| What about the Goo Ranking poll that was cited on the English wiki article for Isekai? It was stated that it was Japan only and Sword Art Online was the 3rd most voted option. I would say that it provides some evidence that's there's no consensus over there either. The pollsters were all Japanese which means their opinion is just as valid as the people who edit pages on the Japanese Wikipedia. They said it was an Isekai and because they're Japanese doesn't that make them right since they know what the words in their language mean? |
LordAura said: What about the Goo Ranking poll that was cited on the English wiki article for Isekai? It was stated that it was Japan only and Sword Art Online was the 3rd most voted option. I would say that it provides some evidence that's there's no consensus over there either. The pollsters were all Japanese which means their opinion is just as valid as the people who edit pages on the Japanese Wikipedia. They said it was an Isekai and because they're Japanese doesn't that make them right since they know what the words in their language mean? Ahah, fair enough. Although it was only 360 peoples who voted for SAO and that the ranked second is... that : https://myanimelist.net/anime/30695 So I kind of wonder how serious were the peoples answering, how much trolling there was in there. Or the age of peoples who answered, since it's kind of for little kids. It's not about knowing words in your own language, since we're talking not about he word "isekai" but "isekai as a genre" which is a bit more slang/hobby specialized definition of the word in this case. Kids may not be well aware of it after all. Just because you're native from a country doesn't mean that you're knowledgeable about all the slang or technical terms used there. There's also peoples from outside Japan who vote for those anime-poll, using proxy, I knew of peoples doing that, some of them were very active in those. For goo, I think you don't even need anything like proxy. Also, due to the way goo works, the problem is the person who did it added the SAO possibility. After that ti's more fans voting/trolling for it since it's here. Goo is a website specialized in polling, anyone can create a poll, so it was a total amateur that did it. You could just as much create one there and ask for the favourite isekai, and add SAO in the mix. That wouldn't look any different from what was done here, so heeeeh I don't know. But yes, I concede that one. I mean I'm not surprised, it's the same problem with the "tsundere" slang for example. |
ZefyrisMar 1, 2019 5:12 AM
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| Technically it isn't, but functionally the first part works like an isekai so you can talk about it the same way, it doesn't make much of a difference so I'm not sure why people would take issue with it. Unless they're a real stickler I guess. In which case, good for you. I'm still gonna group them together based on how they functionally play out, not based on technicalities. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| @Zefyris Yeah you could be right about tampering, but odds are most of the those votes came from Japanese fans. I personally don't have much of an opinion either way, but I guess if I had to put my stance on it. SAO isn't an isekai, but its first arc could've been considered one had the series not continued after it ended. Now, I'm not going to strongly defend that stance or anything, but that's how I see it. |
Zefyris said: The decision to give authority to the Japanese to define the term is itself an arbitrary one. Perhaps a sensible one, but still arbitrary.English wikipedia is no authority for that definition, so if you go that way, if we start denying authority to Japanese, peoples from Wikipedia are not more qualified (even less probably) than me to decide of the definition. So everyone can have one. That's terribly silly. A word ina language is meant to convey a specific meaning, to communicate with other persons. If everyone has its own definition for that word, then that word has no interest at all. you can completely remove it from your vocabulary, as you can't use it per se : it will mean something different for everyone and therefore it won't be useful to convey whatever thing you wanted to convey. There is nothing more useless in a language than a word that cannot convey its meaning to others. But to your broader point about everyone deciding on their own definition -- this happens all the time in language, and words have a variety of meanings (often closely related ones) even in dictionaries. Loanwords are no exception: the word "anime" is regularly used to refer to "cartoons from Japan", "cartoons from east Asia", "cartoons in a style usually associated with Japanese cartoons", and "the art style usually associated with Japanese cartoons". You can claim that one or more of these definitions are "wrong", but people will continue using all of them. And the world keeps on turning. Zefyris said: The fact that you're misrepresenting my point as "it may be yes or no" shows you still misunderstood me.However, considering the genre has a precise definition, and that SAO does not fit the definition, there is no "it may be yes or no" for SAO. If I ask you if the Grapes of Wrath is an Isekai, you will tell me "no" (well, I hope) and the answer will rightfully be a full no and not "to what extend". SAO shares common point with Isekai titles but doesn't fit the definition, with no doubts remaining. So yes, it is correct to say that SAO is no isekai-ten'i, but game-ten'i /game-transfert, and saying the contrary is indeed incorrect. The point isn't a binary "yes or no". The point is that it's a continuum. It's about to what degree it shares these or those traits with other shows. A simple yes or no answer is not meaningful in the way that actually understanding which traits are(n't) shared is meaningful. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Zefyris said: did you just google translate the japanene wiki for the definition of isekai? it's similar to the english wiki for the most part, both say reincarnation and transportation are most common in the genre but we want to know if being trapped in the virtual world counts too (while laying in bed, sao and their fucking epic VR). GlennMagusHarvey said: Looks like (1) you are being a stickler on whether a virtual world can count as a parallel universe, and (2) you know how to screenshot text on Wikipedia. Well, you should have checked a little lower on that same page, because it says this:  While it's nice that you do some researches rather than just staying stubborn about your opinion (and I definitely command you for that), I'm afraid the English wikipedia is not really a good/reliable source when it comes to teaching the correct meaning about Japanese words, especially slangs or specific definitions from niche hobbies and the like. That's because, as I've discovered when I got involved with them, peoples who edit those pages are usually NOT able to speak Japanese so what they take as a source are also English blogs, articles or blurbs from English writers who may or may not have more of a clue than you on what they're talking about. As a general rule, take japanese source for japanese words when there's a discussion about the exact meaning. The japanese wikipedia clearly mentions that SAO is involved in the recent boom of Isekai 's popularity , but never says that ti's an isekai, and doesn't classify it as such in the japanese Isekai page either. Furthermore, the sources it gives about SAO also classify SAO as something else than Isekai. Basically, according to japanese sources, there are TWO types of Isekai stories : - Isekai-ten'sei (ten'sei = reincarnated), where character goes in another world as a "different person" (so no longer the "same body" (bodies reconstructed identically as the original one don't count as ten'sei) as he was in the other world. It may not be as a baby however); - isekai-ten'i (ten'i=transfert), where character goes to another world as the same person. This can be literally with his body, or with a reconstructed body (Ex : he died, but a god for example sent him to another world and put him back with the same body he had before). SAO is listed as having contributed to isekai boom because he heavily contributed to that boom by making web novels gets a lot of attention, and that it shared some similarities with what appeals to peoples in isekai stories. It ultimately led to a lot of amateur authors starting to write isekai stories on the web. One reason for that is another MMO related story written on the web that became popular in that same period and made a far more direct link with the Isekai genre by not being clear if it was one or not: Log horizon. ->SAO is listed in one of the sources as being "game-ten'i". So while it definitely shares some of its appeal with the isekai-ten'i part of the isekai genre, japanese sources DO NOT classify it as isekai, and the definition indeed does not fit either. sources : https://realsound.jp/movie/2017/02/post-4134.html https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/異世界_(ジャンル) https://abematimes.com/posts/2286653 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ソードアート・オンライン -------------- So now, anyone can argue all they want that it feels like one, that it's close enough, and so on, but fact is, it's not an isekai. So peoples, feel free to continue calling it one if you want, just don't complain when someone tells you it's not, as that person is correct and you're unfortunately not, but that's about it. the other 2 sources are just random sites that japanese wiki linked, I couldnt find anything about game-ten'i, Isekai-ten'sei and game-ten'i. idk if you read japanese or just translated them very well but I would like to know more about those terms. tbh I think the japanese dont have a clear definition for the isekai genre either. none of the isekai anime have an isekai tag on the japanese wiki page, just a fantasy tag (sao has a fantasy tag too) |
| poop |
| Isekai is defined as 'a normal person from Earth being transported to, reborn or trapped in a parallel universe'. But i also believe that Isekai also falls under perceptions of other worlds, as after all an anime where the main protagonist spends most his time dreaming about a fantasy world would also be defined as isekai. As for the digital world being able to be identified as 'Isekai', i believe that it can be. After all it is a different world and universe. Take a look at Kono suberashii sekai ni shukufuku wo! Konosuba is a real experience, but has game dynamics in real world situations. Basically anything where the main surroundings are alternate universes or worlds can be classed as isekai, game or not Thankyou |
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Esquirtit said: did you just google translate the japanene wiki for the definition of isekai? hah, well, no. That's what you did, not me. Esquirtit said: the other 2 sources are just random sites that japanese wiki linked, I couldnt find anything about game-ten'i, Isekai-ten'sei and game-ten'i. idk if you read japanese or just translated them very well but I would like to know more about those terms. Well I kind of explained them already like they were there for the most part. I didn't explain game ten'i because that was kind of obvious to me considering I explained isekai ten'i right before. It's basically the same definition but in a game instead of in another world. Isekai ten'sei : Youjo Senki, Slime, Spider, etc Isekai ten'i : KonoSuba, ShieldBro, juuni kokuki, etc Game ten'i : SAO, .hack, and any other VRMMO story where we're sure it's not a real world |
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| Sao imo is not an Isekai. Digimon is an Isekai. Overlord is an Isekai. Why? -> "Isekai (Japanese: 異世界, lit. "different world") is a subgenre of Japanese fantasy light novels, manga, anime, and video games revolving around a normal person from Earth being transported to, reborn or trapped in a parallel universe." wiki 02.03.19 Sao does not take place in a different World, it takes place in Virtual Reality within the realms of the same World. "The light novel series spans several virtual reality worlds, beginning with the titular world of Sword Art Online." wiki 02.03.19 Digimon takes place in a Digital World. "The franchise focuses on Digimon creatures, which are monsters living in a "Digital World", a parallel universe that originated from Earth's various communication networks." wiki, 02.03.19 So i like to think of it like this. Isekai are Anime that take place within a different "realm", for SAO the VR Worlds are part of a Game thats part of the Real World, all of this takes place within one realm, or Universe, whatever you want to call it. On the other Hand something like Digimon clearly states that we are talking about a "parallel Universe" "Digital World", which i would consider as a different realm. What also speaks against SAO being an Isekai is that for the Story essentially the Real World plays a huge Role, especially in GGO as it was the main driving Force behind the Scenes, to the whole trick of Death Gun, while a lot of other episodes also take place within reality. Its a matter of definition, does one count Virtual Realities as Isekai? I wouldn't, since i don't consider it a different World, i consider it a part of the Real World through a Game Engine and a Device that feeds the Users Brain with Data. If we remember things just feel real because of Settings within the Devices. If we look at Overlord on the other Hand Momonga started out with a Game too, but he actually mentioned that he seems to have been send to an actual different World as it had its differences from the Game and was only based on the Game. They call it the "New World" in the Anime, literally. "Although the shut-down was already over, Momonga finds that he was still logged in the game and in the form of his game avatar. It appears he was transported into an entirely different New World as its own reality along with the various NPCs in Nazarick who have been brought to life after the transfer. " overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/Overlord_Wiki, 02.03.19 |
| How about digital isekai vs analogue world? |
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