| The Kyoto arc in Rurouni Kenshin? It's long (vols. 8-18 iirc) but it's pretty exciting all the way through, has some amazing fights and Shishio+the Juppongatana are some of the coolest villains in battle shonen. |
RedRoseFring said: I don't want to put you on the spot, but could you explain why? I know the anime would obviously have a different feel from the manga, but can you talk about specific elements like characters, plot, action, etc? Well, most importantly the anime cuts out some subplots and characters. Particularly one very important one that is essential for the conclusion of Golden Age and, since this character heavily foreshadows the eclipse, all of that is taken out as well. It also skips the entire first arc, save for elements of the opening chapter. Still, essential elements like the relationship of the three MC's is still faithfully done and it's still a very solid take on the story despite everything, which imo speaks for the strength of the core story. As far as action, one particularly noteworthy sequence is cut and the manga is obviously much, much more violent and just generally graphic. Which, imo, is a good thing considering the subject matter. Some people get turned off by all of that, though. And, while I suppose I can understand that, I don't really agree. I hope that gives you some idea of what I am talking about. If the anime interested you in any way what so ever, I definitely recommend the manga. If you want more details, since I don't want to spoil anyone here, comment on my profile. edit: I'm only talking about the TV series, btw. I've not seen the movies yet, so I can't speak for them. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Pupa. Nothing comes close to that perfection. |
| I used to tell people Berserk golden age was the best arc in manga history but that was before vinland saga. Vinland saga (specially the first arc) is easily the best in terms of storytelling/action/characters (basically everything). i really find it hard how many of you people still haven't read that masterpiece yet. To me the best five arcs are: 1- Vinland saga first arc. 2- Berserk Golden age. 3- HxH Chimera ant. 4- SnK Female titan. 5- JoJo Battle tendency. Honorable mentions: Death note (L arc). Claymore (Teresa of the Faint Smile). Magi Magnostadt arc. (manga). some of these manga/anime drop in quality later on and there is others better as a whole but as far arcs go i think these are the best... my opinion ofc. |
| I should probably read Vinland Saga, maybe after the manga I'm currently reading. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3Spectre said: I should probably read Vinland Saga, maybe after the manga I'm currently reading. Give me a PM with your thoughts after you start reading :) |
annie_leonheart said: insan3Spectre said: I should probably read Vinland Saga, maybe after the manga I'm currently reading. Give me a PM with your thoughts after you start reading :) Alright, but I still like a while in Tsubasa. Not sure how long it'll be. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
annie_leonheart said: 4- SnK Female titan. I thought everything that happened after this arc were so much better. The anime did drag out this arc, even though for good (?) reasons. |
| It seems like no one ever talks about Lost Children....I think nidhoeggr is the only user I can think of that, if I remember correctly, preferred it over Golden Age. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| dno what berserk arc it was but how can you beat |
 |
| All I can remember from the Lost Children arc is the full frontal assault by the elf children and how awkward it was |
Kaimon said: All I can remember from the Lost Children arc is the full frontal assault by the elf children and how awkward it was I'm not even sure what you are talking about, unless you are talking about the "playing war" sequence. Which is honestly one of my favorite scenes in the series. Disturbing. I'd give my left arm to see that arc animated. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3Spectre said: Kaimon said: All I can remember from the Lost Children arc is the full frontal assault by the elf children and how awkward it was I'm not even sure what you are talking about, unless you are talking about the "playing war" sequence. Which is honestly one of my favorite scenes in the series That might be it. I may need to re-read since I had downloaded some meh scans of it when I was catching up and a few chapters were out of order for whatever reason |
annie_leonheart said: I used to tell people Berserk golden age was the best arc in manga history but that was before vinland saga. Vinland saga (specially the first arc) is easily the best in terms of storytelling/action/characters (basically everything). i really find it hard how many of you people still haven't read that masterpiece yet. Funnily enough, I think Farmland Saga may be my favorite part of it so far; watching Thorfinn's gradual transformation was wonderful. |
insan3Spectre said: It seems like no one ever talks about Lost Children....I think nidhoeggr is the only user I can think of that, if I remember correctly, preferred it over Golden Age. I talked about it It was good but not as complex as CA imo, buf more than thr golden age, but nt sure, the more I read it the more I like it. |
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judals said: insan3Spectre said: It seems like no one ever talks about Lost Children....I think nidhoeggr is the only user I can think of that, if I remember correctly, preferred it over Golden Age. I talked about it It was good but not as complex as CA imo, buf more than thr golden age, but nt sure, the more I read it the more I like it. Yeah, you did. I forgot, I guess. One thing that always stood out for me was Guts' portrayal in that arc, I remember describing him in a discussion thread as "scary as any demon" and I think that was true. Actually, at times Gon in CA reminds me of him. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
I actually think the reason I enjoyed Lost Children more than any other arc in Berserk is because of how much it captured everything that is good about the series. From the adventure aspect, to the immensely entertaining badass fight sequences, to the awesome designs, to the incredible character development with emotions behind all the decisions and even the incredibly brutal dark world of the series as a whole, added with of course Puck. Edit: Plus it did it all with borderline perfect pacing and intrigue. |
KetenJun 26, 2014 1:33 AM
| Has this actually derailed into a Berserk discussion? Fantastic. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
Sapewloth said: Has this actually derailed into a Berserk discussion? Fantastic. I guess I really should have said my thoughts on the Chimera Ant Arc shouldn't I? Lmao, sorry. I thought the arc was a deconstruction of a typical battle shounen arc. It had some pacing issues here and there especially near the beginning where it took a good 10 episodes or so to really get going, but the way they made these characters who are pretty typical in battle shounens, show serious development and made them all very grey in morality as opposed to the usual. Oh look, Frieza is evil with no redeeming factors whatsoever, better send the perfect pure guy to defeat him. I thought Meruem was a very good villain because he was not even a villain. They treated them like characters, and used strategy instead of mindless fighting with remarkable animation for the most part. There are plenty of arcs I consider to be better, the pacing issue is the main reason Chimera Ant Arc isn't as good as Yorknew to me. Despite that, I am sure others would enjoy certain arcs more than it as well and their points would likely be justified. Also I want to point out I don't think HxH as a whole is deconstruction, just the chimera ant arc. Not that it makes the series any worse or better. |
KetenJun 26, 2014 2:14 AM
| See, the pacing works both ways though. Yorknew may be faster paced, and that's great for it as it worked, but it also isn't near as developed as Chimera Ant is. That may be because Togashi figured on using the Troupe and Kurapika storyline as a long term plot line and Meruem and the Chimera Ants for the most part are introduced and their stories finished in the same arc. But, the fact is that the characters and themes of CA are more developed and, personally, that makes it the better arc in my eyes. I also don't really have a problem with the pacing in general, except for maybe the parts where Knuckle first displayed his ability and Killua's dart game battle was something that didn't interest me. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| I wasn't even being sarcastic lol. But yeah, I think I had the same problems with the CA arc, in addition to the overall lack of consistency in quality from episode to episode in the last twenty-ish episodes, which is also why I think I still prefer Yorknew (but then again I might be biased, cause Kurapika is like my favorite character). I did appreciate the fact that it's an ambitious arc with great development for all the characters involved though, and while there were few episodes between 115 and 135 that stood out for me, those which actually did were nothing short of spectacular and among the best I've been given to see in any anime. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
insan3Spectre said: See, the pacing works both ways though. Yorknew may be faster paced, and that's great for it as it worked, but it also isn't near as developed as Chimera Ant is. That may be because Togashi figured on using the Troupe and Kurapika storyline as a long term plot line and Meruem and the Chimera Ants for the most part are introduced and their stories finished in the same arc. But, the fact is that the characters and themes of CA are more developed and, personally, that makes it the better arc in my eyes. I also don't really have a problem with the pacing in general, except for maybe the parts where Knuckle first displayed his ability and Killua's dart game battle was something that didn't interest me. I thought that in terms of themes and character development, Chimera Ant Arc blows Yorknew out of the water. The problem I guess is that those moments of character development were built up for a while throughout the arc. As far as I could tell, for every episode with legitimate character development, it followed about 10-20 episodes of build up. Not that build up is bad, I am just more a fan of using build up sparingly. I know some complain about the narration of the invasion, and while sometimes it was unneeded, the fact that it was covering every little thing to the slightest of detail, did indeed require the narration as it gave insights into what the characters were thinking at said time. It is very difficult to convey what a character is feeling if the scene only lasts 2 seconds. Was Meruem one of the best characters in HxH? Yes, I still like Gon a little more.. maybe because I think the chemistry between him and Killua is remarkable and it had time to build the friendship only to have Gon slowly deteriorate and Killua slowly open his heart more and realize that Gon is becoming exactly what Killua was at the start of the series. I can honestly say that the only reason I like Yorknew more is because it had better pacing, that is IT. Even if Chimera Ant Arc didn't have terrible pacing, I do think it was flawed here and there. When I began watching it, I constantly heard myself saying, "Alright, lets get to the fun stuff." But was often met with bonding time with Kite and his group whom disappeared shortly after their introduction thus I felt it was moderately pointless. I remember the guy with polar bear hair, but don't remember the rest or even the name of the polar bear hair guy, despite the fact we spent 4 episodes or so traveling with them. Now that is all very little things and only make it below Yorknew for me by an incredibly low margin. I loved the Chimera Ant Arc and feel it proves just how well a battle shounen can develop characters if they actually try to do it. Actual development as well, not Pseudo-Development like "Oh we saw his backstory therefore development." or "Oh after these several years hes learned more, therefore he is developed." Actual development, going through some sort of event or learning about something that changed the character as a person and was shown to the viewer. |
KetenJun 26, 2014 2:44 AM
| I guess that's fair. I still completely disagree with the "terrible pacing" argument, though. As I maintain that the slow pacing was necessary for the story it was telling, this isn't a thriller like Yorknew. It needed to be slow, if it didn't have the slow build up I can't imagine things paying off like they did by the end of the arc. No comment on Kite's group.... |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3Spectre said: I guess that's fair. I still completely disagree with the "terrible pacing" argument, though. As I maintain that the slow pacing was necessary for the story it was telling, this isn't a thriller like Yorknew. It needed to be slow, if it didn't have the slow build up I can't imagine things paying off like they did by the end of the arc. No comment on Kite's group.... Sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling the pacing terrible, I just meant that there were some issues here and there. I also agree that a slower pacing makes sense for it as opposed to the thriller Yorknew Arc. Also now that I think about it, One of the factors that made it so I liked Yorknew more could be based off my love of Thrillers in general. In that sense, I concede this arc being as good as Yorknew, it's just personal taste and some pacing issues that urk me just a tad made me put Yorknew above it. They are both incredible arcs though, and some of my favorites in Arcs of anime in general. |
Dangerr said: annie_leonheart said: I used to tell people Berserk golden age was the best arc in manga history but that was before vinland saga. Vinland saga (specially the first arc) is easily the best in terms of storytelling/action/characters (basically everything). i really find it hard how many of you people still haven't read that masterpiece yet. Funnily enough, I think Farmland Saga may be my favorite part of it so far; watching Thorfinn's gradual transformation was wonderful. It's was amazing indeed, bold to say the least... A desire for revenge turning slowly into a desire for redemption was really heartwarming. The protagonist really started to grow on me after that... Specially after he says "I have no enemies, no enemies at all" made my eyes tear. |
IshtaRinJun 26, 2014 2:59 AM
| Thread Cleaned I have... no idea what any of you are talking about. One day I'll watch.. |
| The build-up moments in this arc were just as good as the end-moments, and not just that, they kept culminating, making the end result even more awesome, so it was entertaining in itself and improving the quality of the arc all the same, I never had any problems with the pacing because it never felt slow, since they did a good job at showing so many things happening in such little time. So the arc overall felt like a very long, high quality, product consistently delivering, at least up to 125 where I stopped, so I couldn't ask for more. (being longer, actually). |
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judals said: So the arc overall felt like a very long, high quality, product consistently delivering, at least up to 125 where I stopped, so I couldn't ask for more. (being longer, actually). Why the fuck haven't you watched it already? |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3Spectre said: judals said: So the arc overall felt like a very long, high quality, product consistently delivering, at least up to 125 where I stopped, so I couldn't ask for more. (being longer, actually). Why the fuck haven't you watched it already? I had finals and stopped, and now too lazy, haven't decided what I want to start with: This, Shinsekai Yori remaining 15 episodes or Berserk Millennium arc, all are too interesting to delay for the other ones. |
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| You shouldn't quit now. There are some animes coming this year that might not suck. Kiseijuu, Fate stay night. As for manga you can try 7seeds(great survival themed josei) and Psyren heavily inspired in HxH, Bleach and Gantz (some say the manga is disappointing, others good-»great). |
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| [quote=judals] insan3Spectre said: I had finals and stopped, and now too lazy, haven't decided what I want to start with: This, Shinsekai Yori remaining 15 episodes or Berserk Millennium arc, all are too interesting to delay for the other ones. That's for you to decide, I guess. It seems obvious to me that going with seeing the ending of an arc you obviously really like would be the way to go, but it's up to you. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
annie_leonheart said: Dangerr said: Funnily enough, I think Farmland Saga may be my favorite part of it so far; watching Thorfinn's gradual transformation was wonderful. It's was amazing indeed, bold to say the least... A desire for revenge turning slowly into a desire for redemption was really heartwarming. The protagonist really started to grow on me after that... Specially after he says "I have no enemies, no enemies at all" made my eyes tear. Not bold. Since it was literally the point of the whole manga, for it to reach that pivotal moment, and character development. Some people didn't like that arc, because they didn't get to see Thorfin in action, but they simply didn't get the point of the story, Thorfin's father words in the first arc and why it's called Vinaland Saga |
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insan3Spectre said: RedRoseFring said: I don't want to put you on the spot, but could you explain why? I know the anime would obviously have a different feel from the manga, but can you talk about specific elements like characters, plot, action, etc? Well, most importantly the anime cuts out some subplots and characters. Particularly one very important one that is essential for the conclusion of Golden Age and, since this character heavily foreshadows the eclipse, all of that is taken out as well. It also skips the entire first arc, save for elements of the opening chapter. Still, essential elements like the relationship of the three MC's is still faithfully done and it's still a very solid take on the story despite everything, which imo speaks for the strength of the core story. As far as action, one particularly noteworthy sequence is cut and the manga is obviously much, much more violent and just generally graphic. Which, imo, is a good thing considering the subject matter. Some people get turned off by all of that, though. And, while I suppose I can understand that, I don't really agree. I hope that gives you some idea of what I am talking about. If the anime interested you in any way what so ever, I definitely recommend the manga. If you want more details, since I don't want to spoil anyone here, comment on my profile. edit: I'm only talking about the TV series, btw. I've not seen the movies yet, so I can't speak for them. That makes more sense that some stuff was cut out. Just giving my own personal impression from what the anime portrayed: the plot wasn't anything too surprising or outstanding in connection of events. Though the main 3 characters were pretty interesting, the rest didn't really stand out. The action sequences and confrontations weren't too exciting, and while the setting was neat, it wasn't very detailed. It also didn't over much variety in terms of the genres it covered. I do not plan to ever read Berserk as I'm not a big fan of gore and horror, so though I know my knowledge will never be complete, I was still interested to learn why it is held in such high regard. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| As for the Chimera Ant arc, I believe one of the reasons I didn't enjoy it as much as the others is the whole issue of character development. A lot of people make comparisons with other shounen and call it a deconstruction, while I simply view it as a nature of the arc (meaning it could hardly be any other way, though I give Togashi props for his portrayal of it). Simply put, when comparing characters, majority of the antagonists or villains of other shounen are already set in their motivations and ideals. It relates to the saying: "I know that! I wasn't born yesterday!" In relation, the Chimera Ants were practically born yesterday with their full faculties already and human intelligence, but no set system to speak of. Naturally, the world they were born into would shape their conceptions and ideals. The nature of other series won't allow for the possibility of an entire species to pop into existence overnight with a tabula rasa, or something very close to it anyway. So while this arc presented a great opportunity for it, it didn't really go beyond my expectations. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
RedRoseFring said: As for the Chimera Ant arc, I believe one of the reasons I didn't enjoy it as much as the others is the whole issue of character development. A lot of people make comparisons with other shounen and call it a deconstruction, while I simply view it as a nature of the arc (meaning it could hardly be any other way, though I give Togashi props for his portrayal of it). Simply put, when comparing characters, majority of the antagonists or villains of other shounen are already set in their motivations and ideals. It relates to the saying: "I know that! I wasn't born yesterday!" In relation, the Chimera Ants were practically born yesterday with their full faculties already and human intelligence, but no set system to speak of. Naturally, the world they were born into would shape their conceptions and ideals. The nature of other series won't allow for the possibility of an entire species to pop into existence overnight with a tabula rasa, or something very close to it anyway. So while this arc presented a great opportunity for it, it didn't really go beyond my expectations. ^ You're not alone. |
RedRoseFring said: As for the Chimera Ant arc, I believe one of the reasons I didn't enjoy it as much as the others is the whole issue of character development. A lot of people make comparisons with other shounen and call it a deconstruction, while I simply view it as a nature of the arc (meaning it could hardly be any other way, though I give Togashi props for his portrayal of it). Simply put, when comparing characters, majority of the antagonists or villains of other shounen are already set in their motivations and ideals. It relates to the saying: "I know that! I wasn't born yesterday!" In relation, the Chimera Ants were practically born yesterday with their full faculties already and human intelligence, but no set system to speak of. Naturally, the world they were born into would shape their conceptions and ideals. The nature of other series won't allow for the possibility of an entire species to pop into existence overnight with a tabula rasa, or something very close to it anyway. So while this arc presented a great opportunity for it, it didn't really go beyond my expectations. First off, I completely agree with you that this shouldn't have to be called a deconstruction and in no way does being a deconstruction necessarily make it a better or worse series. The reason it is a deconstruction is because the development is realistic, yes it is "How it is supposed to be" because that is what development should be. In other battle shounens such as Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, often times when really traumatic events occur, they do absolutely nothing to change the characters whatsoever. It even dates back to dragon ball, which also had that problem. There was little to no character development thus there was never a character who surpassed the 2d zone and many times when they tried to enter 3d zone, it was done lazily and unrealistically or forced. Gon, Killua, and Meruem however expressed development that not only made them enter 3d zone, but even at times 4d zone. Another thing that makes it a deconstruction is not just the development, it's that Togashi took typical battle shounen tropes and made it realistic.. well.. as realistic as you can in a fantasy world. lol. Meruem wasn't just the bad guy with no redeeming qualities, he grew, and it wasn't a simple, good guy beats bad guy scenario. Another trope that was done realistically was that the plan to defeat the all powerful demon was not just rush in and fight him head on, it took planning, strategy, teamwork, timing, and a lot of luck. When Gon did enter his new form it wasn't some glorious thing that occurred, it was terrifying, even for him. It would be equal to a scenario where Goku first turns super saiyan, looks at himself, and is terrified of what he becomes, and doesn't kill frieza because it is right, but because it's revenge. That's at least what I took from it. Edit: Would also like to point out that FMA:Brotherhood is also an exception to battle shounens with unrealistic character development. FMA and FMA:Brotherhood are both realistic takes on battle shounens as well and are not considered deconstructions to me because they do not take tropes and turn them around on themselves nor were they released at a time where battle shounens followed typical tropes as much as today. |
KetenJun 27, 2014 12:07 AM
Keten said: because the development is realistic, yes it is "How it is supposed to be" because that is what development should be. In other battle shounens such as Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, often times when really traumatic events occur, they do absolutely nothing to change the characters whatsoever. It even dates back to dragon ball, which also had that problem. There was little to no character development thus there was never a character who surpassed the 2d zone and many times when they tried to enter 3d zone Ummm. A lot of the character developments or changes in the back stories in Naruto occur due to tragic events. And I'm not really sure, how exactly can you call character development in Naruto ''little''. When all the main characters, and major supporting characters have developments, some being continuously developed, and fully dynamic. There is no ''4d zone''. Characters are either one dimensional, two dimensional, or three dimensional. Saying that only HxH from these battle anime/manga have three dimensional characters, is a pretty bold claim. A character doesn't necessiarly need character development to reach a multidimensional stage. All that three dimensional means, is that a character is believable, properly fleshed out and have more of a two track personality. Another thing that makes it a deconstruction is not just the development, it's that Togashi took typical battle shounen tropes and made it realistic.. well.. as realistic as you can in a fantasy world. lol. Meruem wasn't just the bad guy with no redeeming qualities, he grew, and it wasn't a simple, good guy beats bad guy scenario. The problem with this that fans forget, is that Meruem is literally a baby. He was born into this world as a clean slate, with only motivations to dominate based on his instincts as a King. So it goes without saying, developing him is far easier than developing a human character in other shows. There have been plenty of situations like what you described in other battle animanga. Pain in Naruto for example, his back story, how he became Pain, the conflict of ideals Naruto had with him, his vision of peace, his methods of wanting to reach that, and the conclusion to his character. You speak as if Anti villain is such a rare, an original concept and only Togashi thought of it first. Another trope that was done realistically was that the plan to defeat the all powerful demon was not just rush in and fight him head on, it took planning, strategy, teamwork, timing, and a lot of luck. Which makes it irrelevant. When it all it took is a bomb. Both of the two major fights in this arc, had zero strategy in them. In Netero's case, the only strategy was him getting a one on one with the King, the fight itself is completely devoid of any form of strategy or smart tacticians. It goes without saying, but the other major fight (Gon vs Pitou) was just a curb stomp. It's still rush and fight plan, it wouldn't have been if Togashi found another way to finish this whole arc, without using one simple plot device, that is supposed to be a ''surprise''. |
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| Are there any multidimensional naruto characters? I dont recall anyone having development, just an instantaneous speech that suddenly changes them. All of them were pretty shallow. Keten said: RedRoseFring said: As for the Chimera Ant arc, I believe one of the reasons I didn't enjoy it as much as the others is the whole issue of character development. A lot of people make comparisons with other shounen and call it a deconstruction, while I simply view it as a nature of the arc (meaning it could hardly be any other way, though I give Togashi props for his portrayal of it). Simply put, when comparing characters, majority of the antagonists or villains of other shounen are already set in their motivations and ideals. It relates to the saying: "I know that! I wasn't born yesterday!" In relation, the Chimera Ants were practically born yesterday with their full faculties already and human intelligence, but no set system to speak of. Naturally, the world they were born into would shape their conceptions and ideals. The nature of other series won't allow for the possibility of an entire species to pop into existence overnight with a tabula rasa, or something very close to it anyway. So while this arc presented a great opportunity for it, it didn't really go beyond my expectations. First off, I completely agree with you that this shouldn't have to be called a deconstruction and in no way does being a deconstruction necessarily make it a better or worse series. The reason it is a deconstruction is because the development is realistic, yes it is "How it is supposed to be" because that is what development should be. In other battle shounens such as Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, often times when really traumatic events occur, they do absolutely nothing to change the characters whatsoever. It even dates back to dragon ball, which also had that problem. There was little to no character development thus there was never a character who surpassed the 2d zone and many times when they tried to enter 3d zone, it was done lazily and unrealistically or forced. Gon, Killua, and Meruem however expressed development that not only made them enter 3d zone, but even at times 4d zone. Another thing that makes it a deconstruction is not just the development, it's that Togashi took typical battle shounen tropes and made it realistic.. well.. as realistic as you can in a fantasy world. lol. Meruem wasn't just the bad guy with no redeeming qualities, he grew, and it wasn't a simple, good guy beats bad guy scenario. Another trope that was done realistically was that the plan to defeat the all powerful demon was not just rush in and fight him head on, it took planning, strategy, teamwork, timing, and a lot of luck. When Gon did enter his new form it wasn't some glorious thing that occurred, it was terrifying, even for him. It would be equal to a scenario where Goku first turns super saiyan, looks at himself, and is terrified of what he becomes, and doesn't kill frieza because it is right, but because it's revenge. That's at least what I took from it. Edit: Would also like to point out that FMA:Brotherhood is also an exception to battle shounens with unrealistic character development. FMA and FMA:Brotherhood are both realistic takes on battle shounens as well and are not considered deconstructions to me because they do not take tropes and turn them around on themselves nor were they released at a time where battle shounens followed typical tropes as much as today. I think HxH and FMa are probably the only ones that focus on that, which is why everybody tends to view them differently from stabdard battle action anime. |
tsudecimo said: Keten said: because the development is realistic, yes it is "How it is supposed to be" because that is what development should be. In other battle shounens such as Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, often times when really traumatic events occur, they do absolutely nothing to change the characters whatsoever. It even dates back to dragon ball, which also had that problem. There was little to no character development thus there was never a character who surpassed the 2d zone and many times when they tried to enter 3d zone Ummm. A lot of the character developments or changes in the back stories in Naruto occur due to tragic events. And I'm not really sure, how exactly can you call character development in Naruto ''little''. When all the main characters, and major supporting characters have developments, some being continuously developed, and fully dynamic. There is no ''4d zone''. Characters are either one dimensional, two dimensional, or three dimensional. Saying that only HxH from these battle anime/manga have three dimensional characters, is a pretty bold claim. A character doesn't necessiarly need character development to reach a multidimensional stage. All that three dimensional means, is that a character is believable, properly fleshed out and have more of a two track personality. Another thing that makes it a deconstruction is not just the development, it's that Togashi took typical battle shounen tropes and made it realistic.. well.. as realistic as you can in a fantasy world. lol. Meruem wasn't just the bad guy with no redeeming qualities, he grew, and it wasn't a simple, good guy beats bad guy scenario. The problem with this that fans forget, is that Meruem is literally a baby. He was born into this world as a clean slate, with only motivations to dominate based on his instincts as a King. So it goes without saying, developing him is far easier than developing a human character in other shows. There have been plenty of situations like what you described in other battle animanga. Pain in Naruto for example, his back story, how he became Pain, the conflict of ideals Naruto had with him, his vision of peace, his methods of wanting to reach that, and the conclusion to his character. You speak as if Anti villain is such a rare, an original concept and only Togashi thought of it first. Another trope that was done realistically was that the plan to defeat the all powerful demon was not just rush in and fight him head on, it took planning, strategy, teamwork, timing, and a lot of luck. Which makes it irrelevant. When it all it took is a bomb. Both of the two major fights in this arc, had zero strategy in them. In Netero's case, the only strategy was him getting a one on one with the King, the fight itself is completely devoid of any form of strategy or smart tacticians. It goes without saying, but the other major fight (Gon vs Pitou) was just a curb stomp. It's still rush and fight plan, it wouldn't have been if Togashi found another way to finish this whole arc, without using one simple plot device, that is supposed to be a ''surprise''. if you wanna talk about irrelevance wait until Kishimoto makes the whole theme of Naruto 15 years of whatever and flush's it down the toilet in 1 whole chapter also he meant how an idiot like Naruto or Luffy would walk up to Mereum's palace gates screaming and yelling knowing that their plot armor would hold against anything he did as they always do in their respective show |
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| @tsudecimo Well I'll agree that Gon's fight had no strategy, not that I believe it (cause if we assume that there was a thought in his head beforehand using vows and limitations, that would at least imply that there was some sort of thinking how to win. But we can't prove that was the case so yea...) But when a man charges for who knows how long (a month?) the Zero Hand how can you claim there was no strategy? It's clear as day he had planned something for the fight. And not only that but he putted a bomb in his body too. Not only that but when he says when encountering Pitou that he prepared a variety of responses but that he made a "Bad Move" it's clearly a sign he came prepared for this. You really think he had no preparations for different possibilities concerning the King. The bomb was there to assure that no matter what they would win, even if that meant that he died right in palace and would kill everyone with him. Not to mention the psychological preparation. I strongly disagree about "All it took was just a bomb." |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
StefanHere said: if you wanna talk about irrelevance wait until Kishimoto makes the whole theme of Naruto 15 years of whatever and flush's it down the toilet in 1 whole chapter also he meant how an idiot like Naruto or Luffy would walk up to Mereum's palace gates screaming and yelling knowing that their plot armor would hold against anything he did as they always do in their respective show I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said in that post? I never talked about themes, only in the lack of strategy in the two major fights. And I already know what you are talking about, and sadly you just didn't get, or are confused of what exactly this ''15 years theme'' is about. When did that happen in Naruto exactly? when in Naruto was an antagonist inside a palace, surrounded by strong guards. And Naruto stormed the place? I don't know about one piece, and I don't care, but that didn't happen in Naruto. Most of Naruto's fights with the antagonists have been direct confrontation. Not a head strong straight forward attack, against an overwhelmingly strong opponent inside his strong base, like you are implying. Otherwise Naruto would have went straight to the Hidden Rain village, to try to take revenge, ignoring his lack of power, but that didn't happen now, did it? And oh, Naruto is most definitely not an idiot. |
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tsudecimo said: StefanHere said: if you wanna talk about irrelevance wait until Kishimoto makes the whole theme of Naruto 15 years of whatever and flush's it down the toilet in 1 whole chapter also he meant how an idiot like Naruto or Luffy would walk up to Mereum's palace gates screaming and yelling knowing that their plot armor would hold against anything he did as they always do in their respective show I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said in that post? I never talked about themes, only in the lack of strategy in the two major fights. And I already know what you are talking about, and sadly you just didn't get, or are confused of what exactly this ''15 years theme'' is about. When did that happen in Naruto exactly? when in Naruto was an antagonist inside a palace, surrounded by strong guards. And Naruto stormed the place? I don't know about one piece, and I don't care, but that didn't happen in Naruto. Most of Naruto's fights with the antagonists have been direct confrontation. Not a head strong straight forward attack, against an overwhelmingly strong opponent inside his strong base, like you are implying. Otherwise Naruto would have went straight to the Hidden Rain village, to try to take revenge, ignoring his lack of power, but that didn't happen now, did it? And oh, Naruto is most definitely not an idiot. http://i17.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5108.jpg http://i25.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5109.jpg http://i35.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5126.jpg http://i36.mangareader.net/naruto/264/naruto-1567957.jpg |
| ''We don't know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realise what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?'' - Uchiha Itachi |
soundscape said: @tsudecimo Well I'll agree that Gon's fight had no strategy, not that I believe it (cause if we assume that there was a thought in his head beforehand using vows and limitations, that would at least imply that there was some sort of thinking how to win. But we can't prove that was the case so yea...) But when a man charges for who knows how long (a month?) the Zero Hand how can you claim there was no strategy? It's clear as day he had planned something for the fight. And not only that but he putted a bomb in his body too. Not only that but when he says when encountering Pitou that he prepared a variety of responses but that he made a "Bad Move" it's clearly a sign he came prepared for this. You really think he had no preparations for different possibilities concerning the King. The bomb was there to assure that no matter what they would win, even if that meant that he died right in palace and would kill everyone with him. Not to mention the psychological preparation. I strongly disagree about "All it took was just a bomb." That is some really weak logic. So training before hand is counted as a strategy? because it follows the same thought process of preparing for a fight. And it's only worse in Gon's case, because they have been nothing that suggests that Gon had that in mind, before the invasion, and during his meeting of Pitou. It only suggest literally during it ''I don't care anymore, I will use all of it''. I'm not sure what you mean by charging the zero hand? when was that attack mentioned prior to it's usage? he didn't plan anything, he had the bomb as a last resort. All the fight between Netero and Meruem, is Netero's selfish desire, to fight someone who is stronger than him, that why he kept fighting and fighting with his own strength, despite knowing the inevitable outcome. I seriously don't understand at all what you mean by that Pitou scene. Prepared for what? his plan was extremely simple. Hire Zeno, to infiltrate the palace, and make him guarantee if necessary that he has a one on one with the King, with the bomb as a last resort and a guarantee for the King's demise. That's literally it. He didn't even take into account the fates of the Royal Guards. What if the Royal Guards didn't go to the site of the bomb? what if Pitou killed Gon? he is only concern and plan was to get rid of Meruem. I don't get how that basic level of planning is ''strategic'' or ''thoughtful'', those words are more fitted to describe what Knov, and Morel did prior to the invasion, with the smoke clones, and the portals. And he only managed to separate the King out of sheer luck, that Komugi got injured. There have been no indications that Netero would just use the bomb inside the palace. Otherwise, what's the point of Zeno? if there was a possibility for that course of action, then Zeno existence in the invasion was pointless in hindsight. What psychological preparation, and what's the relevance of it here? SaSa-Zoldyck said: http://i17.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5108.jpg http://i25.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5109.jpg http://i35.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5126.jpg http://i36.mangareader.net/naruto/264/naruto-1567957.jpg So? One situation, and it served as purpose for his future character development in the Pain arc. And there were only two antagonists. The hidden rain village is more comparable. I already had that in mind, when I wrote that, and knew someone would reference it. The problem here, is that guy is implying that it's the norm for him do that. When other situations contradict that (Sasuke rescue arc, Tsunade arc, Hidan and Kakzu arc, Pain arc, etc) |
tsudecimoJun 27, 2014 4:24 AM
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tsudecimo said: StefanHere said: if you wanna talk about irrelevance wait until Kishimoto makes the whole theme of Naruto 15 years of whatever and flush's it down the toilet in 1 whole chapter also he meant how an idiot like Naruto or Luffy would walk up to Mereum's palace gates screaming and yelling knowing that their plot armor would hold against anything he did as they always do in their respective show I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said in that post? I never talked about themes, only in the lack of strategy in the two major fights. And I already know what you are talking about, and sadly you just didn't get, or are confused of what exactly this ''15 years theme'' is about. When did that happen in Naruto exactly? when in Naruto was an antagonist inside a palace, surrounded by strong guards. And Naruto stormed the place? I don't know about one piece, and I don't care, but that didn't happen in Naruto. Most of Naruto's fights with the antagonists have been direct confrontation. Not a head strong straight forward attack, against an overwhelmingly strong opponent inside his strong base, like you are implying. Otherwise Naruto would have went straight to the Hidden Rain village, to try to take revenge, ignoring his lack of power, but that didn't happen now, did it? And oh, Naruto is most definitely not an idiot. now i don't remember alot about Naruto but i can recall one thing is that after defeating the last Path of pain he learned of his location and in his current state and possibly out of chakra (cant remember exactly) walked into the mouth of a cave knowing of how strong the rinnegan armed with a book and the almighty talk no jutsu now the uncertainty of what lies in the cave was similar to the lack of intel they collected on Mereum and the palace is just a huge cave in context and talking about the relevance of Gon's and Netero's fight how i experienced them was twice as much as everything in the Naruto series combine so i felt it necessary to compare the two (in my opinion) the theme of Naruto was work hard, come from less then nothing (hate in Naruto's specific case), draw your own destiny and becoming Hokage on his own merit's as it couldn't be a dictatorship as Itachi's excellent quote on becoming Hokage came to mind but that was ruined as Naruto's destiny to become great(reincarnation or some bs) and easily become the hero of the leaf village resulting in the position of Hokage |
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soundscape said: @tsudecimo Well I'll agree that Gon's fight had no strategy, not that I believe it (cause if we assume that there was a thought in his head beforehand using vows and limitations, that would at least imply that there was some sort of thinking how to win. But we can't prove that was the case so yea...) But when a man charges for who knows how long (a month?) the Zero Hand how can you claim there was no strategy? It's clear as day he had planned something for the fight. And not only that but he putted a bomb in his body too. Not only that but when he says when encountering Pitou that he prepared a variety of responses but that he made a "Bad Move" it's clearly a sign he came prepared for this. You really think he had no preparations for different possibilities concerning the King. The bomb was there to assure that no matter what they would win, even if that meant that he died right in palace and would kill everyone with him. Not to mention the psychological preparation. I strongly disagree about "All it took was just a bomb." A fight where a character is enraged by emotions shouldnt be some strategic fight, that would actually be stupid and...make no sense to be honest. Netero using the bomb as a final act shows strategy in itself so no need to discuss that. As for Naruto, only strategies are employed by shikamaru, and usually it's just convenience, not cleverness. |
Well excuse me for being weak I didn't realize your great intelligence. Charging the Zero Hand was shown in episode 126 (it showed that he was planning this move several weeks before). Thoughtful is not the same as strategic. The plan was isolation of the King everything else was not that important as you mention it. He was prepared about different possibilities how to isolate the King from the RGs, at least that's what is being implied in general. Obviously he wasn't planning to isolate him using Komugi... Yea but he couldn't be 100 per cent sure that the isolation would work even if he hired Zeno, how is that even worth mentioning? Of course there might be a possibility that Zeno fails to isolate the King and they fight right there cause every single plan they had fails(remember the fact that they don't know what abilities the enemy has????), seriously why do you even bring that up. The psychological preparation is relevant to the statement of yours "All it took was a bomb..". Because you are only looking at the result ignoring the whole journey. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
StefanHere said: now i don't remember alot about Naruto but i can recall one thing is that after defeating the last Path of pain he learned of his location and in his current state and possibly out of chakra (cant remember exactly) walked into the mouth of a cave knowing of how strong the rinnegan armed with a book and the almighty talk no jutsu Except he didn't ran out of Chakara? in his confrontation with Pain, he almost snapped, and his eyes briefly turned to the common look of the Kyuubi, that clearly means, that if he wanted to fight, the Kyuubi's powers was still very much there. The problem of what you are saying here. Is that Naruto didn't want to fight with him, he wanted to talk, and understand Nagato, because he couldn't find an answer to what Pain asked him about true peace. So this only reinforce my point greatly. He wasn't looking for a fight in the first place, and told the other shinobi he met, that he wants to go alone, so he ''didn't storm in''. now the uncertainty of what lies in the cave was similar to the lack of intel they collected on Mereum and the palace is just a huge cave in context He wanted to talk, and believed that Pain wouldn't wanna fight him. It wasn't a situation that demanded strategy, plus my other points above. I would say the fact that he didn't storm inside, and try to take his revenge immediately, and that revenge wasn't the only thought in his mind, is atypical, interesting and unique. and talking about the relevance of Gon's and Netero's fight how i experienced them was twice as much as everything in the Naruto series combine so i felt it necessary to compare the two (in my opinion) What? What the hell does that even mean? experienced what twice as much? do you mean they are better than everything in Naruto, if so then that still highly irrelevant. the theme of Naruto was work hard, come from less then nothing (hate in Naruto's specific case), draw your own destiny and becoming Hokage on his own merit's as it couldn't be a dictatorship as Itachi's excellent quote on becoming Hokage came to mind but that was ruined as Naruto's destiny to become great(reincarnation or some bs) and easily become the hero of the leaf village resulting in the position of Hokage No it wasn't. See, I knew what you meant, and what you thought of the themes. Well instead of repeating myself, I will copy paste an old argument. Some parts of it are irrelevant. So you can ignore the character development part. |
tsudecimoJun 27, 2014 4:44 AM
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I disagree about Naruto, there are pretty good strategic fights. Not all of them but there are some good stuff. Even something as simple as Naruto using clones to establish the way he will hit the enemy is already considered strategy. I agree about Gon but if he actually thought beforehand of using vows that implies there was some thinking involved. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
soundscape said: I disagree about Naruto, there are pretty good strategic fights. Not all of them but there are some good stuff. Even something as simple as Naruto using clones to establish the way he will hit the enemy is already considered strategy. I agree about Gon but if he actually thought beforehand of using vows that implies there was some thinking involved. But the 'steategy', so-called because they call it that, is ery simple and I think is not clever ebough to be qualified as "strategic" fight. I mean look at naruto vs haku, he had a great advantage and was hidden from them, but decided to come in shouting. 600 chapters later and it's still the same. |
| tsudecimo... Umm... I know that you have a real passion for Naruto so I will be delicate with the subject. Cause I know how much you love it and I don't want it to come off as insulting you at all. Was Pein a good character? Yes, I actually loved his ideals. He WAS a good character.... Until a certain event happened... that made all of his development flushed down the toilet... A certain event that made absolutely no sense... It was when Naruto went to see Nagato. Naruto convinced Pein to join his side after a 5 minute conversation. First off, it is out of character for Pein to care about what he has to say, and even if he did care what he has to say, what Naruto said had little to no way of affecting Pein. What Naruto said was that the hero in Jiraiya's book was based off Nagato but was named Naruto. Okay, now why in sam hells would Pein give a flying fuck about what Jiraiya wrote in a book? HE KILLED JIRAIYA, he clearly had no interest in what Jiraiya had to say or wanted to say because Pein had developed a strong hatred and sadness for humanity, furthermore, *EVEN IF* this information caused Pein to have a seed planted in him which would turn him good, how in Sams hell does saying, "Trust in me even though I have no idea what I am doing" cause him to abandon his ambitions he set up for decades, and trust in this boy, who he can easily kill in a second? Pein had 1 ambition, but he was often conflicted about certain things. He was still a 1 trick pony, but was conflicted about it, thus he is a 2D character with a sudden jerk of a move to "Change" him. This is the reason I feel none of the villains have any sort of character development... Also I would like to say that showing a backstory is not development that is character "Fleshing out". It shows who the character is. Now, Difference between 3d and 4d characters. 3D characters are characters with more than 1 ambition or decision and are conflicted about each of them. Meaning say... "Do I eat the banana, or not eat the banana? Wait, there's also ping pong to play, and a journey to be had." While a 2D character would just do the "Do I eat the banana or not eat the banana?" 4D characters are incredibly rare in the anime medium but they do exist, these are characters who change as they go, these are characters that go, "Do I eat the banana or don't eat the banana? Oh wait there is also ping pong, let's play ping pong, crap this guy beat me 11-0, now my career is over, quitting ping pong he goes on a journey to find himself, coming across another sport called skateboarding, and becomes a skateboarder." It is a character who changes ambitions or emotional attachments by experiencing something in life. No character is 4D in Naruto so I can assume why you have never seen one and thus do not think they exist. Hunter x Hunter on the other hand, Gon is a 4D character because in the Chimera Ant Arc, his development caused him to have several ambitions at the same time, and change his opinion on such ones based on the traumatic events in the arc. "Pitou can't... heal kite...?" This caused him to go into a state of shock where he realized the entire purpose of this plan was a big waste of time, and without thinking, he decided to throw all effort and talent he had put into trying to find Ging, and set his ambitions on nothing more than killing Pitou, despite the consequences being that he may die or lose his nen forever. Naruto's characters are all 2D because they all want 1 thing. Kiba wants to be hokage for dogs. Sakura loves Sasuke, Sasuke hates things, Naruto wants to be hokage and bring about peace, Jiraiya was a perverted hermit. They occasionally are conflicted about their ambitions... Actually no Kiba isn't so he is actually a 1D character. |
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