What should the "Sane Left" call themselves?

8oomer said:
Why is it up to me to try to explain what looks like an anomaly? It seems to me that the burden of proof of the claim "I'm a huge capitalist, but I still lean towards the left" is on you. Yours is the extraordinary position, not mine.

8oomer said:
Why is it up to me to try to explain what looks like an anomaly? It seems to me that the burden of proof of the claim "I'm a huge capitalist, but I still lean towards the left" is on you. Yours is the extraordinary position, not mine.

Comic_Sans said:
Socially libertarian but fiscally conservative?

Nico- said:
Democratic Socialists don't bother me too much. It's when you are more socialist than Democratic is where the line is drawn anyways. Believe it or not, I do believe in free and universal healthcare for starters.

--ALEX-- said:

There's plenty of people who have core liberal principles and are not socialists...

How do you explain someone like myself?

I'm a huge capitalist, but I still lean towards the left.

Comic_Sans said:
Socially libertarian but fiscally conservative?

8oomer said:
I'm also this. The problem with this whole thread is it was stated in simply left-right terms as opposed to a four-quadrant or even better the 8 values one.

If someone starts a discussion purely on those terms (left vs right) than I automatically default to the traditional left-right positions as regards to economics, i.e. capitalism vs. socialism/communism. As soon as social issues, freedom, etc. are lumped together it becomes impossible to simply label people left or right.

If you want to understand my position best than just think "Milton Friedman". Oh and my 8values thingy

I'd elaborate more but frankly I'm too groggy from re-watching selected LotGH episodes all night until 5 am o.O

aaronrray said:
Quick off topic question: Would you suggest the show? I'm looking for my next sci-fi binge.

--ALEX-- said:

There's plenty of people who have core liberal principles and are not socialists...

How do you explain someone like myself?

I'm a huge capitalist, but I still lean towards the left.

Comic_Sans said:
Socially libertarian but fiscally conservative?

8oomer said:
And Friedman's compass (supposedly) which IMO should be further south.

Frag- said:
Being humble, a lot of people here don't even know what they're talking about :D

--ALEX-- said:

There's plenty of people who have core liberal principles and are not socialists...

How do you explain someone like myself?

I'm a huge capitalist, but I still lean towards the left.

Frag- said:
Being humble, a lot of people here don't even know what they're talking about :D
Alex: the only left capitalist around!

By taking the common sense, you're a Libertarian.

The left/right wing is better the way @8oomer explained.

Socially "Libertarian", ecomically/fiscally Liberal*

I'd agree, he should be futher down and a little more right imo.

Whatever, it's always good to fap watch to that wise old man speech :'^

omfgplzstop said:
Conservatives generally also want to conserve the constitution, which advocates liberal values, so I don't think the distinction is particularly important. IIRC you disagree with them on stuff like abortion, but that's not a values thing, it's a definitions thing. They think it's a human life, you don't, but both don't think an individual's life can morally be ended by another without said individual having a choice in it. There's quite an overlap between conservative and libertarian values. I agree with a lot of conservative arguments on the social side of things, but don't think government should be in charge of promoting any stances on those issues and above all don't think it should be allowed to restrict peoples' freedom to engage in whatever activities they see fit--this position isn't that uncommon amongst conservatives either, which is why there are many who think government should just get outside of marriage entirely or why they haven't really come to an agreement on the drug war.

traed said:


Liberals and conservatives are actually short for social liberals and liberal conservatives. Both are liberals. Conservatism doesn't overlap with right-libertarianism they only claim to be for a smaller government but often boost military budget and enforce pro censorship laws usually in the form of FCC regulations and stuff like that. In the case of the US on a federal level they might overlap some but on the state level they don't. Saying " let the states decide" is a way to hide their actual views on a subject but in the US you see states doing things like trying to outlaw gay marriage so your narrative of it being about non state intervention is false. They might occasionally overlap with economic stuff but not totally since they stil are neoliberals as far as politicians go. In the US the right-libertarians have a mix of left and right social views and conservatives are consistently right wing social views the majority of the time. Although in some other countries it has recently become the opposite of that where they try to advocate for gay rights to get more votes which is what I heard i what is going on in places like Denmark or something like that i forgot. It just differs by country.

omfgplzstop said:
When advocating for limited government, they mean its limited in the roles it takes on. National defense happens to be one of those roles, and they generally believe a smaller military is not enough to handle it. There are libertarians who support a large military as well. If your point is that this is contradictory I'll elaborate, let me know.

I'll believe you on censorship because I can't be bothered to look into it right now (would still appreciate if you expanded on it) but I know that people who adhere to constitutional conservatism are opposed to censorship on grounds of the first amendment. Which brings me to the fact that I actually agree with you that the people in congress are mostly neoliberals, but you're conflating conservatism with Republicans, the latter I have no interest in defending.

pls show evidence that states' rights isn't just "hiding their real beliefs," It doesn't seem like a lot of them have any intent of hiding their beliefs. Why are there people who vote in favor of same sex marriage and still believe in states' rights if, as you seem to imply, it's just political pragmatism?

traed said:
Both are liberals.

In the US the right-libertarians have a mix of left and right social views and conservatives are consistently right wing social views the majority of the time

Although in some other countries it has recently become the opposite of that where they try to advocate for gay rights to get more votes which is what I heard i what is going on in places like Denmark or something like that i forgot. It just differs by country.

traed said:

My visioin is a bit blury atm so im probably going to be out of order or mis some things

I vaguely recall such things as them raising pay and budget for their own government positions. I can't recall the exact event but i recall a few years ago about a huge amount of money being lost and being spent on frivolous things for the political elites. The UK also has their various conservative parties contribute to their ever growing nanny state too of government surveillance and censorship. The republicans in the US are who started the Patriot Act which had the US spying on it's average citizens and unfortunately it didnt end with Obama and although Trump claimed to say it goes a little too far I havent heard him say a word of it since he became POTUS.

Neoliberal is fairly vaguely defined but I tend to use it to describe the priority of corporations over protecting peoples well being. In the US a business can even have personhood. In the US most republicans are conservatives. Sure not all conservatives are republicans but it's pretty close actually.The republican party has a variety of various forms of conservatism it adheres to depending on who is running.

Before you said conservative is about conserving the constitution. While it is true tey bring up the constition a bit more than the liberals here i say at least for the US conservative means conserving traditionalism by american Christianised standards even though the founding fathers had lots of deists. Way further back I heard they also were for nature conservation but it's not the case now.

Well for example in several states it's an atheist cant to hold government office. Though I think those are probably old leftover laws and it seems not to be totally enforced.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/16/states-atheists-banned-public-office.html

Several states at republican proposal tried to outlaw teaching evolution in school and actualy did that for some time. Although they later from failure at susaining that ban are trying to make it so creationism can be taught.
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/02/04/fighting-over-darwin-state-by-state/
thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/316487-new-wave-of-anti-evolution-bills-hit-states

outlawing gay marriage
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/same-sex-marriage-civil-unions-doma-laws-by-state.html
http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/328378-north-carolina-bill-looks-to-ban-gay-marriage