| Honorifics should never be translated. Only shitty fansubbers like Yibis do that. I also prefer leaving terms and titles untranslated also. Like Shichibukai instead of Seven Warlords of the Sea. |
meideiemkar said: 1 month old thread. I believe is OK to post. After watching many series subbed with different styles and in 2 languages (English and Greek), I reached to a conclusion. Honorifics and pronominal nouns (like watashi/boku/ore/anata/kimi/omae etc) can and should be translated. The only barrier is the ability of the fansubber to express in his native language. I would fail as a JP to ENG subber but I'm pretty confident that I can deliver a great translation in Greek leaving 0 Japanese words in it. There is no translation for honorifics. Honorifics should NEVER be translated. San does not mean dear. |
| I don't like seeing -san and stuff in subs, it looks awkward to me. However, they need to do some checking sometimes - bits can be lost where a relationship changes based on switching from lastname-san to first name by itself, and things like that. I saw a show recently where the subs referred to the character by first name the whole time, but it was kind of a big deal when the other character started actually using her name. Otherwise, though, I tend to err on the side of natural-sounding English, although I used to prefer more literal translations or leaving in the original terms. I think a really great translation would use other word choice (more formal register, etc.) to reflect the fact that two characters have a somewhat distant relationship, which in Japanese appears partly in the honorifics, pronouns, etc., and thus avoid both random Japanese words and odd English versions. I was thinking about this reading Fullmetal Alchemist the other day - Al calls Ed "big brother" in the translation, and in that case it fits the relationship, I think. |
| I would like it to be untranslated. |
| They should be left untranslated. |
We are the United. Even in defeat we stand united. |
meideiemkar said: -san would vary from NULL honorific to "Mr/Ms etc". A good subber would be able to tell which word is suitable judging from the situation and the relationship of the characters. Isn't this what honorifics mean at the first place? Only thing shouldn't to be translated in an anime are puns involving visual representation of words ('cause I'm against editing the video to replace for example japanese characters on signs) and spoken or written parts that are not Japanese in the original (ie, an anime with "gratuitous german" should be translated with that characteristic in mind). ---- An example just come to mind... You may have watched School Rumble. The subbers left lots of japanese honorifics. Like Harima calling Sawachika (not sure about the name) "ojou". Why left it in Japanese? "Princess" would be perfect! We use this word to describe girls acting like Sawachka, at least in my native language. A good subber does not translate any honorific. meideiemkar said: To people who like it untranslated: Do you also prefer phrases like "yoroshiku onegaishimasu" and "itadakimasu" left untranslated? What about Japanese idioms? Most subbers translate them word-for-word and give a TL note while others don't even bother translating it leaving a whole string of text in Japanese. There is no actual direct translations for either one of those phrases. No subbers leave something in a string of Japanese. They either take it out completely or leave the translators note. Translators notes are the best way to go. |
myth720 said: I like it left as is (some subs just drop it). It's weird when it's mr./mrs. instead of -sensei/-san/etc. and I think -sama and the likes are important as they are implying the character's status and relationship... it can't be easily translated to english. I'm okay with translating "brother" though. (when they use the given name instead it's also ok, tho feels odd to me) ^ Language is like that, somethings can't really be translated without loosing it's original meaning. I myself like it to be left untranslated (especially for honorifics) and find it quite odd to see expressions/idoms etc. translated. I agree that translators note are the best way to go. |
YanofliesFeb 3, 2010 7:48 PM
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| When I first started to watch subbed anime..I preferred everything to be translated, because there would sometimes be stuff that is left untranslated and I would go like "wt h does that mean?"After watching subs for a while I eventually found out what they had meant and now prefer it to be left untranslated. |
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| Well i rather have they do not because i am trying to slowly switch to raw myself while i am learning more and more Japanese. The less subbed the better for me |
| ): pıdnʇs lǝǝɟ llıʍ ʎlqɐqoɹd noʎ pǝɥsıuıɟ noʎ ǝɯıʇ ǝɥʇ ʎq `sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ oʇ ǝɯıʇ ɹnoʎ ǝʞɐʇ |
meideiemkar said: Whatever, to each to his own. +1 Please and thank-you.. |
Psajdak said: When a flat chested girl hugs you, she's holding you closer to her heart. |
| Looking at the big picture, translating or omitting honorifics is better. That way, non-hardcore viewers can understand and enjoy the content without getting distracted by random -suffixes that have no meaning to them. Hardcore viewers can understand the deep character relationships or whatever from the audio, whether the subs include the honorifics or not. Another consideration is that there's only so much space for a line of subtitles, and only so much time for them to be onscreen. Using honorifics means fitting more characters onscreen at once, which might force some omission or simplification in the main content of the translations. Either that, or using ridiculously small subs or 3-liners. None of those are good solutions. On a personal level, I don't really care if they're in the subs or not. It doesn't bother me to see honorifics, and if they're not included, I can hear them from the audio just fine. I'm more concerned about the English writing in the main parts of the subtitles -- is it free of errors, flowing, natural, and appropriate to the context? I've found that groups like gg and Shin-GX that leave out honorifics generally have better writing, because omitting honorifics coincides with the goals of "liberal" subbing in creating a smoother English reading experience for viewers. The same goes for official subs, although I have seen some honorific-omitting yet still awkward subs on DVDs. I do include honorifics in the fansubs I work on, mainly because I try to strike a balance between the preferences of hardcore fans and my own ideals of how subs should read. |
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Everything that connects to MAL |
| Ah, the classic sub debate. I apologize in advance for the tl;dr content, but I don't know what else I can cut out :/ All one has to do is look at PROFESSIONAL translations to see how it should be done. Remember, the point of subtitles are to be as unobtrusive as possible while making everything perfectly understandable to the viewer. Remember, viewers range from the average person with no knowledge of Japanese, to the internet otaku who obsessively downloads anime, to others who are partially fluent in Japanese. A good translation should be understandable to all of these people. Translators notes are one way to get around this, but they should be used as sparingly as possible. So what if English can't display all the intricacies of Japanese formality? Leaving in "oniisama" vs "brother" or simply saying the name does not help anyone who doesn't understand Japanese honorifics. Remember, there are huge differences in how people call themselves in Japanese (Ore, Jibun, Watashi, Boku, Watakushi, ect.), but English translators HAVE to translate them all as "I" whether they like it or not because there are no other English equivalents. The true test of a translator is not how much random Japanese he/she can leave in, but how he/she can creatively come up with ways to get the same ideas across in English. For example, if one character is throwing "ore" and "omae" all over the place, simply make their speech ruder than other character's speech. As someone suggested earlier, maybe they say something like "Who the hell are you?!" vs "Hello there, may I help you?" That having been said, I personally don't mind when I see honorifics and people leaving in Japanese ("shinigami" vs "Death god" or "Soul Reaper"), but if certain sub groups actually want to be as professional as possible, they should translate as much as possible. For people actually wanting to learn Japanese: A high school or college level class in the subject will do you a world of good. There's only so much you can learn from television :( Also, I know I actually feel BETTER when I understand a word or nuance of culture from an anime from my OWN knowledge and listening skills, rather than someone leaving in honorifics for me or feeding it to me through a translator's note *shrugs* |
YorokoFeb 3, 2010 9:47 PM
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Yorokobu said: Well, in this case, you could consider the target audience of Fansub Groups, which might more likely be people who have more knowledge of Japanese culture (they're looking for Anime on the net, and they know what they're after/in for), unlike 'people' who might want to purchase 'Japanese Cartoons' in the land of Region 1 (hey, me too).Remember, viewers range from the average person with no knowledge of Japanese, to the internet otaku who obsessive downloads anime, to others who are partially fluent in Japanese. A good translation should be understandable to all of these people. For me, I would decide about honorifics depending on the setting of the anime, of course even if it's set in Australia or whatever, there will still be that twist of Anime flavour in it. +1 about what you said about translation notes. It doesn't really strike the heart ('hit home,' if you will) if you have to *try* to understand the meaning of a joke or pun or understand relationships, when you have to read it though a translation note, though like others have said, unfortunately not everything can be translated into English through dialogue alone (omg, Excel Saga: Vid-Notes). |
namaikiFeb 3, 2010 9:58 PM
Psajdak said: When a flat chested girl hugs you, she's holding you closer to her heart. |
| i really dun care about that kind of stuffs..but when the anime involves about their culture like what japanese do...i do care and i appreciate if they translate that.. |
namaiki said: Well, in this case, you could consider the target audience of Fansub Groups, which might more likely be people who have more knowledge of Japanese culture (they're looking for Anime on the net, and they know what they're after/in for), unlike 'people' who might want to purchase 'Japanese Cartoons' in the land of Region 1. +1 about what you said about translation notes. It doesn't really strike the heart when you try to understand the meaning of a joke or pun or understanding relationships when you have to read it though a translation note. That is very true - Fansub groups do have that target audience. However, I have tried to show some anime to my non-otaku friends and they were confused and frustrated by the crazy amounts of translators notes, honorifics, and other things they didn't understand. It's sad that such things distracted them from the actual show, so I had to switch over to dubs (which was sad) :( I do agree that once people have watched enough anime, a lot of them actually like seeing that stuff in the subs. Also, some new people to the anime scene may download it, and those people may be equally as confused. It may just be me, but I don't really consider it sacrilegious to translate even the "untranslatable" expressions like itadakimasu. Why not just say "Let's eat!" and be done with it? Of course, certain translations may not work in all situations, but I like to show my appreciation for a culture in other ways. Trying to find a good equivalent in English makes me think about the word even more - its meaning, its cultural implications, and its social commentary on how the Japanese think about thankfulness to mother nature for providing the food, ect. |
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Yorokobu said: itadakimasu "Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub." :3 or Thanks for the food. I'm sure there's much worse than 'itadakimasu,' though.. |
Psajdak said: When a flat chested girl hugs you, she's holding you closer to her heart. |
| I like it untranslated >.> It drives me so crazy when they translate it to something else.. =/ it just sounds so weird if they do. |
| I don't really care because I understand what kun, san, sana, oniichan are, so it doesn't matter if the aren't translated/ |
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Yorokobu said: That having been said, I personally don't mind when I see honorifics and people leaving in Japanese ("shinigami" vs "Death god" or "Soul Reaper"), but if certain sub groups actually want to be as professional as possible, they should translate as much as possible. No. Just no. Soul Reaper is not a fucking translation. Soul Reaper is a retarded term Viz made up for no reason when Shinigami means Death God. If somebody is going to translate it then they should use Death God. meideiemkar said: What Yorokobu said. +1 -- This "tl notes" trend has gone too far. I mean, my hand goes automatically to pause button when I notice a text at the upper part of the video, only to see that is actually something along the lines of «Tantei-san (探偵さん): It's a title given to detectives. Tantei means "detective" and "-san" is equivalent to "Mr".». Ffs! (Actual tl note from Detective Conan's 1 or 2nd season subs). What you said -1000 for ignoring my post directed at you. Next time you post you might want to respond to a post like that than ignore it just because you were wrong. Translator notes are not going too far. Get over it or just watch dubs since they cater to people like you a hell of a lot more. |
Drunk_Samurai said: No. Just no. Soul Reaper is not a fucking translation. Soul Reaper is a retarded term Viz made up for no reason when Shinigami means Death God. If somebody is going to translate it then they should use Death God. Of course Soul Reaper is not a direct translation, it's a localization. Saying death god makes absolutely no historical or literary sense to most English speakers. The localization team probably thought something along these lines: Person A: What's a shinigami? Person B: Well, it literally means 'death god'. A: What, like a demon? B: Well, it could be. Usually it's more like a person who collects dead souls. Like the Grim Reaper. A: (Immediately understands Grim Reaper reference) Ok, let's call them Soul Reapers. The reason subbers probably like to keep the word 'shinigami' rather than translate it is because the direct translation sounds ridiculous in English. At least Soul Reaper might have some sort of meaning. I mean, I hate Americanization of anime as much as the next person, but localization, if done correctly, can help people understand (and thus enjoy) an anime. Of course, actual editing of the animation is a big no-no in my book, so I cry a little tear when the "localization" team butchers up a dub of a show like One Piece. "A good subber does not translate any honorific." Wha? If, someone is called "Yamamoto-taichou," what's wrong with translating that as Captain Yamamoto? Or, if it's an office setting, just calling that person "Chief" or "Boss"? Sure, -san, -chan, and others don't need to be translated, but there are other honorifics that can be translated. Once again, it's up to the skills of the translator to find an acceptable substitute if one such exists. "Translators notes are the best way to go." I'll accept them if there's maybe one or two notes per season of the show, OR the notes are at the end of the episode. Otherwise, they distract from the actual animation. Depending on the show, this can't be helped (like in Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), but in general, it's nice to have scant translators notes. |
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| I prefer they don't translate it because it'd look much better for me. |
| I prefer it when they say -sama insted of lady and onee-chan instead of brother. |
Yorokobu said: Drunk_Samurai said: No. Just no. Soul Reaper is not a fucking translation. Soul Reaper is a retarded term Viz made up for no reason when Shinigami means Death God. If somebody is going to translate it then they should use Death God. Of course Soul Reaper is not a direct translation, it's a localization. Saying death god makes absolutely no historical or literary sense to most English speakers. The localization team probably thought something along these lines: Person A: What's a shinigami? Person B: Well, it literally means 'death god'. A: What, like a demon? B: Well, it could be. Usually it's more like a person who collects dead souls. Like the Grim Reaper. A: (Immediately understands Grim Reaper reference) Ok, let's call them Soul Reapers. The reason subbers probably like to keep the word 'shinigami' rather than translate it is because the direct translation sounds ridiculous in English. At least Soul Reaper might have some sort of meaning. I mean, I hate Americanization of anime as much as the next person, but localization, if done correctly, can help people understand (and thus enjoy) an anime. Of course, actual editing of the animation is a big no-no in my book, so I cry a little tear when the "localization" team butchers up a dub of a show like One Piece. "A good subber does not translate any honorific." Wha? If, someone is called "Yamamoto-taichou," what's wrong with translating that as Captain Yamamoto? Or, if it's an office setting, just calling that person "Chief" or "Boss"? Sure, -san, -chan, and others don't need to be translated, but there are other honorifics that can be translated. Once again, it's up to the skills of the translator to find an acceptable substitute if one such exists. "Translators notes are the best way to go." I'll accept them if there's maybe one or two notes per season of the show, OR the notes are at the end of the episode. Otherwise, they distract from the actual animation. Depending on the show, this can't be helped (like in Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), but in general, it's nice to have scant translators notes. 1) If that's true then they are just fucking stupid. They would have been better off calling them Grim Reapers. How does the direct translation sound ridiculous? If people can't understand what Death God means then they must be pretty damn stupid. Soul Reaper is a term that never should have been used. 2) Taichou means captain which is a military rank not an honorific. There is no translation for san, kun, or chan. I have seen san translated before. People still do it because they are idiots. Like Yibis. 3) Some series need at least one or two a show. Also depending if they leave attack names untranslated. I think the only reason Dattebayo stopped doing that was because they started to get lazy. What kind of shitty sub group actually puts translation notes at the end of an episode? Also that logic is ridiculous. If you're getting distracted by a translators note then that means you would also be getting distracted by subs. meideiemkar said: What exactly did I ignore? "A good subber does not translate any honorific." Your opinion. Mine: A good subber translates everything to the target language. I don't see how this specific point can be analyzed anymore. "There is no actual direct translations for either one of those phrases. No subbers leave something in a string of Japanese. They either take it out completely or leave the translators note. Translators notes are the best way to go." Firstly, they do leave whole phrases in Japanese. Mostly idioms and words like itadakimasu. TL notes are not always present but even if they do put some, it doesn't make them any more reliable. Now, about the direct translation. Nothing can be translated directly. Especially when we have to deal with a very different language (I actually speak Japanese so I know what I'm talking about). The job of the translator is to find a suitable expression in the target language. Not to write something awkward which won't make much sense without explaining it. Well. Is there anything in your posts that is answerable? Bullshit you speak Japanese. If you did you would be watching RAW's not subs. Putting translation notes or leaving some words left untranslated is not awkward. |
meideiemkar said: Really, do you believe it when you are saying that there is no translation for -san, -kun, -chan etc? There no UNIVERSAL translation. No 1:1 mapping between Japanese and English honorifics. This doesn't equal "not translatable". A subber who actually understands what is going on in the show and can handle English language in a decent way would clearly see what English honorific suits the situation, even if he or she chooses to leave the Japanese one. This is what I'm saying since page 4 but you don't seem to have any answer to prove me wrong (because you are the one insisting that my opinion is shit, not I. Au contraire, I already said that I respect people's tastes on subtitling style) You must be a troll since you ignored my other part of that post. There is no translation at all for them. A good translator would either leave them all in or take them out completely. Translating any honorfics is just stupid. |
meideiemkar said: I really don't think I'm ignoring anything. And I already said that some japanese honorifics equal null honorific in English. So, would you mind giving an example of what is a not translatable honorific? Drunk_Samurai said: Bullshit you speak Japanese. If you did you would be watching RAW's not subs. I already gave you the ones that cannot be translated. |
meideiemkar said: You mean -san, -kun, -chan you said before? -san is usually null in english, or Mr/Mrs/Ms in some cases (talking to older people, or in a formal situation - school, work...). -kun's the same but implies the speaker is superior. With a right choice of words, the result will be semantically the same. -chan will mean using a nickname and softer language. Going further, -chi/-chama will equal childish language and -sama/-dono overly honorific language. Is not really that hard if you have the context in mind. And I don't know what has me watching subbed anime with me speaking Japanese. I'm just at JLPT4 level. You sure know that at this level, colloquial anime language is not really expected to be known. I watch jdramas with japanese subtitles, if you really think that this is important. Like I said. They don't have actual translations. It doesn't matter if one means more childish or honorific. They do not have actual translations. |
| I prefer the honorifics being left in. Otherwise I don't feel the authenticy of the anime. |
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| Regretfully I can't find a source on this, but wasn't "Soul Reaper" Tite Kubo's invented term, not Viz's? Also, I imagine it's been discussed here before, but this video series covers a lot of the translation and subbing issues that've come up in this thread. |
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Everything that connects to MAL |
Zalis said: Regretfully I can't find a source on this, but wasn't "Soul Reaper" Tite Kubo's invented term, not Viz's? Also, I imagine it's been discussed here before, but this video series covers a lot of the translation and subbing issues that've come up in this thread. A bunch of people tried to claim that bullshit yet nobody has been able to produce any evidence he made it up when I requested it. |
| I really don't mind but I would prefer they left the honorifics in. |
| untranslated |
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| I was just thinking about this topic when i noticed this thread. I like it untranslated. It also annoys me when they switch the first and last name to the english way of first name first, last name last. However, i think, as long as they get the context right, a sub is higher quality if they translate it. Having said this, it is highly annoying picking up on something without knowing the language when the translator so obviously was too literal. |
Zalis said: Regretfully I can't find a source on this, but wasn't "Soul Reaper" Tite Kubo's invented term, not Viz's? Also, I imagine it's been discussed here before, but this video series covers a lot of the translation and subbing issues that've come up in this thread. I should have posted about the video but I hadn't watched it yet. That guy is a joke and nobody should care what an idiot like him says. |
Drunk_Samurai said: He knows Japanese and works as a professional translator. To me, that says he knows a lot more about translating Japanese than me and most everybody else around here. I'm not seeing the idiocy here. While I don't agree with everything he said, he was spot on about how fansubs are often incomprehensible to the average viewer, have ridiculously flashy and unreadable karaoke, and drown viewers in needless translation notes, among other things.I should have posted about the video but I hadn't watched it yet. That guy is a joke and nobody should care what an idiot like him says. |
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Everything that connects to MAL |
| This isn't really with subs, but it made me think of this. Higurashi's manga, they have Rika saying 'sir' after EVERYTHING. I don't know if they did that during translation or what, but it annoys the shit out of me. -_- I prefer that they don't translate it, and leave it out if not needed. Like what someone said earlier, samurai or traditional Japanese settings, keep them in. It definitly helps set the tone. I like it when they keep in the honorifics, though. I'm just saying that I don't care if they're there or not, but don't translate them. |
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Zalis said: Drunk_Samurai said: He knows Japanese and works as a professional translator. To me, that says he knows a lot more about translating Japanese than me and most everybody else around here. I'm not seeing the idiocy here. While I don't agree with everything he said, he was spot on about how fansubs are often incomprehensible to the average viewer, have ridiculously flashy and unreadable karaoke, and drown viewers in needless translation notes, among other things.I should have posted about the video but I hadn't watched it yet. That guy is a joke and nobody should care what an idiot like him says. I don't give a fuck what he works as. The only reason he made the videos is because he knows fansubs are better. I especially loled at the sign thing. |
Drunk_Samurai said: Clearly there's no reasoning with you, the master of ad hominem.I don't give a fuck what he works as. |
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Everything that connects to MAL |
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