he would support it, but I think he would avoid it if he could.
After Liberio I guess it’s true he would have been forced to make that choice because of Eren.
But then again, if Erwin was still alive, would Eren have done it? Or could Erwin’s leadership have avoided that? (Because Eren basically went behind everyone’s back and caused the deaths of many world leaders)
Who knows?

Jan 19, 2021 7:41 AM

#29

Lylaaz

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Mar 2010

1718

Erwin = ERen WIN

I think he would support Eren. Because he is willing to take the sacrifices. And he has no attachments to the outside world anyway.

However, I can't imagine Erwin killing civilians. Perhaps there could have been negotiations with the outside world first. And if those had failed, the same thing could have happened what Eren is already doing.

Jan 19, 2021 10:13 AM

#30

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Jan 2016

51

People confuse Eren's way of sacrificing with Erwin's... They are not the same at all. Eren in fact chose NOT to sacrifice the people who were closer to him. Eren actually can't handle the sacrifices that well. So he massacres innocents. Erwin chose to sacrifice his soldiers, not innocent civilians. He chose to sacrifice his soldiers who dedicated their hearts for humanity and he felt extremely guilty about it, because for him his dream was more important. But in the end he gave up and died for humanity. Eren is the exact opposite. He won't die so that humanity can live. Instead, he is willing to murder humanity for his goals. Erwin fights for humanity, Eren is a war criminal who commited crimes against humanity.

This comparison can only be made to showcase how different the two are. Armin is way more Erwin than Eren will ever be and that's why he is the Commander of the Survey Corps. The group that fights FOR HUMANITY. He might not be his equal, but he is his spiritual successor.

Jan 19, 2021 4:01 PM

#31

removed-user

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Jul 2018

561872

Erwin sacrificed many soldiers for the sake of "humanity" and victory.

Eren "sacrificed" the Marley bitches for the sake of revenge AND the Eldians.

See there is a difference in between the two.

Even though they would do similar things, their ultimate goals are different.

Jan 20, 2021 6:03 PM

#32

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Mar 2017

70

> be erwin
> say to levi the first thing you will do after basement is eliminate threats
> you already understood from when you asked eren who the enemy is, that there are some humans who want everyone within the walls to be wiped out
> sacrifice the entire sc and yourself for a gamble at the beast titan
> die
> eren has the option to eliminate threats with a guarantee of success and freedom for your people
> your own subordinates choose to ignore what you said, and in fact oppose the guarantee of safety for your people
> they even claim that you would be on their side and in fact not eliminate threats despite that being exactly what you said

any criticism of isayama is WRONG he knows best god emperor based genius isayama

Jan 22, 2021 3:00 PM

#33

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Jun 2009

279

Saif_Lund said:
> be erwin
> say to levi the first thing you will do after basement is eliminate threats
> you already understood from when you asked eren who the enemy is, that there are some humans who want everyone within the walls to be wiped out
> sacrifice the entire sc and yourself for a gamble at the beast titan
> die
> eren has the option to eliminate threats with a guarantee of success and freedom for your people
> your own subordinates choose to ignore what you said, and in fact oppose the guarantee of safety for your people
> they even claim that you would be on their side and in fact not eliminate threats despite that being exactly what you said

any criticism of isayama is WRONG he knows best god emperor based genius isayama

Murdering inocent children is not the same as "eliminating threats"...

Jan 22, 2021 3:20 PM

#34

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Mar 2017

70

kronos7 said:

Saif_Lund said:
> be erwin
> say to levi the first thing you will do after basement is eliminate threats
> you already understood from when you asked eren who the enemy is, that there are some humans who want everyone within the walls to be wiped out
> sacrifice the entire sc and yourself for a gamble at the beast titan
> die
> eren has the option to eliminate threats with a guarantee of success and freedom for your people
> your own subordinates choose to ignore what you said, and in fact oppose the guarantee of safety for your people
> they even claim that you would be on their side and in fact not eliminate threats despite that being exactly what you said

any criticism of isayama is WRONG he knows best god emperor based genius isayama

Murdering inocent children is not the same as "eliminating threats"...

Erwin was ready to make these same sacrifices in stohess, his own people, risking everything when he could be reprimanded by the military police. I'm not saying he would have no regard for innocent lives, but hes always been the character who has the resolve to throw away lives and make great sacrifices. No matter how heinous the crime he commits, no matter the odds, he wouldn't gamble away paradis' future like the alliance is doing.

Jan 22, 2021 3:36 PM

#35

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Jun 2009

279

Saif_Lund said:

kronos7 said:

Murdering inocent children is not the same as "eliminating threats"...

Erwin was ready to make these same sacrifices in stohess, his own people, risking everything when he could be reprimanded by the military police. I'm not saying he would have no regard for innocent lives, but hes always been the character who has the resolve to throw away lives and make great sacrifices. No matter how heinous the crime he commits, no matter the odds, he wouldn't gamble away paradis' future like the alliance is doing.

In Stohess Erwin gambled their lives for the sake of luring the female titan out, but he didn't kill them personally. It was still Annie who decided to murder those people not Erwin. And then in Return to Shingashina Arc it was revieled that Erwin deeply regrets all the crazy shit he's done and that he didn't want to become the devil in the first place. Him sacreficing himself was his way of atonment for his past sins.

If Erwin survived, fullfilled his dream of learning whats in the basement and then was forced to still fight the enemy then he would become an empty shell of a men without a goal or purpose. Lifting the weight of a mass genoside would be too much for him, because his previous sins were already a big strain on his mental health.

Jan 22, 2021 3:52 PM

#36

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Mar 2017

70

kronos7 said:

Saif_Lund said:

Erwin was ready to make these same sacrifices in stohess, his own people, risking everything when he could be reprimanded by the military police. I'm not saying he would have no regard for innocent lives, but hes always been the character who has the resolve to throw away lives and make great sacrifices. No matter how heinous the crime he commits, no matter the odds, he wouldn't gamble away paradis' future like the alliance is doing.

In Stohess Erwin gambled their lives for the sake of luring the female titan out, but he didn't kill them personally. It was still Annie who decided to murder those people not Erwin. And then in Return to Shingashina Arc it was revieled that Erwin deeply regrets all the crazy shit he's done and that he didn't want to become the devil in the first place. Him sacreficing himself was his way of atonment for his past sins.

If Erwin survived, fullfilled his dream of learning whats in the basement and then was forced to still fight the enemy then he would become an empty shell of a men without a goal or purpose. Lifting the weight of a mass genoside would be too much for him, because his previous sins were already a big strain on his mental health.

He didn't kill them personally, as Eren didn't kill anyone in libero personally. He's not there to simply kill, he's there to respond to a declaration of war he knew was coming (and it did).

I don't think Erwin would be without goal or purpose if he was tasked with figuring out how paradis survives long term (if it is even possible without the rumbling). While his death was spectacular and had consequence and weight to it in the story, part of me felt like isayama conveniently introduced character flaws to kill him off, and when seeing the current events of the manga its pretty obvious why erwin had to be killed off.

Had he survived, he maybe could have had other character flaws that would be introduced like being too ruthless maybe, like an even more extreme version of floch but less fanatical and far more calculated would have been cool to see.

I'm just a passionate fan of the series I don't know exactly what isayama is planning but I don't like how the current sc veterans are speaking for erwin after his death when their idealistic views are partly what led to the mess on paradis regarding the yeagerists. Even if erwin wasn't full blown genocidepilled, he would have certainly supported the attack on libero and would have not let the yeagerists consolidate so much power on the island. I feel erwin had to be killed off because post-libero all the paradis characters have been utterly useless, and i wish i had the willpower to stop reading the series after 123 because the quality has taken a nosedive with the exception of 131.

Jan 22, 2021 4:48 PM

#37

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Jun 2009

279

Saif_Lund said:

He didn't kill them personally, as Eren didn't kill anyone in libero personally.

Excuse me what? Eren started the attack by blowing up a bunch of civilians in a building above him. How is that not killing people personally?
And it's the same with the rumbling, just on a bigger scale. Eren is the one who is directing the titans, the blood of those people is on his hands.

Saif_Lund said:
He's not there to simply kill, he's there to respond to a declaration of war he knew was coming (and it did).

Which was nothing more then dancing to Willy Tybur's tune. The Tybur Familly wanted the attack to happen. By doing this Eren antaginized the entire world against Eldians and added more countries to the list of their enemies. Erwin would never be as stupid to take Willy's bait when clearly this wasn't beneficial for Paradis in any way.

Saif_Lund said:
I don't think Erwin would be without goal or purpose if he was tasked with figuring out how paradis survives long term (if it is even possible without the rumbling). While his death was spectacular and had consequence and weight to it in the story, part of me felt like isayama conveniently introduced character flaws to kill him off, and when seeing the current events of the manga its pretty obvious why erwin had to be killed off.

Had he survived, he maybe could have had other character flaws that would be introduced like being too ruthless maybe, like an even more extreme version of floch but less fanatical and far more calculated would have been cool to see.

If that was the case then Erwin would not be Erwin, but some complitely different character. It was explisitely stated in the manga that the guilt is part of him as a person. So the arguement that "Maybe Isayama would write him differently" is not working, because this would be some completely different version of Erwin that we know.

Saif_Lund said:
I'm just a passionate fan of the series I don't know exactly what isayama is planning but I don't like how the current sc veterans are speaking for erwin after his death when their idealistic views are partly what led to the mess on paradis regarding the yeagerists. Even if erwin wasn't full blown genocidepilled, he would have certainly supported the attack on libero and would have not let the yeagerists consolidate so much power on the island. I feel erwin had to be killed off because post-libero all the paradis characters have been utterly useless, and i wish i had the willpower to stop reading the series after 123 because the quality has taken a nosedive with the exception of 131.

Personally I like those chapters and I don't think the quality took a nosedive. They remind me a bit of the early Attack on Titan and the pace can be a bit off, but shifting the conflict form Marley vs Eldia to Alliance vs Eren and Yeagerists was a ballsy move on Inasayma's part.

Jan 22, 2021 6:44 PM

#38

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Mar 2017

70

Where's all this shifting the goalposts come from, I've seen so often here and on reddit (garbage low iq people on that subreddit) that people say RBA didn't personally kill the people of shiganshina or wall maria, but an apples to apples comparison would be attacking another faction, and any collateral damage counts as a personal kill surely?

The eldian diplomatic meeting thing showed that there was no hope for paradis, and that an attack was coming regardless of what the survey corps did in marley. If there was a 3rd option where paradis and marley can coexist, its poor writing on isayama's part. The scenario has been presented to us as a binary option. Either paradis lives or paradis dies. Anything else completely ruins erens development and ruins SnK.

Erwin feeling guilty isn't the character flaw, its that up to that point he believed with 100% conviction that the sacrifices he forced the survey corps soldiers, the military police soldiers he used and the people of stohess make were all for the betterment of humanity. To suddenly have doubts about it being worth it, when so close to the truth which was a huge motivator for erwin is a convenient character flaw imo.

[long comment about your last point below]

You don't think the quality has dropped off? Could you imagine RtS with this cheesy hollywood humour and forgettable dialogue? The only joke in RtS was the one connie made about the falling houses which was actually funny. Or all the plot conveniences that have showed up out of nowhere like the sc running into annie, pieck ejecting from her titan (i know reiners nervous transfer thing was a new unseen ability in RtS which was bordering on an asspull but atleast it didnt happen repeatedly everytime he was in danger). The worst of all being falco able to fly from a beast titan memory despite inheriting the jaw titan, I absolutely expect some sort of explanation for this to come which is why I won't write it off as bullshit just yet. Not to mention NONE of the characters have brought up that killing eren isn't likely to stop the rumbling, remember the wall colossal that looked at mikasa? They are mindless without the founding titan.

I don't feel any danger for any of the characters, its nothing like early aot. Mowing through titan shifters like its nothing (yes i understand they are more skilled now but really?) and when things get rough falco will fly in again to save them. The worst offender is probably the speech by the marleyan general if when tensions are high at fort salta they just remember the generals speech about how hatred comes back to repay them and everyone lives happily ever after despite their country being destroyed by thousands of titans. Levi's monologue was actually good until 'h-he had that look in his eyes'. The last few chapters have been so shouneny i feel like one of isayama's editors needs to remind him this isnt my hero academia or some marvel adventures shit. One punch man is a parody and some of the dialogue we've gotten recently wouldn't even fit there.

I use to be so passionate about this story and couldnt wait until chapters were out, but theres been 3 filler chapters in a row now where the only things that have happened are armin being captured and zeke being shown for one page. This late in the story, why is there filler? Why do the chapters feel like they could end right where they begin? Precious final volume panels are wasted on trying to give useless info redeeming the greedy azumabito woman, or connies internal struggle to have absolutely no effect on the story. Connie was only worth the panels wasted on him if he were to change his mind and stay on the island citing that he swore to defend his family when he became a soldier. Some sort of twist, anything to justify those panels being there instead of him doing exactly what we knew he was going to do anyways. I'm not the writer though. Why on earth have their been more panels of reiners mother and annies father than eren, zeke and historia in last 10 chapters?

I don't care if Eren dies or rumbling stops, if it does though it needs to result in paradis and eldians being wiped out exactly as expected. Anything else and I think it's bullshit. It's been repeated that the choice Eren has is binary, if a magic 3rd option presented itself now it would destroy the main characters development for the entire series (inb4 eren is a good boy and dindu nuffin just kill the worm spine god and we all live happily ever after)
I also do sort of agree that a alliance loss would be more original, and while the good guys winning isn't automatically bad, I've seen that ending so many times before and would make this series so unmemorable which would be a great shame given how consistently high quality it has been from season 2 all the way until 132. The quality of 131 proves that isayama can still deliver good chapters, but so many mistakes at worst or filler at best has already been put to paper.

This comment is far longer than I intended, if anyone actually reads im curious to know what you all think

Feb 5, 2021 12:26 PM

#39

zerokarasu

Offline

Feb 2020

530

its sad so many ppl dont even realise why eren did the rumbling to begin with,like u know whats that rumbling is? yeah dont listen to ppl who said "eren is evil,he just want to kill ppl",that rumbling is desperate move,eren did that as last choice to use the nuke,because when u have the ENTIRE WORLD right in front of ur door to kill ur race,theres no choice.

then if erwin still alive instead of armin,theres a huge chance that rumbling will never happen,why? simple,u know what missing in this final arc?? 2 things:
1.Leader who know how to lead and THINK
2.armin=armin in this last final arc completely useless forgotten character,nuff said.
if erwin here,he will lead eren and eldian and try to find a strategy or solution,but now when erwin die,look,what are they doing??? "lets be friends and stop eren,just stop him even though we dont have any other plan or solution".

Feb 5, 2021 2:13 PM

#40

deg

lagom

Offline

Jan 2009

107204

well Erwin will surely get revenge on Marley at least i think maybe he will ask Magath for a one on one fight to the death (lol?) or even Erwin will use The Rumbling to destroy Marley alone and send a message to the rest of the world to not bother Paradis Island or maybe even start diplomacy that way once the world sees the might of The Rumbling

Feb 15, 2021 5:15 AM

#41

Offline

Feb 2021

9

CrimsonGeek said:

Vinicius234 said:

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

Feb 15, 2021 5:29 AM

#42

Offline

Jan 2016

51

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

You are dead wrong. Word of God>anyone else's interpretation. From the moment the author explains something, his explanation overrides any and all headcanons that anyone might have. You can still keep to your headcanons, but in the end they are just that. Headcanons that hold no weight in the actual story.

Now, if something is meant to be open to interpretation then so be it. But when the author explains it and you (or anyone else for that matter) deny it then you are automatically wrong.

Feb 15, 2021 7:03 AM

#43

Offline

Feb 2021

9

CrimsonGeek said:

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

Vinicius234 said:

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

You are dead wrong. Word of God>anyone else's interpretation. From the moment the author explains something, his explanation overrides any and all headcanons that anyone might have. You can still keep to your headcanons, but in the end they are just that. Headcanons that hold no weight in the actual story.

Now, if something is meant to be open to interpretation then so be it. But when the author explains it and you (or anyone else for that matter) deny it then you are automatically wrong.

So if Isayama made a parallel between Mikasa and Zeke everyone would be obliged to accept that they are similar characters instead of analysing facts? That's not how any form of art works, authors and creators have no saying on what people interpret of it. I might find someone's story shitty, if they say its actually genius am i obliged to accept it cause its the word of god? No.

This is not about facts explicitly stated on the story itself, its about interpretation and the author's intention of it, so headcannon does not fit the subject in any way. I'm not talking about contradicting plot points for the sake of personal opinion, i'm talking about when a viewer's interpretation differs from the authors intention, which, believe me, it's more common in any form of media than the opposite situation, as it should be.

Feb 15, 2021 7:11 AM

#44

Offline

Feb 2021

9

CrimsonGeek said:

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

Vinicius234 said:

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

You are dead wrong. Word of God>anyone else's interpretation. From the moment the author explains something, his explanation overrides any and all headcanons that anyone might have. You can still keep to your headcanons, but in the end they are just that. Headcanons that hold no weight in the actual story.

Now, if something is meant to be open to interpretation then so be it. But when the author explains it and you (or anyone else for that matter) deny it then you are automatically wrong.

Here in my country we have a movie called elite squad, the director explicitly said that his objective was to make a criticism on police violence, however, most of the viewers agreed with the situations the movie was displaying and praised exactly what the author intented to be an accusation. This is how art works, people create it, share it with the world, and other people take it and interpret it with their own opinions and experiences. To say that the author intention of a work is more important than the viewers emotional response is simply not understanding how art works, and disregarding the viewers experiences.

TheBerserker66Feb 15, 2021 7:17 AM

Feb 15, 2021 7:42 AM

#45

Adnash

Offline

Oct 2013

9887

I_Am_Freeballing said:
Erwin would be one of Eren's main supporters.

I think so as well. Even if not one of the biggest supporters (not on Floch level of support, anyway), then surely he would have been a loyal Jaegerist willing to protect Paradis at all cost.

✨Saint Seiya Club🌠

Feb 15, 2021 8:30 AM

#46

Offline

Jan 2016

51

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

Vinicius234 said:

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

You are dead wrong. Word of God>anyone else's interpretation. From the moment the author explains something, his explanation overrides any and all headcanons that anyone might have. You can still keep to your headcanons, but in the end they are just that. Headcanons that hold no weight in the actual story.

Now, if something is meant to be open to interpretation then so be it. But when the author explains it and you (or anyone else for that matter) deny it then you are automatically wrong.

So if Isayama made a parallel between Mikasa and Zeke everyone would be obliged to accept that they are similar characters instead of analysing facts? That's not how any form of art works, authors and creators have no saying on what people interpret of it. I might find someone's story shitty, if they say its actually genius am i obliged to accept it cause its the word of god? No.

This is not about facts explicitly stated on the story itself, its about interpretation and the author's intention of it, so headcannon does not fit the subject in any way. I'm not talking about contradicting plot points for the sake of personal opinion, i'm talking about when a viewer's interpretation differs from the authors intention, which, believe me, it's more common in any form of media than the opposite situation, as it should be.

The examples you chose show that you don't understand completely what you are talking about. How is the Erwin situation even remotely comparable to an author saying that his work is genius?

The author is the one and only authority when it comes to his characters and the plot of his own creation. His opinion on whether or not his story is genius is just an opinion. Not a fact. Evaluating the quality of a series is completely different to determining what's canon in-universe.

As for the Mikasa and Zeke example, yes if Isayama wanted to draw parallels between the two and showcase their similarities then that's exactly how it should be interpreted. From then on, after accepting the author's view as canon, you can obviously criticise his writing choices by saying that he didn't do a good job portraying that on paper. That's a different thign entirely.

Feb 15, 2021 8:34 AM

#47

Offline

Jan 2016

51

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

Vinicius234 said:

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

You are dead wrong. Word of God>anyone else's interpretation. From the moment the author explains something, his explanation overrides any and all headcanons that anyone might have. You can still keep to your headcanons, but in the end they are just that. Headcanons that hold no weight in the actual story.

Now, if something is meant to be open to interpretation then so be it. But when the author explains it and you (or anyone else for that matter) deny it then you are automatically wrong.

Here in my country we have a movie called elite squad, the director explicitly said that his objective was to make a criticism on police violence, however, most of the viewers agreed with the situations the movie was displaying and praised exactly what the author intented to be an accusation. This is how art works, people create it, share it with the world, and other people take it and interpret it with their own opinions and experiences. To say that the author intention of a work is more important than the viewers emotional response is simply not understanding how art works, and disregarding the viewers experiences.

No, you simply don't understand what i am saying. I am not disregarding the viewer's experience in any way. If one feels one way about the plot/character of a work of art then of course he/she is entitled to his/her opinion. However, the CANON is determined by the CREATOR. Not the viewer. He/She created the universe, the themes, the plot and the characters. He/She knows better.

Whether or not the creator is skilled enough to convey these messages EXACTLY the way he meant to is another thing entirely. If your interpretation of a work does not match the original creator's intent there are only two reasons that this has happened. Either you were not able to understand something obvious or the author was just bad and unable to convey his messages correctly. I guess that's the case with that movie you spoke of.

CrimsonGeekJun 30, 2023 10:08 PM

Feb 15, 2021 9:14 AM

#48

Offline

Dec 2019

161

Adnash93 said:

I_Am_Freeballing said:
Erwin would be one of Eren's main supporters.

I think so as well. Even if not one of the biggest supporters (not on Floch level of support, anyway), then surely he would have been a loyal Jaegerist willing to protect Paradis at all cost.

If not a supporter, he would have stepped aside once he saw almost every soldier and citizen supporting him... otherwise he risked a mutiny, which effectively occurred. No general would kill their own soldiers for the sake of his enemies and his populace, no matter how much heinous it seems. Specially not an ENTJ or INTJ like him, unless they had a 5d chess plan on mind.

Creators opinions arent the word of god either, specially not with editors at their side, in mainstream works and with interest in tv. Books are the exception. Ironically, its also not unheard that an author have repented a choice afterwards in favour of the fanbase view in a matter.

Vinicius234Feb 15, 2021 9:25 AM

Feb 15, 2021 9:48 AM

#49

Offline

Feb 2021

9

CrimsonGeek said:

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

TheBerserker66 said:

CrimsonGeek said:

Vinicius234 said:

CrimsonGeek said:
Anyone who believes that Erwin would side with Eren should reread the series. Isayama has made it abundantly clear via Hange and now through Levi that the veteran members of the SC would all fight against Eren. The only people who support Eren are ultranationalists, biggots and imperialists. Lowlifes in general. Erwin does not belong in such a group.

Isayama has clearly tried to draw parallels between Erwin and Armin, especially in regards to their idealism. Erwin and the rest of the now dead veterans would all be part of the Alliance. However, with Erwin's leadership, instead of Hange's and Armin's Eren would never even unleash a full-scale Rumbling. Hell, he might not even have to unleash a partial one.

And i dont buy the parallel, they are completely different personality wise and their skills were also different... for every ocassion armim doubted, felt unworthy and smiled like the 10 year old kiddo he was, erwin was shown to be collected, focused and lost in his thoughs, completely impassive and determined into his goals which where judgmental and intuitive oriented, 0 feelings until his last charge were he opened to levi... its funny because levi himself refered to his eyes and every time i remember erwin his demeanor was closer to 20 year old eren than armins... even in chapter 136, when isayama tried blatantly to sell this nonsense, armins expressions were identical to hange instead LMFAO... in general, i feel he is trying too desperately to deepthroats us with this, while in the core the subtextual and the characters lore indicates something else.

Whether you buy the parallel or not is irrelevant. Isayama created the characters=he knows better than you. If he says their eyes are the same, they are the same. If he says that the old guard of the SC would never support Eren, the old guard would never support Eren. Was the righting top notch? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The context though is indisputable.

You are basically saying that what the author's intended is more important than the viewer's interpretation, which is absolutely wrong. From the moment art is thrown on the world, the artist has no saying in what the audience thinks of it and people are entitled to their own interpretation.

For context i do think that Erwin would not agree with Eren, but not because some empty comparisons of him and armin.

You are dead wrong. Word of God>anyone else's interpretation. From the moment the author explains something, his explanation overrides any and all headcanons that anyone might have. You can still keep to your headcanons, but in the end they are just that. Headcanons that hold no weight in the actual story.

Now, if something is meant to be open to interpretation then so be it. But when the author explains it and you (or anyone else for that matter) deny it then you are automatically wrong.

So if Isayama made a parallel between Mikasa and Zeke everyone would be obliged to accept that they are similar characters instead of analysing facts? That's not how any form of art works, authors and creators have no saying on what people interpret of it. I might find someone's story shitty, if they say its actually genius am i obliged to accept it cause its the word of god? No.

This is not about facts explicitly stated on the story itself, its about interpretation and the author's intention of it, so headcannon does not fit the subject in any way. I'm not talking about contradicting plot points for the sake of personal opinion, i'm talking about when a viewer's interpretation differs from the authors intention, which, believe me, it's more common in any form of media than the opposite situation, as it should be.

The examples you chose show that you don't understand completely what you are talking about. How is the Erwin situation even remotely comparable to an author saying that his work is genius?

The author is the one and only authority when it comes to his characters and the plot of his own creation. His opinion on whether or not his story is genius is just an opinion. Not a fact. Evaluating the quality of a series is completely different to determining what's canon in-universe.

As for the Mikasa and Zeke example, yes if Isayama wanted to draw parallels between the two and showcase their similarities then that's exactly how it should be interpreted. From then on, after accepting the author's view as canon, you can obviously criticise his writing choices by saying that he didn't do a good job portraying that on paper. That's a different thign entirely.

Again, you are basically saying that any writer can say that any shallow characters are super deep and everyone should accept that it is true even if nothing within the story points to that, since their word is the word of god. Cannon refers to facts stated and proved within the stories themselves, not intended interpretations. People dont read or watch stories asking themselves what the writers intended for them to get out of it, thats not what art is about, people will come to their own conclusions based on their experiences, if they were to change their views based solemnly on the authors opinions and not on facts they are either dumb or weak-minded, since, as someone already stated, authors views and opinions are subject to change, should the viewers conclusions change as well? Of course not.

Edit:Remember when JK Rowling said that dumbledore was gay only to please the lgbt community even if there was not a single piece of information within the books that pointed to that and no one with a brain accepted that as a fact? If it was what she intended, it would be there, but it wasn't, "cannon" refers to material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story, and it wasn't the case, it was JK headcannon.

TheBerserker66Feb 15, 2021 10:09 AM

Mar 22, 2021 5:49 AM

#50