When did the Anime community become so entitled?

existentialist said:


I agree with pretty much everything you've said, which is why I'm heavily in support of moving to a internet focused market model wherein the creators are themselves the distributors of their own products. What is CR and FunI really? They are just streaming websites. All studios need on their teams are web designers and coders, and they could easily create the exact same thing CR has. Then they could do the exact same thing, but they would be getting most of the funds instead of paying for leeches at CR to give them pennies for licensing. It's even easier for mangakas and LN authors, because they wouldn't have to worry about creating their own video interface. They would just have to scan their works and put them on their websites.

I still think the industry would adapt to the demands and move towards an online format because it would be where the money is, they just need the incentive and to know for sure that people would be ready and willing to buy directly from them.

I agree, but that's because CR and their ilk have no incentive to change. I do know not many people like CR and other distributers, specifically because of their mercenary business practices, but do they know that? And, even if they do, there's obviously enough people supporting them (like dipshit OP here) so that they don't feel the need to make fairer deals with studios when licensing. It's kind of like how Nike and Apple pay people shit wages in developing countries to make their stuff on the cheap, but once it started getting lots of media attention and backlash they (apparently) moved towards more ethical practices. Maybe anime just isn't popular enough in the west yet and so CR will be able to hold on until it can become real national news, who knows.

Zeroflamez said:

I never paid for CR you dumb ass. I never have and I don't even like the fucking company. I also really encourage you to look into how much it costs to purchase the license of a show, especially a very profitable one. If you think Funi and CR Are paying peanuts for streaming and distribution rights you're very sorely fucking mistaken.Also the studio has NOTHING to do with making license deals, that's all done by the production companies. If you want to blame someone for animators not getting paid, go blame them and not the middlemen companies that are already paying these companies buckets of money for licenses. God forbid they make any money after paying for licenses and paying for everything that goes into localizing and distributing Anime. I'm so tired of people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about run their mouth like they have any god damned idea.

existentialist said:


Honestly don't have the energy to respond to all of your ignorance. Here, read these, and if you still want to argue about it, then we can do so with the same knowledge in hand.
https://www.academia.edu/22865763/From_Piracy_to_Legitimacy_The_Rise_of_Crunchyroll_and_the_Exploitation_of_Digital_Labour
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2018-07-03/helping-the-industry-otaku-coin-the-flying-colors-foundation-and-you/.133749
https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2018/03/07/the-struggle-of-animes-novice-creators/
You'll realize how my analogy makes sense between Apple, Nike, and the CR and their practices if you realize Apple and Nike did the same shit. They didn't directly hire workers who were getting paid shit wages, they hired companies, that then went out and paid their workers like shit. Is that just okay? Can we say "well they didn't DIRECTLY do it, can't blame them" because they are turning a blind eye and taking advantage of the situation? Or do we hold them responsible for helping propagate and maintain the industry as it is?

petran79 said:


Bad audio and picture quality, region block, bad subtitles, rushed and cheap dubs, low paid voice actors and translators, no dvd/bd releases, monopolization practices, no way to record the video, removal of series without notice, isolation of anime from rest of entertainment, dividing regions into rich and poor zones etc



I'll take the dvd/bd market over this any day.

Zeroflamez said:

I'm well aware of CR and their beginnings. I've had an account with them that dates back to 2007. I'm well aware that they were peddling fan subs and had people uploading fan-subs to their site which helped the growth of their website. Then go and blame the studio's parent companies. Not the middlemen like CR and Funi, their entire business is built off of localizing and providing the people in their region with a certain product that they couldn't get otherwise unless they imported it from Japan and they understood Japanese to be able to read/watch it. Funi and CR has absolutely nothing to do with the Studio's in Japan nor do they do any kind of direct business with them. It's all through the production companies. Your hatred for CR and Funi is misplaced and that's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. Also the production committee's contract out the Studio's to produce Anime and pay them for it. These production companies are not in charge of paying the studio employee's wages. The people that are responsible for that is the parent company that owns the studio. So again, your hate is misplaced. It's not even really the fault of the production companies either cause all they do is pay the studio a lump sum of money to produce Anime, they aren't directly allocating and paying their wages. If the animators are getting shit wages that's much the fault of the studio themselves and the people that own it. Bottom line.

Zeroflamez said:
I seriously don't understand the people in the Anime community that demands things

existentialist said:
Both are bad, EVEN THOUGH they didn't directly do anything wrong, they know what's happening, and don't care. Still scummy, and not ok by my books.

existentialist said:


Dude, please, stay with me. My whole contention, has been about the anime industry....... the anime industry. Not just CR and FunI, but the whole industry. CR and FunI are apart of the anime industry. I don't like how the anime industry is run. Therefore, I don't like CR and FunI because they aren't doing anything about how the anime industry is run, even though they are massive players in it. I don't like producers, I don't like middle men, I don't like the studios that choose to pay their creators like shit. BUT, I also don't like CR and FunI, and won't support them because of their complicity in the anime industry. anime industry. If the studios don't pay their creators enough; if producers aren't giving enough to studios to properly compensate creators; no business should be done with them, and if there is? I'm not supporting that chain. Bottom line. I hope I was clear enough here... but just incase, I'll give you my analogy again.

"You'll realize how my analogy makes sense between Apple, Nike, and the CR and their practices if you realize Apple and Nike did the same shit. They didn't directly hire workers who were getting paid shit wages, they hired companies, that then went out and paid their workers like shit. Is that just okay? Can we say "well they didn't DIRECTLY do it, can't blame them" because they are turning a blind eye and taking advantage of the situation? Or do we hold them responsible for helping propagate and maintain the industry as it is?"
Apple = paid companies that paid workers like shit and are overworked; CR = pays companies that pays workers like shit and are overworked. Both are bad, EVEN THOUGH they didn't directly do anything wrong, they know what's happening, and don't care. Still scummy, and not ok by my books.

katsucats said:


It is all okay in my book. That's the way the market -- the world -- works. Not idealism. Do you really think any of these companies would make proportionately, or even within a constant factor more, if they paid their staff more? Human rights activists like to make these empty statements but at the end of the day if not enough people fork up money for these ideals, then there isn't the incentive to support them.

At the end of the day, people need to put food on the table. If a company stops working with a sweatshop, the sweatshop closes and people go hungry. In an ideal world, since people still need shoes, a new sweatshop with better conditions and higher pay would spring up to take that contract. But in a supply-based economy, there would always be other companies to take that lower priced contract while you're putting your undue attention on Nike and Wal-mart, so some other outfit could swing by and supplant them.

You see, Nike isn't the problem. The Capitalistic economic system has its advantages and disadvantages. But you can't change something on the grand scale by attacking the actors that has to work within the system.

If an anime producer stops contracting animators, those animators would go hungry, period. The producer would lose money relative to other companies, and the stockholders would fire the CEO and that office would go hungry, period. The studio might close down, and other maintenance staff would go hungry, period. And at the end of the day, people get less anime to watch, and hundreds to thousands of people out there a less certain outcome, where they might find a higher paying job, but most likely they'll just go to one of the many other studios offering the same or less, since they just lost all of their bargaining leverage.

The only thing you can do here is attack the consumer culture, since demand drives supply. While the consumers still want to pay $5 for a burger instead of $20, don't expect any CEO's to take a paycut from the industry standard.

Zeroflamez said:


I can see your point on them knowing what's going on and not caring like you say, but there's really only so much these companies like Funi and CR can do. They have very little influence on anything that goes on in terms of the Japanese Anime Industry side of things and their politics. It also doesn't have anything to do with Funi or CR so there's really no point in them getting involved cause they couldn't do a whole lot to change anything even if they wanted to. Cause at the end of the day, these companies's jobs are to just localize and distribute a foreign product. That's their function, that's it and they make a business off of it. To shame them for stuff that they have NOTHING to do with isn't even fair in my opinion. Your analogy also isn't even comparable. Nike and Apple are the owners of their own products and brand. They go to the manufacturers in China cause it's cheaper for them. If they wanted to they could just as easily have this stuff made domestically and make their own factories to do it while paying the workers proper wages, but they don't cause it's more expensive. That's scummy, they're taking advantage of cheap labor. CR and Funi on the other hand they aren't the creators or owners of anything like Nike and Apple. They have no choice BUT to go to the Japanese license holders and pay them to distribute and make money off of their products. If they don't do that they make no money, and if they make no money their company goes under. So what you're basically saying is that CR and Funi are bad people for buying licenses from companies that they HAVE to buy from in order to keep their business going. Regardless of whether they have fair businesses practices or not. Also if you really hate the industry dude why are you even watching Anime? Just stop watching it altogether cause you're indirectly supporting it by doing this anyway. So I'm not really buying you hate the industry.

existentialist said:


Why do you keep saying they have nothing to do with it? I just told you they do and why they do. They rent the intellectual property of products made from people getting paid slave labour wages, they are a direct supporte of the chain, and they have a monopoly of the distribution in the west. You and I both know they have tons of pull in the industry, they are the paid lifeline between Japan and the west in terms of anime, they could obviously make a stand.

We are dealing with intellectual property here, so it is different in the only sense that they aren't getting a physical product, but they are more or less doing the exact same thing. Every anime under the CR banner is essentially, for the life of the licence, just like a footlocker selling Nike shoes. If you had made this argument when CR was on the come-up, I would have agreed there were economic realities that they couldn't surpass, but it is different now. They are a very wealthy company, and could easily request creators get paid better. Now, whether or not that works, I don't know, but the fact that they haven't tried and aren't planning on it is the problem. There is a cultural problem in Japan towards work, and its unacceptable that a company who wouldn't do the same thing to workers in one nation do it in another because its convenient.

What kind of comparison is that? The anime industry is a business model that I don't like, anime itself is a narrative art medium. Do I support Nike by taking a pair of their shoes that I found boxed on the street? Unless you count my single view on streaming sites as "support". I couldn't care less what you believe, I'm not here to convince you of my deepest feelings.

Zeroflamez said:


Dude a monopoly is when one company has control of the entire market. There are a dozen companies licensing and distributing Anime in the West, there is no monopoly going on here. You're really underestimating the amount of Pull CR and Funi have. All Funi and CR could do at most is just suggest it and possibly request there to be something done about it. They don't have the kind of pull or power over these Japanese companies like you think they do. Anime is a hot property right now, the Japanese industry holds all the cards. There's absolutely nothing stopping them from going to some other streaming platform like Netflix , Amazon or even getting Viz to start up their own streaming service and throw all the licenses they want at them. CR and Funi are big players but they are certainly replaceable especially now days with the competitive streaming market where everyone wants in on it now. Funi and CR are in a good spot right now and I doubt they want to piss off the big wigs in Japan and lose their support by getting involved with politics that they have next to no say in.

Zeroflamez said:




I've seen this sentiment quite a bit on this page. How exactly are CR and Funimation leeches? I think a lot of you guys tend to forget that Funimation and CR are a business. The whole point of localization is bringing over a product that people will buy and make the company money. Of course Funimation and CR will NEVER give a large portion of their money back to the producers and why should they? Them buying licenses for these shows are already paying the producers and if you guys think licenses are cheap I don't really know what to tell you. Especially the price for extremely profitable titles at that. I'm pretty sure that the producers get a percentage of the revenue from International sales too. So like how much money do you guys expect companies like Funi and CR to fork over? You guys also forget that these companies also gotta not only pull a profit for themselves but for their parent companies too. They can't just be making enough to keep the business running and throw the rest of the money at the Japanese industry..

existentialist said:


"It is all okay in my book. That's the way the market -- the world -- works. Not idealism. Do you really think any of these companies would make proportionately, or even within a constant factor more, if they paid their staff more?"
You know who was also mentioning similar stuff? Factory owners during the industrial revolution. But, interestingly, they were talking about child labour laws. But I mean, you should have no problem with those right?

existentialist said:
"that's the way the market works. Not idealism." Why should we limit the owners ability to do whatever they want? So what if a 6 year old looses his leg to in a textile machine, not our problem. I hope you can see the absurdity in this. Labour laws can always be changed and improved, and if a country functioning in a nation where those laws exists does business where the aren't respected (let alone a developed first world country, like Japan) then that is immoral on their part. Its not idealistic to ask that creators be paid enough so they don't have to work 80 hours a week and still make under 30 grand a year.

existentialist said:
You are assuming if one model of supply runs out, the market itself collapses. But this is patently false and can be seen all throughout history. We have, and continue to, create legislation hampering what business owners can do to their employees for the simple fact that it works, and the system keeps chugging along fine. Unlike 100 years ago, workers no longer have to fight in the streets to get a decent wage and work in safe conditions in the west, because the labour movement fought for these rights.

The industry standard is so low because workers are being fucked and Japan has such a strong honour culture that no one wants to be the one to say "what the fuck are we doing to our people?" If highly successful businesses like CR and FumI make a real stand, they can change things. They have the western anime market more or less dominated (though netflix and amazon are coming in hot), so their perspective matters.

existentialist said:


I didn't mean monopoly in a technical sense, just the colloquial sense that most of the legal anime is streamed on CR + FunI. I mean CR alone has 70 million users, I don't know how much anime is streamed on Netflix or Amazon but I can guarantee you its dwarfed by CR's numbers. The main players are CR, FunI, Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu, everything else I would guess splits 5-10% of the anime watching population. And they do have pull for sure. The international market is growing way faster than domestically in Japan https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/anime-market . Regardless, all of the big western companies should boycott the shit studios together. I know none of this is going to happen, the point is that it should happen or an attempt should be made by western companies to not be complicit in it. Like the writers and animators are not just randos from the streets, they are extremely talented individuals that work tirelessly for our enjoyment. The least we can do is attempt to help them not live in such conditions. https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/7/2/20677237/anime-industry-japan-artists-pay-labor-abuse-neon-genesis-evangelion-netflix
"One studio, Madhouse, was recently accused of violating labor code: Employees were working nearly 400 hours per month and went 37 consecutive days without a single day off. A male animator’s 2014 suicide was classified as a work-related incident after investigators found he had worked more than 600 hours in the month leading up to his death." I don't know how you or anyone can be fine with this. And even if you say "CR didn't do nofin" they have power and they're connected to the industry, they and all other western companies have a moral responsibility not to profit off of slave labour.

Zeroflamez said:

Yeah dude I don't agree with people being worked to death. Do I think something should be done? Yes I do think there should be some kind of a Animators Union in Japan that can possibly protect from studio's abusing their employee's and ensure they get decent pay, but at the end of the day Western companies have no obligation to fulfill any moral or ethical ideals that you believe they should. The reality is no matter how much you think they are responsible they really aren't. If you could take off your ideal goggles for a few seconds you could see that. That's the point I'm trying to get across and it's not about whether we're okay with them working under those conditions or not, we can't force Western companies to do something that they aren't obligated to do legally. Can we suggest it? yes but that's it. If they don't wanna do it then there's nothing we can do about it. Now with the Japanese companies, they also aren't morally or ethically obligated to carry out anything either. As long as these studios are following regulations and laws that they have to follow, they can't be forced to do anything either. Now you brought up the labor code violation and that is terrible, but unless stricter punishments are enforced these studios will just pay their fine and keep it moving..

katsucats said:

Guess how we solved that problem? Oh wait, you knew? Child labor laws! Meaning either you agree with me, or you really don't have the self reflection. They didn't arbitrarily boycott Facebook to economically disadvantage themselves, myopically, while solving no problem. They appealed to governors. People cared. They voted. When that doesn't happen, like in some third world countries, the children exist in a world where this is the norm, and their lack of ability to provide places the family at a competitive disadvantage.

Sure, it's easy to look back like it's common sense when you don't even live in that condition! This is just your privilege talking.

Yes, labor laws can be changed through regulation, not getting mad at companies that work within the framework that the world works in.

It's like playing a game and getting mad at people for winning within the rules of the game. You either play the game yourself, understand that other people play the game, or change the rules. But you're saying there's big, bad wolves taking advantage of people -- No, they fundamentally are not. You are appealing to ethics without putting your money where your mouth is. That's exactly what Tragedy of the Commons prescribed regulation!

And you're being patently dishonest and shifting goal posts. Businesses work under the conditions that are permitted.

So far, your only argument is that regulation is possible. I agree. But then you turn around and bark up the wrong tree, blaming corporations. You don't really think the government is responsible if you think businesses are at fault for protecting their bottom line within the confines of law. You blame the businesses, and then you argue against the government. What's with this cognitive dissonance?

It's like playing a game and getting mad at people for winning within the rules of the game. You either play the game yourself, understand that other people play the game, or change the rules. But you're saying there's big, bad wolves taking advantage of people -- No, they fundamentally are not. You are appealing to ethics without putting your money where your mouth is. That's exactly what Tragedy of the Commons prescribed regulation!

And you're being patently dishonest and shifting goal posts. Businesses work under the conditions that are permitted.

So far, your only argument is that regulation is possible. I agree. But then you turn around and bark up the wrong tree, blaming corporations. You don't really think the government is responsible if you think businesses are at fault for protecting their bottom line within the confines of law. You blame the businesses, and then you argue against the government. What's with this cognitive dissonance?

existentialist said:
Interesting, so you don't consider general strikes, or specific boycotts on products or business targeting, as "going after businesses"? The labour movement is literally a tale of business owners and workers and the workers supporters fighting constantly, whether through media exposure, voting, and yet, sabotaging the ability of businesses and factories to produce their product by sit ins. This is exactly because who had the power, money, and influence to control local legislation? The business owners, and it has always been in their interest to lobby against even the most common sense labour laws (look up how hard factory owners fought to keep children working in their businesses). Next important point, we aren't dealing with a 3rd world country Japan is a fully industrialzed, extremely adept technologically, first world country, and has similar labour laws to the west. No one needs to overthrow the country and try and democratize it to help the workers, they just need a voice and someone to point out the tragedy that is currently happening and enough people to give a shit to tell businesses that are exploiting the situation to exert force to make shit change.

existentialist said:
I agree, so lets take a look at those business conditions in Japan... Wow it really is a warzone there, I totally understand why they they can only pay their animators so little. its not like they took advantage of a convention in animation in the 60's and then didn't adjust payment for work against inflation and then kept the profits because no one said anything... That's totally not the central reason why they are paid so shit today. https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/7/2/20677237/anime-industry-japan-artists-pay-labor-abuse-neon-genesis-evangelion-netflix
What? Everyone involved is too blame. CR and western distributors for buying the slave labour products, the production companies for paying slave labour amounts to the studios who pay the contract animations slave wages, and then the government officials who know about this, know its breaking THEIR CURRENT labour laws and ignores it. They all have some bit of responsibility, and the problem won't get fixed unless all of them decided to stop taking advantage of people who don't have the power to speak up for themselves and make change happen.

Zeroflamez said:
@Inorichi

Their entire business model relies on anime, yet they don't make any, they barely advertise it, they don't promote it, they don't introduce it to new audiences. Unlike retailers, that offer a producer an audience or customers to sell their goods to, the people who are paying Crunchyroll are paying to watch the anime that the Japanese Anime Industry produces. It has nothing to do with Funimation or Crunchyroll. Their subtitles do little to nothing to 'improve' the experience. Their existence is unnecessary, they were just the first to find out that, paying a licensing fee, then collecting money from people who want to watch that anime is profitable. The licensing fees are significantly less than the profits they've made. If the licensing fees cost more than the amount of money they got from their subscribers, they would have gone bankrupt.

Funi and CR exist because they do all the leg work the Japanese companies don't want to do. Yes Japan COULD do their own streaming service but that would mean they'd have to translate subtitle everything themselves which would cost them money. There also wouldn't be any dubs most likely either so they'd be losing out on the "dub only" part of the market which Funi capitalizes on. They'd also have to distribute the DVD's and Blu ray's themselves costing them money. So why go through all that if someone will do it for us while they still get a cut? Also the Japanese model when it comes to Anime is much different to the North American and international model. The way they market and sell Anime in Japan would not work in North America. The last companies that tried to directly handle localization (Bandai and Geneon) by creating their own north american branches ended up going out of business 10 years ago because they didn't want to accept the fact that people didn't want to pay $30 for a 4 episode DVD of Anime anymore and they refused to adapt. Japan still goes by this out dated business practice and it's why when companies like Aniplex do directly distribute their Anime in North America it costs fucking ridiculous amounts of money. They are pricing things based off the Japanese market. they are willing to pay that price there, in North America we are definitely not and the Japanese industry is too stubborn to change things to accommodate our market.

I don't know why you and some others keep looking at Funimation and CR making money as a bad or morally/ethically wrong. They are a business. They have to make money. Their company comes first before anything else. Ideals are nice and all but that's just how reality works. Ultimately whether or not you like CR and Funi or not, if these Western companies didn't exist we'd all be paying Aniplex prices for Anime. By them existing they are able to give us Anime for an affordable price.


@existentialist

Okay we just fundamentally disagree then I guess. The way I see it, the anime you are watching on CR, was created mostly by slave labour. Every picture, every second of every video, every artistic detail which we love too see = made at some point by people suffering unnecessarily. So I don't know how you can claim they have no responsibility, when the product made by the slave labour is right in our faces, its literally the thing we are watching. Doesn't get more clear than that to me. Hey you can keep asserting they have no responsibility, but I know they do and I will hold them to that standard. If you don't want to, that's on you, but until thing change in general or they make a stand I won't ever support the industry.

"my ideal goggles" This is the really weird thing about your perspective: it is totally solvable and the problem is beyond out of the ordinary. A social Democratic country is allowing their people to work themselves to death? Super weird. And me saying "that's kinda fucked" is being idealistic? Like, the problem is just strait up greed. That's it. If every link in the chain of production took a moderately sized pay cut, problem = gone.

I honestly don't even know what to tell you at this point. You keep expecting people to operate under the same moral and ethic ideal system as you. I'm trying to tell you that the world just doesn't work that way. The most important thing to these companies is profit. As long as the workers are working in a condition that doesn't break any laws these companies aren't legally doing anything wrong. Funimation and CR not taking a stand isn't breaking any laws and not having decent moral or ethics isn't against the law unless it leads to breaking a law. If you can't understand this then I don't know what else to say.

katsucats said:


Labor unionists have made the economic decision to risk their own livelihoods to leverage for greater opportunities. What's at stake is theirs. Where's your role in this? What's on stake for you? Without understanding the what the workers themselves are going through, it's like you're taking away their agency to strike, that their risk is entirely out of their control and in people thousands of miles away. By all means, if you think the companies are against your values, then don't buy their products. But do understand that you are doing this for you, not for those workers. Do get mad at the Japanese government for regulations that don't meet your standards, and not business executives that must live within the rules set by the government and the market. You can boycott anything you want without it being an emotional crusade, and if you must push for a cause, address it to the right people. I highly doubt the Japanese people are "unaware" of their own tragedy and need you to set them on the right path.

existentialist said:
I take satisfaction in the fact that I defended them against people who seem indifferent to their abject suffering. And if I ever got the power, or was in a position where I could really make a difference, I know I would try my best.

katsucats said:


If you want real satisfaction, then set up GoFundMe or Patreon pages for animators. I personally can't see how not buying anime products defend the livelihoods of animators in anyway. But at least you're being honest about your limits.

I would love to say that I care about the animators, from a moralistic appeal. But when it comes down to it, no I probably would not pay an extra dollar whenever I buy something. It only stands to reason that I shouldn't give myself the moral satisfaction to make that claim. At the end of the day, for people who are really concerned, it's easy: Look up someone's email and hit them up with $50. Not many people are really willing to do that. They must not care that much then.

existentialist said:


Umm yeah, that's the point of having ethics and morals. You stick up for them and try to universalize them as much as possible. And woah here, you mean our morals. You agreed it wasn't a good think to overwork and underpay workers correct? So you agree with me morally, but are either too craven or too unaffected by the situation to do or say anything about it.

There was also a time when slavery existed, and the same people said the same dumb shit "slave are just apart of the world, things don't just work the way you want, we can't just get rid of slavery, the economy wouldn't be able to handle that; remember, the most important thing to these companies is profit". Should someone be able to bring back slavery because it would give them more profit? Why not, you seem to not mind. And then when we tried to get children out of textile factories "what are the children going to do? How are the factory owners going to afford to pay the adult wage for all their workes? What happens when allll the factories close? Remember, the most important thing to these companies is profit" It's the same facile austere ideology. Morality must trump business interests, or else people would be shooting each other on the streets to harvest each others organs to make a pretty penny.

If you can't understand the trajectory of human rights in labour then I don't know what to say either. I kind of don't want the world to be a vile ruthless waste land, if you want it to be, okay keep fighting the good fight, but I'll call out injustice and greed where I see it.

Inorichi said:



That'd only be true if they did any of the legwork the Japanese companies 'didnt' want to do. Simply put, CR and Funi are doing absolutely nothing new. In fact there's dozens, if not hundreds of fansub groups doing the exact same job, if not better jobs than they are. I'm asking what does CR or Funi provide for the anime industry. Absolutely nothing. Their audience, their subscribers, their money are all results of fans of Japanese Animation and nothing CR / Funi.

Let's take a look at a similar example. YouTube. YouTube makes money off of ad revenue from viewers. It grows with its creators and it's a mutually beneficial relationship where the creator / producer (Youtubers) get ad revenue, while the site / distributor (YouTube) takes a cut of that revenue. Youtube provides a site to share their content to, improves their player and servers, provides tools and superchat options, and an incredibly large audience where your content may be recommended.

There is NONE of that in CR / Funi's business practices. They simply buy off licenses and then make money off of subscriptions. Their audience isn't built off of their platform, tools, or innovative model, they're just taking profits off of the Anime Industry. A higher viewership does not mean the anime industry make more money. More subscribers for CR / Funi? What does that mean for the Japanese Anime Industry, Nothing.

It's really hard to say CR / Funi takes 'a cut' when animators are living below the poverty line, yet CR can afford to fund High Guardian Spice, Tower of God, God of Highschool, and many more. Not to mention their 'new office' which was quite the meme for a while.

The issue that many people have is, it's not a cut. They're taking way more than they give. Their subs are the same or worse than every other fansub group out there, they rarely promote anything asides from their originals like TOG or GOH. Somehow thats worth a billion dollars?

Please look me dead in the eyes and tell me that you genuinely think that Crunchyroll actually provides value of 1 billion dollars when the entire anime industry was evaluated to be roughly 20 billion a year or two ago.



Like I said in my previous post. LEGAL does not = PAY Anime Industry. Abiding by the laws of your nation does not magically mean you are supporting the anime industry, merely a predatory business practice that profits off of their works. If these western companies did not exist, nothing would have changed. Everyone would still be using some 123456 anime. go com net ru whatever or torrenting anime. The Japanese Anime Industry does not RELY on the licensing fees they get from CR / Funi. To put it simply, a lot of people think these companies are basically bottlenecking the potential profits the anime industry could actually make themselves. Which seems to have dawned on some companies, because with a simple search it seems like Toei and others are looking to do exactly that.

Like if you want to support an anime, you can do it by buying BluRays, Dvds, Figures, etc and actually get something of monetary value. In fact I'd go as far as to say streaming services like Amazon or Netflix are fine, I don't like or support either, but I don't think they're a problem either. Ultimately, an insanely small fraction of your subscription will go to the industry in the end.
Amazon and Netflix on the otherhand actually have an audience not just soley there for anime, that allows them to introduce Japan Animation to a new audience, allowing for some sort of mutually beneficial relationship. CR and funi, they need anime more than the anime industry needs them, yet they make off with so much of the money, it's not even funny. To repeat myself, there is nothing those streaming sites can provide for the Anime Industry, that they can't provide for themselves.

tl;dr Read this If nothing else
Is the Subbing and Dubbing worth nearly 10x the actual content being shown?


I literally just googled this and it blows my fucking mind. Apparently the average salary at Crunchyroll is $100k+. While the average salary of an animator is sub $10k.

Their relationship is not mutually beneficial whatsoever, it's so heavily favoring CR / Funi, it's basically theft, which is exactly why many people think of them as 'leeches' or whatnot.



People aren't there cause they're Crunchyroll fans or funimation fans, they're there because they're anime fans. Their existence is unnecessary, in fact even potentially harmful as people switch to digital media, the people directly buying DvDs or BluRays may diminish as a result. Because no matter how many more subscribers crunchyroll gets, that doesn't mean the licensing fees go up. So I'll ask again, what does CR / Funimation provide? A Legal Way? Legal doesn't mean the Japanese industry gets more money, it means you're abiding Western laws paying Western Companies.



Final Note; I'm not blaming CR / Funi for the low wages of Japan Animators. However, Cr / Funi are a part of the problem imo. If you're using a streaming platform to actually try and support the industry, I'd say save your money, and buy something like a figure or BR/Dvd you actually want.

Zeroflamez said:


I continue to pay for Anime and try to support when I can because I want to keep giving these animators jobs. I know their conditions aren't the greatest but I can't do anything about it and supporting the creation of Anime to keep them in a job is my way of helping. Just as you feel like you can't do anything either and don't want to take any action yourself to get money to them. So you feel you are helping by not putting money into the industry at all. You can have the same morals but go about supporting them in your own way.

Your slavery analogy doesn't really work here dude. Slavers were forced to work and got no money. Animators aren't being forced to work anywhere. They could easily just quit and find another studio or go another path altogether. The fact you compare the 2 is kind of insulting. Same thing with child workers. These kids were forced to do the labor.They have no way to defend themselves and can be manipulated and forced to work easily. You keep talking about human rights but you don't want to understand that as long as the Japanese Studios are following regulations that they are not legally breaking any human rights laws. Am I saying that the industry is full of saints and that regulation couldn't change to be better? No, of course they could. But as of right now legally they aren't doing anything wrong enough or they'd have been shut down ages ago. If you really feel that strongly about getting money to the creators why don't you try to be that voice that tries to make a change? It's nice and all to preach ideals and say how strongly you feel about them and talk about wanting change but unless you actually attempt to make an active effort to help make a change even if it's small or even hopeless then your beliefs probably aren't as strong as you believe them to be. I personally don't feel that strongly about changing the conditions of the animators in the Japanese industry. Would I like to see them change? Sure, but I just don't care enough and I'd be lying to myself if I said I did.

Ultimately the animators are still getting paid, they still have the freedom to quit, they aren't forced to do anything either. No one forced them to work those long hours. They can up and leave any time they want. There's nothing stopping the animators from taking a stand anytime they are expected to work long hours. Part of Japans culture is people don't stand up there. They know something is wrong but willingly conform anyway cause that's how their society is and that is where the change needs to be happening. It's up to the animators to make a change. If they aren't wanting to do that then why should Funi, CR or any other company be blamed and judged morally for not doing something the workers at these studios aren't wanting to do themselves?

existentialist said:


Okay that's fine, that's up to you if that's how you want to support them cause you can't do anything either. My problem is you seem to be justifying the situation. It's literally taken like 20 comments for you to definitively admit "yes, they are in a shitty condition and I'd rather not have that." That's all you have to say right off that bat. acknowledge the problem instead of slithering around it for so long. Then you can go on to say "but I don't think it's CR's has any responsibility" I'd still disagree with that, but it shows you actually get the gravity of the situation.

Yes you are right, the comparison towards slavery was hyperbolic and crass on my part, but I'm trying to emphasize the conditions are more similar than you might think. If you are working 10-16 hour days, and still don't get paid enough to keep you above the poverty line in your country, with little prospects for upward mobility and wage increase, you are essentially "slaving" yourself away to that company. You are wrong in saying "they could just go to another studio" because the industry standard is that they'd get paid the same amount. And the situation is closer to child labour, because during the IR children were given the same autonomy that adults were, in that they could choose where and how they worked, but the dangers, hours, and compensation would be the same regardless.

The main reason why animators getting paid so poorly is so fundamentally egregious, is animating is a high selective and technical kind of work, which demands an extremely gifted drawing ability. Most jobs are replaceable in that people can learn what to do and just monotonously do that thing, but these people are actual artists. They have legitimate talent. It would be like paying professional athletes a fraction of what they are getting. Everyone else is replaceable, but the animators and authors are truly the only ones who make the thing that we like, namely anime. If they all left, there would be no anime.

You keep appealing you law=morality, but that is an extremely puerile understanding of morality. Just because they aren't breaking any laws (which they are breaking international labour standards laws (ILO) because they are coercing the workers so they force themselves to work the extra 200 hours a month, by paying them sub-poverty level wages) doesn't mean its okay and everything is fine. Again, you've agreed with me that working 400-600 hours a month for poverty level pay is immoral. Is it suddenly okay because there are loopeholes in currently existing laws which allow the subversion of these laws? What if there was a law that it's okay to murder people for whatever reason in a country? Is it okay because its just the law of that place?

I already have my occupation lined up, and am part way to completion of my schooling, there's no going back for me. And also, do you even understand how herculean a task it would be to make a change in the industry just as one person? If the shift every happens, I will support it as much as I can (if they need money to make the change, I'll give as much as I responsibly can). But me trying to go in from where I am now and do it is a far-fetched plan.

What makes you think they aren't trying to make a change? Have I not linked you public stories in the media of them talking to animators about how they want change and are trying, but are afraid of getting fired? There's lots of those reports out there, I bet even more of them in Japanese media. It's obvious they don't want to be working that way, no one does, its absolutely insane. If CR and FunI started to speak up, and then the powers started shifting, I bet animators would be overjoyed and get involved as much as they could.

Zeroflamez said:

Dude I've already told you several times that it is a shitty situation and if I wasn't acknowledging the problem I wouldn't be able to make an argument around it. I'm not slithering around any argument. At this point I'm convinced you don't even care about what I'm saying you just want me to agree and have the same sentiments as you.

I do agree that the animators should be paid more I'm not trying to argue that but what I'm trying to tell you is that yes the pay may be the same if they go to a different studio but the conditions may be better. That's the point I'm trying to make, yes they may not have options when it comes to wages at the entry level but they certainly do have the freedom to try and find a studio that does have the kind of conditions that they would find acceptable to work under. If all else fails they still have the option to just go work in an entirely different field. You keep making it out that Animators have no choice but to work in that field and they are being FORCED to work for studios with shitty conditions and that's just not the case dude.

Animators do have talent. I'm not taking that away from them but being an Animator is just a normal job in Japan. They don't view it in the same way as we do in the West. We look at them as creators, they look at them as people that make a product.. that's it. Again, that's cultural differences though. And I'll state it again I'm not saying that they shouldn't get paid more cause they should but I'm saying that maybe Japan doesn't think they need to or should have to since it isn't considered a prestigious job over there.

I never said that using loop holes to avoid labor laws is okay. Nor did I say that paying them crappy wages is okay. My whole point to you was that it clearly is legal for them to pay employee's that much, is it morally and ethically questionable? yes it sure is, but they aren't breaking any laws paying them that amount so they aren't doing anything wrong legally regardless of how much you bring up the moral argument. A company can't be legally punished for having poor morals, ethics and business practices unless it results in laws being broken, but even then the severity of the punishment depends on the laws of that country. Your example here is extreme and not even relatable. There's a big difference between a country having laws that allow people to be killed freely and employee's working at a studio with shitty conditions when they have the freedom of choice to just not work there or change careers altogether.


If you have any kind of argument that doesn't revolve around morals and ideals I'll be glad to hear it, but if not then I think I'm just about done here. Japan is a first world Country they aren't forced to work under any kind of shitty conditions because they have no choice. They have plenty of choice. Now if you were talking about a 3rd world Country where people have no choice but to work under these conditions cause there are no options I'd agree with you 100% that there is a true problem there. But in terms of Japan, it's a capitalist open market country. If you don't like what a company is offering you in terms of pay and conditions go somewhere else. If you don't like what the pay is for that industry, go work in another one that pays more. I'm not even saying that what they're getting paid is okay(I have to keep reminding you so you don't think I'm not since you tend to forget) but that's just how capitalist society works dude. If the animators don't like it they need to start lobbying and striking for better wages. End of story. Getting fired from their job may be a necessary sacrifices cause nothing comes free. Including making changes.

existentialist said:


"but they aren't breaking any laws paying them that amount so they aren't doing anything wrong legally regardless of how much you bring up the moral argument. A company can't be legally punished for having poor morals, ethics and business practices unless it results in laws being broken, but even then the severity of the punishment depends on the laws of that country."

Okay, I've never talked about punishing CR or the producers legally... I've been advocating in a cultural shift, implemented by internal (production companies, studios, government) and external force (CR, FunI, other western players) putting pressure on the industry to make the change.

"Your example here is extreme and not even relatable."
The point of the example is to outline that if a law is immoral, it should be changed. It's being legal or not shouldn't have a bearing or how we view it morally. Even if it is legally okay, if its immoral, we should view it as something undesirable. That is all I'm saying.


"Dude I've already told you several times that it is a shitty situation and if I wasn't acknowledging the problem I wouldn't be able to make an argument around it. I'm not slithering around any argument. At this point I'm convinced you don't even care about what I'm saying you just want me to agree and have the same sentiments as you."

No, I'm following everything you're saying, you just don't realize that you are contradicting yourself by some of the things you're saying.

Here's a good example: "If you don't like what the pay is for that industry, go work in another one that pays more. I'm not even saying that what they're getting paid is okay(I have to keep reminding you so you don't think I'm not since you tend to forget) but that's just how capitalist society works dude. If the animators don't like it they need to start lobbying and striking for better wages."
Now, in the same breath you've said: "if they don't like it, work somewhere else" and then "I'm not saying what they are getting paid is okay" for which the reciprocal to this is, "what they are getting paid, isn't okay" and then you finish the thought with "but that's just how capitalism works" meaning "things are this way because of the system, even though its wrong." You can't simultaneously hold all of these ideas at once. If it's not okay, it should be changed, but then saying "work someonewhere else" and "but that's just how capitalism works" is saying it either okay because we are in a capitalistic society, or that they should just deal with the treatment, or should not deal with the treatment and go somewhere else. Do you see how you are mixing up lots of perspectives? You are trying implicitly justify their treatment, while saying that it isn't okay, while saying its okay cause they have options. You have done this back-and-forth perspective several times, I'm just trying to point it out to you.

I think our main difference is that you believe the creators and animators have to change things on their own. And I'm saying, they have been trying, but they are just pawns in a much larger game. Once the big players start sticking up for them, none of them are going to say "no thanks, I'm cool working 400 hours a month to barely get by." That's why I see outside help as being something that would help engage the movement. I agree that one of the ways to change it is for the workers to get involved and strike, but that's not the only way. And it could be more effective with help, or could even be set into motion with outside help.

Literally our whole conversation started around my proposing real world solutions to this exact problem.

Aly_C said:
When did people become so whipped to the point of defending corporations?

Zeroflamez said:

Nothing Funimation or CR says or does will change anything. Japan has to fix the problem themselves. I'm not sure why you think Funi and CR can just say "pay animators better, give them better conditions". The Japanese have no reason to listen to them. They hold all the cards. Funi and CR are nothing but distributors nothing more, nothing less. If they don't want to play ball the Japanese companies can just go do business elsewhere. The only way anything will change is if the Animators take a real stand and start walking off the job, starting with the most valuable staff and start demanding better conditions and pay. You say it's not the only way but it's sure looking like the only way at this point cause the Japanese organizations aren't being aggressive enough neither are the animators. Even in one article I read a member of the Japanese Animation Creation organization a senior member said that he would start a union, but it would become a full time job and he wants to create Anime still. And many people surveyed in that old article from ANN said that they just enjoy making Anime and don't really look at the conditions as "bad". If no one is willing to make sacrifices then nothing will get done and from what it seems like the Japanese people don't really mind these conditions much and are willing to endure them in order to create Anime. So until a drastic shift in mindset happens nothing will change. Just cause you look at it as slaving, it doesn't mean that the Japanese animators doing this job look at it this way, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Again, you keep looking at things from an idealistic lens. Different cultures hold different moral values.

existentialist said:



For the first point I disagree, I've said why earlier and you didn't agree, so we just fundamentally disagree on that then. No reason to continue that conversation.

Second I disagree, and have also already explained why as well, no reason to go back into that.

Third point. You made a massive leap here. You went from "I read one article that said animators don't mind the work" too " it seems like the Japanese people don't really mind these conditions much and are willing to endure them in order to create Anime." Which is not even close to accurate, most of the animators are living in horrible conditions and hate it, but you are right that some are living in horrible conditions and force themselves to not publicly show their suffering, but won't speak out cause of culture and fear.
Again you've ignored all the times that I've told you how bad the conditions are for animators and have contrived a little story where animators love working 400 hours a month for no pay and. If anything you are being the idealistic one, trying to re-frame things to protect your perspective against insurmountable evidence; which I will leave below.

But I think we've exhausted this conversation, I'm more or less as sure of my position as I was before. Thanks for the entertainment, peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvj-XnVKQI8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl46j0BZR64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K_UfHnJ2jY
https://www.ranker.com/list/why-being-a-manga-artist-is-terrible/hannah-collins
https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/how-many-hours-a-month-do-anime-artists-work-in-japan-survey-finds-crazy-number-unhappy-workers
https://kotaku.com/being-an-animator-in-japan-is-brutal-1690248803
https://www.cartoonbrew.com/anime/japans-animation-industry-isnt-just-tough-its-illegally-harsh-110074.html
https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/7/2/20677237/anime-industry-japan-artists-pay-labor-abuse-neon-genesis-evangelion-netflix
"In-between animators earn around 200 yen per drawing — less than $2. That wouldn’t be so bad if each artist could crank out 200 drawings a day, but a single drawing can take more than an hour. That’s not to mention anime’s meticulous attention to details that are by and large ignored by animation in the West, like food, architecture, and landscape, which can take four or five times longer than average to draw."
"“Even if you move up the ladder and become a key-frame animator, you won’t earn much,” Adachi said. “And even if your title is a huge hit, like Attack on Titan, you won’t make any of it. … It’s a structural problem in the anime industry. There’s no dream [job as an animator].”"
"Working conditions are grim. Animators often fall asleep at their desks. Henry Thurlow, an American animator living and working in Japan, told BuzzFeed News he has been hospitalized multiple times due to illness brought on by exhaustion."
"One studio, Madhouse, was recently accused of violating labor code: Employees were working nearly 400 hours per month and went 37 consecutive days without a single day off. A male animator’s 2014 suicide was classified as a work-related incident after investigators found he had worked more than 600 hours in the month leading up to his death." - I bet this guy killing himself had nothing to do with the hours, he was totally happy, just like all animators!
"According to the Japanese Animation Creators Association, an animator in Japan earns on average ¥1.1 million (~$10,000) per year in their 20s, ¥2.1 million (~$19,000) in their 30s, and a livable but still meager ¥3.5 million (~$31,000) in their 40s and 50s. The poverty line is Japan is ¥2.2 million."
"Animators make ends meet any way they can. Terumi Nishii, a freelance animator and game designer, earns most of her income from video game animation because she has to take care of her parents. On an animator’s salary, she would have little chance of feeding herself."
"“When I was young, I honestly suffered,” said C.K., an animator and character designer who didn’t wish to be named. “Luckily, my family is from Tokyo, so I could live with my parents and somehow get by. As an in-between animator, I was making ¥70,000 yen (~$650) a month.”"
"Databank said, "In order for the animation industry to continue to develop in the future, it will be essential for the animator to be able to raise its economic bottom and improve its environment, and to secure profits that do not depend on the number of productions. , There is an urgent need for improvement measures such as drastic reform of the profit structure of the entire animation industry, such as securing sufficient animation production costs including subcontracting production companies.""
"Nishii spoke out on Twitter with a firm recommendation: No matter how much you like anime, it is not advisable to come to Japan and participate in anime work. Because the animation industry is usually overworked"
"Adachi agreed. “Honestly, I would not recommend it … it’s a pyramid structure, where many at the bottom work to support a few at the top. I don’t see a bright future.”"