| yeah, because when i watch anime one of the major things i look forward to is the ost. if a mediocre show had a really good ost then i'll most likely keep watching |
   ｡⋆｡˚☽˚｡⋆｡ from the days that i've lived those i had spent with you, seemed real 月光 |
| no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no |
| mmm... not really. if the plot's trash then it would be really difficult to me to actually enjoy the show. good plot & characters>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>art & ost. also clannad's ost was average imo, and the art was pretty shitty tbh (those eyes were just too big even for an anime). the plot was ruined in after story and the characters were just straight up annoying so uhmm nope |
 Ｓｗｅｅｔ♥I guess, as long as I have life, all I can do is fight with all my might. |
| well........ OST? as in the songs n shit, NO! art and animation can. Sure YYH or HXH are great, 10/10 but most battle shonen have garbage plots. hell half are advert anime. but while not masterpieces, they are fairly enjoyable bcz of the art and animation. And background score adds to it. but insert songs...... NAH! |
| Not really, I mean why watch the anime at all if the OST is the only thing you care about? You could literally just look up the OST on youtube and save yourself watching the entirety of the anime. |
| Yes it can. For example, some iyashikei anime like Flying Witch, Yuru Camp, and Aria Series |
KuroudoAkabane said: well........ OST? as in the songs n shit, NO! art and animation can. Sure YYH or HXH are great, 10/10 but most battle shonen have garbage plots. hell half are advert anime. but while not masterpieces, they are fairly enjoyable bcz of the art and animation. And background score adds to it. but insert songs...... NAH! Well by OST I meant background music as well lol, not just OPs and EDs |
 |
| Plot is overrated, it's all about themes, characters and aesthetics. |
| I mean paintings for example lack plot entirely (depending on how you want to define it) but it can still evoke powerful reactions etc. So in a theoretical sense I'm inclined to say yes but in a more practical sense it would require some pretty spectacular art, so much so that I can't even imagine an anime which could accomplish this. (As a side note one could argue that aesthetics are narratives so even a painting in some sense has a "plot", so from that perspective I suppose the answer would actually outright be no). |
MemeRetro said: Plot is overrated, it's all about themes, characters and aesthetics. To be fair it's pretty difficult to have a poor plot which has well explored themes. I agree with characters and aesthetics though. |
| No. Even if I can jerk off to the characters, I will only give something a 6 if the anime doesn't present itself in a way that's coherent to me. All the 10s I've given have plots that don't give me headaches and have characters I can jerk off to. |
 |
| No, but I think a good OST and art can make it popular. Personally thought Elfen Lied was ridiculous but the visuals and soundtrack outperform the story. |
   大好き "I just want to be an ancient demigod loli" |
| Yy ~ Say: I love you ~ Fairy Tail Just they did |
| No, they can't make up for a mediocre plot, but they can definitely boost the enjoyment, even if only by a little. |
| It definitely can, but only with a good direction. Kimetsu no Yaiba is the proof |
 |
| I don't know if "make up for" is the right term, but a good ost, art and animation, when correcly executed through directing, can make even the most uninteresting of plots more engaging. On the same vein, a bad ost, art and animation, specially when executed poorly, can make even the most interesting of plots less engaging. And like others pointed out, plot is not even that essencial to begin with. |
HyperLMay 23, 2019 9:56 AM
| You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
| the reason I still aldnoah zero and guilty crown is because of the ost and art. |
RogertheShrubber said: MemeRetro said: Plot is overrated, it's all about themes, characters and aesthetics. To be fair it's pretty difficult to have a poor plot which has well explored themes. I agree with characters and aesthetics though. the point is that you don't even need a plot to explore themes and characters. Some of the best shows at characterization, exploring themes and showing character development are semi-episodic shows like Cowboy Bebop that many people dislike for their 'lack of plot' because they can't appreciate anything else in anime than a straightforward plot. You can even go further and explore a theme with the anthology format, just having a bunch of unrelated episodes and no main plot whatsoever. Like Black Mirror, for example. Having a (main) plot really is overrated as fuck imo. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: RogertheShrubber said: To be fair it's pretty difficult to have a poor plot which has well explored themes. I agree with characters and aesthetics though. the point is that you don't even need a plot to explore themes and characters. Some of the best shows at characterization, exploring themes and showing character development are semi-episodic shows like Cowboy Bebop that many people dislike for their 'lack of plot' because they can't appreciate anything else in anime than a straightforward plot. You can even go further and explore a theme with the anthology format, just having a bunch of unrelated episodes and no main plot whatsoever. Like Black Mirror, for example. Having a (main) plot really is overrated as fuck imo. I agree with your overall sentiment but I would argue that if a series had well developed themes and characters then it's plot must at least be passable because part of what makes a plot good is how well it is able to service these aspects of a work. I think this all comes down to just a difference in word choice. I use the word narrative (or story) to mean what I think you mean by plot. To me a narrative is just a series of events whereas to me a plot is something a bit more. I would argue that bebop does indeed have a fantastic plot because its sequence of events (despite being episodic) is still able to deliver on its thematicism and characterization. I definitely agree that having a cohesive and well ordered story is often overrated. There are many effective ways to tell a story which do not follow this formula. |
| Soul Eater. Watched the show when I first got into anime and rewatched it just recently, and the plot is pretty standard/generic. What makes up for that IMO is the simple yet alluring style. All of the character designs are unique and solid in their own right. The art itself isn't anything special, but the character design is great. The OST, for the most part, is average, but there are a handful of standout tracks. The 2 openings are fantastic, and they never get old for me. |
| Honestly it really can, depending on how impactful the artwork and OST turn out to be, whether it'd be setting the right mood or enhancing the visual depictions of certain scenes in a show. Like, ngl, I've seen anime where the scenes are supposed to be extremely meaningless and persay powerful according to "elitists", but the style/choice of animation and OST (sometimes no music) does not do quite enough justice |
 |
| Absolutely, as examples we have Guilty Crown, ReCreators, (all weak plot animes saved by Sawano), etc talking about music and talking about art/animations there are a bunch of shows that were not the best in their direction and execution like some of the fate series, FRANXX. And vice versa, it doesn't matter if the show is godlike in all instances but in audiovisual matters it sucks. You have to have a nice balance as anime shows are a form of entertainment, the same as movies, that reach us through the senses to tell their story. |
 |
RogertheShrubber said: Pullman said: the point is that you don't even need a plot to explore themes and characters. Some of the best shows at characterization, exploring themes and showing character development are semi-episodic shows like Cowboy Bebop that many people dislike for their 'lack of plot' because they can't appreciate anything else in anime than a straightforward plot. You can even go further and explore a theme with the anthology format, just having a bunch of unrelated episodes and no main plot whatsoever. Like Black Mirror, for example. Having a (main) plot really is overrated as fuck imo. I agree with your overall sentiment but I would argue that if a series had well developed themes and characters then it's plot must at least be passable because part of what makes a plot good is how well it is able to service these aspects of a work. I think this all comes down to just a difference in word choice. I use the word narrative (or story) to mean what I think you mean by plot. To me a narrative is just a series of events whereas to me a plot is something a bit more. I would argue that bebop does indeed have a fantastic plot because its sequence of events (despite being episodic) is still able to deliver on its thematicism and characterization. I definitely agree that having a cohesive and well ordered story is often overrated. There are many effective ways to tell a story which do not follow this formula. Yeah, to me story is like the whole package, the plot and characters and themes and everything. Every show has a story. Plot is just the series of events and how they are related to each other causally, chronologically etc... Not every show has that. Some can just show certain events without necessarily drawing a causal or chronological or otherwise relation between them, for example episodic shows or, even more extremely, anthologies. So much for my terminology. I don't really agree with your first sentiment, the logic feels a bit circular (the plot is good when the themes are good and the themes are good if the plot executes them well) and I still think you can explore themes without ANY overarching plot, like in the anthology series I mentioned. So even if I'd agree you can't have a bad plot with well executed themes (which I'm not sure I do but I might) I'd still say you can have no plot, or such a vague or basic plot that it'd be hard to call it 'good'. You can express a certain feeling as your theme for example, and you can do it in abstract, non-narrative ways for example, like many experimental shorts do. Yes, Bebop still has a plot and is only semi-episodic and I'd agree that it's plot is actually pretty damn good, but I used it as an example because it's widely known and does get a lot of flak for having 'no plot' or a 'bad plot' because a lot of people do even see semi-episodicness as not having any plot. Good to know you are not one of those people, but I kinda had to work under that assumption because ~80% of the time I see anime fans complaining about 'bad plots' or 'no plots' what they mean are any kind of show that focuses on characters and themes more than on plot, anything that's episodic or even semi-episodic. They only pay attention to whether the show focuses on plot developments and plot twists and plot anything all the time, and not to whether it serves the themes of the show well. That is the #1 reason why people dislike Bebop after all, and therefore, in my opinion, it is the perfect example to show how much people overrate/obsess over plot even when it isn't the best example of an actual plotless show executing themes very well. And even if they're objectively speaking wrong about it not having any plot. Democratically speaking, they are 'right' because they are in the majority so I feel like I have to address these sentiments even when I don't agree with them. So yeah, sorry, my years on MAL just made me expect people to have the very narrow and wrong concept of 'plot' (or story or whatever) that I described above, but I do think we're on the same page at the end of the day. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: RogertheShrubber said: I agree with your overall sentiment but I would argue that if a series had well developed themes and characters then it's plot must at least be passable because part of what makes a plot good is how well it is able to service these aspects of a work. I think this all comes down to just a difference in word choice. I use the word narrative (or story) to mean what I think you mean by plot. To me a narrative is just a series of events whereas to me a plot is something a bit more. I would argue that bebop does indeed have a fantastic plot because its sequence of events (despite being episodic) is still able to deliver on its thematicism and characterization. I definitely agree that having a cohesive and well ordered story is often overrated. There are many effective ways to tell a story which do not follow this formula. Yeah, to me story is like the whole package, the plot and characters and themes and everything. Every show has a story. Plot is just the series of events and how they are related to each other causally, chronologically etc... Not every show has that. Some can just show certain events without necessarily drawing a causal or chronological or otherwise relation between them, for example episodic shows or, even more extremely, anthologies. So much for my terminology. I don't really agree with your first sentiment, the logic feels a bit circular (the plot is good when the themes are good and the themes are good if the plot executes them well) and I still think you can explore themes without ANY overarching plot, like in the anthology series I mentioned. So even if I'd agree you can't have a bad plot with well executed themes (which I'm not sure I do but I might) I'd still say you can have no plot, or such a vague or basic plot that it'd be hard to call it 'good'. You can express a certain feeling as your theme for example, and you can do it in abstract, non-narrative ways for example, like many experimental shorts do. Yes, Bebop still has a plot and is only semi-episodic and I'd agree that it's plot is actually pretty damn good, but I used it as an example because it's widely known and does get a lot of flak for having 'no plot' or a 'bad plot' because a lot of people do even see semi-episodicness as not having any plot. Good to know you are not one of those people, but I kinda had to work under that assumption because ~80% of the time I see anime fans complaining about 'bad plots' or 'no plots' what they mean are any kind of show that focuses on characters and themes more than on plot, anything that's episodic or even semi-episodic. They only pay attention to whether the show focuses on plot developments and plot twists and plot anything all the time, and not to whether it serves the themes of the show well. That is the #1 reason why people dislike Bebop after all, and therefore, in my opinion, it is the perfect example to show how much people overrate/obsess over plot even when it isn't the best example of an actual plotless show executing themes very well. And even if they're objectively speaking wrong about it not having any plot. Democratically speaking, they are 'right' because they are in the majority so I feel like I have to address these sentiments even when I don't agree with them. So yeah, sorry, my years on MAL just made me expect people to have the very narrow and wrong concept of 'plot' (or story or whatever) that I described above, but I do think we're on the same page at the end of the day. Well the themes can be as deep as you like but unless the story (or plot etc) is able to explore them effectively they mean very little. So the plot is good if the themes are well explored, the themes can only be well explored if the plot is good (this is using my admittedly vague sense of the word plot, since there are clearly more ways to explore a theme than just a cohesive string of events.) Yeah that's fair, I can understand how the way I use the word would seem strange. After all you wouldn't describe the "plot" of a painting lmao (or anthologies etc) but I'm not sure what other language to use to express what I am saying. Plot is probably the wrong word but I don't know of any others that would fit better. |
RogertheShrubber said: Pullman said: Yeah, to me story is like the whole package, the plot and characters and themes and everything. Every show has a story. Plot is just the series of events and how they are related to each other causally, chronologically etc... Not every show has that. Some can just show certain events without necessarily drawing a causal or chronological or otherwise relation between them, for example episodic shows or, even more extremely, anthologies. So much for my terminology. I don't really agree with your first sentiment, the logic feels a bit circular (the plot is good when the themes are good and the themes are good if the plot executes them well) and I still think you can explore themes without ANY overarching plot, like in the anthology series I mentioned. So even if I'd agree you can't have a bad plot with well executed themes (which I'm not sure I do but I might) I'd still say you can have no plot, or such a vague or basic plot that it'd be hard to call it 'good'. You can express a certain feeling as your theme for example, and you can do it in abstract, non-narrative ways for example, like many experimental shorts do. Yes, Bebop still has a plot and is only semi-episodic and I'd agree that it's plot is actually pretty damn good, but I used it as an example because it's widely known and does get a lot of flak for having 'no plot' or a 'bad plot' because a lot of people do even see semi-episodicness as not having any plot. Good to know you are not one of those people, but I kinda had to work under that assumption because ~80% of the time I see anime fans complaining about 'bad plots' or 'no plots' what they mean are any kind of show that focuses on characters and themes more than on plot, anything that's episodic or even semi-episodic. They only pay attention to whether the show focuses on plot developments and plot twists and plot anything all the time, and not to whether it serves the themes of the show well. That is the #1 reason why people dislike Bebop after all, and therefore, in my opinion, it is the perfect example to show how much people overrate/obsess over plot even when it isn't the best example of an actual plotless show executing themes very well. And even if they're objectively speaking wrong about it not having any plot. Democratically speaking, they are 'right' because they are in the majority so I feel like I have to address these sentiments even when I don't agree with them. So yeah, sorry, my years on MAL just made me expect people to have the very narrow and wrong concept of 'plot' (or story or whatever) that I described above, but I do think we're on the same page at the end of the day. Well the themes can be as deep as you like but unless the story (or plot etc) is able to explore them effectively they mean very little. So the plot is good if the themes are well explored, the themes can only be well explored if the plot is good (this is using my admittedly vague sense of the word plot, since there are clearly more ways to explore a theme than just a cohesive string of events.) Okay no, I don't agree with that at all. Saying theme exploration doesn't matter unless it's done via plot, that's what I see as obsessing over plot and valuing it too highly. Even with the wider definition of it. As someone who likes experimental and independent shorts a lot, I've just seen too many examples of something exploring a certain theme or depicting a certain feeling or state of mind in purely abstract ways, without any narrative elements whatsoever.* By using colors, shapes, music, sounds, pacing, angles or just random imagery or scenes or animation techniques (like flickering) meant to evoke a certain emotion or response or state of mind in the viewer. If it's effective, it's a good exploration of that theme or emotion. Granted, you won't be able to convey particularly complex themes without any narrative elements, but I don't think you need to. And I don't think a theme explored via non-narrative means means less than one that is explored through writing. * That's the one essential part of 'plot' or 'story' or whatever you want to call it, it refers to narrative elements, cohesive or not, causally related or not. Or do you use it in an even more vague sense to also include purely visual or audio elements that I list in the last paragraph? Because if you do then I probably disagree with that usage, that's just too vague to still be meaningful to talk about. However widely or narrowly you use plot or story, it should still refer to narrative elements, to elements of writing in one way or the other. At least that's how I feel. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: RogertheShrubber said: Well the themes can be as deep as you like but unless the story (or plot etc) is able to explore them effectively they mean very little. So the plot is good if the themes are well explored, the themes can only be well explored if the plot is good (this is using my admittedly vague sense of the word plot, since there are clearly more ways to explore a theme than just a cohesive string of events.) Okay no, I don't agree with that at all. Saying theme exploration doesn't matter unless it's done via plot, that's what I see as obsessing over plot and valuing it too highly. Even with the wider definition of it. As someone who likes experimental and independent shorts a lot, I've just seen too many examples of something exploring a certain theme or depicting a certain feeling or state of mind in purely abstract ways, without any narrative elements whatsoever.* By using colors, shapes, music, sounds, pacing, angles or just random imagery or scenes or animation techniques (like flickering) meant to evoke a certain emotion or response or state of mind in the viewer. If it's effective, it's a good exploration of that theme or emotion. Granted, you won't be able to convey particularly complex themes without any narrative elements, but I don't think you need to. And I don't think a theme explored via non-narrative means means less than one that is explored through writing. * That's the one essential part of 'plot' or 'story' or whatever you want to call it, it refers to narrative elements, cohesive or not, causally related or not. Or do you use it in an even more vague sense to also include purely visual or audio elements that I list in the last paragraph? Because if you do then I probably disagree with that usage, that's just too vague to still be meaningful to talk about. However widely or narrowly you use plot or story, it should still refer to narrative elements, to elements of writing in one way or the other. At least that's how I feel. Ok but what I mean by "plot" is not what you mean by plot. An abstract exploration of a theme would still be "plot" in the way that I am using the word. I will admit that the distinction I am making is arbitrary and confusing and I probably shouldn't be making it but I'm not sure how else to express what I am saying (I do genuinely apologize for the confusion). For example if we were to talk about say a painting, I will admit that it makes no sense to describe how its "plot" achieves its thematic ends but I'm not sure what other word to use in its place. |
| No, otherwise Guilty Crown and Pandora Hearts would have better scores. Good music can only enhance what's there and make me buy/DL the OST. |
KruszerMay 23, 2019 12:34 PM
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
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