| I dunno about you OP, but I'm happy not actually witnessing a real crime... |
| err...please don't take whatever he/she said as the universal truth or something...though I am not a japanese, some of them would beg to differ..say,just because I'm an American doesn't mean I don't care about the importance of virginity...well, you get the point...every people think in their own different ways so @15poundfish generalizing that Japanese people are collectivists and have inferior moral foundation than the west, like what he/she just stated, is kind of...I don't know...narrow minded, I think? Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
ArdanazFeb 5, 2017 11:33 AM
| I don't know what you're thinking OP, but don't take anime as a real life standard. Jigoku Shoujo is basically a revenge series, so don't take what's happening in it to be a realistic reaction that people do irl. |
| Do people act like they don't give a shit when they witness a murder as in AC games? Honestly I can't see the logic of this thread. |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
| i dont know about vicarious liability ruling there |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
azoth212 said: Do people act like they don't give a shit when they witness a murder as in AC games? Honestly I can't see the logic of this thread. Brb said: I don't know what you're thinking OP, but don't take anime as a real life standard. Jigoku Shoujo is basically a revenge series, so don't take what's happening in it to be a realistic reaction that people do irl. Could you both fuck off if you have nothing meaningful to say? The guy asked legit question and he stated in his FIRST post that he DOESN'T take everything in anime as a real life standard thats why he asked in the first place... Yet you come here and type shit probably without even reading his full post... "Saving face" is huge in Asian culture generally, so I wouldn't be surprised if shifting blame was common, but obviously we need to hear it from someone who has some rl experiences. |
| Between the adult world and the world of kids, there, Holyland exists. |
slovak125 said: azoth212 said: Do people act like they don't give a shit when they witness a murder as in AC games? Honestly I can't see the logic of this thread. Brb said: I don't know what you're thinking OP, but don't take anime as a real life standard. Jigoku Shoujo is basically a revenge series, so don't take what's happening in it to be a realistic reaction that people do irl. Could you both fuck off if you have nothing meaningful to say? The guy asked legit question and he stated in his FIRST post that he DOESN'T take everything in anime as a real life standard thats why he asked in the first place... Yet you come here and type shit probably without even reading his full post... "Saving face" is huge in Asian culture generally, so I wouldn't be surprised if shifting blame was common, but obviously we need to hear it from someone who has some rl experiences. "shifting blame" is anything but "saving face"... this is coming from a country that really taking high about pride that will commit "sodoku"just simply because doing shameful failure... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
slovak125 said: azoth212 said: Do people act like they don't give a shit when they witness a murder as in AC games? Honestly I can't see the logic of this thread. Brb said: I don't know what you're thinking OP, but don't take anime as a real life standard. Jigoku Shoujo is basically a revenge series, so don't take what's happening in it to be a realistic reaction that people do irl. Could you both fuck off if you have nothing meaningful to say? The guy asked legit question and he stated in his FIRST post that he DOESN'T take everything in anime as a real life standard thats why he asked in the first place... Yet you come here and type shit probably without even reading his full post... "Saving face" is huge in Asian culture generally, so I wouldn't be surprised if shifting blame was common, but obviously we need to hear it from someone who has some rl experiences. ... Well then, I'll bite. First before spouting utter nonsense, do think before you post. Shifting blame (especially using the media at that) is already a damning event to use if you are a big company. There are also laws that prevent leaking of personal information, ergo the driver's name would have been withheld in this setting. Now, second, the "don't talk to person x" cliche rarely happens irl, and even if it does, it is almost completely not the parents' fault as they are not really aware of their children's companions most of the time. Especially in a fast paced community like Japan. Third, have you seen Jigoku Shoujo? It's an anime where people damn others to hell for every whit of offense that's directed at them. Ergo, the whole premise was unsound in the first place. |
| That sounds pretty normal? A supposed killer and his family known from the media will be treated badly. People will believe more in the official company's report and that guy is the one who was directly behind the incident. |
 |
Kuma said: "shifting blame" is anything but "saving face"... this is coming from a country that really taking high about pride that will commit "sodoku"just simply because doing shameful failure... I'm not really sure what you mean by "sodoku". I said Asian culture in general, not only Japanese. If you meant seppuku, than how many people do it these days? Then, there are some nasty rumors about japanese juridical system. And shiftgin blame IS saving face, however you want to spin it. For example in China, corporations whether small or big will often give you tons of excuses and blame contractors, weather, star constellations instead of admitting they fucked up. |
| Between the adult world and the world of kids, there, Holyland exists. |
| Not really. This is a common sotry in revenge fantasies, but IRL it doesn't go down like that. 1st off, they wouldn't release the drivers name that easily. 2nd while most companies will say it's not their fault, the Japanese don't tend to shift blame that easily, not because of some code of honor, but because they preffer to pretend that there isn't any blame at all. 3rd, the whole shunning thing in school rarely happens because of the parents. |
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slovak125 said: Kuma said: "shifting blame" is anything but "saving face"... this is coming from a country that really taking high about pride that will commit "sodoku"just simply because doing shameful failure... I'm not really sure what you mean by "sodoku". I said Asian culture in general, not only Japanese. If you meant seppuku, than how many people do it these days? Then, there are some nasty rumors about japanese juridical system. And shiftgin blame IS saving face, however you want to spin it. For example in China, corporations whether small or big will often give you tons of excuses and blame contractors, weather, star constellations instead of admitting they fucked up. don't generalize asian culture especially in things like this... japanese really populare being strict compare to rest asian culture... i put seppuku culture as example how japan used to be, and that value still continous till now... it's common thing to do for them to resign from their position if they got scandal, even it's not proven yet because they are being shameful to name they bear.. just recently, http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/japanese-ad-firm-ceo-resigns-worker-commits-suicide-article-1.2929029 however, they will also doing everything to protect pride the name they bear, even it mean blaming their own or another or not blaming anyone (which what we now talking about)... the face need they save is their colective face, not personal face... shifting blame is doesn't save anything, even shamful thing to do especially if it proven it's their own fault... just recently, honda recall thousand of their cars and admit it's their fault than blaming another... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3835373/Japan-motor-giant-Toyota-forcedc-recall-cars-faulty-brakes-reports-deaths.html they have really amazing resposibility sense and taking high pride of it... for example, train companies will beg for forgiveness simpy because late even for few minute.... http://www.traveller.com.au/sorry-for-the-one-minute-delay-why-tokyos-trains-rule-2udv1  |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Does anyone remember the episode of GITS when Togusa was dying in the middle of a crowded street and no one gave a fuck |
 |
thefreeloader said: Kuromizue said: err...please don't take whatever he/she said as the universal truth or something...though I am not a japanese, some of them would beg to differ..say,just because I'm an American doesn't mean I don't care about the importance of virginity...well, you get the point...every people think in their own different ways so @15poundfish generalizing that Japanese people are collectivists and have inferior moral foundation than the west, like what he/she just stated, is kind of...I don't know...narrow minded, I think?Thank you for your reply. I kinda understand but it just feels weird that how they even got to such a point, i guess you really would have to know some history to know that. they are more collectivists that most societes in the west that is a well known and researched facet of the japanese society now if their sense of honor and neccesity to adjust to the society before their own individual interest is some kind inferior moral value compared to what we have here is a completely baseless and narrow minded mentality originating probably from looking at the japanese society with the west sense of values |
15poundfish said: Faederwulf said: There is no threat of individualism becoming extreme because very few people want anarchy. You can't really be a collectivist obsessed with individualism because they are contrasting philosophies. One emphasizes empowerment for the individual( individual rights and freedoms) and other for a group dynamics (stronger group cohesion at the cost of the individual and justice). Some individualism philosophies can be harmful or short lived like moral nihilism and hedonism but the philosophy that is the culmination of western core values is probably secular humanism plus deity if you follow a religion.I agree that collectivism is not always a good thing, but individualism is not always a good thing either. It's much the same as how freedom is not always a good thing (freedom to rape, freedom to murder, etc.), but restriction is not always a good thing either (restrictions on speech, forced labour, etc.) Also, most so called "individualists" today only claim they are such because they are collectivists following the modern obsession with excessive individualism. It is true that we ought to pursue individualism in ways that it has been oppressed in times past, but not that we should take this to the extreme and liberalise everything. There are various elements in which we ought to have individualism, and others that require collectivism. A balance is always needed - the biggest flaw of present-day "westernised" nations is the presence of unnecessary personal freedom. Our laws don't fight adultery, and even accommodate for it (such as paternity tests being banned in France), incredibly loose public dress laws, no laws against miscegenation, etc. - individual selfishness shouldn't be catered to. It is largely pushed by those who wish to divide and conquer. It is wrong to neglect the individual in favour of the group, but it is also wrong to neglect the group in favour of the individual. |
| 1) Frankly, I fail to understand why "collectivism" can lead to "harassing the relatives of a person who did something wrong". That's pure stupidity, not caring about the collective as a whole. In fact, harassing the person who did something wrong is not good for the collective either. Everybody makes mistakes, and while I can understand that the relatives of the people the driver inadvertently killed might be unwilling to forgive him, other people need not hold any deep grudges. 2) No, shifting the blame on the driver is not collectivism. It's pure selfishness that prevents proper measures from being implemented to minimize harm in the future. Moreover, it builds interpersonal strife that weakens the collective. Maybe I'm used to thinking in bigger terms than the Japanese, but in ex-USSR, people rarely think in categories of people smaller than "all ethnic russians/ukrainians/whatever". 3) Faederwulf, as usual, I strongly disagree with your views, and find them horribly outdated. I also wish to reduce the number of laws to the necessary minimum, and not burden the state with enforcing any group's views on morality. It isn't doing a good enough job enforcing the laws that we really need already. And I feel that every law not enforced properly undermines the authority of the law, and makes the country roll further into corruption. Thus, I find public dress laws to be unnecessarily restrictive. |
| All fiction is an exaggerated reflection of reality. So no, the reaction would likely not be as severe as it is in the show. But similar situations do occur, and they take place around the world, not just in Japan. |
| is this a serious question? anime isn't real life... DUH... |
   |
| It's not exclusive to Japan, I know a kid in high school who got beaten up because his dad was high up in AIG during the 2007 banking crisis |
| I cant answer your question, but in the end its about the scapegoat system. And sadly this still exists in every country, more or less. |
15poundfish said: flannan said: 1) Frankly, I fail to understand why "collectivism" can lead to "harassing the relatives of a person who did something wrong". That's pure stupidity, not caring about the collective as a whole. In fact, harassing the person who did something wrong is not good for the collective either. Everybody makes mistakes, and while I can understand that the relatives of the people the driver inadvertently killed might be unwilling to forgive him, other people need not hold any deep grudges. Please don't go to court because we will lose money for our incompetence as a bus service. If you go to court because of our incompetence you're an anti-social asshole because we might have to fire the bus driver and others at the company because of bad pr. Please have consideration of others instead of being selfish and trying to seek justice for our mistake. flannan said: 2) No, shifting the blame on the driver is not collectivism. It's pure selfishness that prevents proper measures from being implemented to minimize harm in the future. Moreover, it builds interpersonal strife that weakens the collective. Maybe I'm used to thinking in bigger terms than the Japanese, but in ex-USSR, people rarely think in categories of people smaller than "all ethnic russians/ukrainians/whatever". Mr. Bus driver, even though it was the lazy CO that didn't do his job we will make you take the blame for it. Just take it in the ass because it might hurt our companies image and others working at the company. Just be considerate of others and don't be so selfish. I cannot do that. Because I have to guarantee that you learn your lesson, and will not kill people in the future. It's all for your own good, please understand it. The well-being of the nation is every citizen's responsibility, that is, my responsibility, and I cannot selfishly assume somebody else will take care of the problem. Please confess your sins truthfully to the court, learn your lesson and re-organize your usage of transport systems according to safety rules. If I had any reasonable doubts that your negligence was accidental, and not an attempt to earn more money than you should at the cost of my people's safety, I would insist on your summary execution as a traitor. Faederwulf said: Dress laws, interracial marriages, paternity tests being banned and so forth are directly tied in to the negative side of individualism - selfishness. Race mixing for example, is caused by the selfish desire of an individual to adhere to their lust without thinking of the bigger picture, how the offspring will fare, the impact the offspring will have on society, and so on. You are correct that the people that want to divide and conquer don't want the positive aspects of individualism, but they do want the negative aspects of it, such as selfishness, as such aspects make people easy to control. In other words, they want everyone to be misled by their selfish individual desires by creating a collective (group-think) movement to enforce this. It does not make use of individual talent or thought, that much is certain, but it does rely on individual desire. I don't think I've disagreed with anything you've said, this is simply a matter of semantics. The offspring will fare very well indeed. For example, become a president of the United States of America (Barack Obama), or Russia's best poet (Aleksandr Sergeevich Pushkin). In general, I find your twisted desire for inbreeding to be destructive to humanity in the long term. |
| I'd say your example is on the extreme side. No doubt it might happen here and there, but for the most part if it was a true accident companies might come out and say: "He will be dearly missed and we will conduct an investigation on the vehicle in question yadda yadda, we send our regards to friends and family and will continue to increase the rate of proper safety inspections." But they won't outright publish their names to the public. It''s none of anyone's business who it was, just that it happened. But when it comes to suicides, the companies will just say, "He was a hard worker and always put his job before anything else. We wish the family well in these hard times." But they won't admit the man was working 80+ hour weeks and got almost no time off so in this case yeah they'll do it to save face since it is indeed their fuck up, but there's no point if it was an honest accident. It's honestly a case to case situation. Anime takes things to the extreme though, so I wouldn't say what happens in anime mirrors real life exactly. |
| There times fiction exaggerating things supposedly try to invoke audience's emotion more. Not mean it couldn't behave like that in rl but again |
 la critique de l'intention pure |
Kuromizue said: EcchiLordMamster said: is this a serious question? anime isn't real life... DUH... Sigh as i have couple times said before that i don't think anime is real life... but as RP59 upper put it nicely all fiction is an exaggerated reflection of reality so just thought is this more of a thing in japan because it's seen in many animes, but i guess it's easier to show in the fiction of anime than programs that show the "so called" real life premises. Why would someone who's searching for real life even watch anime or any series or read books for that matter? Doesn't everyone want something else than real life when they are watching/reading things? The only thing called real life is the life you are living right now. aren't there so many other non anime instances of this kind of thing that you could ask about? |
|
| Well, I haven't seen the anime yet, but from what I can deduce is that they are blaming the girl for the death, and that the people are rather superstitious in regards to that. I'm not exactly sure how superstitious the everyday japanese person is though, but I doubt it would really happen. it's more of a trigger for the plot than anything else ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
Kuromizue said: EcchiLordMamster said: aren't there so many other non anime instances of this kind of thing that you could ask about? If you haven't noticed this site is mal=myanimelist and i posted this thread under anime discussion so why i should make a thread about something other than anime? what i mean is this... would you ask the same question about anything else fictitious? if not, why ask about anime? |
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Kuromizue said: EcchiLordMamster said: what i mean is this... would you ask the same question about anything else fictitious? if not, why ask about anime? Well if something had come up i might have made, but this one was the 1st one that came up when i started to think about it once again. ok well i can't argue with that, anyway, i wouldn't ever compare the way a fictional character acts to a real person |
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| You're making a valid point here...I don't think in such an event things would unfold quite like in the anime but if you think about it fiction is more or less a product of reality... I used to live and work in Japan and there was a case of a guy who was caught with a joint and got in prison for some time, after he got out he was fired from his job and none of his friends or acquaintances wanted to do anything with him anymore. Nothing serious but shows how things can be finished for someone just like that A slightly unrelated case is when a middle aged guy got caught with few plants MJ in his home, I heard it on the news and they didn't mention any exclusive details (they can use his last name in the best case, Mr Kato/Sato/Tanaka/Yamada etc, could've been anyone), so unrelated people will never know what actually happened So yeah they are collectivist to a point of disgust sometimes and all but in any case anime stuff is exaggerated and more fiction than reality |
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