| Call me a fanboy, but I actually prefer the new look. Does anime need to be realistic? Do anime men need to have rippling muscles? Each and every anime has it's own, unique art style. Sure, there may be trends along the way, but you can't argue that character design as a whole has changed across the board. I can't even begin to imagine Clannad with realistic-looking characters, but then again, can you really compare the character design from Clannad to that of Code Geass? Or TTGL? What you have provided us are isolated examples from some of the earliest stages of anime. A time when anime was still buried away for the most part and there were only so many genres/art forms. As it is now, I'll watch my slice of life and romance without rippling biceps, thank you very much. I mean come on, you're watching anime in the first place. Why do the characters need to look like real humans? |
ShaolinRibiero said: If I had to hazard a guess, it would be Japan's crazy obsession with weight loss and being skinny (for both women AND men), as well as the popularity of the Final Fantasy franchise and other related RPGs with such character design. The answer is simple. All the fangirls came out of the closet after 2000. |
| It's cool, ukonkivi. Feel free to report my posts too if it makes you feel better. I already reported yours early on page 2, and said the same thing that made you piss your pants so much last time; that someone should finally ban you. az_0k said: I have to disagree. It's true that these series change to suit the market (even KoF has some bishies as the protagonists nowadays such as K' or Ash), that's why it's important to always compare the first installment. The first SF game came out in 1987, whereas the first KOF game came out in 1994. The first KOF game was 1994, yes, but they evolved from the original Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury SNK series, which also began in the late eighties. Besides, the first Street Fighter is a completely different animal than SF2, which is where most fighting game fans consider the series to have truly originated from, and that came out in the early nineties. Basically, SNK and Capcom started releasing their fighters at the same time, and were constantly locked in competition. Also, I'm not even sure I'd agree with your overall assessment of King of Fighters. Iori is an extreme example, but what about Krauser, Yamazaki, Geese Howard, Igniz, Kim Kaphwan, Chang, Terry and Andy Bogard, Garcia, Vice, Mature, etc, etc? It's only in the 2000s, with characters like K', that they really moved into the territory you're describing. So yes, nice pictures, but the actual release of these games, as well as their respective character line-ups, largely destroy your argument. |
| You're the one choosing to be abrasive here. I've nothing to be worried about. Funny out of all the things I've said recently you want to choose such a thing to respond to. Yes, I will proceed to report you now. And it's probably no need for mentioning at the moment and continue on a useless, off topic conversation you're derailing your thread with. ShaolinRibiero said: to this disturbing little alien;  Unrelated to the topic, I think it's uncourteous to hyperlink like that. Also, this mention here seems to do with the growing "moe" aesthetic. Which I believe has to do with Japan's ever growing "cute culture" as a whole. Since the beginning of anime, there have always been some cute aesthetics, when not coming to more 'gritty' anime like fist of the northstar. And over time, as technology and subculture gained momentum and time to develope, so did the industry. That would be including anime. It's a much hypothesized idea of why in the 1970 Japan started embracing cute, but one of the more prominent theories is that was not only more representative of their "wa" harmony culture, but also good business in general. After a shady war past, making them seem less dangerous and dirty, and more endearing. Prominent theory might not be the right word. It is one of the theories I hear the most is more like it. I would have once been able to cite a couple of books, but I have forgotten their names and authors. |
 Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| I only read it quickly but I did not notice anyone remembering that 70s and 80s were the cultural revelation of Japan towards the appreciation of the body and it's anatomical features. I always thought that would be the reason why mid 70s and 80s anime is so "muscled". The evolution of manga/anime character design may be very related to the cultural release and westernization of the country. Fashion evolution may be a very important factor as well. It would be interesting to pin-point the motif changers (who was the first creature to draw and abuse 17 y/o moe lolis with giant eyes that never wore ortopedic shoes?) |
 Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| I think any art style is fine as long as it fits the show. For some fighting show, some more realistic and muscular characters fit. For a romance, not really. I personally don't think anime has to have realistic looking characters at all, big eyes, small noses? Why not. Animation is art, and setting some kind of standard on art and saying how it should be done is dubious. I think every art style has it's appeal. I love the characters in Monster, which look just like normal people, and i also like the weird looking girls in Lucky Star. The obvious change in art styles over the last 30 years is undeniable, but i don't think it changed for the worse, or for the better, it simply changed. |
ShaolinRibiero said: The first KOF game was 1994, yes, but they evolved from the original Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury SNK series, which also began in the late eighties. Actually, the original concept of KOF is more like an Art-of-Fighting-Vs-Fatal-Fury sort of thing, with Terry and Ryo as the protagonists. And I agree with you in that AoF and FF both have muscular characters. BUT, to suit the anime trend in the 90s, they changed the gamestory completely (from 30-year-old martial artists into high school kids with super elemental powers) and introduced Kyo (then Iori at 95) as the protagonist. To some degree it was a success. The fact is, when people think about SF, the first characters come to their mind are muscle-bound Ryu and Ken, while when people think about KOF, the first character come to their mind is Kyo who is far from muscular. The point I'm trying to make here is that Muscle symbolizes SF and Kyo symbolizes KOF even though both games feature some muscles guys. (It's true that Iori got the upper hand in terms of popularity in the end but Kyo is still the symbol). |
| To be honest I think there's several factors that contribute to the design changes over the years, the primary one being society itself, something which is also reflected in other trends in anime over the years. Going back to the 70's and 80's, societies across the world were still very much male dominated. If you recall some of the more prominent action movies of the time, you'll notice that the penchant was for large, overly muscled men, and curvacious, overly endowed women. The anime of the time was reflective of this in a way, but to a much lesser degree as it was mainly aimed at the Japanese market. Shows like Hokuto no Ken were designed in such a way that they would appeal to Western audiences, as the various studios and production companies had, for a number of years, been aware of the fact that they would eventually have to enter the markets in America and Europe. Given that the "ideal" physique for a man or woman in the western world is different to that of the East, it's only natural that the studios would alter the designs to match their target market. However, if you look at the anime that was available at the time, you'll notice that the archetype of the muscular hero is disticntly absent from the majority of action based anime. Now one could brush this off by claiming that shows like Battle Royal High School, HnK, etc, place a heavy emphasis on martial arts, but this would be no more than a half-truth. One of the greatest changes in western society is actually it's awareness of martial arts. The old style of character design is very reminiscent of the "heavyweight boxer" or the "Mr Universe". If you look at more modern martial arts based anime you'll see that whilst there are characters who fit the older model, there are also characters who fit the "Bruce Lee" model as well. Kenichi has a mixed bag of characters of all body types, making it a good example to use here. This change has permeated into every visual medium (Batman, for example, is now leaner, with more muscle tone than he had during the 70s and 80s, which is reflective of his martial arts background). Nowadays people are very much aware of the fact that you don't have to be a musclebound freak of nature to kick someone's ass, so it's only natural that anime reflects this. In other words, who would win the fight - Arnie or Bruce Lee? As for the overly cute characters and the whole concept of moe... I still don't understand it, or what all the fuss is about. It's probably just a passing fad - like bellbottoms, tie n dye, peasant revolts, ice ages, etc. Oh, and remember I mentioned the changes in society? Well try to find a good female action lead from the 70's and 80's and you'll understand what I mean. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Archaeon said: Nowadays people are very much aware of the fact that you don't have to be a musclebound freak of nature to kick someone's ass, so it's only natural that anime reflects this. In other words, who would win the fight - Arnie or Bruce Lee? The rest of your post is excellent, but believe it or not...being a musclebound freak is in fact the best way to describe the physique of most of the world's top fighters. Contrary to anime or the bizarre general belief, one can't be an effective fighter while being skinny and frail. Arnie, a body builder who has probably never had a fight in his adult life couldn't defeat Bruce Lee, but any large amateur wrestler, or for that matter, even a small cross-trained wrestler like Sean Sherk, certainly could. So this trend basically evolved independent of reality. Archaeon said: Oh, and remember I mentioned the changes in society? Well try to find a good female action lead from the 70's and 80's and you'll understand what I mean. Actually, the example I used, Mamiya, is probably the best one I've seen from either of those two decades. az_0k said: And I agree with you in that AoF and FF both have muscular characters. BUT, to suit the anime trend in the 90s, they changed the gamestory completely (from 30-year-old martial artists into high school kids with super elemental powers) and introduced Kyo (then Iori at 95) as the protagonist. To some degree it was a success. Yes, but so did Street Fighter! Or did you forget the awful Street Fighter character Remy? Rather than say SNK or Capcom each represented something different, and were from different eras, it's more accurate to say that both evolved in the late nineties, early 2000s away from the hulking fighter and more of the skinny, frail, long haired character. SNK certainly moreso than Capcom. |
| Things tend to change as time goes by, so do opinions. Opinions of what looks good now are different than opinions of what looked good then. After a while, people started drawing differently, and other people also started drawing differently, changing the common style of anime in the 80's to the styles we use now. Anime is pretty much the same thing as a cartoon, and we don't go on about the styles of cartoons, do we? In both cases, the designs are odd looking, but that's okay, because it's not meant to look realistic. In my opinion. the styles of anime then and the styles of anime now are both unrealistic. I mean, most people I've seen aren't muscular like the characters in older anime were. Also, most people I know aren't as thin as the people in anime now, and none of them have large eyes, no noses or no mouths. I'll admit that now the designs are much weirder, but it's because peoples' preferences have changed. Back then, the majority of people preferred the type of looks that were shown in older anime for those characters. Now, more people prefer the current types of character looks. |
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ingdotcorp said: Post Thanks for that complete waste of space, restating everything I put in the intro to this topic. The whole point of the thread, which you probably didn't bother reading through, and completely missed, was WHY this change occurred. WHY tastes changed. Stating that this did occur in is brainless, irrelevant repetition. It would be like responding to "why is the sky blue?" with "it's blue!" |
ShaolinRibiero said: ingdotcorp said: Post Thanks for that complete waste of space, restating everything I put in the intro to this topic. The whole point of the thread, which you probably didn't bother reading through, and completely missed, was WHY this change occurred. WHY tastes changed. Stating that this did occur in is brainless, irrelevant repetition. It would be like responding to "why is the sky blue?" with "it's blue!" They changed because they changed, that's the answer. People can't explain why they like something all the time, they just do. People stopped favoring the older type of character designs and started creating newer kinds that they did like, and other people liked those designs more than the older ones too. The question "Why is the sky blue?" is a completely different situation, since there is a specific answer to that. There isn't a specific answer to why peoples opinions change, it's not something scientific, they just do. People apparently stopped liking the muscular larger designs, because they felt they didn't look as good anymore, and started liking thinner designs because they did look good to them. You can't explain WHY people stopped liking something other than by saying that it just didn't appeal to them anymore. Why do trends start? Because someone starts liking something else, and someone else also starts liking that thing, until many people like that thing and it becomes more popular. |
| |
| Besides the obvious I think we're trying here to discover why people changed their tastes. Why is the frail thin effeminate male nowadays more appreciated than the macho figure of 20 years ago. Another hint would be... More girls are watching anime. =p |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| Are more girls watching anime? I mean, I'm not Japanese nor do I study the culture, so I don't really know. I just assumed that anime was regarded the same way that live action television is over here. |
ladyxzeus said: Besides the obvious I think we're trying here to discover why people changed their tastes. Why is the frail thin effeminate male nowadays more appreciated than the macho figure of 20 years ago. Another hint would be... More girls are watching anime. =p Fangirls, to be more precise. Here in North America it may not grab so much attention but in Japan/Korea/China, errrrrrrr.....unbearable. Cultural differences, including diferences in aesthetic judgement, still exist today between North America and East Asia even among the anime communities. |
I felt it belongs in this thread >.> <.< |
| @ Shaolin I don't mean that someone with the muscle tone of an elastic band is suddenly going to lay the smackdown on a bodybuilder (but you never know...). The picture of Sean Sherk you provided does show him as muscular, but if you notice, his physique is also quite lean as well. I was simply pointing out that the ideal physique is generally perceived as that of the mesomorph (trim waist, wide shoulders, naturally muscular, can easily burn fat and gain muscle wieght, etc), and that most experienced martial artists have similar physiques to this (I should maybe have explained this better). Many of the marial artists I know have similar physiques to Sean Sherk, yet unless they wear clothes to emphasize their bodies, you wouldn't really notice how muscular they actually were. My term "musclebound freak" was simply to differentiate the people who are in danger of having their clothes explode whenever they make sudden movements (also known as "Hulking Out", minus the purple pants phenomenon) As for female leads, can you think of any other good ones aside from Mamiya? |
ArchaeonFeb 16, 2009 12:11 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
noteDhero said: Are more girls watching anime? I mean, I'm not Japanese nor do I study the culture, so I don't really know. I just assumed that anime was regarded the same way that live action television is over here. I don't think so. I also do not know much about the evolution of manga (I guess the debate is more precise if we focus on it, since most anime originates from there) However it seems to me that even after the Shoujo revolution of the 70s young girls only became more interested during the 90s (moment when magical divas and super powerful bishounen seem to have appeared) It almost seems that during the 80s anime and manga was targeted at the same public of American comics (say what you want, but Spiderman is not targeted for girls) but then it outgrew its boundaries, focusing on a more feminine trait to the characters (and not only to the stories, alongtimeagowhencharactershadnoses this was the way to distinguish the genres xD And flower detail) Then it evolved to an unified thing, that should please both genders that, nowadays, are almost equally respected and have almost the same interests. Notice that as the art changes came, new plot tricks had to be created to please separated genders... Separatedly. =p |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| As many before me stated, the character designs changed because the people's taste changed. You can't say that Japanese girls aren't attracted to skinney guys with their hair covering their face because clearly they must be with the fact that they go all googoo gaga over the guys there that look like that. And I love how you choose a picture of Nagisa that doesn't even look like her (I had to do several double takes before I figured it out). Something tells me you picked only the very best pictures of your favorite designs. While there's no doubt in my mind that guys still and always will prefer girls with huge boobs and skinney waists, they probably changed it because guys with huge muscules and girls with huge boobs are very unrealistic. They aren't many Japanese that look like that. And my final word is even thought I'm not 100% sure why it changed, but thank God it did because those designs are hideous. |
ladyxzeus said: I don't think so. I also do not know much about the evolution of manga (I guess the debate is more precise if we focus on it, since most anime originates from there) However it seems to me that even after the Shoujo revolution of the 70s young girls only became more interested during the 90s (moment when magical divas and super powerful bishounen seem to have appeared) But then why did it take 20 years to take footing? What happened between the Shoujo revolution of the 70 and the androgyny of the late 90s to stave off that development? Shouldn't the 80s have been when we started seeing a shift? patient_senses said: As many before me stated, the character designs changed because the people's taste changed. You can't say that Japanese girls aren't attracted to skinney guys with their hair covering their face because clearly they must be with the fact that they go all googoo gaga over the guys there that look like that. And I love how you choose a picture of Nagisa that doesn't even look like her (I had to do several double takes before I figured it out). Something tells me you picked only the very best pictures of your favorite designs. While there's no doubt in my mind that guys still and always will prefer girls with huge boobs and skinney waists, they probably changed it because guys with huge muscules and girls with huge boobs are very unrealistic. They aren't many Japanese that look like that. And my final word is even thought I'm not 100% sure why it changed, but thank God it did because those designs are hideous. But we still see girls with unrealistically proportioned boobs. Please explain to me how Nagisa's basketball eyes are realistic? I think the women of that period were quite realistic, and LotGH was rife with realistic designs that few can compare to. Sure it had it's pretty boys, but there was much more variation in things like facial structure and body type. I don't understand why the default is such an extreme aesthetic. That's what really confuses me. |
noteDhero said: patient_senses said: As many before me stated, the character designs changed because the people's taste changed. You can't say that Japanese girls aren't attracted to skinney guys with their hair covering their face because clearly they must be with the fact that they go all googoo gaga over the guys there that look like that. And I love how you choose a picture of Nagisa that doesn't even look like her (I had to do several double takes before I figured it out). Something tells me you picked only the very best pictures of your favorite designs. While there's no doubt in my mind that guys still and always will prefer girls with huge boobs and skinney waists, they probably changed it because guys with huge muscules and girls with huge boobs are very unrealistic. They aren't many Japanese that look like that. And my final word is even thought I'm not 100% sure why it changed, but thank God it did because those designs are hideous. But we still see girls with unrealistically proportioned boobs. Please explain to me how Nagisa's basketball eyes are realistic? I think the women of that period were quite realistic, and LotGH was rife with realistic designs that few can compare to. Sure it had it's pretty boys, but there was much more variation in things like facial structure and body type. I don't understand why the default is such an extreme aesthetic. That's what really confuses me. Dating all the way back to Astro Boy, there's a large precedent for basketball eyes in anime. But if you ask me where the calling came from, I have to say Sailor Moon. That's where the expectation was finally set both by Japanese studios and domestic and overseas markets. When people thought anime, that is what they expected. They didn't expect Harlock or Rose of Versailles or Hokuto no Ken. They expected funny looking kids with huge freakin' eyes and itty bitty mouths who have emotional expressions American cartoonists had never dreamt of until then. It give the medium a unique quality and an aesthetic everyone would recognize. From then on, the facial standard carried over to more mainstream successes and finally into most of what we watch today. At least that's how I see it. |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
noteDhero said: ladyxzeus said: I don't think so. I also do not know much about the evolution of manga (I guess the debate is more precise if we focus on it, since most anime originates from there) However it seems to me that even after the Shoujo revolution of the 70s young girls only became more interested during the 90s (moment when magical divas and super powerful bishounen seem to have appeared) But then why did it take 20 years to take footing? What happened between the Shoujo revolution of the 70 and the androgyny of the late 90s to stave off that development? Shouldn't the 80s have been when we started seeing a shift? I don't really know... Getting out of the closet maybe? I also think most people are missing the point of discovering why did people's tastes change. Actually, I don't even agree with this. Nowadays there are many good people that still like some good old heart shaped muscular villain. 30 years ago they would probably like giant breasted dumb looking atennae girl. Because, yes, they also exist then (not leading anime though) The "style" change, that is what is bothering us at the moment, probably does not derivate from "taste". Art does not derivate from "taste", it is a social factor that requires more than "I like it vs I don't like it". I will throw another dumb option: since the manga industry ascended into epic proportions more art has to be done in less time. Leaving less oportunity for highly detailed bodies and replacing them by simple, yet proportionally enjoyable, lines. Nobody here is saying evil things about Nagisa or praising 80s shounen. We're comparing. Edit: And Splitters option is probable as well, even though I think we should not valorize the Western market as key reason for design/plot/whatever changes. I think they care less about us than what we want to believe. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| My point regarding Nagisa was more attuned to the "realism" of her design that patient seems to think of as true, but both of you are right, Splitter and Ladyxzeus. Perhaps it was the reaction of Western markets to that helped this shift. I think Japan cares more than we're led to believe. The western market, if tapped correctly could easily triple profits for all publishers. One day they will get it right, and I shudder to think what will be the standard then. |
| Not saying the Western opinion shaped that market, but by having a recognizable look, anime probably became more profitable domestically and overseas simply because people knew what they were getting themselves into by then. Also remember America isn't the only overseas consumer of anime. |
| My first novel, Kardia has been published! Click here to read! |
Archaeon said: Going back to the 70's and 80's, societies across the world were still very much male dominated. If you recall some of the more prominent action movies of the time, you'll notice that the penchant was for large, overly muscled men, and curvacious, overly endowed women. Actually, while the remark on men is true from the late 70's onwards, it was only into the 80's that the ideal woman became more rounded, and it was only in the 90's that it began to take ridiculous proportions. In the 60's and 70's, most female leads were either petite or tall and slim; in anime, Emeraldas and co. would probably most accurately represent the type. The change in the 80's and especially the 90's was rather universal in the West, and was especially prevalent in comic books: compare the older female superheroes to their newer counterparts. For all the rantings, the buxom female has really won out in both film and comics, as has the rugged man, a few exceptions notwithstanding. To go a step further: az_0k said: The fact is, when people think about SF, the first characters come to their mind are muscle-bound Ryu and Ken, while when people think about KOF, the first character come to their mind is Kyo who is far from muscular. The character that first comes to my mind, and probably to quite a few others, in KOF is Mai. And yes, while she is older than KOF, she is still one of the most recognisable characters, and surely one of the faces of the series. Though every now and then she, and other more buxom characters in the series, have been subject to style changes, the filled-out form has held out. As has it in games in general: when all is said and done, in both Western and Asian games most female characters are either relatively realistic or, what happens far more often, grossly exaggerated in attributes. The only real exceptions are some RPG's and visual novels. The anime-manga-visual novel-continuum seems to be the exception, not the norm. It can, therefore, hardly reflect an overall aesthetic sense. It is exceptional, as well, in its use of younger main characters, even though, by and large, the intended audience is no different. Which brings me back to the 'why?', with the question added, 'why anime/manga?'. A larger female audience might explain things, as we can fairly say that there are more female readers of manga than there are of comics, notwithstanding a general rise in female audience over the past twenty years, but this still does not explain why series of which the intended audience is primary male should have their design changed as a result. A larger Western audience doesn't seem to be a real answer, either, as this only shifts the question to 'why would the Western audience recognise such an aesthetics more easily than it did the older ones?'. Also, the growth of a Western audience really became rampant only after the styles had already started to shift halfway into the 90's. That the new style was immediately recognised as 'anime', moreso than its predecessors, must be granted, though. As an example, already in 1997 a tabletop roleplaying game came out that named itself Big Eyes, Small Mouth, in its very name focusing on what was seen as the most visible characteristics. Technical issues of ease of drawing might be something of a reason, as it is noticeable that many newer series pay somewhat less attention to details of a character's features and clothing than did older, but, again, there is really no reason for the development of big eyes and small mouths. Keeping the LoGH-look really shouldn't be more difficult, as it is equally stylised. The only answer as to the 'why' that I can think of is that there must have been a choice of wanting to give male leads in male-targeted action series a sense of 'in some twisted world, this could be you', while giving some of the female characters (though there are still plenty disproportioned females here) a sense of 'in some twisted world, this could be that girl next door you have a crush on'. In this sense it's no different from many books coming out in the West, especially in the fantasy genre, where the main characters are set out to be as 'normal' and 'average' as possible in their thoughts and feelings. Conan has long ceased to be a favourite. As to the 'why did the creators think of it all?' and 'why at that point in time?', I have no clue. Could it simply be that, for some reason, some shows started to experience with the new style and became amazingly popular overnight? If so, perhaps it's nothing more than a market-oriented approach. |
santetjanFeb 16, 2009 4:43 PM
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| Awesome, this thread is back on track. Takai said: I felt it belongs in this thread >.> <.< From what manga is that hilarious panel from? Archaeon said: As for female leads, can you think of any other good ones aside from Mamiya? Heh, not really. Then again, I can count on two hands the number of good female characters in the 90s and 2000s. ladyxzeus said: Nowadays there are many good people that still like some good old heart shaped muscular villain. Quit making fun of my fandom of Dio Brando! The guy is simultaneously a hilarious and a terrifying villain! santetjan said: Post Excellent post. I was really getting tired of posts that didn't even attempt to answer the question of why, or pointed out irrelevant, contradictory arguments, such as the change in shoujo conventions (why would does this affect shounen, again?), or how the muscular build was supposed to "appeal to Westerners"...even though anime today is MUCH more heavily marketed towards the US, and has a larger audience there than it did 20 years ago. It's not strictly connected the focus, but I should also point out that while on here, most people prefer the new aesthetic, go to a place with more 20-somethings, like SRK (fighting game website, forum about 8 times as big as this one), and it's the exact opposite there; everyone is tired of the pretty boy look, and wants the tough, muscled warrior. |
| Still, if the anatomically impossible girls are to be a fantasy of the regular guy, wouldn't anatomically perfect girls be an ever better fantasy? I have never seen it, but I don't think it's impossible to make a supah kawaii harem with the exagerated/super realistic art. xD It is more like the evolution of "shounen" included the pretty boy and the moe girl. After all, what is produced to guys nowadays anyway? =p And this evolution must have a social meaning. Either the female role evoluted (in a twisted way, but ok), or everyone decided that sweating blood for a higher good was a bad thing... I don't know. Where are the Japanese of MAL when we need them to explain us their social history... I personally like any of the designs (even though I prefer the bishounen look over anything else, just because) And I'm still trying to understand why the first 2 pages of this board are about Bleach and not about the actuall issue. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
Archaeon said: Oh, and remember I mentioned the changes in society? Well try to find a good female action lead from the 70's and 80's and you'll understand what I mean. Riply from Alien(s). Was my hero for many years. She kicked so much arse, especially in Aliens. |
| @ Asako I meant in anime. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| I didn't say that Nagisa looked realistic nor did I say huge eyes are realistic. I was talking about the huge boob look being unrealistic. I know they haven't completely scrapped that look, but nowadays it's often used in a comedic way. I mean, it's drawings after all, not too realistic in the first place. But as a chick, it's more annoying to see these unrealistic huge boobs popping up on my screen than it is to see unrealistically big eyes on the characters. |
patient_senses said: I didn't say that Nagisa looked realistic nor did I say huge eyes are realistic. I was talking about the huge boob look being unrealistic. I know they haven't completely scrapped that look, but nowadays it's often used in a comedic way. I mean, it's drawings after all, not too realistic in the first place. The example I used, Mamiya, has normal sized breasts. Same goes for most of the series in the 80s and 70s that I recall. Drawing a more human, realistic female body has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the chest. |
YoungVagabondFeb 17, 2009 3:05 AM
| What a very interesting thread to read. santetjan said: Much has already been said on how style in general seem to come in contrasting waves: when the action series of the 80's and early 90's are compared to those that came before, the difference is just as great: oldies as Mazinger or the Yamato's have characters that are in some ways closer to the modern look than that of the 80's. This is quite an insightful post, in my opinion. The effeminate-looking action hero is not something new to anime -- all you have to do is look at the designs for the aforementioned Mazinger or Brave Raideen or even the original Cyborg 009 to see something that is strikingly similar to a lot of what we have today. You had the origins of manly designs back then with stuff like Tiger Mask too, but the respective bases of these design philosophies were in place a long time before the timeframe of the 80s or 90s. Even if the cause of a design change can't be isolated, the mere fact that these two existed beforehand would make any change easier and more palatable to the typical Japanese consumer. That's why I wouldn't view these as "new" styles displacing another, but rather a quiescent style and an active style cyclically trading places. Here's my own personal, completely unprovable pet theory on all of this: many young anime/manga creators are just one step above the fanboys who gravitate toward the newest, shiniest thing. You know, like the people on this board who receive constant derision due to their decision to latch onto and like the anime at the top of the "popular" list on the left side of this page. You will run into occasional hardasses like Miyazaki who operate solo and create free of influence, but generally the people who create the anime and manga we so love are also fans of the medium and are easily swayed by trends. Also, unlike Miyazaki, they are less autonomous now, with extensive networking and the like leading to shared design characteristics. Which can cause an interesting effect. Take Comiket, for example. You have hundreds of doujin circles and thousands of artists who are constantly creating -- and constantly observing those around them. Perhaps a doujin at the next table with a particular design aesthetic does well. Or even if it doesn't, it is perhaps perceived to be something worth emulating. It will be copied, and perhaps exaggerated/refined to some degree, and if the fans think "this is the next cool thing" ("It must be -- everyone is doing it now"), then you have the seeds of a sociological chain reaction of sorts taking place on both the creator and consumer side that will almost "push" a certain design along at both the amateur and professional levels. I think of this as design convergence and to a large degree it is almost a case of the "collective unconscious" at work. It has a type of momentum that is difficult to stop in a short period of time. It's probably no surprise that this is how a lot of cultural trends operate. As far as the most recent transition, which was the point of the original post, I couldn't guess. Mid-90s has been stated by multiple posters, which seems about right to me. But as I said earlier -- I don't think that particular design style has been eliminated -- I think it has merely gone into hiding. One of the more interesting aspects of all of this is that all of those kids of the 80s who loved growing up on HnK and the like -- THOSE are the very same people who grew up and are now giving us this very different design set. Why? Did they hit 20, wake up one morning, and say, "Hey, muscle men suck -- I'm going to draw pansies!" Unlikely. More likely their 50-year old bosses who grew up on Go Nagai are making the decisions now. I'd like to think that all of those kids of the 80s who are now working their way up through the studios and who will eventually be calling the shots will eventually release the damn testosterone that they've kept pent up for a while. Perhaps the 2010s will be the neo-muscle decade in anime. |
  |
ShaolinRibiero said: Excellent post. I was really getting tired of posts that didn't even attempt to answer the question of why, or pointed out irrelevant, contradictory arguments, such as the change in shoujo conventions (why would does this affect shounen, again?), or how the muscular build was supposed to "appeal to Westerners"...even though anime today is MUCH more heavily marketed towards the US, and has a larger audience there than it did 20 years ago. Your differing reactions to two *very* similar posts is very telling. |
| Peace through Superior Firepower! formosan said: Are you using some kind of advanced logic I don't know about? Have you decided to assign new meanings to English words? Are you just intentionally burning a straw man and knowing full well that you're changing the subject and misrepresenting a claim? |
| Suddenly remembered another facet of this evolution... Recall with me those wonderful Yaoi OVAs from the 80s. And compare their muscular manly bodies with today's slenderization. I like both styles, but I can't see why would we want to lose detail on males that are made for a female public. Therefore the overproduction of manga/anime now rings as main reason for the "change of tastes". It was not a change of tastes that powered the evolution of this art. It was the change of art that forced our tastes to evolute. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| hair got shinier and the scenes got more colorful and real looking |
| Hi to all, I'm a newbie here and just wanted to post a comment on this thread. I have actually not read through all the comments, but I found the topic so interesting that could not resist making a counter-argument. To ShaorinRibiero, Your argument is making false generalization by committing six errors as follows: Selecting particular examples in favour of your particular position: There is a huge number of mangas, which amounts to 140,000 or more works, on a wide range of genres and subgenres. Arbitrary selection would inevitably entail sampling bias. For more valid analysis, it would be better to use stratified random sampling by which you select separate random samples from each of the subgroups (in this case, the 80s/90s group and present group of sounen-martial-arts-action genre). Setting narrow and limited focus: Discussing character design only in terms of aesthetics would also be problematic. Art-style including character design is strongly inter-connected with full of a lot of elements such as artist, genre, subgenre, intended audience, art history, market, and commercialism. It is something far more complex and diverse than a mere outcome of aesthetics. You must be really careful; you are trying to find a single linear trend for the whole manga culture of non-linear diversity. Making apples-to-oranges comparison: You cannot just pick up "Fist of the Northern Star (FNS)" and "Bleach" and compare them in the same context. Their genre and intended audience are completely different. “FNS” belongs to the hard-boiled martial arts action genre, which is oriented to adult and mature male audience. “Bleach” belongs to the orthodox-shounen action genre (where muscle does not count for much in battle), which is oriented to kids. As a corollary of these differences, you find more realistic mature characters in “FNS” and more adolescent-look characters in “Bleach”. If you conduct a trend analysis on aesthetics change, you have to choose and compare the mangas of same genre and intended audience at least (or, alternatively, different manga series of a same artist). Overlooking many mangas with "masculine" characters in the present market: Art-style or character design is genre-specific in significant degree as mentioned above. If you are looking for mangas full of masculine characters, try searching in genres such as combat sports, martial arts, extreme sports, samurai, historical drama, picaresque roman, action fantasy, etc (or to put it another way, seinen manga targeting at mature male readers). You will get a vast array of results. To name few examples, "BAKI the grappler", "TAUGH", “SHAMO”, "SIGURUI", "VAGABOND", "BASILISK", "JIPANG", "SESTAS", "BOKKOU", "VINLAND SAGA", “DOROHEDORO”, "BERSERK", etc. In fact, these kind of mangas were found among shounen manga magazines in the 80s/90s. However, the manga market have become more differentiated and segmented since then; as a result, the “mature" mangas have found their niche in seinen manga magazines. In a nutshell, you are simply looking in a wrong place. Choosing limited time span ranging from 80s to present: The mangas with masculine or mature-looking characters (such as “Fist of the Northern Star) are generally regarded as using the “gekiga” art-style, which dates back to the late 60s. In the 60s, the gekiga art-style employing realistic/dramatic pictures and strong characterization was introduced with the intention of dealing with serious themes topics such as social problems, philosophical issues, human mind and emotions, etc. In contrast with manga whose readers were mainly children, Gekiga aimed at mature adult audiences and established its niche market at the time. In the 70s, an artist Kazuo Koike founded the Gekiga Sonjuku art school, which gave a long-lasting influence on many artists. Throughout the 70s and 80s, Gekiga became increasingly accepted by mainstream shonen magazines. Several sounen manga artists who vigorously employed gekiga art-style achieved great success; for example, Tetsuo Hara (“Fist of the Northern Star”), Tsukasa Houjo (“Cats Eye” and “City Hunter”). However, as manga market became increasingly differentiated and segmented in the early 90s due to the expanding readership, gekiga art-style manga gradually began to disappear from mainstream shounen magazines and started to find their niche in seinen magazines or alternative genre magazines. In my opinion, taking into the whole history of manga (1920s~) to account, gekiga art-style is rather something should be considered as anomalous; and more significantly, adolescent-look character design with big eyes and surrender body is what generally characterizes the genuine manga style. Having an ethnocentric view on aesthetics: Although someone has already mentioned to this point, your view on aesthetics is ethnocentric or masculinity-oriented. Japanese aesthetics can be explained by two phrases: “Good things come in small packages” and “Cuteness is justice”. Taking a mythical episode as an example, Yamato Takeru, a Japanese legendary prince, succeeded in defeating his enemies by dressing as a maid servant attendant at a drinking party. There is also a historical episode that Minamoto no Yoshitsune, a general of the Minamoto clan, defeated the giant warrior monk Benkei in a duel at his early age. Japanese people really love this kind of story. You can also find many examples among mangas of 50s and 60s such as “Phoenix” and “Astro-Boy” by Osamu Tezuka, “Tetsujin 28-go” by Mitsuteru Yokoyama, “Cyborg 009“ by Shotaro Ishinomori, etc. In short, the traditional hero archetype in Japan is not masculine male, but cute little boys. Note: In fact, "Fist of the Northern Star" was influenced by "Mad Max", an Australian post-apocalyptic action thriller film (1979), thereby adopting western hero archetype. For these six errors, your argument loses its validity. Thank you. |
gekigatyou said: To ShaorinRibiero, Heh. gekigatyou said: Your argument is making false generalization by committing six errors as follows: Not really. All six of your objections were answered in this topic, but your poor grasp of the English language and comprehension in general meant you missed them. I will say that your knowledge of this subject is very good, and you obviously spent time writing that post, but unfortunately, there's a significant lack of abstraction in what you wrote. Let's begin; gekigatyou said: Selecting particular examples in favour of your particular position: There is a huge number of mangas, which amounts to 140,000 or more works, on a wide range of genres and subgenres. Arbitrary selection would inevitably entail sampling bias. For more valid analysis, it would be better to use stratified random sampling by which you select separate random samples from each of the subgroups (in this case, the 80s/90s group and present group of sounen-martial-arts-action genre). I'm well aware of the large number of diverse works, which is why one of my later posts in this topic (which you admit to not having read) contained the very clear disclaimer that "obviously, with the number of works released, I'm making a great generalization". With that said, your suggestion of a random sample of any kind means you completely missed the point of the entire comparison. It's not about comparing some shitty, half-forgotten manga which never had any readers in the first place. It's about comparing the dominant styles from EXTREMELY POPULAR, major hits. So that's one supposed mistake which was simply you not understanding the argument and being ignorant about statistics. Setting narrow and limited focus: Discussing character design only in terms of aesthetics would also be problematic. Art-style including character design is strongly inter-connected with full of a lot of elements such as artist, genre, subgenre, intended audience, art history, market, and commercialism. It is something far more complex and diverse than a mere outcome of aesthetics. You must be really careful; you are trying to find a single linear trend for the whole manga culture of non-linear diversity. I'm not even sure what this has to do with anything. There's no objection here, just some random mumbling about factors other than character design. Yeah dude, well aware of that, but this specific topic is about character design, and none of the other elements you're talking about. Making apples-to-oranges comparison: You cannot just pick up "Fist of the Northern Star (FNS)" and "Bleach" and compare them in the same context. Their genre and intended audience are completely different. “FNS” belongs to the hard-boiled martial arts action genre, which is oriented to adult and mature male audience. “Bleach” belongs to the orthodox-shounen action genre (where muscle does not count for much in battle), which is oriented to kids. As a corollary of these differences, you find more realistic mature characters in “FNS” and more adolescent-look characters in “Bleach”. If you conduct a trend analysis on aesthetics change, you have to choose and compare the mangas of same genre and intended audience at least (or, alternatively, different manga series of a same artist). Oh, that's absurd. In the mid 80's, Hokuto No Ken's primary audience was little Japanese male kids. It invented the shounen genre, and is not seinen or meant for adults, as you suggest. Hell, most of the people who have watched it in the US did so when they were very young also. It's a perfectly valid argument, as both are incredibly long shounen action manga and anime that were the biggest, most popular hits of their respective generations. Overlooking many mangas with "masculine" characters in the present market: Art-style or character design is genre-specific in significant degree as mentioned above. If you are looking for mangas full of masculine characters, try searching in genres such as combat sports, martial arts, extreme sports, samurai, historical drama, picaresque roman, action fantasy, etc (or to put it another way, seinen manga targeting at mature male readers). You will get a vast array of results. To name few examples, "BAKI the grappler", "TAUGH", “SHAMO”, "SIGURUI", "VAGABOND", "BASILISK", "JIPANG", "SESTAS", "BOKKOU", "VINLAND SAGA", “DOROHEDORO”, "BERSERK", etc. Again, your lack of abstraction is telling. Yes, there are still many properties with masculine characters, but they're the minority now. WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT. Yeah, Keisuke Itagaki's Baki and Garouden are my two favorite action manga and favorite action anime, and while they're decently popular nowadays, to even compare their influence and fame to HnK in the 80s or even JoJo when it first came out is utterly insane. In fact, these kind of mangas were found among shounen manga magazines in the 80s/90s. However, the manga market have become more differentiated and segmented since then; No, this is irrelevant to this change. Both HnK and Bleach were targeted towards male children. So differentiation has nothing to do with this. as a result, the “mature" mangas have found their niche in seinen manga magazines. In a nutshell, you are simply looking in a wrong place. Except that HnK is, and always has been considered shounen, so you are simply wrong here. Choosing limited time span ranging from 80s to present: The mangas with masculine or mature-looking characters (such as “Fist of the Northern Star) are generally regarded as using the “gekiga” art-style, which dates back to the late 60s. In the 60s, the gekiga art-style employing realistic/dramatic pictures and strong characterization was introduced with the intention of dealing with serious themes topics such as social problems, philosophical issues, human mind and emotions, etc. In contrast with manga whose readers were mainly children, Gekiga aimed at mature adult audiences and established its niche market at the time. In the 70s, an artist Kazuo Koike founded the Gekiga Sonjuku art school, which gave a long-lasting influence on many artists. Throughout the 70s and 80s, Gekiga became increasingly accepted by mainstream shonen magazines. Several sounen manga artists who vigorously employed gekiga art-style achieved great success; for example, Tetsuo Hara (“Fist of the Northern Star”), Tsukasa Houjo (“Cats Eye” and “City Hunter”). Here, you are indeed correct. I read yesterday that the Japanese dude responsible for its greatest piece of media ever, "Lone Wolf and Cub", apparently had a school responsible for students, and besides the guys you mentioned, he also taught the previously mentioned Itagaki, as well as the creator of Vampire Hunter D. In other words, he was responsible for a tremendous portion of the great manga and anime of the last 25 years, and I might not even take either medium seriously as an art-form if not for his influence. However, as manga market became increasingly differentiated and segmented in the early 90s due to the expanding readership, gekiga art-style manga gradually began to disappear from mainstream shounen magazines and started to find their niche in seinen magazines or alternative genre magazines. THAT'S THE POINT!! You basically validated my entire perspective with this little paragraph! That style did indeed become marginalized, and went from shounen mainstream to niche seinen. It's hilarious that you say my "argument loses its validity", considering you just PROVED it with those words above. Thanks, I guess. |
| Maybe if we do the same with popular Japan bands and musicians from those periods of time, we can see a similar thread. Dunno why those aesthetics changes occurred, maybe someone from Japan could elucidate us in this question. |
| Eo tempore, cum tibi occuri, Mihi vita laeta fuit, Cum autem te nusquam conspexi, Eo tempore mortem cognovi |
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