ANIME ONLY: Fate/Zero or UBW&HF First?
| I'm convinced the best watch order for anime onlies is FSN 2006 -> UBW -> Fate/Zero. Especially because if they're never going to read the VN, Saber is just too important of a character for them to miss out on. And besides that, I think FSN 2006 is a lot easier to enjoy without knowing how much the animation and production values are improved upon in future iterations, so you care less about how ugly a particular scene looks and just appreciate the story for what it is, which despite all the hate that FSN 2006 gets, it's really not bad at all. Certainly not any worse than the way ufotable has handled season 2 of UBW if you ask me. At least FSN 2006's animation and pacing got better as it went along, while UBW has gotten worse. |
kingcity20 said: Oh for the love of -_- nvm gotta love MAL |
MiniSiets said: I'm convinced the best watch order for anime onlies is FSN 2006 -> UBW -> Fate/Zero. Especially because if they're never going to read the VN, Saber is just too important of a character for them to miss out on. And besides that, I think FSN 2006 is a lot easier to enjoy without knowing how much the animation and production values are improved upon in future iterations, so you care less about how ugly a particular scene looks and just appreciate the story for what it is, which despite all the hate that FSN 2006 gets, it's really not bad at all. Certainly not any worse than the way ufotable has handled season 2 of UBW if you ask me. At least FSN 2006's animation and pacing got better as it went along, while UBW has gotten worse. I dropped the DEENime around EP2 or EP3 because the overall package was just boring and not enjoyable. And I RARELY drop an anime. |
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Grey-Zone said: So after you pass the point where you can get the "superhero" bad ending: What are the "big reveals", aside from |
Grey-Zone said: MiniSiets said: I'm convinced the best watch order for anime onlies is FSN 2006 -> UBW -> Fate/Zero. Especially because if they're never going to read the VN, Saber is just too important of a character for them to miss out on. And besides that, I think FSN 2006 is a lot easier to enjoy without knowing how much the animation and production values are improved upon in future iterations, so you care less about how ugly a particular scene looks and just appreciate the story for what it is, which despite all the hate that FSN 2006 gets, it's really not bad at all. Certainly not any worse than the way ufotable has handled season 2 of UBW if you ask me. At least FSN 2006's animation and pacing got better as it went along, while UBW has gotten worse. I dropped the DEENime around EP2 or EP3 because the overall package was just boring and not enjoyable. And I RARELY drop an anime. Well, I recall the first 3 episodes of Fate/Zero being even more drab than FSN 2006 honestly, so I don't see it as much of an alternative. |
kingcity20 said: Oh for the love of -_- nvm gotta love MAL |
astroprogs said: Grey-Zone said: So after you pass the point where you can get the "superhero" bad ending: What are the "big reveals", aside from About that... With that said, I still think my "kind" of mindset is rather rare, so I myself would still rather tend to advice going with F/sn first (escpacially if someone plans to read the VN), but it really comes down to how the HF movie(s) are designed in the end. |
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Grey-Zone said: astroprogs said: About that... With that said, I still think my "kind" of mindset is rather rare, so I myself would still rather tend to advice going with F/sn first (escpacially if someone plans to read the VN), but it really comes down to how the HF movie(s) are designed in the end. I still believe that however the way HF is adapted, it can never be viewed after F/Z without ruining a lot of what made it great in the first place. |
astroprogsJun 4, 2015 6:22 PM
GrumpyWolf said: CookingPriest said: Except that it can't be treated as separate work. It is 1/3rd of the whole. That doesnt make it good storytelling. Like I said no adaptation for 1/3rd and the other one is just a movie. You make it sound like the other two don't exist at all, which isn't true. Your position is the equivalent of saying the second Lord of the Rings movie doesn't make sense on it's own and is therefore bad storytelling while pretending the other two films and the books don't exist at all. astroprogs said: Grey-Zone said: As I said, it all comes down to how Heaven's Feel is going to be handled. If it's written in a way that only the plot twists carry the movie(s), which is very unlikely, then it would mean that you really "should" watch F/Z after both F/sn:UBW and F/sn:HF. However what I think is more likely that it's made in a way were F/Z and F/sn don't interfere with each other too much, i.e. there is no order to be maintained, with the most likely exception of F/sn:UBW being required to watch before F/sn:HF, while F/Z can be watched at anytime. Well as I said, it comes down to how HF is being handled in the future. Honestly, I'd argue that HF CANNOT be adapted with F/Z in mind. It'd be a huge recap with some very few new info thrown in and some action scenes that last for less than a minuts until the finale. This simply because that's not how F/SN was structured. You're NOT supposed to know the backstory first. Horseshit. Well, it wouldn't be a recap, at least. Aside from the 1st episode, F/Z largely avoids recapping much of F/SN. During the ending, they toss around terms like you already know what they are without giving any actual explanation. It's able to keep a fairly brisk pace through the last few episodes precisely because they're not burdened by having to lay down all that exposition. As for the spoilers, there's still plenty to enjoy, even with having seen F/Z first. Critically, F/Z doesn't spoil the most badass moment ever, by which I am of course referring to My point is, there's plenty that Zero doesn't spoil in HF. |
| F/Z doesn't really "add" anything new aside from some details about a few characters though so "finding the connections" only works that way, while the other way around it's just "a nice cameo". "What made it great" is subjective. Just because it made it "great" for you and, let's say, even 95% of the remaining fanbase, does not mean the same applies to the remaining 5%. The As for Zouken: You'd usually already suspect him early in HF, I mean we already have Kirei as a precedent at that point and he really does not look like a "caring" grandfather considering how broken both Shinji and Sakura are. That he ends up being an evil guy is no "huge revelation". It's neither a "twist" nor a "reveal" it is at most a "confirmation". I mean even though my enjoyment is supposedly "extremely reduced" due to being "spoilt" by F/Z, I still liked HF slightly more than UBW (and a lot more than Fate) because it turned everything around on its head (see: ufo trailer imaginery of flipped and broken "chessboard"). |
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fst said: Horseshit. Well, it wouldn't be a recap, at least. Aside from the 1st episode, F/Z largely avoids recapping much of F/SN. During the ending, they toss around terms like you already know what they are without giving any actual explanation. It's able to keep a fairly brisk pace through the last few episodes precisely because they're not burdened by having to lay down all that exposition. As for the spoilers, there's still plenty to enjoy, even with having seen F/Z first. Critically, F/Z doesn't spoil the most badass moment ever, by which I am of course referring to My point is, there's plenty that Zero doesn't spoil in HF. You're talking about spoiling events, I'm talking about spoiling twists. Yeah, i know that F/Z doesn't spoil the badass scenes, that wasn't really my point. What's left for F/Z watchers to enjoy in HF is the expansion on what they already know and the action scenes, which is good and all, but wasn't really the full package for the VN readers and non-F/Z watchers. Grey-Zone said: F/Z doesn't really "add" anything new aside from some details about a few characters though so "finding the connections" only works that way, while the other way around it's just "a nice cameo". "What made it great" is subjective. Just because it made it "great" for you and, let's say, even 95% of the remaining fanbase, does not mean the same applies to the remaining 5%. The As for Zouken: You'd usually already suspect him early in HF, I mean we already have Kirei as a precedent at that point and he really does not look like a "caring" grandfather considering how broken both Shinji and Sakura are. That he ends up being an evil guy is no "huge revelation". It's neither a "twist" nor a "reveal" it is at most a "confirmation". I mean even though my enjoyment is supposedly "extremely reduced" due to being "spoilt" by F/Z, I still liked HF slightly more than UBW (and a lot more than Fate) because it turned everything around on its head (see: ufo trailer imaginery of flipped and broken "chessboard"). Again, F/Z spoils things that weren't supposed to be spoiled. You realize that you're arguing against both story's structure, right? "What made it great" isn't subjective. People can enjoy watching a movie backwards, and they'll be doing it wrong, because that's not how it was supposed to be viewed, and for a good story, they ARE missing out. By watching F/Z first, you're literally watching it backwards. Not even talking about the change in atmosphere and the VERY different goal of the stories. I don't even know what we're arguing about here. F/Z was written with F/SN's knowledge in mind. Both Urobuchi and Nasu say to read the VN first. I think those guys know what they're talking about. Zouken is a reveal in HF because it's literally the first time you see or even now about his name, even after two complete loops. I'm not arguing against the enjoyment of HF with the spoilers in mind, I'm arguing for the full package, and ,that, HF with F/Z in mind, isn't it. |
| I didn't want to argue which is the "correct" path, because that should be obvious (VN -> F/Z). I was discussing what happens if you happen to take a "different" path (F/Z -> VN). The truth of the matter is it's impossible to really come to a conclusion here, because we would need to have a person that witnessed both without bias, which would only be possible if we lived in some sci-fi world where memories can be properly "blocked off". Even if you say that on a 2nd VN read you have the same perspective as a F/Z only, it's not really the same, because by then you already read HF itself, which essentially makes it a re-read by nature, so there WILL be bias. But you are right as well that I will never know how it would have been if I had read the VN first. It's literally impossible to know whose view about watching/reading it in "wrong" order is more correct, unless we have someone who did both, however as I just explained, that is not possible, so we cannot really come to a conclusion here. So let's just say for now we agree that there is no point in extending this discussion and instead continue recommending going with the VN first and see how HF is going to be like later, ok? |
Grey-ZoneJun 4, 2015 7:43 PM
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astroprogs said: "What made it great" isn't subjective. People can enjoy watching a movie backwards, and they'll be doing it wrong, because that's not how it was supposed to be viewed, and for a good story, they ARE missing out. By watching F/Z first, you're literally watching it backwards. Not even talking about the change in atmosphere and the VERY different goal of the stories. Actually what made it great is subjective, unless you are trying to say the twists are the only thing that made FSN great. If that were true Whether he watched it first or second, he wouldn't have liked it, since twists don't really matter to greyzone. Watching a movie backwards vs watching a movie in an incorrect order are completely different things. Watching a movie backwards would imply pushing rewind and trying to make sense of it without getting any of the actual story, while watching it in an incorrect order would be like watching Kara No Kyoukai. You can watch it in the correct order, and still get the exact same storyt. The only thing that changes is the order that you watched it in. The story is still the same, the message of the story is still the same, and if you look at the whole picture even the theme remains the same. What exactly are you missing out? Whether someone watches it in order or out of order you still get the exact same thing. Unless you are implying that watching it out of order all of a sudden deletes some scenes or messages. Twists are not what make FSN great, twists are just twists, some people like them and some people don't care for them. Twists are only there for people who enjoy twists, there are still plenty of great things for people who could care less about twists. |
KamiCityJun 4, 2015 7:39 PM
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astroprogs said: "What made it great" isn't subjective. No, KamiCity said: Actually what made it great is subjective Because you don't get to dictate to people what they should enjoy most in a series. |
| "What made it great" =/= "What made it great to an indiviual" = "What an individual enjoyed most about it" "What made it great" would rather refer to technical aspects that can be "objectively" measured, but individuals always have personal preferences, so it cannot be measured objectively the weighting varies between individuals. Aside from the technical aspects you would have to re-evaluate it again for every single individual to be able to correctly assess what really made it great to all readers, which is kind of impossible, unless you make a survey that all VN readers in existence, or at the very least a realistic representative number, would take part in. |
Grey-ZoneJun 4, 2015 7:51 PM
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| VN -> F/Z is the correct path. However, just because it's the correct path doesn't mean it's the right path for everyone. |
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ZeroDragon said: VN -> F/Z is the correct path. However, just because it's the correct path doesn't mean it's the right path for everyone.  |
Grey-Zone said: So let's just say for now we agree that there is no point in extending this discussion and instead continue recommending going with the VN first and see how HF is going to be like later, ok? Alright then, sure. KamiCity said: Actually what made it great is subjective, unless you are trying to say the twists are the only thing that made FSN great. If that were true Whether he watched it first or second, he wouldn't have liked it, since twists don't really matter to greyzone. Watching a movie backwards vs watching a movie in an incorrect order are completely different things. Watching a movie backwards would imply pushing rewind and trying to make sense of it without getting any of the actual story, while watching it in an incorrect order would be like watching Kara No Kyoukai. You can watch it in the correct order, and still get the exact same storyt. The only thing that changes is the order that you watched it in. The story is still the same, the message of the story is still the same, and if you look at the whole picture even the theme remains the same. What exactly are you missing out? Whether someone watches it in order or out of order you still get the exact same thing. Unless you are implying that watching it out of order all of a sudden deletes some scenes or messages. Twists are not what make FSN great, twists are just twists, some people like them and some people don't care for them. Twists are only there for people who enjoy twists, there are still plenty of great things for people who could care less about twists. I never said that twists are the only thing that made FSN great. Read my previous posts, please. I'm saying that twists are one big reason for it. Maybe "backwards" was the wrong word, but out of order isn't all that different. Stories follow a structure for a lot of reasons, like the impact of certain twists and reveals. Those impacts depend on the events to be in a certain order. Even, seemingly, out of order stories are following their own order for the impact of certain scenes to be conveyed as the writer wants. He's the one dictating the order, not the viewer. And yeah, you'll make sense of the story if you watch it out of order, but that's about it. Twists is a big part of F/SN. If some people don't care for them, then that's alright. Doesn't make it the norm or the rule, though. Quite the opposite in fact. Or are you arguing that most people don't care for twists? |
astroprogsJun 4, 2015 8:30 PM
fst said: astroprogs said: "What made it great" isn't subjective. No, KamiCity said: Actually what made it great is subjective Because you don't get to dictate to people what they should enjoy most in a series. You're right, people enjoy different things. However, you find a lot of people regretting having watched F/Z first, while ALL people who keep claiming that watching F/Z first is the correct order have no clue what HF is even about, and the people whose opinion actually have weight to it (who watched F/Z AND read the VN) agree that experiencing HF first is the correct thing to do. While that doesn't make it the absolutely correct way, it makes it the closest to being the right thing to do to fully enjoy the series. |
| I regret nothing. |
astroprogs said: No I was arguing that "what makes it great" is subjective. Twists is a big part of F/SN. If some people don't care for them, then that's alright. Doesn't make it the norm or the rule, though. Quite the opposite in fact. Or are you arguing that most people don't care for twists? People like twists, others don't, it all depends on the viewer making it subjective. By stating that it's not subjective, that would mean this statement would have to be true 100% of the time. I never said that twists are the only thing that made FSN great. I'm saying that twists are one big reason for it. Which is not true, twists work for some but never for all. Even without the twists, the story is still great, even without the twists people can still enjoy the story. Same reason some people don't care for spoilers, or read reviews before watching it. And yeah, you'll make sense of the story if you watch it out of order, but that's about it You can still enjoy it, so it's not about it. Besides enjoyment and making sense of the story, what else is there?Authors give the "preferred" order, that doesn't make it mandatory nor does it mean people can't still enjoy it regardless. We all know the preferred order for Fate is FSN first and F/Z second. People can still enjoy the story the other way around though. At least as far as the VN goes, we still don't know enough about heaven's feel nor do we have a proper Fate route to say that as AO. Also people who have watched F/Z first and have not experienced HF have no justification for their opinions, so they can't make any claims. (Even though they do) |
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fst said: I regret nothing. I have no regrets, this is my only path. |
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WrongPriest said: fst said: I regret nothing. I have no regrets, this is the only path. ftfy |
KamiCity said: astroprogs said: No I was arguing that "what makes it great" is subjective. Twists is a big part of F/SN. If some people don't care for them, then that's alright. Doesn't make it the norm or the rule, though. Quite the opposite in fact. Or are you arguing that most people don't care for twists? People like twists, others don't, it all depends on the viewer making it subjective. By stating that it's not subjective, that would mean this statement would have to be true 100% of the time. I never said that twists are the only thing that made FSN great. I'm saying that twists are one big reason for it. Which is not true, twists work for some but never for all. Even without the twists, the story is still great, even without the twists people can still enjoy the story. Same reason some people don't care for spoilers, or read reviews before watching it. And yeah, you'll make sense of the story if you watch it out of order, but that's about it You can still enjoy it, so it's not about it. Besides enjoyment and making sense of the story, what else is there?Authors give the "preferred" order, that doesn't make it mandatory nor does it mean people can't still enjoy it regardless. We all know the preferred order for Fate is FSN first and F/Z second. People can still enjoy the story the other way around though. At least as far as the VN goes, we still don't know enough about heaven's feel nor do we have a proper Fate route to say that as AO. Also people who have watched F/Z first and have not experienced HF have no justification for their opinions, so they can't make any claims. (Even though they do) I agree with the first part, it's subjective. Again, i never said that missing the twists ruin the story. I said that it subtracts from the overall enjoyment. Twists ARE a part of the story. If someone doesn't enjoy them, regardless if it was because they were spoiled or they just don't care, then they're missing a part of the package. People can and will enjoy what they get, doesn't make it the full experience. fst said: I regret nothing. I said "a lot of people", not "all people". |
astroprogs said: fst said: No, Because you don't get to dictate to people what they should enjoy most in a series. You're right, people enjoy different things. However, you find a lot of people regretting having watched F/Z first, while ALL people who keep claiming that watching F/Z first is the correct order have no clue what HF is even about, and the people whose opinion actually have weight to it (who watched F/Z AND read the VN) agree that experiencing HF first is the correct thing to do. While that doesn't make it the absolutely correct way, it makes it the closest to being the right thing to do to fully enjoy the series. As someone who falls in this category,let me just say that if i hadn't watched F/Z i wouldn't have given two shits about UBW or HF or any of the routes. F/Z impressed me a lot and thats the only reason i decided to watch the fate series anime like UBW.Without F/Z i doubt i would have been interested in the fate series at all.So personally i don't care what F/Z spoils for me in the HF route. |
fathertime said: I watched F/Z first and UBW makes a lot more sense to me since the holy grail war was much better explained in F/Z(and no i'm not interested in reading the VN.I'll judge the anime UBW on its own merits rather than the source material its based on).So an as anime only watcher who hasnt read the VN,i say Fate/zero first ,then UBW is the way to go Except that UBW and Zero have exact same explanation, with glaring difference that Zero expects you to already know more. It is very safe to say that unless you follow the correct order you will have absolutely no clue what second half of Zero si even about nor find anything in HF interesting because you know all of it already. |
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| lol the post that I should not have seen is talking about what people can or cannot think again. "Fai the mindreader". Well there is the fact that he is wrong of course, but how could one dare to claim that CookingPriest is incorrect? Meanwhile Rin still "kicks" Shirou in EP13. It's still true because CookingPriest said it once and he can never be incorrect, even if it contradicts reality! |
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| I'm sure you understood everything that happened at the end of Zero because you are A Very Intelligent Person unlike the rest of us plebs who actually need an explanation on how/why it happened the way it did, then. |
Insertanamehere said: I'm sure you understood everything that happened at the end of Zero because you are A Very Intelligent Person unlike the rest of us plebs who actually need an explanation on how/why it happened the way it did, then. Did you watch F/Z first? |
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Grey-Zone said: Insertanamehere said: I'm sure you understood everything that happened at the end of Zero because you are A Very Intelligent Person unlike the rest of us plebs who actually need an explanation on how/why it happened the way it did, then. Did you watch F/Z first? No, but please use F/Z only knowledge and explain the ending to me. |
Insertanamehere said: Grey-Zone said: Did you watch F/Z first? No, but please use F/Z only knowledge and explain the ending to me. 1. "The ending" does not equal "the whole 2nd half" 2. Gil having been materialized can be easily deduced because unlike him Saber seems to be gone, the grail is appearantly gone as well, but Gil is still there without his clothes, because his clothes were NOT materialized. There were not any reasonable different explanations aside from that, considering that Gil was not in panic to disappear anytime soon. 3. Fai made the absurd claim that watching in wrong order means not understanding the (whole) ending of Fate/Zero. "Wrong order" here means that I DO see F/sn afterward, i.e. if I had any open questions about F/Z, I get them answered in F/sn. "Understanding the things" is actually completely unrelated to watching order, because either way you see all and therefore have the same amount of knowledge in both orders. You could say for me F/Z had the same effect that DEENime had on many others, i.e. motivation to read the VN. DEENime failed to motivate me (I dropped it at EP3 or so). |
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Kolios said: GrumpyWolf said: Yet the topic says ANIME ONLY. My bad then. Of course, only the Ln readers can have an opinion. Not reading it makes me an ignorant I guess. I really dont see why people cant separate vn from anime. Just because the anime isnt great doesnt mean the vn is bad. Its like criticizing the anime is the same as doing it to the vn. Or maybe the anime did a poor job at showing it to the viewers? Maybe Im the only one that thinks that. There are anime-onlies who understood characters from watching the anime except for understanding Shirou until episode 20/21 (and yes this is bad for the anime). It's okay, maybe you missed it because you were dazzled on the visuals and couldn't focus on anything else. And Im sure there are equally anime-onlies who didnt understand most of it or just plain didnt care cause of how bad it was presented. Too bad you cant take the criticism. fathertime said: As someone who falls in this category,let me just say that if i hadn't watched F/Z i wouldn't have given two shits about UBW or HF or any of the routes. F/Z impressed me a lot and thats the only reason i decided to watch the fate series anime like UBW.Without F/Z i doubt i would have been interested in the fate series at all.So personally i don't care what F/Z spoils for me in the HF route. Same with me. I knew about FSN way before FZero aired. I had no interest in it. I also only watched FZero after it aired cause I knew the story was connected to FSN. Eventually I watched FZero cause a friend kept nagging me. I enjoyed it (not as much as when I rewatched it later). Its really hard to see what was spoiled and I also really dont care at this point. |
ok000Jun 5, 2015 6:09 AM
fathertime said: As someone who falls in this category,let me just say that if i hadn't watched F/Z i wouldn't have given two shits about UBW or HF or any of the routes. F/Z impressed me a lot and thats the only reason i decided to watch the fate series anime like UBW.Without F/Z i doubt i would have been interested in the fate series at all.So personally i don't care what F/Z spoils for me in the HF route. I can start any franchise from whichever point i like, and most of the time I'll find that the beginning isn't even half as interesting as some of the events in other parts of said franchise. Being more interesting doesn't make F/Z the correct starting point. And how can you say that spoiling HF doesn't bother you when you don't really know anything about it? Shouldn't you read/watch it first before making such claim? |
GrumpyWolf said: Its really hard to see what was spoiled It's very obviously not going to seem like spoilers if you watch Fate/Zero first lol. |
InsertanamehereJun 5, 2015 7:15 AM
Kolios said: There are anime-onlies who understood characters from watching the anime except for understanding Shirou until episode 20/21 (and yes this is bad for the anime).[...] That was actually intended by Nasu. He said we wanted to make it less "in your face" and revealing things bit by bit. It's only bad if you watch it weekly and stops being an issue once it can be marathoned, since then people will still be able to remember things from EP1, unlike now. |
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astroprogs said: fathertime said: As someone who falls in this category,let me just say that if i hadn't watched F/Z i wouldn't have given two shits about UBW or HF or any of the routes. F/Z impressed me a lot and thats the only reason i decided to watch the fate series anime like UBW.Without F/Z i doubt i would have been interested in the fate series at all.So personally i don't care what F/Z spoils for me in the HF route. I can start any franchise from whichever point i like, and most of the time I'll find that the beginning isn't even half as interesting as some of the events in other parts of said franchise. Being more interesting doesn't make F/Z the correct starting point. And how can you say that spoiling HF doesn't bother you when you don't really know anything about it? Shouldn't you read/watch it first before making such claim? Cause anime-onlies dont care about the vn. People just want to watch anime and enjoy the story (+ everything else). For vn readers its a spoiler fest but for anime-onlies its just a story and they might just see HF as a sequel. |
| I don't think Zero being viewed first is advisable. Zero really wasn't written with surprise in mind - there's little build up for mystery or anything of that sort. There aren't any significant plot twists I can recall - things just happen. I feel it just assumes you know everything. On the other hand FSN does have plot twists and mystery, and Zero spoils that heavily. It is simply better to watch the FSN adaptations first, and then Zero. |
GrumpyWolf said: astroprogs said: I can start any franchise from whichever point i like, and most of the time I'll find that the beginning isn't even half as interesting as some of the events in other parts of said franchise. Being more interesting doesn't make F/Z the correct starting point. And how can you say that spoiling HF doesn't bother you when you don't really know anything about it? Shouldn't you read/watch it first before making such claim? Cause anime-onlies dont care about the vn. People just want to watch anime and enjoy the story (+ everything else). For vn readers its a spoiler fest but for anime-onlies its just a story and they might just see HF as a sequel. What does being an anime-only have to do with anything. The stories are the same as their VN/LN counterparts, which means that what applies there applies here. If someone wants to enjoy everything, then source material chronological order is the way to go. That's how both the stories were written, adaptation order is as irrelevant as it gets. I'd understand your position more if HF was still in the air with no indication that it'll be even made, but it's been already announced. And again, if you don't know anything about HF, you can't give a recommended order. |
astroprogs said: What does being an anime-only have to do with anything. The stories are the same as their VN/LN counterparts, which means that what applies there applies here. If someone wants to enjoy everything, then source material chronological order is the way to go. That's how both the stories were written, adaptation order is as irrelevant as it gets. I'd understand your position more if HF was still in the air with no indication that it'll be even made, but it's been already announced. And again, if you don't know anything about HF, you can't give a recommended order. Well since FZero aired first, anime-onlies watched it first. Or you think people at the time shouldnt watch a show because you say so? Also, at the time was there an official release for HF route adaptation? And Im sure there are lot of people that casually watch anime that is airing and dont care if they are adaptations or not. Like I said people just want to watch anime. |
GrumpyWolf said: Well since FZero aired first, anime-onlies watched it first. Or you think people at the time shouldnt watch a show because you say so? Also, at the time was there an official release for HF route adaptation? And Im sure there are lot of people that casually watch anime that is airing and dont care if they are adaptations or not. Like I said people just want to watch anime. I have nothing against the people who watched F/Z at the time, as it was pretty much the only good Fate adaptation then, not to mention that there was nothing indicating that they might go and adapt F/SN after. However, I have an issue with F/Z watchers who have no idea what they're talking about claiming that they know it all, and steering newcomers away from the correct order recommended by both authors of F/Z and F/SN. People are free to watch whatever they want. As i said, i can start any franchise from any point i like, doesn't somehow make it the correct choice. |
| So to summarize: F/Z does definitly have spoilers for F/sn:HF, just for that it should be recommended to watch F/Z after F/sn:HF (and obviously F/sn:HF after F/sn:UBW). That much is certain. What is not certain is what kind of effect it has to do it "wrong", because that seems to vary, however it seems for the majority it generally has a negative impact on F/sn:HF to have seen F/Z first, which brings us back to recommending to watch F/sn:UBW -> F/sn:HF -> F/Z. Obviously if possible, the VN should be read first, if possible, but that's up to the people. |
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GrumpyWolf said: Kolios said: There are anime-onlies who understood characters from watching the anime except for understanding Shirou until episode 20/21 (and yes this is bad for the anime). It's okay, maybe you missed it because you were dazzled on the visuals and couldn't focus on anything else. And Im sure there are equally anime-onlies who didnt understand most of it or just plain didnt care cause of how bad it was presented. Too bad you cant take the criticism. fathertime said: As someone who falls in this category,let me just say that if i hadn't watched F/Z i wouldn't have given two shits about UBW or HF or any of the routes. F/Z impressed me a lot and thats the only reason i decided to watch the fate series anime like UBW.Without F/Z i doubt i would have been interested in the fate series at all.So personally i don't care what F/Z spoils for me in the HF route. Same with me. I knew about FSN way before FZero aired. I had no interest in it. I also only watched FZero after it aired cause I knew the story was connected to FSN. Eventually I watched FZero cause a friend kept nagging me. I enjoyed it (not as much as when I rewatched it later). Its really hard to see what was spoiled and I also really dont care at this point. How was it badly presented? And if you say it's badly presented because you didn't get it, that's circular reasoning. And many people didn't get Evangelion's message but you wouldn't (or certainly shouldn't) say it was badly presented. I can take criticism... that actually has good reasoning behind it. But that's lacking in your post. |
CyberNTJun 5, 2015 8:26 AM
Grey-Zone said: So to summarize: F/Z does definitly have spoilers for F/sn:HF, just for that it should be recommended to watch F/Z after F/sn:HF (and obviously F/sn:HF after F/sn:UBW). That much is certain. What is not certain is what kind of effect it has to do it "wrong", because that seems to vary, however it seems for the majority it generally has a negative impact on F/sn:HF to have seen F/Z first, which brings us back to recommending to watch F/sn:UBW -> F/sn:HF -> F/Z. Obviously if possible, the VN should be read first, if possible, but that's up to the people. That seems to be the most logical way to look at it, yeah. |
MiniSiets said: I'm convinced the best watch order for anime onlies is FSN 2006 -> UBW -> Fate/Zero. Especially because if they're never going to read the VN, Saber is just too important of a character for them to miss out on. And besides that, I think FSN 2006 is a lot easier to enjoy without knowing how much the animation and production values are improved upon in future iterations, so you care less about how ugly a particular scene looks and just appreciate the story for what it is, which despite all the hate that FSN 2006 gets, it's really not bad at all. Certainly not any worse than the way ufotable has handled season 2 of UBW if you ask me. At least FSN 2006's animation and pacing got better as it went along, while UBW has gotten worse. This :/ 2006 first people :| all arguments are now invalid. |
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Grey-Zone said: Kolios said: There are anime-onlies who understood characters from watching the anime except for understanding Shirou until episode 20/21 (and yes this is bad for the anime).[...] That was actually intended by Nasu. He said we wanted to make it less "in your face" and revealing things bit by bit. It's only bad if you watch it weekly and stops being an issue once it can be marathoned, since then people will still be able to remember things from EP1, unlike now. Perhaps but by giving Shirou so little monologues that go into his ideal in first cour, there's also the lack of buildup. I like a lot of the "show rather than tell" aspects the show did but when it comes to Shirou it should mainly have been "tell rather than show". The facial expressions of Shirou that indicated how distorted he is helps but when it comes to things that shouldn't be left to interpretation, it should make be "in your face" approach. |
CyberNTJun 5, 2015 8:33 AM
Kolios said: How was it badly presented? And if you say it's badly presented because you didn't get it, that's circular reasoning. And many people didn't get Evangelion's message but you wouldn't (or certainly shouldn't) say it was badly presented. I can take criticism... that actually has good reasoning behind it. But that's lacking in your post. Sure you can. I just said that are many people who didnt get it. Thats a colection of people that I know and others that write in these forums. Yea cause evangelions message is so clear and its ambiguity isnt one of the animes flaws. astroprogs said: I have nothing against the people who watched F/Z at the time, as it was pretty much the only good Fate adaptation then, not to mention that there was nothing indicating that they might go and adapt F/SN after. However, I have an issue with F/Z watchers who have no idea what they're talking about claiming that they know it all, and steering newcomers away from the correct order recommended by both authors of F/Z and F/SN. People are free to watch whatever they want. As i said, i can start any franchise from any point i like, doesn't somehow make it the correct choice. The correct choice is what the viewers make it to be. If they want to watch FZero first then they should. I support that. If people that dont know anything about Fate come on to MAL and see FZero as the prequel of course they will watch it first. I watched it first and it hasnt influenced my enjoyment of FSN. Viewers have options and if they want to experience the story chronologically they should do so. If not, follow another order. FZero is one of my favorites animes and maybe if I watched as a prequel to a show that I didnt like it wouldnt be so. |
ok000Jun 5, 2015 9:31 AM
Kolios said: Grey-Zone said: That was actually intended by Nasu. He said we wanted to make it less "in your face" and revealing things bit by bit. It's only bad if you watch it weekly and stops being an issue once it can be marathoned, since then people will still be able to remember things from EP1, unlike now. Perhaps but by giving Shirou so little monologues that go into his ideal in first cour, there's also the lack of buildup. I like a lot of the "show rather than tell" aspects the show did but when it comes to Shirou it should mainly have been "tell rather than show". The facial expressions of Shirou that indicated how distorted he is helps but when it comes to things that shouldn't be left to interpretation, it should make be "in your face" approach. Making it less in your face =/= not showing it at all I blame Miura and the rest of the staff for being completely unable to be subtle nor "to show not tell". As it stands ufoubw is ridden by meaningless needless tirades of talking, with all the important talks and inner thoughts missing. So much for show not tell. |
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GrumpyWolf said: Sure you can. I just said that are many people who didnt get it. Thats a colection of people that I know and others that write in these forums. Yea cause evangelions message is so clear and its ambiguity isnt one of the animes flaws. There is no or very little ambiguity in FSN though, the message is prety damn clear. Sure you can say many people didn't get it, but as Kolios said, that's circular reasoning and a fallacy at that. As in its failed logic. You can't blame a show because some, and a pretty small percentage at that, didn't understand it. It's the viewers job to know how to analyze, even if at a close to superficial level. I'll give you an example in literature: The novel Lord of the Flies, on a superficial level is nothing more than a story about kids shipwrecked on an island that lose it and start killing eachother. With analysis though, the story is full of symbolism and hidden messages that require you to look further than the superficial. "Reading between the lines," there is a reason for that saying. If a reader doesn't see all the symbolism, messages, ect, is the text at fault? It's not since there is already people who read through it and analyzed it. Same with Shirou and FSN, if you "read between the lines," or in this case "the screens" you realize their is a lot more to it. It's not the show at fault if a few viewers have a difficult time understanding it. You can't use "a collection of people" as an example, because "a collection of people," is vague and ambiguous. Who are these people? What percentage of the people viewing are they? From what i've seen, it's a relatively small percentage compared to the percentage of people that actually did understand it. So you can't really use outliers to make a case, this is a basic rule in statistics. The correct choice is what the viewers make it to be. If they want to watch FZero first then they should. I support that. If people that dont know anything about Fate come on to MAL and see FZero as the prequel of course they will watch it first. I watched it first and it hasnt influenced my enjoyment of FSN. Viewers have options and if they want to experience the story chronologically they should do so. If not, follow another order. FZero is one of my favorites animes and maybe if I watched as a prequel to a show that I didnt like it wouldnt be so. This is wrong, the correct choice is what the author makes it out to be. Haruhi and Kara No Kyoukai are written and intended to be seen in a certain order, sure people can watch them chronologically and still get enjoyment out of it but that doesn't make it the correct order. Nasu and Urobuchi both said, FSN VN comes first and then F/Z. Also this, "FZero is one of my favorites animes and maybe if I watched as a prequel to a show that I didnt like it wouldnt be so." is counterfactual. You can't make this claim because it goes against the fact that you watched F/Z first. Just like you say maybe you wouldn't like F/Z if you watched it before FSN, the possibility that you would have enjoyed F/Z even more still exists. Lastly, If you haven't read the VN, you don't have all the facts to make judgement yet. HF isn't out yet, and sure for the people who watched F/Z first because it was adapted first watching it in that order is fine. We still can't make the claim that, for new viewers, watching zero first would be the best choice. We just don't have enough information about HF. People who haven't read the VN, have even less facts than those who have. |
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GrumpyWolf said: The correct choice is what the viewers make it to be. If they want to watch FZero first then they should. I support that. Please, go ahead and explain why watching F/Z first would be the correct thing to do in respect to the narrative of the story. What does F/Z's knowledge add to HF? Which HF scenes get reinforced by such knowledge, and to what degree? GrumpyWolf said: If people that dont know anything about Fate come on to MAL and see FZero as the prequel of course they will watch it first. Yes, and they'll be making an ignorant decision. GrumpyWolf said: I watched it first and it hasnt influenced my enjoyment of FSN. No, you watched 1/3rd of F/SN. The third that has the least connection to F/Z at that. GrumpyWolf said: Viewers have options and if they want to experience the story chronologically they should do so. If not, follow another order. FZero is one of my favorites animes and maybe if I watched as a prequel to a show that I didnt like it wouldnt be so. What show you don't like? ufoUBW is the first faithful adaptation to F/SN, and you've already watched it after F/Z. Is it so hard to stop spouting ignorant remarks regarding something you don't have the slightest clue about? Why should your opinion have any weight about the order of watching a series you've literally seen 2/5th of its entirety? This is getting ridiculous, so I'll say it for the last time: You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop acting like you do. |
astroprogsJun 5, 2015 11:03 AM
| One thing people should know after watching fate zero is that don't expect so much from kirei kotomine in ubw as being badass in zero. You will feel like vomiting and i can guarantee that. |
clintonmadara said: One thing people should know after watching fate zero is that don't expect so much from kirei kotomine in ubw as being badass in zero. You will feel like vomiting and i can guarantee that. Wait for HF...oh man just wait for HF |
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Nasu and Urobuchi both said, FSN VN comes first and then F/Z. To be perfectly fair that was intended for the F/SN VN and for the F/Z LN. This is ufotable's production and they animated F/Z first.I doubt they were thinking people were just gonna buy their stuff and then not watch any of it until/and if/ they adapted the rest. |
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