Valenthius said: and that's what 90% exagrated bleach villians do... so, it's same coin, really...Kuma said: Well 90% of Ichigos choices (It's Bleach in case you didn't watch/read it)can you give me example? i found that turn out to be "bad choices" is more often... especially in long run... "Hey Ichigo don't do that, you'll die" "No i wont" *Alsmost dies* Rememberes some emotional shit, does something stupid, his opponent acknowledges his "will" and decides to let him live, and then the next time they meet hes somehow magically stronger and defeats them. It's like that against every "villain" in the story. i do read, but that's my past.. i don't even remember anything other than quincy arc, lOl. Paul said: This is why everyone who hates on ReZero hates on it isn't it? On_the_Lam said: If this thread is about Subaru, I'm reporting. you guys should adopted your kids already... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: Paul said: This is why everyone who hates on ReZero hates on it isn't it? On_the_Lam said: If this thread is about Subaru, I'm reporting. you guys should adopted your kids already... Not sure what that means but I was serious with my post. I don't want to turn this into a ReZero topic so I refrained from posting anymore than that but basically the most common hate I see for ReZero is hate on Subaru because people complain about his actions and decisions. |
| we cantg get to know their perspectives unless we are told what they are thinking, and no show goes through the trouble of letting us know how they see the world. Except HXH. CherryLover said: well said.This is why the Fate fanbase is so toxic. |
KuroudoAkabane said: we cantg get to know their perspectives unless we are told what they are thinking, and no show goes through the trouble of letting us know how they see the world. Except HXH. CherryLover said: well said.This is why the Fate fanbase is so toxic. The Legend of Condor Hero The Twelve Kingdoms and Victorian Romance Emma to name just a few prime examples says hi :) |
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Zoltor said: well hello to you too stranger who i've ne'er seen b4.KuroudoAkabane said: we cantg get to know their perspectives unless we are told what they are thinking, and no show goes through the trouble of letting us know how they see the world. Except HXH. well said. The Legend of Condor Hero The Twelve Kingdoms and Victorian Romance Emma to name just a few prime examples says hi :) I can only talk about shows I have watched. btw, The Legend of Condor Hero that was a live action show about chinese martial arts. they made it into an anime too? |
| Saying "I wouldn't do that" is a shit argument. Anyone who use this has to realize that the character is different from them, and would therefore not behave in the same way. However, does this go both ways? Is saying a character is good because they act in a way you would also a shit argument? Of course, the opposite of this argument is also shit. Saying that because the character is their own special snowflake and therefore they can behave in any which way they want and it is justified because they are "unique" I find to be very unpersuasive. |
| People who put MAL stats in their sigs are losers lol |
KuroudoAkabane said: Zoltor said: well hello to you too stranger who i've ne'er seen b4.The Legend of Condor Hero The Twelve Kingdoms and Victorian Romance Emma to name just a few prime examples says hi :) I can only talk about shows I have watched. btw, The Legend of Condor Hero that was a live action show about chinese martial arts. they made it into an anime too? Fair enough. Yes and no, despite the name, It's actually an adaptation of "Return of the Condor Heroes" The best novel/story in the Condor Hero series. It's understandable why they changed the name though, so people wont think It's a true sequel(the three novels are only loosly connected, and each novel is a stand alone story). Omg boy did they nail it, it was made by a animation studio owned by TVB, the company that makes the Live Action adaptations, and boy does it show. It's actually better then the live action adaptations, due to being able to perfectly execute scenes, that are basically impossible to do in a live action format. |
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Valenthius said: TheBrainintheJar said: Sometimes the choices that make absolutely no sense, though the stories progression, turn out to be the "correct choices", and that's even more aggravating. It's bad writing, and shit like that is everywhere.Some characters are conveniently stupid though. Maybe the creators weren't good enough at making the character's viewpoint understandable? But yes, some people only see the puzzle element. Character has to defeat Bad Guy/Find the McGuffin, so they must make all choices that lead them to that. But people don't think this way. People have hangups, issues, hobbies and quirks. THESE are what makes a character interesting, not winning the game. How do you define a choice that 'makes no sense'? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: A choice that basically according to the story would never work out, and would, in every possible scenario, get MC, for example, killed, but it magically doesn't.Valenthius said: Sometimes the choices that make absolutely no sense, though the stories progression, turn out to be the "correct choices", and that's even more aggravating. It's bad writing, and shit like that is everywhere. How do you define a choice that 'makes no sense'? |
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| Since this has failed to become a topic about Fate or Re:Zero thus far, I predict it'll touch on Evangelion soon. None of y'all can comprehend my hasubando Shinji. |
KuroudoAkabane said: except oftenly yes, we even got character background, mental condition, expression, and tough...we cantg get to know their perspectives unless we are told what they are thinking, and no show goes through the trouble of letting us know how they see the world. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Valenthius said: A choice that basically according to the story would never work out, and would, in every possible scenario, get MC, for example, killed, but it magically doesn't. A character isn't supposed to make the best choice for them. We hardly have the tools to realize what's our best choice are. It should make the choice that makes sense in terms of personality. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: A character isn't supposed to make the best choice for them. A good writer would know how to that is what im trying to say. TheBrainintheJar said: We hardly have the tools to realize what's our best choice are. How so?? I'm certain it's pretty easy to determine that through the simplest factors like the villains strength compared to MC strength, The stories pacing and direction and such TheBrainintheJar said: Not best, don't misunderstand. I meant a choice that makes sense character personality and story progression wise. There are many anime who just steer the story away from what it previously hinted, and go completely according to MC plastic and fake feelings and emotions.It should make the choice that makes sense in terms of personality. |
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| cause there is some ppl that only thinks about certain perspectives...like their own or their fav characters...and not giving a shit about the others :/ |
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| yup, thats why i could never really hate some characters that alot of people do (sasuke from naruto), but some characters are just plain bad and unforgivable and have no good excuse for their actions (sakura from naruto) |
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Ckan said: It's quite appalling, really. I mean, how many times have you considered the perspective of your bread? Surely it didn't want to be eaten, but did you care? Noooo. I sometimes think how it feels to be smothered by peanut butter. How the spoon firmly places itself across its rough, spongy surface must be really ticklish. |
Kuma said: when you judge a caharacter antics in series, people should aware that what on character mind and how he take choices is not same as us viewer... but why soo many people judge a character without looking at it character perspective and only using their own characterisitic to judge them when they doing something or choosen something is right or wrong? i am seriously don't understand that... Because people judge before their get to know someone and if they someone and it ended bad for that character they will hate and if it ends well then it's the opposite :3 It's natural but people that thinks like that tends to overestimate they own capabilities, eg. watching a football match where the players miss the goal and run on the field, the angry fans would claim they can do better which in fact is not true :3 |
"No matter what painful things happens, even when it looks like you'll lose... when no one else in the world believes in you... when you don't even believe in yourself... I will believe in you!" |
| character's perpective... generally, as long as it follow reason, no objections there. but bad writing usually ruffle people up, normally so. scenes must follow reasons, since people picture themselves in it. bad reactions can't be helped from viewers, (diff. perspective), but the more negativity from fans, the more i believed it to be bad writing. not due to people ignoring it. so either bad writing or/and all are unique. |
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On_the_Lam said: If this thread is about Subaru, I'm reporting. Maine, i was too late and theres so many who were faster :( OT: I think theres some place between showing someones thought process too subtly and shoving it in our face. Id call it perfect writing in that department. Imo Mushishi managed this space very well(if im not fanboying). I dont actually remember the wrong(or w/e you call it) choices in Fate/Zero. Anyone care to give examples/elaborate? |
SpaghettiSpikeOct 9, 2016 6:22 AM
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
Zoltor said: i'll look it upKuroudoAkabane said: well hello to you too stranger who i've ne'er seen b4. I can only talk about shows I have watched. btw, The Legend of Condor Hero that was a live action show about chinese martial arts. they made it into an anime too? Fair enough. Yes and no, despite the name, It's actually an adaptation of "Return of the Condor Heroes" The best novel/story in the Condor Hero series. It's understandable why they changed the name though, so people wont think It's a true sequel(the three novels are only loosly connected, and each novel is a stand alone story). Omg boy did they nail it, it was made by a animation studio owned by TVB, the company that makes the Live Action adaptations, and boy does it show. It's actually better then the live action adaptations, due to being able to perfectly execute scenes, that are basically impossible to do in a live action format. 30##########terded limit |
| Easy answer: Because majority of anime fans are not used to seeing a compelling character. A realistic and a well written one that has flaws and views of their own. What's that shit right? They are mostly accustomed to the usual cardboard cut outs since they are easy to comprehend and can often be self inserted onto. Which means that they will only see the story progression from MC's perspective. Not giving any consideration to the support characters, or the main villains, their motive, and decisions. While they are busy pushing the main character's ideals on others they often unconsciously treat them as their own; even if its temporary, and history has proved to us that people always hold their opinion superior to that of others. They are always right in their mind, and others with opposing opinions are wrong! So they basically villianize and completely disregard anyone with the opposing views to that of protagonist's. " Hey what if the MC is in the wrong here? " that thought never enters their mind. At-least to most it don't, and that is the tragic part. They don't question the MC's motive or actions as they are led to believe so by the author or the creator of the show. The MC can't possibly be wrong since he is the MC right? That's how they start believing everything the MC does is right and is for the greater cause, then accordingly start to blind-fully accept and glorify whatever the MC preaches. I think this is why anime shows these days don't focus too much on character depth, the complexity of their character. Why create a through provoking story which is risky and may end up bankrupting the whole company? While playing the safer route will most definitely generate more revenue and is completely safe as there is a huge demand out there for them? We could just take the easy route, the ones that are aimed purely to appeal the masses. Perhaps with lots and lots of power-ups,and other wish fulfillment crap, and waifus. Oh, who could ever forget the waifus... The sad reality is that this brings them more revenue than any piece of art they put on display because that is just how this whole anime business operates. Since it brings food to their table it is only a logical thing to do for them and we all know how tough it is to live as an animator; with all the underpay and stress. Nobody gives a damn about creating an art. Fuck that! This is 2016. Create as many similar duplicates which are guaranteed to to sell. They have been doing this for past decade and so far it seem to be working. No one gives a fuck about the integrity anymore in this industry... Not the manufacturers and certainly not the vast majority of the consumers; and I only have the consumers a.k.a. the anime fans to blame for this outcome. The people who indulge on these kind of wish fulfillment fantasies limit their scope and only start watching/buying/supporting those types of anime. Which forces the providers to chuck out even more of those kind as they are high on demand lately, and each release is awfully similar to the last one and is also considerably worse. It's the same shit with every release only different names. Yet people won't realise that, or maybe it just don't bother them. I don't have a clue what they think. It's the same thing over and over again and yet people still love it. Hence they will never truly learn anything new. There is a proverb that goes " From the bottom of the well, the frog believes the sky is round and the well is the ocean, and is content with it, and dies in it. They are completely satisfied with what they have and just wishes to be left alone. They have no clue what is waiting for them to be discovered. They just don't expect much from the medium and that's unfortunate. But sooner or later they will grow out of it. Some will, most won't. By watching the same bland stuff over and over they are completely oblivious to how further and deep the character complexion goes. What does character development mean to them? I don't know, maybe goku's 4th saiyan form? I think this needs to be addressed, that the fact that many anime fans are socially withdrawn plays a big role in their lack of basic human characteristics too. Also, since most animators/ manga artists nowadays are introverts like their consumers and have little to no human interactions in their life the only stuff they can come up with are those one dimensional character with ridiculously overused character traits such as tsunderes and yanderes, and since they are made out to appear perfect they are immediately accepted by the viewers and often see the world through their perspective. They are simple so they are much easier to relate with, since all they carry is the basic human traits which anyone can relate to. Also not to mention due to their lack of personality they can easily bend their persona whenever and wherever the situation favors it. Apparently many people confuse it with character growth but they are dead wrong on that. Anyways I think I went a little off topic there but I sincerely hope that it answers all your questions as I can't bother proofreading it and I also have no idea where I started and where I am leaving off. Hopefully it all makes sense to those who read it. Also you don't have to try too hard to understand their though process OP. Chances are it will contaminate yours. |
bukalakaOct 9, 2016 8:13 PM
| I'm never wrong. I once thought I was wrong, turns out, I was mistaken. |
Valenthius said: TheBrainintheJar said: A character isn't supposed to make the best choice for them. A good writer would know how to that is what im trying to say. TheBrainintheJar said: We hardly have the tools to realize what's our best choice are. How so?? I'm certain it's pretty easy to determine that through the simplest factors like the villains strength compared to MC strength, The stories pacing and direction and such TheBrainintheJar said: Not best, don't misunderstand. I meant a choice that makes sense character personality and story progression wise. There are many anime who just steer the story away from what it previously hinted, and go completely according to MC plastic and fake feelings and emotions.It should make the choice that makes sense in terms of personality. 'MC plastic and fake feelings' don't necessarily result from stupid choices. People think they make the most reasonable choices, but they don't. Parents believe that by ranting 24/7 about studies, they're helping their child. All they do is narrow their vision. My commanders in the military did a lot of stupid shit. If you don't show your character making mistakes, you're writing a convenient story. |
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bukalaka said: -----SNIP---- the further i read, i start all your whole rant is all about "anime this days is bad, creativity is dying!" i don't even state anything about how story is good or bad, i just stating why people so egocentric about their view even in anime that make them refuse to understand take a look at character perspective and understood them a little their antics... it has nothing to do with overall quality of series it self but it does help you see series in different light... that's all.. also make realistic human carasteristics is not necessary since what considered realistic human characteristic is change over the years and from place to place... you have understood the settings, author culture background, what influenced the series, and what supposed the series do, i doubt any secondary reader like us even understand that... not even this can easily apply IRL... also, when an art is contamined me, isn't it even good thing since make a series impactful? i don't understand how it is bad... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| [quote=Kuma message=48091170] bukalaka said: -----SNIP---- the further i read, i start all your whole rant is all about "anime this days is bad, creativity is dying!" i don't even state anything about how story is good or bad, i just stating why people so egocentric about their view even in anime that make them refuse to understand take a look at character perspective and understood them a little their antics... it has nothing to do with overall quality of series it self but it does help you see series in different light... that's all.. also make realistic human carasteristics is not necessary since what considered realistic human characteristic is change over the years and from place to place... you have understood the settings, author culture background, what influenced the series, and what supposed the series do, i doubt any secondary reader like us even understand that... not even this can easily apply IRL... also, when an art is contamined me, isn't it even good thing since m Kuma said: There is more to it than just a petty rant. I think its hypocritical of you to question these issues as you are the very person to start a complain thread related to the result that these issues bring.bukalaka said: -----SNIP---- the further i read, i start all your whole rant is all about "anime this days is bad, creativity is dying!" i don't even state anything about how story is good or bad, i just stating why people so egocentric about their view even in anime that make them refuse to understand take a look at character perspective and understood them a little their antics... it has nothing to do with overall quality of series it self but it does help you see series in different light... that's all.. also make realistic human carasteristics is not necessary since what considered realistic human characteristic is change over the years and from place to place... you have understood the settings, author culture background, what influenced the series, and what supposed the series do, i doubt any secondary reader like us even understand that... not even this can easily apply IRL... also, when an art is contamined me, isn't it even good thing since make a series impactful? i don't understand how it is bad... "the further i read, i start all your whole rant is all about "anime this days is bad, creativity is dying!" Yes, I whole heartedly believe that anime is dying. I am talking about it's integrity, not financial crap. "i don't even state anything about how story is good or bad, i just stating why people so egocentric about their view even in anime that make them refuse to understand take a look at character perspective and understood them a little their antics... it has nothing to do with overall quality of series it self but it does help you see series in different light... that's all.." You were pretty vague with what you were asking and I believe I have answered that question already. Though it may not have seemed to be directly correlated. I mean if it was, you would already know and wouldn't be asking this very question. " also make realistic human carasteristics is not necessary since what considered realistic human characteristic is change over the years and from place to place... you have understood the settings, author culture background, what influenced the series, and what supposed the series do, i doubt any secondary reader like us even understand that... not even this can easily apply IRL..." What I meant by realistic is a character who acts in a believable manner. Perhaps has some human aspects to him such as hobbies, dreams, negative behavior pattern such as procrastinating, overspending, fidgeting etc. Basically a character with some humanly weaknesses. They don't have to act like the real world people but what they say or do must fit within the human criteria, and must never break their character or immersion. I will tell you why this is relevant now. It's because most of the character you talk about feel unnatural that hey don't seem human to most viewers thus they will completely eradicate their existence in their mind. They are just a empty husk with a sole purpose of progressing the story line, or making the MC look alpha when he or she defeats them. Also, you are right, human characteristic change from time to time, and over the years it has changed vastly although not completely for some people. But unlike in anime it does not change overnight, or when the situation calls for it. That was the problem I was addressing on my main post. " also, when an art is contained me, isn't it even good thing since make a series impactful? i don't understand how it is bad..." No it is not, it just leaves a illusion of impact and distracts your attention with pretty visuals. I mean good art I always welcome but these days they just use it to cover up the flawed story and its characters. It essentially clouds your judgement with pretty colours and the sooner you realise that the better. |
| I'm never wrong. I once thought I was wrong, turns out, I was mistaken. |
| I think it's a matter of experience. Before I ever got into a real relationship years ago, I was annoyed with many romance genre or the character's indecisiveness. Once you "experience" more and, for me, learned more of human social and cognitive psychology, it got much easier to connect and really see the character's role. These characters are being written by people much older than most of us (I'm assuming) and they've generally seen more to life than we have. Some are cliche tropes, but these all exist in the real world and the author/studios try to fit them all in a 12 episode format. I'm no anime connoisseur, but I plan to watch my old animes I watched long ago since I'm now in the working field instead of school. I feel I'll have different views with my experiences. I just recently watched an old anime (Kimi no iru Machi) and it got bad reviews about doing injustice to the source, but I really thought it was well made that I never felt this heavy drop in my chest ever. I'm simply assuming most anime watchers are teens or young adults who just haven't experiences much of the word yet. |
ifeelgood said: I think it's a matter of experience. Before I ever got into a real relationship years ago, I was annoyed with many romance genre or the character's indecisiveness. Once you "experience" more and, for me, learned more of human social and cognitive psychology, it got much easier to connect and really see the character's role. These characters are being written by people much older than most of us (I'm assuming) and they've generally seen more to life than we have. Some are cliche tropes, but these all exist in the real world and the author/studios try to fit them all in a 12 episode format. I'm no anime connoisseur, but I plan to watch my old animes I watched long ago since I'm now in the working field instead of school. I feel I'll have different views with my experiences. I just recently watched an old anime (Kimi no iru Machi) and it got bad reviews about doing injustice to the source, but I really thought it was well made that I never felt this heavy drop in my chest ever. I'm simply assuming most anime watchers are teens or young adults who just haven't experiences much of the word yet. Old age makes you more empathetic. I now read YA literature and see anime about teenagers and don't mind their silly behavior. I know I was just as irrational as them. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Probably because a lot of people only enjoy the surface of the story and don't want to think deeply about it. |
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bukalaka said: There is more to it than just a petty rant. I think its hypocritical of you to question these issues as you are the very person to start a complain thread related to the result that these issues bring. Yes, I whole heartedly believe that anime is dying. I am talking about it's integrity, not financial crap. except you bring something that i don't even talking about with "hurr durr, anime this days is bad yo".. my problem in people ignoring perspective used for plenty users for every series no matter what year it is... my another latest problem in here was over rev!, which like 20 years old currently searching for rereading BTW... i also i don't belive in this "anime is dying" crap... every season always have bunch of forgottable one with few memorable gold... it always been like that and always will be... all of problem you mentioned was nothing new, NOR special to thsi decade... the real problem most of series this days too rely being ads revenue which make them souless quick made series... but i am more original source reader than anime viewer in the first place, so i don't have any problem personaly... bukalaka said: You were pretty vague with what you were asking and I believe I have answered that question already. Though it may not have seemed to be directly correlated. I mean if it was, you would already know and wouldn't be asking this very question. all of you write is how anime this days is bad, the one you only have correlation with my question is author this days can't catering your needs write good character... sorry, every writer has their own mind what mean goods.. just because you think so, doesn't mean you are the only one that correct... art is not science.... bukalaka said: What I meant by realistic is a character who acts in a believable manner. Perhaps has some human aspects to him such as hobbies, dreams, negative behavior pattern such as procrastinating, overspending, fidgeting etc. Basically a character with some humanly weaknesses. They don't have to act like the real world people but what they say or do must fit within the human criteria, and must never break their character or immersion. I will tell you why this is relevant now. It's because most of the character you talk about feel unnatural that hey don't seem human to most viewers thus they will completely eradicate their existence in their mind. They are just a empty husk with a sole purpose of progressing the story line, or making the MC look alpha when he or she defeats them. Also, you are right, human characteristic change from time to time, and over the years it has changed vastly although not completely for some people. But unlike in anime it does not change overnight, or when the situation calls for it. That was the problem I was addressing on my main post. i start to think we talking about different things... all of thing you mention is what make character good for you... okay... everyone have their prefference, yes... my problem is when thos prefference is cluding their judgement to the character antics... not the character it self... exactly, because people like you, just because you dislike the character, you ignoring everything about character, their surrounding, their beckground, and their action, yet blaming the series for it when you are the one that ignoring it... also i don't even talking about character when talking about realistic, but what considered realistic even IRL is different... just because it look realistic for you, doesn't mean realistic for everyone... bukalaka said: No it is not, it just leaves a illusion of impact and distracts your attention with pretty visuals. I mean good art I always welcome but these days they just use it to cover up the flawed story and its characters. It essentially clouds your judgement with pretty colours and the sooner you realise that the better. that's cute coming for you... i bet you can't even understood what i put in my favorites... yes, visual can make impact, doesn't mean impact always using visual... that's why shitcom is great... ifeelgood said: I think it's a matter of experience. Before I ever got into a real relationship years ago, I was annoyed with many romance genre or the character's indecisiveness. Once you "experience" more and, for me, learned more of human social and cognitive psychology, it got much easier to connect and really see the character's role. These characters are being written by people much older than most of us (I'm assuming) and they've generally seen more to life than we have. Some are cliche tropes, but these all exist in the real world and the author/studios try to fit them all in a 12 episode format. I'm no anime connoisseur, but I plan to watch my old animes I watched long ago since I'm now in the working field instead of school. I feel I'll have different views with my experiences. I just recently watched an old anime (Kimi no iru Machi) and it got bad reviews about doing injustice to the source, but I really thought it was well made that I never felt this heavy drop in my chest ever. I'm simply assuming most anime watchers are teens or young adults who just haven't experiences much of the word yet. the further this thread goes, i starting to agree with your post personaly, which is sad... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Personally, I always found understanding perspectives an incredibly fun thing to do. It helps you open your mind to different points of view and allows you to understand the characters without judging them for their actions. |
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| Spot on! That's why many hated tsundere girls. Even though tsundere characters are actually pretty easy to be understood why they acted like that. What's worse is they would call them bitches. I'm crying to sleep every night. |
otterman965 said: as for tsundere, understanding their character is okay... but when they are being abusive, that's the problem... as hard as i try to understand that, violance still a NO NO...Spot on! That's why many hated tsundere girls. Even though tsundere characters are actually pretty easy to be understood why they acted like that. What's worse is they would call them bitches. I'm crying to sleep every night. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| yes! i noticed it too sometimes. but anime is about entertainment. if something happen that against the viewers will. well, they have to say their opinions. |
The world is cruel, ugly and pitiful. Let's watch anime and make it colorful |
| Yes, there are always people like that, not limited to anime audience. I can't read anything Gurren Lagann related because I get annoyed at how 90% of people treat Rossiu Adai. |
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Kuma said: otterman965 said: as for tsundere, understanding their character is okay... but when they are being abusive, that's the problem... as hard as i try to understand that, violance still a NO NO...Spot on! That's why many hated tsundere girls. Even though tsundere characters are actually pretty easy to be understood why they acted like that. What's worse is they would call them bitches. I'm crying to sleep every night. Surely they didn't punch the main character because they loved punching? Surely they did it because they didn't know how to act? |
Kuma said: Perhaps so, I have no idea why I am failing to get my point across. Maybe it is as you say after all. We are both discussing two different matter. Of course, the fault starts from me; since I am the one who interpreted it wrong. Apologies.bukalaka said: There is more to it than just a petty rant. I think its hypocritical of you to question these issues as you are the very person to start a complaint thread related to the result that these issues bring. Yes, I whole heartedly believe that anime is dying. I am talking about it's integrity, not financial crap. except you bring something that i don't even talking about with "hurr durr, anime this days is bad yo".. my problem in people ignoring perspective used for plenty users for every series no matter what year it is... my another latest problem in here was over rev!, which like 20 years old currently searching for rereading BTW... i also i don't belive in this "anime is dying" crap... every season always have bunch of forgottable one with few memorable gold... it always been like that and always will be... all of problem you mentioned was nothing new, NOR special to thsi decade... the real problem most of series this days too rely being ads revenue which make them souless quick made series... but i am more original source reader than anime viewer in the first place, so i don't have any problem personaly... bukalaka said: You were pretty vague with what you were asking and I believe I have answered that question already. Though it may not have seemed to be directly correlated. I mean if it was, you would already know and wouldn't be asking this very question. all of you write is how anime this days is bad, the one you only have correlation with my question is author this days can't catering your needs write good character... sorry, every writer has their own mind what mean goods.. just because you think so, doesn't mean you are the only one that correct... art is not science.... bukalaka said: What I meant by realistic is a character who acts in a believable manner. Perhaps has some human aspects to him such as hobbies, dreams, negative behavior pattern such as procrastinating, overspending, fidgeting etc. Basically a character with some humanly weaknesses. They don't have to act like the real world people but what they say or do must fit within the human criteria, and must never break their character or immersion. I will tell you why this is relevant now. It's because most of the character you talk about feel unnatural that hey don't seem human to most viewers thus they will completely eradicate their existence in their mind. They are just a empty husk with a sole purpose of progressing the story line, or making the MC look alpha when he or she defeats them. Also, you are right, human characteristic change from time to time, and over the years it has changed vastly although not completely for some people. But unlike in anime it does not change overnight, or when the situation calls for it. That was the problem I was addressing on my main post. i start to think we talking about different things... all of thing you mention is what make character good for you... okay... everyone have their prefference, yes... my problem is when thos prefference is cluding their judgement to the character antics... not the character it self... exactly, because people like you, just because you dislike the character, you ignoring everything about character, their surrounding, their beckground, and their action, yet blaming the series for it when you are the one that ignoring it... also i don't even talking about character when talking about realistic, but what considered realistic even IRL is different... just because it look realistic for you, doesn't mean realistic for everyone... bukalaka said: No it is not, it just leaves a illusion of impact and distracts your attention with pretty visuals. I mean good art I always welcome but these days they just use it to cover up the flawed story and its characters. It essentially clouds your judgement with pretty colours and the sooner you realise that the better. that's cute coming for you... i bet you can't even understood what i put in my favorites... yes, visual can make impact, doesn't mean impact always using visual... that's why shitcom is great... ifeelgood said: I think it's a matter of experience. Before I ever got into a real relationship years ago, I was annoyed with many romance genre or the character's indecisiveness. Once you "experience" more and, for me, learned more of human social and cognitive psychology, it got much easier to connect and really see the character's role. These characters are being written by people much older than most of us (I'm assuming) and they've generally seen more to life than we have. Some are cliche tropes, but these all exist in the real world and the author/studios try to fit them all in a 12 episode format. I'm no anime connoisseur, but I plan to watch my old animes I watched long ago since I'm now in the working field instead of school. I feel I'll have different views with my experiences. I just recently watched an old anime (Kimi no iru Machi) and it got bad reviews about doing injustice to the source, but I really thought it was well made that I never felt this heavy drop in my chest ever. I'm simply assuming most anime watchers are teens or young adults who just haven't experiences much of the word yet. the further this thread goes, i starting to agree with your post personaly, which is sad... |
| I'm never wrong. I once thought I was wrong, turns out, I was mistaken. |
| You see I sometimes believe that also, but I really think you are overthinking this ALL badly. People and characters are supposedly to like cause if their personal features and that can be seen as a bad or good thing. Overall I see this a major reason why Subaru character in Re zero isn't like by a lot of people |
| "You can't spell slaughter without laughter". |
Kuma said: the further this thread goes, i starting to agree with your post personaly, which is sad... What is sad? The audience or the idea of not having "lived" more? Another thing I want to add is that these characters are "made" following eastern/Japanese culture, not western. Western and eastern views on personality and motives are quite different according to many psychological studies |
| People are bad at empathy, especially for characters who break convention. |
HueyLion said: yaeh, probably because i am overthingking.. i am just kinda wondering why people criticizing something that the answer is can be resolving by simply by take a look character little deeper and less influenced by your own view...You see I sometimes believe that also, but I really think you are overthinking this ALL badly. People and characters are supposedly to like cause if their personal features and that can be seen as a bad or good thing. otterman965 said: if you talking about stuff like minami from working, yes because actually didn't know how to act... but if something like kirino from oreimo, i still can't...Kuma said: as for tsundere, understanding their character is okay... but when they are being abusive, that's the problem... as hard as i try to understand that, violance still a NO NO... Surely they didn't punch the main character because they loved punching? Surely they did it because they didn't know how to act? ifeelgood said: Kuma said: the further this thread goes, i starting to agree with your post personaly, which is sad... What is sad? The audience or the idea of not having "lived" more? both, the idea that audience not lived more... and don't want to know more... ifeelgood said: Another thing I want to add is that these characters are "made" following eastern/Japanese culture, not western. Western and eastern views on personality and motives are quite different according to many psychological studies FYI, i am an eastern person, live in eastern comunity... coming to MAL is really big experience for me... Tpfang56 said: can you explan more about break convention?People are bad at empathy, especially for characters who break convention. |
KumaOct 11, 2016 5:49 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: Tpfang56 said: can you explan more about break convention?People are bad at empathy, especially for characters who break convention. I mean characters whose actions or personality don't align with what our society considers "acceptable". One example is Shinji Ikari. In the Japanese fandom, there is not much controversy about his character, but in the Western fandom, people hate him being "useless" and "a bitch" and other shitty things like that. I think it's pretty clear that NGE is supposed to be a realistic deconstruction of the mecha genre and Shinji's character as the protagonist along with it. He's a damaged person with a lot of mental health issues and people just shit all over him because he's not perfect and badass from the get go and suffers a lot of mental breakdowns? I understand that he's not the most entertaining or fun to self-insert into like a lot of other escapist media MCs, but that's because NGE is not about escapism at all. People hating on Shinji is a great example of a lack of empathy towards vulnerable male characters. |
Kuma said: otterman965 said: if you talking about stuff like minami from working, yes because actually didn't know how to act... but if something like kirino from oreimo, i still can't...Surely they didn't punch the main character because they loved punching? Surely they did it because they didn't know how to act? It still doesn't mean she's violent because she's tsundere. There might be correlation there but it's not necessarily the cause. Nami from One Piece is not a tsunderr yet she beat the guys up pretty often. Tomoyo from Clannad did too to Sunohara. Not to mention Yuno from Mirai Nikki. See there, it has nothing to do with being tsundere but somehow people just can't get it. |
| It's just being human. We see the world through our own eyes, of course our perspective will seem to be most important to us. And some people just go the extra mile to see it in different perspectives. |
| (*ﾟ∀ﾟ)ノ |
Tpfang56 said: Kuma said: can you explan more about break convention? I mean characters whose actions or personality don't align with what our society considers "acceptable". One example is Shinji Ikari. In the Japanese fandom, there is not much controversy about his character, but in the Western fandom, people hate him being "useless" and "a bitch" and other shitty things like that. I think it's pretty clear that NGE is supposed to be a realistic deconstruction of the mecha genre and Shinji's character as the protagonist along with it. He's a damaged person with a lot of mental health issues and people just shit all over him because he's not perfect and badass from the get go and suffers a lot of mental breakdowns? I understand that he's not the most entertaining or fun to self-insert into like a lot of other escapist media MCs, but that's because NGE is not about escapism at all. People hating on Shinji is a great example of a lack of empathy towards vulnerable male characters. As a person from Western origin but with a military best (non-combat), I actually found Shinji convincing. Maybe these people aren't close to military experience. People in the military aren't cold hard badasses, but often leave the battlefield with mental issues. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Well, sometimes stupid things ARE stupid, i mean it's not "perspectively stupid", but it's basically stupid. So, it makes sense that some people hates characters with stupid decisions. Because their stupid decisions are basically stupid not perspectively. Just remember, not all things can be related to perspective. |
 Ne: Dreamy Kid Fi: Edgelord Te: Shit-talker Si: Borderline OCD |
Kaze_Deimoz said: but all of things that done by character is because character? can you give me example?Well, sometimes stupid things ARE stupid, i mean it's not "perspectively stupid", but it's basically stupid. So, it makes sense that some people hates characters with stupid decisions. Because their stupid decisions are basically stupid not perspectively. Just remember, not all things can be related to perspective. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
TheBrainintheJar said: As a person from Western origin but with a military best (non-combat), I actually found Shinji convincing. Maybe these people aren't close to military experience. People in the military aren't cold hard badasses, but often leave the battlefield with mental issues. Lol most young people's exposure to the military seems to be from playing military shooter video games. And Shinji's not just a solider, isn't he? He's a child soldier, and NGE makes it painfully obvious how damaging that would be for 14 year olds, let alone those who were traumatized even before they became a pilot. |
| This was literally my entire argument in Psycho-Pass 2. People kept bashing the newbie for not having the information we have. Yeah, she's done stupid shit but if you were in her shoes, you'd have done the same "stupid" shit too. |
 |
| perspective iz 4 nerdz tbh smh famalam |
Tpfang56 said: TheBrainintheJar said: As a person from Western origin but with a military best (non-combat), I actually found Shinji convincing. Maybe these people aren't close to military experience. People in the military aren't cold hard badasses, but often leave the battlefield with mental issues. Lol most young people's exposure to the military seems to be from playing military shooter video games. And Shinji's not just a solider, isn't he? He's a child soldier, and NGE makes it painfully obvious how damaging that would be for 14 year olds, let alone those who were traumatized even before they became a pilot. Yes, and people forget that many soldiers start off as children. In Israel we get enlisted at age 18. I think in older times, younger people saw the battlefield. Children aren't the exception in the battlefield but the norm. That's why all the 'battle school' anime make sense, age-wise. A 16-year-old body has time to develop and can be trained. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
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