Snkmasterpiece said:M4DMAX said:
Hole shit I did not expect such a massive text wall from you, well excuse me, but I am not serious enough about this conversation to pay the effort to read all that (english isn't my first language btw).
So I'll just state my more general opinion of this matter, so you're not completely let down by this answer:
An Anime can never actually go as deep as a book in terms of how well written a character is, so what an Anime or Manga actually does is suggesting depth and make the interpretation of depth into these suggestions look like they intended, ideally the Anime doesn't put any barriers in the way of the fan who tries to interpret.
That is what I like about EOE so much; it is very abstract and gives you extremely much room for interpretations, the same thought process makes SAO objectively bad, because it places barriers in the form of contradictions within the story, AOT on the other hand takes great effort not to contradict itself and constantly tries to fill potential inconsistencies.
If you want to know exactly how many or few Anime I've watched then go to my profile and take a look, but I actually prefer actual books (if that wasn't yet obvious) My favorite book is No Longer Human.
"It seems you are reaching with that symbolism part about NGE. AoT is not using brown color for wholesomeness lmao,what are you on?"
That was a joke, I know the maker had no idea of the studie of color, because it's obvious.
"Look at the crystal cave in s3 for example"
It's blue, light blue, which is a symbol for communication and blue isn't a generally dominating color in the show, it's an accent if anything.
"People are making nazi memes about NGE"
I am subscribed to the "Eva-memes" sub-reddit, but I have never seen even one of those.
"I completely disagree. Btw the ending of EG is really bad imo."
don't make me laugh, the theme of the worth of freedom is already long concluded just read the classics, such as Kant, Individuality does simply not have a simple conclusion to it, yes, there are some religious takes on it, but to define the worth of individuality is much harder than to define the worth of freedom.
If that wasn't the case than Communism/socialism wouldn't be a thing anymore for a long time.
"we can see birds flying"
The symbolism within the bird is way to obvious, it's taking an entire scene for itself, that isn't subtle at all, also I think you can't find me any person who is unable to understand the symbolic meaning of a bird. they even make it obnoxiously clear, through Eren's -very in character- words ; "humanity is just like a bird in a cage"
He clearly states the intended meaning of that symbol and therefore takes every potential room for interpretations.
So what is the point in using that symbol?
An actual symbolism with meaning would be Asukas puppet.
Or all the flying Vaginas shown in EOE.
"I would recommend watching "genius of eren jeagers character" By soul on youtube"
I prefer to interpret stuff myself, because I own a brain.
Also my bet would be that he just dives overly deep into the topic and use any room where someone can interpret anything at all, to make it look like all of that was intended.
"Aot unlike NGE has a lot deeper world lets not ague this because its a fact"
Now you have a really good point:
The world in AOT is a lot more detailed and immersive, the over all world building is also much more clear, but it also is much longer and it doesn't exactly make the show much better, just more immersive, you know, like Pokemon.
I think I should say that I actually like AOT, but I won't pretend like it's weaknesses don't exist.
If the show wants its mcs to survive without making the use of plotarmor absolutely obvious then they shouldn't do stuff like smashing Hange into a pillar and fall from great distance with no broken bones whatsoever.
"The difference between eren at start and latest chapter is too big"
That doesn't mean the character development is 'good' or makes sense, for example Ken from Tokyo Ghoul completely changed through one single (not even long) event, it's my prime example for poorly done yet existent character development. Shinji and his actions are plainly realistic, Eren is a very typical Shounen protagonist (with an kind of nonsensical twist later in the Manga.)
While we're on that subject; it's bloody predictable where they're going with Gabi and what the point of her existence is.
Attack on Titan is very obviously an action An
You better not read my whole post because you honestly wouldnt be able to respond to some of these arguments, it would be embarrassing. What? Aot gives you a plenty of room to interpet depth of the show same with character actions itself. In fact i always thoight its very exeptional in that field. You can see both sides as wrong and right, you can even agree with the marley for wanting to kill edlian race.
What does you liking book have to do with anything? I like books too lol...
That was a joke? Didnt you just contradict yourself and explained how maker had no idea about colors? Why? Because he chose suitable colors for the atmosphere of the dark world instead of a rainbow goofy color palets that dont even match the shows atmosphere? It seems you do not understand the vibe of attack on titan. Having multiple clors would ruin one of the most important foundations of the show.
Its not light blue, it switches based on lighing. Dont act like an expert, blue is certenly not a dominant color in the show but there is enough of it to destroy your argument of snk being just brown.
Opinions differ i still found the ending dissapointing.
You thought you did something lmao? The bird example is just one out of 3. Why didnt you say something about other 2 that arent obvious at all and can be interpeted by your own will. Fine i'll give you few more. While eren is being chocked by a thug mikasa remembers the past and how life was alway like that and that she just didnt want to see it. We see a mantis and a butterfly. Now, the obvious sybomlism here is that the world is cruel but what if i decide to go deeper? Mantis for example is green and represents cruelty while the bush insids of which mantis is eating its pray also known as buterfly a.k.a beuty is also green. Mantis=cruel=undeniable power=green blends in to a green background or bush which represents the world. Again the wolrd is green,undeniable power, cruel and the only ones who can survive in it are the ones that can adapt to its colors. Which gives mikasa motivation to adapt to the world and kill the thug. When mikasa kills that one thug she gets blood on her face. Erens gives her a scarf that is red same as the blood. Red in this case resembles 2 different things at the same time. The red blood represents cruelty and the red scarf that eren gave mikasa represents kindness because it showcases the relationship development between the 2. Again the cruelty (blood) and kindness (scarf) fit perfectly together on mikasas beautiful face as the 2 sides of the same coin.
I just think you misunderstood erens development,whats wrong in recommending somene a Incredibly done video? Chill...
Every show has its fair share of plot armor no matter what. If it didnt the story would end in seconds. There is nothing wrong with this as long as you prove to the reader that death actual has impact in the show and that there is the possibility of main character dying. Tbf it was never shown from what height hange fell, and it was never actually shown at what speed was she smashed in to a pilar. This things offten look like it to make a bigger effect. Its like complaining about the fact that fiction isnt realisitc. Of course it isnt, its fiction, what needs to be realistic are the characters emotions or the world to be related to ours in some way. 3DM gear isnt realisitc Itself go watch a video about it. We for example couldnt be able to use 3DM gear because with the such high speed of movement our blood would get a lot heavier and we would just end up crushing in to the walls eventually. Its a fiction, again. Read the manga, anime just made it more dramatic.
Im not saying thats why his development is good, its good because HIS development IS realistic. This is why im saying you misunderstood his character. "He is typical Shounen protagonist" Lmaoo i thought you said you can use your own brain? Eren changing makes the most sense wtf are you talking about? People who dont pay attention while reading cant form their own opinion properly thats why im sending you to watch the video. Eren only starts of as shounen protagonist to be shaped in to a seinen like character. What shounen protagonist kills 100 innocent civilians? What shounen protagonist killed 2 grown man as 9 year old and stabbed them repeatedly like a socipath? Eren went trough so much shit and changed you saying his development is not realistic and good is just something i dont hear from people who read the managa. He killed 2 grown ass man at age of 9, he watched his mother get eaten at 10, he was devoured by a titan, people died for him, he lost a father figure to the same titan that killed his mom being unable to do anything once more, he was kidnapped, betrayed, beaten multiple times, he ate his fucking dad only to find out he isnt special. How ignorant do you need to be to say his development is not deserved or unrealistic? He went trough so much more shit than shinji and his character journey is better by a mile its not even a competition. Unfortunately some people like you just cant comprehend his emotion or character writing. He was set up as a bland shounen tard to be shaped by reality in to a beast. How is that not good character development? He was constantly challenged by the world thus his points of view changed unlike shinji that cries because he is scared of getting in to a robot lol. Im just done. They are not even comparable imo, its a downgrade for eren to compare him with shinji. Now dont get me wrong eren is unlikable at the start as shinji but unlike him this was intentional. Watching eren in latest arc is so much rewarding. Honestly even if you are right who cares if its predictable ? Like NGE was unpredictable. Aot for the most part had its uniqe twist that simply no one was able to predict. Why are the titans in the wall? What are the titans, how are they made, who is beast titans, the fact that whole 90 chapters we were just on 1 island and there is whole rest world. Aot is easily more unpredictable than NGE.
Until this point i was taking you seriously to some extent but after you said aot is just a action series you lost all credibility and every "argument" you made until now lost its meaning. A show that deals with socail issues, politics, mystery, world building, even time travel to some extent (titan shifter memories) that added a completely new uniqe dimension to powers in anime, being able to shift in to a titan,inherating the memories of previous holders etc. and you call it just an action serious. Nah you never read the manga. I dont even think you believe the stuff you are saying. You even said yourself the world of aot is deeper and more fleshed out now you contradict yourself.
Im just gonna leave this here
AOT>NGE
The world building, the character development, the story, the animation, the music, the symbolism, the philosophy, the forshadowing goes way deeper in aot and its just executed better. Thats that, i rest my case.
way to much time arguing about it.
You better not read my whole post because you honestly wouldnt be able to respond to some of these arguments, it would be embarrassing. What? Aot gives you a plenty of room to interpet depth of the show same with character actions itself. In fact i always thoight its very exeptional in that field. You can see both sides as wrong and right, you can even agree with the marley for wanting to kill edlian race.
What does you liking book have to do with anything? I like books too lol...
That was a joke? Didnt you just contradict yourself and explained how maker had no idea about colors? Why? Because he chose suitable colors for the atmosphere of the dark world instead of a rainbow goofy color palets that dont even match the shows atmosphere? It seems you do not understand the vibe of attack on titan. Having multiple clors would ruin one of the most important foundations of the show.
Its not light blue, it switches based on lighing. Dont act like an expert, blue is certenly not a dominant color in the show but there is enough of it to destroy your argument of snk being just brown.
Opinions differ i still found the ending dissapointing.
You thought you did something lmao? The bird example is just one out of 3. Why didnt you say something about other 2 that arent obvious at all and can be interpeted by your own will. Fine i'll give you few more. While eren is being chocked by a thug mikasa remembers the past and how life was alway like that and that she just didnt want to see it. We see a mantis and a butterfly. Now, the obvious sybomlism here is that the world is cruel but what if i decide to go deeper? Mantis for example is green and represents cruelty while the bush insids of which mantis is eating its pray also known as buterfly a.k.a beuty is also green. Mantis=cruel=undeniable power=green blends in to a green background or bush which represents the world. Again the wolrd is green,undeniable power, cruel and the only ones who can survive in it are the ones that can adapt to its colors. Which gives mikasa motivation to adapt to the world and kill the thug. When mikasa kills that one thug she gets blood on her face. Erens gives her a scarf that is red same as the blood. Red in this case resembles 2 different things at the same time. The red blood represents cruelty and the red scarf that eren gave mikasa represents kindness because it showcases the relationship development between the 2. Again the cruelty (blood) and kindness (scarf) fit perfectly together on mikasas beautiful face as the 2 sides of the same coin.
I just think you misunderstood erens development,whats wrong in recommending somene a Incredibly done video? Chill...
Every show has its fair share of plot armor no matter what. If it didnt the story would end in seconds. There is nothing wrong with this as long as you prove to the reader that death actual has impact in the show and that there is the possibility of main character dying. Tbf it was never shown from what height hange fell, and it was never actually shown at what speed was she smashed in to a pilar. This things offten look like it to make a bigger effect. Its like complaining about the fact that fiction isnt realisitc. Of course it isnt, its fiction, what needs to be realistic are the characters emotions or the world to be related to ours in some way. 3DM gear isnt realisitc Itself go watch a video about it. We for example couldnt be able to use 3DM gear because with the such high speed of movement our blood would get a lot heavier and we would just end up crushing in to the walls eventually. Its a fiction, again. Read the manga, anime just made it more dramatic.
Im not saying thats why his development is good, its good because HIS development IS realistic. This is why im saying you misunderstood his character. "He is typical Shounen protagonist" Lmaoo i thought you said you can use your own brain? Eren changing makes the most sense wtf are you talking about? People who dont pay attention while reading cant form their own opinion properly thats why im sending you to watch the video. Eren only starts of as shounen protagonist to be shaped in to a seinen like character. What shounen protagonist kills 100 innocent civilians? What shounen protagonist killed 2 grown man as 9 year old and stabbed them repeatedly like a socipath? Eren went trough so much shit and changed you saying his development is not realistic and good is just something i dont hear from people who read the managa. He killed 2 grown ass man at age of 9, he watched his mother get eaten at 10, he was devoured by a titan, people died for him, he lost a father figure to the same titan that killed his mom being unable to do anything once more, he was kidnapped, betrayed, beaten multiple times, he ate his fucking dad only to find out he isnt special. How ignorant do you need to be to say his development is not deserved or unrealistic? He went trough so much more shit than shinji and his character journey is better by a mile its not even a competition. Unfortunately some people like you just cant comprehend his emotion or character writing. He was set up as a bland shounen tard to be shaped by reality in to a beast. How is that not good character development? He was constantly challenged by the world thus his points of view changed unlike shinji that cries because he is scared of getting in to a robot lol. Im just done. They are not even comparable imo, its a downgrade for eren to compare him with shinji. Now dont get me wrong eren is unlikable at the start as shinji but unlike him this was intentional. Watching eren in latest arc is so much rewarding. Honestly even if you are right who cares if its predictable ? Like NGE was unpredictable. Aot for the most part had its uniqe twist that simply no one was able to predict. Why are the titans in the wall? What are the titans, how are they made, who is beast titans, the fact that whole 90 chapters we were just on 1 island and there is whole rest world. Aot is easily more unpredictable than NGE.
Until this point i was taking you seriously to some extent but after you said aot is just a action series you lost all credibility and every "argument" you made until now lost its meaning. A show that deals with socail issues, politics, mystery, world building, even time travel to some extent (titan shifter memories) that added a completely new uniqe dimension to powers in anime, being able to shift in to a titan,inherating the memories of previous holders etc. and you call it just an action serious. Nah you never read the manga. I dont even think you believe the stuff you are saying. You even said yourself the world of aot is deeper and more fleshed out now you contradict yourself.
Im just gonna leave this here
AOT>NGE
The world building, the character development, the story, the animation, the music, the symbolism, the philosophy, the forshadowing goes way deeper in aot and its just executed better. Thats that, i rest my case.
I am sorry this is coming so late, I kinda had nothing to do and felt bad for just barely reading your messages, so now I've read a bit more of it and will at least address a few more of your points.
1. You said Erens character development was realistic, because he went through insane amounts of shit.
"What shounen protagonist kills 100 innocent civilians? What shounen protagonist killed 2 grown man as 9 year old and stabbed them repeatedly like a socipath?"
"he watched his mother get eaten at 10, he was devoured by a titan, people died for him, he lost a father figure to the same titan that killed his mom being unable to do anything once more, he was kidnapped, betrayed, beaten multiple times, he ate his fucking dad only to find out he isnt special."
Sad to break it to you but that is just edgy, not deep or anything, if you think about it, stuff like that would lead to a mental break down, however Erens response was just initial rage and later embitterment, which is a lot too mild. Rage is the kind of response someone would have to something way less unsettling, but if you where to go through the shit Eren's gone through, he'd most likely enter a state that is more Shell-shock like, Shinji is actually a great example for that (see his break down in EoE where he was unable to fight even when Asuka died, he needed quiet a long time to even get into a state in which he could think clearly enough to fell a decision).
I feel like A.O.T. overexaggerated things in that regard for the sake of a more dramatic story.
2.
"Until this point i was taking you seriously to some extent but after you said aot is just a action series you lost all credibility and every "argument" you made until now lost its meaning. A show that deals with socail issues, politics, mystery, world building, even time travel to some extent (titan shifter memories) that added a completely new uniqe dimension to powers in anime, being able to shift in to a titan,inherating the memories of previous holders etc. and you call it just an action serious. Nah you never read the manga. I dont even think you believe the stuff you are saying. You even said yourself the world of aot is deeper and more fleshed out now you contradict yourself."
Being an action show doesn't prevent it to tackle such themes on a superficial level. Also yes, I have read the manga (my statement about Gabi should've made that obvious.) Also I didn't contradict myself, because it is actually common for Shounen to have a broad lore. Hence world building. That doesn't make it any deeper, more complex maybe, but not in the complexity of thought behind it, but in the lore itself; Star Wars is a good example for such a broad lore as well.
"Watching eren in latest arc is so much rewarding. Honestly even if you are right who cares if its predictable ? Like NGE was unpredictable. Aot for the most part had its uniqe twist that simply no one was able to predict. Why are the titans in the wall? What are the titans, how are they made, who is beast titans, the fact that whole 90 chapters we were just on 1 island and there is whole rest world. Aot is easily more unpredictable than NGE."
seems like I answered that point in my last message without even reading it, lol.
"Every show has its fair share of plot armor no matter what. If it didnt the story would end in seconds. There is nothing wrong with this as long as you prove to the reader that death actual has impact in the show and that there is the possibility of main character dying. Tbf it was never shown from what height hange fell, and it was never actually shown at what speed was she smashed in to a pilar. This things offten look like it to make a bigger effect. Its like complaining about the fact that fiction isnt realisitc. Of course it isnt, its fiction, what needs to be realistic are the characters emotions or the world to be related to ours in some way. 3DM gear isnt realisitc Itself go watch a video about it. We for example couldnt be able to use 3DM gear because with the such high speed of movement our blood would get a lot heavier and we would just end up crushing in to the walls eventually. Its a fiction, again. Read the manga, anime just made it more dramatic. "
I think it's quiet obvious that Hange wouldn't be without broken bones if the show would try to be realistic. I am quiet surprised that you didn't specifically applied the point of PLOT amour on NGE, (that would've been funny because Rei actually was implied to ve died multiple times, however that point wouldn't be completely wrong in that case either.) What differentiates it is the degree to which a show stresses it's plot-amour:
- there are shows which throw their characters in situations they just could not have survived, within that category there are 2 sorts, between I differentiate:
--1. A parody, or comedy show, that doesn't take itself seriously.
--2. A show that relies so heavily on it's PLOT amour that the immersion is breaking, because it doesn't give the feeling that the characters are in actual danger anymore, for example; as an AOT fan you will never need to worry about Levi, because he won't ever be killed off (If so it would be close to the end, to create some traffic).
- then there are shows that may or may not throw their characters in dangerous situations, however they never put them in situations they couldn't rationally survive.
However these 'fist rules' only apply to the base cast; if the cast of characters is great enough they will occasionally kill some of to create traffic, however it was -for example- painfully obvious that Eren wasn't really gonna stay dead, same goes for Armin.
"You thought you did something lmao? The bird example is just one out of 3. Why didnt you say something about other 2 that arent obvious at all and can be interpeted by your own will."
because I did not read that much of your message.
"Its not light blue, it switches based on lighing. Dont act like an expert, blue is certenly not a dominant color in the show but there is enough of it to destroy your argument of snk being just brown. "
I actually use to paint myself and am continuously reading and learning about art for my art education/study.
I am therefore very well able to recognize defining and reappearing colors within a show: OF COURSE there are other colors than blue in the beginning of NGE and brown in AOT, these are just strikingly often used (accent)colors, or discolourations. Also you can't just make the meanings for colors up.
OK, if you gonna shit on what I just wrote ask yourself this: Did AOT make you ever at all think about a general theme or philosophic question that isn't lore related beyond it's run-time? Because that wasn't the case for me, probably because AOT doesn't put much emphasis on such topics. |
