Gov said: bluntRespect said: Why don't you try then? The result might just surprise you..;) Praland said: Please do it. I want to know.. Alright. I will make the thread. Kiritsugu has almost 4k favorites compared to shirou so MAL agrees that Kiritsugu is better. |
supracseduch said: Seriously, people think "Kiritsugu is so immature because he wants to let a dangerous miracle-granting device to end human suffering and bring world peace, despite not having any idea how to do it." Look, a miracle is a miracle and the grail was supposed to grant such wishes. If you wish for a bag of potato chips from a genie, you shouldn't be required to know the details of how a bag of potato chips is manufactured in the assembly line. He acknowledges that it would take a miracle in order to fulfill his ideals, and guess what, there's a grail that can supposedly grant just that. As far as he's concerned, this is the perfect opportunity. And no, he did NOT know that the grail was corrupted. Some people seem to forget this. It has nothing to do with him acknowledging his ideal would take a miracle. That actually makes it worse for him. He wants to force his own selfish reality on everyone in the world. |
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CookingPriest said: GARBrotato said: Somewhere like Beast's Lair you mean? Beasts Lair will have 0 votes and would derail into shit in five seconds. Also full of secondaries. |
nocorras said: supracseduch said: Seriously, people think "Kiritsugu is so immature because he wants to let a dangerous miracle-granting device to end human suffering and bring world peace, despite not having any idea how to do it." Look, a miracle is a miracle and the grail was supposed to grant such wishes. If you wish for a bag of potato chips from a genie, you shouldn't be required to know the details of how a bag of potato chips is manufactured in the assembly line. He acknowledges that it would take a miracle in order to fulfill his ideals, and guess what, there's a grail that can supposedly grant just that. As far as he's concerned, this is the perfect opportunity. And no, he did NOT know that the grail was corrupted. Some people seem to forget this. It has nothing to do with him acknowledging his ideal would take a miracle. That actually makes it worse for him. He wants to force his own selfish reality on everyone in the world. Wanting a world without suffering is not really a selfish desire. |
supracseduch said: Seriously, people think "Kiritsugu is so immature because he wants to let a dangerous miracle-granting device to end human suffering and bring world peace, despite not having any idea how to do it." Look, a miracle is a miracle and the grail was supposed to grant such wishes. If you wish for a bag of potato chips from a genie, you shouldn't be required to know the details of how a bag of potato chips is manufactured in the assembly line. He acknowledges that it would take a miracle in order to fulfill his ideals, and guess what, there's a grail that can supposedly grant just that. As far as he's concerned, this is the perfect opportunity. And no, he did NOT know that the grail was corrupted. Some people seem to forget this. Actually him seeking for the Holy Grail is only a small part of the issue with his ideal. I'll just quote CarenPriest/Merci because she already said everything I wanted to say. CarenPriest said: Kiritsugu accomplished many things and saved many people, but that was at the cost of his own 'self'. It would not be inaccurate to say that he sacrificed his own life for th sake of everyone else's lives. Many times, he's been referenced as a little kid in an adult man's body (even using the pronoun 'boku'), and that's exactly what he is. Let's face it, Kiritsugu's lifestyle is self-destructive, and while it may be dark, in no way can it be considered 'idealistically mature'. Rather than being mature, it's more like he's given up. Like a kid who couldn't handle the harsh reality, and so dedicated his whole life to changing it. In no way can coldly murdering all perceived threats, just in case those people ends up killing others, doing it over and over hoping that someday all the bad guys will disappear, even though you know that's impossible - be a mature way to live. He's not living his life, he's not enjoying his life, he's just trying to be a machine even though it hurts, and he'll break down in tears the first chance he gets like the miserable man he is. Seriously, who wants to live like that? supracseduch said: Wanting a world without suffering is not really a selfish desire. No, it isn't; it's a noble desire. Everyone wants that. Problem is the way he chose to try and obtain that ideal. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
CookingPriest said: Didn't seem like that to me.Also full of secondaries. If anything most of them are more hardcore TM fans than any of some of us poor noobs here. |
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supracseduch said: nocorras said: It has nothing to do with him acknowledging his ideal would take a miracle. That actually makes it worse for him. He wants to force his own selfish reality on everyone in the world. Wanting a world without suffering is not really a selfish desire. Wanting to force your own ideal reality on EVERYONE is selfish. A lot of people have their own ideal realities but not everyone wants to force that on every single living person. |
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Journey_95 said: so what? you don't need to be a typical hero to be a good and complex character This poll isn't about whether he's a good character or not though. |
nocorras said: supracseduch said: Wanting a world without suffering is not really a selfish desire. Wanting to force your own ideal reality on EVERYONE is selfish. A lot of people have their own ideal realities but not everyone wants to force that on every single living person. He does not wish to enforce any reality, apart from his vague idea of "world without suffering". Indeed, if he had any specific realities in mind, the grail would have fulfilled it. But since he didn't, the grail cannot grant this vague desire of his. And I stand by what I said: that wanting suffering to permanently end is not selfish. Especially if he uses himself (and a few Masters) as a sacrifice for it. |
supracseduch said: nocorras said: Wanting to force your own ideal reality on EVERYONE is selfish. A lot of people have their own ideal realities but not everyone wants to force that on every single living person. He does not wish to enforce any reality, apart from his vague idea of "world without suffering". Indeed, if he had any specific realities in mind, the grail would have fulfilled it. But since he didn't, the grail cannot grant this vague desire of his. And I stand by what I said: that wanting suffering to permanently end is not selfish. Especially if he uses himself (and a few Masters) as a sacrifice for it. I never said wanting no suffering is selfish. Seeking a device to enact that reality on everyone in the entire world is incredibly selfish, sorry. Being a noble ideal doesn't mean it's not selfish to force it on everyone. Saying he has no idea how to do it doesn't help his case imo. "hey grail force this reality on everyone in the world when I myself don't know how this reality should look" It reeks of desperation and selfishness. |
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nocorras said: I never said wanting no suffering is selfish. Seeking a device to enact that reality on everyone in the entire world is incredibly selfish, sorry. Being a noble ideal doesn't mean it's not selfish to force it on everyone. Saying he has no idea how to do it doesn't help his case imo. "hey grail force this reality on everyone in the world when I myself don't know how this reality should look" It reeks of desperation and selfishness. Alright, we agree that desiring no suffering is not really "selfish", in the ordinary sense. Next, we look at whether "wanting to enforce a vague, ideal reality" is selfish. I am not entirely sure of what we should call "selfish", since we can argue that all of our actions have some sort of self-centred motivation. Example: Helping others in order to gain people's trust, or to gain a good reputation, or to expect them to reciprocate some day, or even to just feel good about ourselves. Whether it be helping a few people at a time or the world at large, we ourselves are the focal point of the actions we take. Regardless of whether Kiritsugu is doing a "selfish" deed or not, he was nevertheless doing a noble deed - which is helping others. That doesn't make him immature. Anyways, I haven't submitted my vote yet on this poll since I don't know Shirou that well yet. |
| He's immature compared to Shirou because Shirou realizes an ideal is an ideal while he's 17. Then we have the 30 year old man that can't face the truth that reality is throwing at him so he seeks a miracle. Already said being noble doesn't mean it's not a selfish wish of his to invoke his reality on to everyone. We'll just have to disagree on all of this. |
nocorrasApr 8, 2015 10:32 AM
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nocorras said: He's immature compared to Shirou because Shirou realizes an ideal is an ideal while he's 17. Then we have the 30 year old man that can't face the truth that reality is throwing at him so he seeks a miracle. And Kiritsugu is doing that without even trying to comprehend what his ideal or the way he implemented it mean. He is a hypocrite chasing after an impossible ideal, breaking it in the process. Which is why the VERY OBVIOUS revelations that he is forced to witness pretty much broke him. Shirou at 17 is already very self-aware of what ideal means and is not willing to rush into it before he figures out what it means FOR him. |
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nocorras said: He's immature compared to Shirou because Shirou realizes an ideal is an ideal while he's 17. Then we have the 30 year old man that can't face the truth that reality is throwing at him so he seeks a miracle. Already said being noble doesn't mean it's not a selfish wish of his to invoke his reality on to everyone. We'll just have to disagree on all of this. Except that the holy grail is actually part of reality -- it exists. So indeed, he's facing reality head-on. He uses whatever tools he has to help everyone. Also, I already mentioned that "selfishness" is not immaturity, since it's a pretty much an unavoidable aspect of our lives. Everything we do, including sacrificing ourselves for others, can be interpreted to be self-centred. |
| Him seeking the grail is subverting reality and trying to rewrite the rules to fit his desire. The immaturity is from his not being able to accept that an ideal is just an ideal. And like Fai said Kerry never stopped to think about what the ideal entailed and what it means while Shirou does. Kerry just chases a miracle to fulfill his life. Shirou follows a beautiful ideal and lives his life by it to fulfill his life. Like I said we'll just have to disagree. I always relate this monologue (that is butchered in the show) to Shirou vs Kerry's mentality http://i.imgur.com/rmsDnak.png |
nocorrasApr 8, 2015 10:47 AM
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GARBrotato said: tsudecimo said: Shirou is already miles better than Kiritsugu though.Kiritsgu. Any comparison between the two, only make Shirou even worse than he already is. That's an objectively wrong statement, and a quite disgusting one at that. |
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nocorras said: Shirou follows a beautiful ideal and dies by it to fulfill his life. But let's just forget how many times the other characters have to remind him how fucked up he is in only caring about his ideal and how many times he's about to throw his life away for it, without caring about his loved ones, which is also selfish. |
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Lollo36 said: nocorras said: Shirou follows a beautiful ideal and dies by it to fulfill his life. But let's just forget how many times the other characters have to remind him how fucked up he is in only caring about his ideal and how many times he's about to throw his life away for it, without caring about his loved ones, which is also selfish. Except he tells Rin he knows his outlook is messed up, but wanting to help people can't be wrong. It's not like he's some doofus that doesn't understand that fact. I don't see where anything is confirmed about anyone dying post any route. And I'm specifically talking about UBW Shirou since we're in the UBW forum. |
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nocorras said: Lollo36 said: But let's just forget how many times the other characters have to remind him how fucked up he is in only caring about his ideal and how many times he's about to throw his life away for it, without caring about his loved ones, which is also selfish. Except he tells Rin he knows his outlook is messed up, but wanting to help people can't be wrong. It's not like he's some doofus that doesn't understand that fact. I don't see where anything is confirmed about anyone dying post any route. And I'm specifically talking about UBW Shirou since we're in the UBW forum. Fate Shirou might but UBW SHirou clearly has a healthy outlook towards living by ideal. |
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tsudecimo said: Bro get better taste, you lose 2 cool points like this.GARBrotato said: Shirou is already miles better than Kiritsugu though. That's an objectively wrong statement, and a quite disgusting one at that. |
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Journey_95 said: tsudecimo said: There is just nothing that Shirou is better at than Kerry so far. Granted, that I only watched half the story of UBW, you and the other priests description of him, is also not better than Kerry, though I'm sure, that most of it is exaggeration and fanboyism and a case of overintrepreting, and the anime Shirou wouldn't be like it. I have read the complete VN and Shirou really isn't better than Kerry the hardcore VN fans will tell you differently and get really defensive though And you're like 1 in 50 VN readers. Go make this poll on a TM forum and see how much worse it would be for Kerry. Kerry = textbook manchild whose flaws get overlooked due to being a badass edge lord. |
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| Kerry, of course. In UBW Shirou remains idealistically childish all the time. |
Journey_95 said: The only one that over-hypes Shirou is Fai. Not to say he doesn't make some valid points though.tsudecimo said: There is just nothing that Shirou is better at than Kerry so far. Granted, that I only watched half the story of UBW, you and the other priests description of him, is also not better than Kerry, though I'm sure, that most of it is exaggeration and fanboyism and a case of overintrepreting, and the anime Shirou wouldn't be like it. I have read the complete VN and Shirou really isn't better than Kerry the hardcore VN fans will tell you differently and get really defensive though We'll agree to disagree I guess. |
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GARBrotato said: tsudecimo said: Bro get better taste, you lose 2 cool points like this.That's an objectively wrong statement, and a quite disgusting one at that. There is just nothing that Shirou is better at than Kerry so far. He doesn't have better abilities, his abilities aren't good by themselves, trace on is very lame, and so is the borrowed dual swords. Accel spells, and Kerry's guns, are not only 'cooler', but are used more creatively. Shirou's ideal, is so generic, it hurts. It's too naive and idealistic. Kerry's ideal were interesting, not just because it's uncommon to see them in a protagonist or a main character, but also because his twisted sense of justice was compelling, how he kept on suffering, and doing bad things for the sake of greater good. Being pragmatic is a lot more interesting, than a pure hero, with an extra dose of idealism. Shirou didn't develop so far, but I doubt whatever development he might have will, be anything noteworthy an early guess I don't really use fights, to judge characters, but ehh, Shirou unsurprisingly falls flat here as well. Granted, that I only watched half the story of UBW, you and the other priests description of him, is also not better than Kerry, though I'm sure, that most of it is exaggeration and fanboyism and a case of overintrepreting, and the anime Shirou wouldn't be like it. nocorras said: And you're like 1 in 50 VN readers. Go make this poll on a TM forum and see how much worse it would be for Kerry. An ad poplumn. That's credible. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: And you're like 1 in 50 VN readers. Go make this poll on a TM forum and see how much worse it would be for Kerry. your point? Of course on such a forum it would be worse for Kerry On an anime forum or reddit Kerry would win no doubt even after UBW has aired And reddit is full of non VN reader's who've only seen half of UBW. I don't know what you're point is really. And Shirou is winning on an anime forum right now. |
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tsudecimo said: He does. I'd be entering some heavy spoiler territory so I'll wait till UBW ends before going into more detail. Dual swords aren't burrowed. He doesn't have better abilities, his abilities aren't good by themselves, trace on is very lame, and so is the borrowed dual swords. Accel spells, and Kerry's guns, are not only 'cooler', but are used more creatively. tsudecimo said: They have the same ideal <.<Shirou's ideal, is so generic, it hurts. It's too naive and idealistic. Kerry's ideal were interesting, not just because it's uncommon to see them in a protagonist or a main character, but also because his twisted sense of justice was compelling, how he kept on suffering, and doing bad things for the sake of greater good. Being pragmatic is a lot more interesting, than a pure hero, with an extra dose of idealism. Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal. tsudecimo said: Not exactly.Shirou didn't develop so far, but I doubt whatever development he might have will, be anything noteworthy an early guess tsudecimo said: Again you don't have enough knowledge to say that.I don't really use fights, to judge characters, but ehh, Shirou unsurprisingly falls flat here as well. tsudecimo said: As said earlier only 1-2 people over-hype Shirou.Granted, that I only watched half the story of UBW, you and the other priests description of him, is also not better than Kerry, though I'm sure, that most of it is exaggeration and fanboyism and a case of overintrepreting, and the anime Shirou wouldn't be like it. |
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| I'm not bashing him because of his ideals/way of doing things. I'm bashing him because people out right ignore aspects of his character because he's badass. There will never be an unbiased poll because it's going to exist somewhere where the community is divided. And Kerry has had a better anime representation than Shirou. |
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CookingPriest said: nocorras said: Except he tells Rin he knows his outlook is messed up, but wanting to help people can't be wrong. It's not like he's some doofus that doesn't understand that fact. I don't see where anything is confirmed about anyone dying post any route. And I'm specifically talking about UBW Shirou since we're in the UBW forum. Fate Shirou might but UBW SHirou clearly has a healthy outlook towards living by ideal. |
Lollo36Apr 8, 2015 11:42 AM
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Lollo36 said: And that's only if I were to accept that he survives the final battle thanks to his healthy outlook towards its ideal, and not because of bullshit powerups, deus sex machina and asspulls. You know if you have played the vn thats perfectly explained. |
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Lollo36 said: Uhmm Avalon isn't an asspull since it is foreshadowed to hell and was revealed already in Fate route. The rest is explained and/or foreshadowed. There's only one asspull in UBW and that'sCookingPriest said: Fate Shirou might but UBW SHirou clearly has a healthy outlook towards living by ideal. At the end of the route, or at least, after facing off against Archer. During the route, Rin has to show him what it means to have fun, and he still feels guilty about it. When Ilya dies, he jumps down screaming and survives only because of a contrived setup that involves Lancer having to destroy an entire building to get rid of a corpse and Gilgamesh disliking ashes. And that's only if I were to accept that he survives the final battle thanks to his healthy outlook towards its ideal, and not because of bullshit powerups, deus sex machina and asspulls. It's like saying that Kerry has a healthy ideal in FZ because he adopts Shirou and changes his lifestyle in the ending. |
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GARBrotato said: They have the same ideal <.< Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal. How are they the same? Shirou >> Hero of justice, never do no wrong Kerry >> Twisted hero of justice, does anything for the sake of his justice In the bridge, F/Z's kerry would have sacrificed Taiga, Shirou didn't. Only thing Shirou is willing to do for the sake of it, is when it's extremes on his own self, and not others (i.e willing to make Caster cut of his hands, being reckless, etc) And tbh, if the only way Shirou fans/priests or w/e, can defend his character is by vapidly bashing Kerry by the same bullshit one liner assumptions on why people like him, then that shows how biased they are. They are literally two examples of this happening in this page alone. So I can't be blamed, when I take everything they say about Shirou with a grain of salt. |
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tsudecimo said: GARBrotato said: They have the same ideal <.< Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal. How are they the same? Shirou >> Hero of justice, never do no wrong Kerry >> Twisted hero of justice, does anything for the sake of his justice In the bridge, F/Z's kerry would have sacrificed Taiga, Shirou didn't. Only thing Shirou is willing to do for the sake of it, is when it's extremes on his own self, and not others (i.e willing to make Caster cut of his hands, being reckless, etc) And tbh, if the only way Shirou fans/priests or w/e, can defend his character is by vapidly bashing Kerry by the same bullshit one liner assumptions on why people like him, then that shows how biased they are. They are literally two examples of this happening in this page alone. So I can't be blamed, when I take everything they say about Shirou with a grain of salt. I've defended Shirou by showing how much more mature he is about his ideal but keep ignoring it. I even posted a monologue where Shirou basically craps on Kerry's way "a miracle is too big for humans" There have been plenty of arguments for Shirou and I haven't seen one from Journey95 for Kerry. He says there is more to Kerry but never brings it up. |
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tsudecimo said: GARBrotato said: They have the same ideal <.< Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal. How are they the same? Shirou borrow his ideals from Kerry. It's the same one. |
PralandApr 8, 2015 11:49 AM
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| Kirei. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| HF Shirou is the only sane Emiya. |
| Gil ideal > Kirei ideal |
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Praland said: I think they should join their ideals to create the ultimate yuetsu ideal.Gil ideal > Kirei ideal |
SapewlothApr 8, 2015 11:56 AM
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
GangstaPriest said: Praland said: I they should join their ideals to create the ultimate yuetsu ideal.Gil ideal > Kirei ideal That would be beautiful |
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nocorras said: l I've defended Shirou by showing how much more mature he is about his ideal but keep ignoring it. I even posted a monologue where Shirou basically craps on Kerry's way "a miracle is too big for humans" Am I supposed to keep track of your posts or something? unless you posted it here, that doesn't change my statement. |
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iravuseiba said: HF Shirou is the only sane Emiya. Yeah It's sane to do what he did. /s I wouldn't label any Shirou as sane considering their distortions. Good luck living with yourself after doing what HF Shirou did/went through. |
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tsudecimo said: Both want an ideal world where no one suffers. That's their ideal, and it only makes sense that they both have the same one since Shirou took it from Kiritsugu.How are they the same? Shirou >> Hero of justice, never do no wrong Kerry >> Twisted hero of justice, does anything for the sake of his justice In the bridge, F/Z's kerry would have sacrificed Taiga, Shirou didn't. Only thing Shirou is willing to do for the sake of it, is when it's extremes on his own self, and not others (i.e willing to make Caster cut of his hands, being reckless, etc) Kerry's methods aren't his ideal; it's just how he goes about trying to achieve said ideal. And the only reason his method is 'twisted' is because of what happened to his island. tsudecimo said: I haven't done that though, for example. Pretty sure there are a lot others too.And tbh, if the only way Shirou fans/priests or w/e, can defend his character is by vapidly bashing Kerry by the same bullshit one liner assumptions on why people like him, then that shows how biased they are. They are literally two examples of this happening in this page alone. So I can't be blamed, when I take everything they say about Shirou with a grain of salt. And I don't mean to defend the people who bash Kerry, but from what I've seen online so far quite a bit of the love and hate Kerry and Shirou get respectively a lot of it is dumb buzzwords that miss the point of both characters and the franchise they are from, so I can see where they are coming from. Admittedly though most of these people never got to see all 3 versions of Shirou properly but eh. |
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tsudecimo said: nocorras said: l I've defended Shirou by showing how much more mature he is about his ideal but keep ignoring it. I even posted a monologue where Shirou basically craps on Kerry's way "a miracle is too big for humans" Am I supposed to keep track of your posts or something? unless you posted it here, that doesn't change my statement. http://i.imgur.com/rmsDnak.png |
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