Satyr_icon said: jal90 said: I don't know guys. The words revolutionary, influential and trendsetter are used here in a way that is kinda suspicious at least. I didn't mean trendsetter in a derogatory manner for the anime itself, only that some of these shows that are seen as influential didn't really bring enough to the table to deserve the merit people usually apply to them. For example, even though it was Azumangah Daioh that spawned the CGDCT genre, K-On was the one that truly changed the landscape of the genre years later, so I wouldn't call it only a trendsetter. However, in Madoka's case, all it mostly did was spawn a bunch of carbon copies mahou shoujo series going the full edge route, with a rare exception here and there. I don't know if it did a lot for the genre, rather often it seems like it only served to dumb it down, since way before Madoka the genre already had its dark bits with some being even more mature or bizarre, like Princess Tutu and Alien 9. Ah, my bad here if it looked like I was saying this. The problem I have with these terms is that I suspect they are used in a rather weird manner to reflect some kind of artistic compromise. That's what threw me off from CHC's otherwise good take on the matter, particularly on the part of moe not being revolutionary because it panders to sociological escapism (and even more particularly after bringing the example of Disney as a true revolution in animation). As for Azumanga Daioh and K-On!, I feel like this has been discussed a lot of times but I don't think it's just Azumanga Daioh and then K-On! which seems to be by the timeline you set. A number of successful shows have shaped the genre and its scope in between. Think Aria, which brought iyashikei to CGDCT narrative. Think Hidamari Sketch, which was the first of many Kirara adaptations, and the first big one. Haruhi and Lucky Star, which decodified and parodied character tropes and inspired trends themselves. All of these (and of course Azumanga Daioh and K-On!) were renowned and all of these have had a cumulative effect in changing the landscape of the genre so it's not a work of one single show or franchise. Perhaps we will see Gochiusa or Yuru Camp having a similarly big infuence in the future. |
Satyr_icon said: CHC said: Nana probably has the kind of realistically portrayed sexual-romantic relationships you want, though visually it's not focused on sex. I don't mean the focus but the naturality, even if only briefly mentioned. I haven't watched Nana so I can't tell, but both manga I mentioned portray sex as a natural thing and the characters react to the topic in a realistic way (in Horimiya there's even a joke about the girl stopping taking her contraceptive pills in a kind of "sex strike" to punish the boyfriend -- or she joking that her period was late, I don't recall exactly now, maybe both: how often do you even see stuff like that mentioned in the medium?). I know this overall shyness is a cultural thing, but it's refreshing to see it portrayed in a different way. It ends up being better than a lot of what we see in western media. Also, both of them are directed towards young audiences (a shounen and a shoujo,respectively). I forgot to add that I would expect this revolution in this demographic. Nana is a shoujo but I don't know how relevant it is in the story. And yeah, I agree with the points you made, but I think this very escapist nature of Japanese culture can be used to create more mature or at least significant works, like a lot of works with iyashikei ideals, some of which are aimed at younger audiences (like Aria and Yuru Camp). While these are the exception and not the rule and cultural escapism continues to be a extremely toxic thing, artistically Japan is miles ahead of the West's obsession with superhero movies and pointless teenager literature. Yes in Nana sex is portrayed in a casual/natural way in the sense that people do not shy away from it nor do they overly idealise/fetishise it to the point that getting fucked by their crush seems to be the ultimate meaning of their life (as in Kuzu no Honkai like you said.) Sex is just the natural thing to happen between two people who are attracted to each other. No one get particularly nervous about that. Yet Nana is also able to portray how sex is intertwined with other aspects of life, such as vanity and unplanned pregnancy. I think it's arguably the most realistic portrayal of the life of young adults in their 20s in anime. I believe it's actually not that hard to hook up or to get a boyfriend/girlfriend in Japan. There wouldn't be so many "love hotels" in Tokyo if people are really avoiding it. Most anime shows make sex looks like the most prestigious prize given only to those who endure great difficulties only because they don't want to alienate their virginal fans. Shoujo/josei manga has more real sex in them than shounen/seinen precisely because boys tend to be more easily ashamed for their own lack of sexual experience. They feel harder to identify themselves with a sexually proactive, romantically sophisticated hero. Whereas in case of shoujo the heroine is usually guided by a more sophisticated male partner. You can rarely see a sexually proactive heroine who openly takes the initiative even though shoujo heroines sometimes do get to fuck unlike shounen heroes. There are a lot of sexually proactive female characters in shoujo/josei but they don't usually get to be casted as the viewer's surrogate. It's pretty much a completely different story with other media whose viewership is less confined. Cheating and extra-marital sex are constant themes in J-drama and film. Sex is also portrayed casually with mature sophistication everywhere in literary novels like the ones written by Murakami Haruki. The only thing that stops anime from being less virginal about sex and romance is the taste of its demographic. The general ("normie") cultural climate isn't really that shy about sex. I want more naturalistically portrayed romance too, because I can no longer relate myself to those virginal characters any more as an adult. I'm less concerned about working hard to get into a relationship than the messy consequences of having got into a relationship. But it will remain a marginal thing in anime if anime continues to be an exclusive, "nerd-only" medium. Btw, have you seen Rinshi!! Ekoda-chan of this season? It's about a young woman who has a kinda messy sex life. Very refreshing. |
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jal90 said: I don't know guys. The words revolutionary, influential and trendsetter are used here in a way that is kinda suspicious at least. For example with what @CHC says about moe aesthetics being not revolutionary because they are escapist... and so? They have had an influence, they have lasted decades, and they have shaped the industry in a way that is likely to stay, one way or the other, for very long. I don't intend to use the word "revolution" leniently but you know, bringing aspects of sociological conformism to the evolution of art is using a different set of standards every time, particularly when an example of actual revolution that is shown and discussed is Disney. The same Disney that ended up using all their experimentation and theory in the 20s and 30s as a mean of testing to create appealing stuff for large audiences. Like how they used for instance the Silly Symphonies as a field to insert all the animation techniques they would later apply to their big mainstream hits. I'm not saying moe is not revolutionary because they are escapist. I'm saying they're just a market phenomenon when the taste of the demographic anime serves has changed. In case like impressionism in painting and stream-of-consciousness in literature, the artistic revolution is not a response to a changing market. They were movements that led by a group of self-conscious artistic genius who tried to lead a change of the general sensibility of the society. That's why the works of both of the moments were very difficult to the general audience to stomach at the time when they first appeared, because they completely went against their habitual way of viewing and reading. They're rightly called revolutions, as opposed to evolution, because they marked a breaking point, a discontinuity in history. I love moe SoL shows but is it really a parallel to impressionism or stream-of-consciousness? Did moe SoL take over anime because animators thought the old practice and old values were dead and should be replaced with a new one? Or is it just a recombination of elements that has long existed in manga/anime and it happened to have succeeded financially so creators decided to go with the new trend? My point is if you want the word "revolutionary" to mean anything specific, then it must involves a story about how a collective movement self-consciously breaks down an established system of practices and values, and replaces it with something that has never been seen in history before - which doesn't mean it cannot become institutionalised after the revolution (sometime institutionalisation of a new practice is exactly the point - with Disney and Tezuka). The ultimate paradigm here is the French Revolution. The word "revolutionary" shouldn't be just a more sublime synonym for words like "great", "influential", "new" or "phenomenal". A revolution must always reference its place in history. |
CHCMar 16, 2019 8:44 AM
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CHC said: jal90 said: I don't know guys. The words revolutionary, influential and trendsetter are used here in a way that is kinda suspicious at least. For example with what @CHC says about moe aesthetics being not revolutionary because they are escapist... and so? They have had an influence, they have lasted decades, and they have shaped the industry in a way that is likely to stay, one way or the other, for very long. I don't intend to use the word "revolution" leniently but you know, bringing aspects of sociological conformism to the evolution of art is using a different set of standards every time, particularly when an example of actual revolution that is shown and discussed is Disney. The same Disney that ended up using all their experimentation and theory in the 20s and 30s as a mean of testing to create appealing stuff for large audiences. Like how they used for instance the Silly Symphonies as a field to insert all the animation techniques they would later apply to their big mainstream hits. I'm not saying moe is not revolutionary because they are escapist. I'm saying they're just a market phenomenon when the taste of the demographic anime serves has changed. In case like impressionism in painting and stream-of-consciousness in literature, the artistic revolution is not a response to a changing market. They were movements that led by a group of self-conscious artistic genius who tried to lead a change of the general sensibility of the society. That's why the works of both of the moments were very difficult to the general audience to stomach at the time when they first appeared, because they completely went against their habitual way of viewing and reading. They're rightly called revolutions, as opposed to evolution, because they marked a breaking point, a discontinuity in history. I love moe SoL shows but is it really a parallel to impressionism or stream-of-consciousness? Did moe SoL take over anime because animators thought the old practice and old values were dead and should be replaced with a new one? Or is it just a recombination of elements that has long existed in manga/anime and it happened to have succeeded financially so creators decided to go with the new trend? My point is if you want the word "revolutionary" to mean anything specific, then it must involves a story about how a collective movement self-consciously breaks down an established system of practices and values, and replaces it with something that has never been seen in history before - which doesn't mean it cannot become institutionalised after the revolution (sometime institutionalisation of a new practice is exactly the point - with Disney and Tezuka). The ultimate paradigm here is the French Revolution. The word "revolutionary" shouldn't be just a more sublime synonym for words like "great", "influential", "new" or "phenomenal". A revolution must always reference its place in history. Yep and this self-consciousness is highly debatable because it's all about tracing influences. You could say for instance that the New Wave movements in cinema (particularly Nouvelle Vague in France and Nuberu Bagu in Japan) are revolutionary because they broke the rules and reinvented cinema, but where they born just by chance? No, they were the result of a larger social climate that affected many fields including art and culture, that had further political motivations and that in many other fields or places would lead to different responses. They are the consequence of both global and local changes in earlier paradigms. The point is, where do we put the limit to what is a self-conscious attempt to change the rules and a mere consequence of the social/cultural necessity in those times, because most artistic and cultural revolutions are both in a way. Moe, like many other changes, falls somewhere in the middle and whether we consider them one or the other is a matter of degree. Also, Disney was pretty much in an open competition with Fleischer Studios at its early stage. Both were clearly trying to improve their products to prevail in the market. Hence my issue if you apply artistic self-consciousness and then use this as an example of an inequivocal revolution in the industry. |
jal90Mar 16, 2019 9:10 AM
Capitalism_Hater said: You forgot Neon Genesis EvangelionRevolutionary is something that influenced titles to come, with that being said: Dragon Ball Akira Gundam |
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| Maybe a flat booty revolution? Something about accesories? Maybe hats? A new character archetype? Ex-waifu? Anything that could become trendy really. |
silent_knight98 said: Capitalism_Hater said: You forgot Neon Genesis EvangelionRevolutionary is something that influenced titles to come, with that being said: Dragon Ball Akira Gundam Wanted to add Evangelion and Lain to be honest, but they are not as big as those three when it comes to influence in my opinion |
Capitalism_Hater said: But imo Evangelion was revolutionary. It changed the anime industry. Creators started making anime in other genres too. Otherwise it was all bout battle shounen, shoujo and mecha in the past. Evangelion brought versatility in anime.silent_knight98 said: You forgot Neon Genesis Evangelion Wanted to add Evangelion and Lain to be honest, but they are not as big as those three when it comes to influence in my opinion |
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silent_knight98 said: Capitalism_Hater said: But imo Evangelion was revolutionary. It changed the anime industry. Creators started making anime in other genres too. Otherwise it was all bout battle shounen, shoujo and mecha in the past. Evangelion brought versatility in anime.Wanted to add Evangelion and Lain to be honest, but they are not as big as those three when it comes to influence in my opinion You are right, I guess. Going to add Evangelion. |
| Evangelion did not popularize some kind of "psychological" anime movement (who cares about RahXephon these days?), but it does have some of the most iconic tsundere and kuudere characters that are still at the forefronts today. |
| @jal90 I mentioned Azumangah and K-On more as general landmarks. There sure some shows that helped build the genre or could even be considered just as important landmarks (Lucky Star a strong contender). And yeah, I think Yuru Camp can at least be considered a big landmark because of how it deviated of the rest of the genre. While it has all the escapist characteristics of the genre its successful paradoxical nature of encouraging people to get out of their rooms was not something I had seen done before (Yama no Susume did that too but it hadn't the same impact). The manga is also a remarkable piece of work by itself. I don't know how it'll hold on the long haul but I'd sure pay to see more stuff like it (particularly a farming anime in the vein of Harvest Moon/Stardew Valley). @CHC I guess I have to get around to watching Nana. I've been delaying it for years now. I didn't mean shyness of the people, but rather how the culture itself perceives the subject. Maybe it's because I'm seeing through the lens of my own culture, but even if love hotels are a part of everyday life in Japan they still seem to be a discreet existence, like something that exists only at the back of people's head as a subculture, while here they have massive billboards boasting their business. The way Japan deal with their sex crimes is not a bright sign of how it is perceived in their culture, either. Also, when you talk about shoujo, what shows/manga are you referring to exactly (apart from Nana)? I agree when you talk about josei, but I have a completely different impression of the one you give of shoujo. I often see people discussing how modern shoujo at least seems to often glare over the subject. I don't know a lot of old shoujo to confirm that. I know that to be the case for novels since they are often to an adult audience, but I don't really know anything about doramas. Are they often targeted to a younger audience? I saw some people mentioning it. I rarely follow up with seasonals but maybe I'll take a look. |
Satyr_iconMar 16, 2019 11:06 AM
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Cabron said: Gotta stop looking at it from a Western perspective. OnionKnightRises said: Psychological with mecha was already done way before Eva was a thing, it just popularized it.If a show is so iconic that it inspires many shows, or even has copycats attempting to steal the show's formula, then it's revolutionary to me because it's changed the landscape just by existing. Specifically the one that came to my mind is Neon Genesis Evangelion (or it's predecessor, Gunbuster). So many shows are obviously inspired by NGE, anime was not the same after it came out. Without it, the psychological genre wouldn't nearly be as popular, nor would it be inserted with other genres quite as often, with NGE proving that blending psychology with another genre like mecha could produce some hefty results. Yeah but it wasn't nearly as well executed, at least from what I've seen and heard. You don't have to be completely original to revolutionize something |
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silent_knight98 said: What's the versatility that Eva brought?Capitalism_Hater said: But imo Evangelion was revolutionary. It changed the anime industry. Creators started making anime in other genres too. Otherwise it was all bout battle shounen, shoujo and mecha in the past. Evangelion brought versatility in anime.Wanted to add Evangelion and Lain to be honest, but they are not as big as those three when it comes to influence in my opinion mecharobot said: What about Rahxephon?Evangelion did not popularize some kind of "psychological" anime movement (who cares about RahXephon these days?), but it does have some of the most iconic tsundere and kuudere characters that are still at the forefronts today. OnionKnightRises said: Well executed? Maybe, though debatable. Can you tell me where you saw or read this?Cabron said: Gotta stop looking at it from a Western perspective. Psychological with mecha was already done way before Eva was a thing, it just popularized it. Yeah but it wasn't nearly as well executed, at least from what I've seen and heard. You don't have to be completely original to revolutionize something True, but I wasn't trying to imply that you have to be completely original. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| @Satyr_icon I think outdoorsy/rural iyashikei has been a trend for a while, with Non Non Biyori, Flying witch, Yama no Susume, Barakamon... The genre has always had this fixation for nature and landscapes. I really don't know what specific new aspect would Yuru Camp add, even if it's successful enough to be an influence. If I had to speculate, I'd say it will have to do with the way it combines natural and urban settings, nature and technology, etc., which seems at least slightly different from the "escape from modernity" narrative that contemplative outdoorsy stuff is often framed as. |
Cabron said: silent_knight98 said: What's the versatility that Eva brought?But imo Evangelion was revolutionary. It changed the anime industry. Creators started making anime in other genres too. Otherwise it was all bout battle shounen, shoujo and mecha in the past. Evangelion brought versatility in anime. mecharobot said: What about Rahxephon?Evangelion did not popularize some kind of "psychological" anime movement (who cares about RahXephon these days?), but it does have some of the most iconic tsundere and kuudere characters that are still at the forefronts today. OnionKnightRises said: Well executed? Maybe, though debatable. Can you tell me where you saw or read this?Yeah but it wasn't nearly as well executed, at least from what I've seen and heard. You don't have to be completely original to revolutionize something True, but I wasn't trying to imply that you have to be completely original. Just a smattering of comments here or there, most shows I've heard that predated Evangelion just gets forgotten, with some exceptions. Which is half the reason why I picked Evangelion, because it's the most memorable, at least to the majority of the community. NGE's effect on the anime industry hasn't been forgotten. I could be dead wrong and some anime before NGE did what it did better and NGE just lucked out with it's timing. |
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| @Cabron After Evangelion, creators got inspired to make different types of stuffs. They realised that anime can be lot more than battle shounens/mecha/shoujo? Sure, there might have been other psychological-drama shows(i dont know accurately though) before EVA but like others said, this one became popular and inspiration. So imo EVA did bring versatility. Although u can argue that whether it was direct or indirect. |
silent_knight98Mar 17, 2019 1:16 AM
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| Different art style, Different story, Different message, Different overall. Not capitalizing an over saturated market. |
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| In 2011 the revolutionary anime to me was "Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica" (Not that I've seen it) 2012 - JoJo no Kimyou na Bouken (I only managed up until ep 12) 2013 - Shingeki no Kyoujin 2014 - Tokyo Ghoul 2015 - One Punch man (I'm sad to say) 2016 - Mob Psycho 100 (again I'm sad) 2017 - Made in Abyss or Isekai shokudou or Houseki no Kuni (I'm confused) 2018 - Zombieland saga (I dropped it after the rap ep) There are the popular scale, the top (best) scale and the dark horse scale. |
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| We don't need revolution. We just need a bit better quality. Just bring back the ideas from those golden anime of old times, handle them properly and everybody will be happy |
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| I would consider Sword Art Online somewhat revolutionary as it sparked the beginning of a now popular Isekai genre. |
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| a show that either revolutionised a genre, built upon what anime is capable of or opened anime up to a wider audience. I'd say the original Mobile Suit Gundam, Sword Art Online, Fullmetal Alchemist/Brotherhood, Death Note and One Punch Man all apply to one or more of these categories |
| an anime that manages to have both plot and plot |
| something that exceeds boku no pico |
Satyr_icon said: @CHC I guess I have to get around to watching Nana. I've been delaying it for years now. I didn't mean shyness of the people, but rather how the culture itself perceives the subject. Maybe it's because I'm seeing through the lens of my own culture, but even if love hotels are a part of everyday life in Japan they still seem to be a discreet existence, like something that exists only at the back of people's head as a subculture, while here they have massive billboards boasting their business. The way Japan deal with their sex crimes is not a bright sign of how it is perceived in their culture, either. Also, when you talk about shoujo, what shows/manga are you referring to exactly (apart from Nana)? I agree when you talk about josei, but I have a completely different impression of the one you give of shoujo. I often see people discussing how modern shoujo at least seems to often glare over the subject. I don't know a lot of old shoujo to confirm that. I know that to be the case for novels since they are often to an adult audience, but I don't really know anything about doramas. Are they often targeted to a younger audience? I saw some people mentioning it. I rarely follow up with seasonals but maybe I'll take a look. Yes I agree with your observation on Japanese sex culture. I think it's basically part of the tatemai/honne culture of Japan. Sex is not viewed as an indecent thing to do in private but an indecent thing to show your strong interest in it to the people around you. So unlike Western conservatism which usually link sex with the idea of sin, Japanese appear to be conservative about sex even though they tend not to think there's anything wrong about sex itself. Japanese tends to cover their private life with a presentable image like they cover their body with fashionable clothes. Sex is just something that they keep it to themselves. It's very different than the American culture where openly talk about sex is part of a progressive culture that try to improve our sexual experience. In Japan by contrast, generally they never improve things through having a debate, so they probably don't see the value for allowing sex entering into the public consciousness rather than to remain "underground". It does make things like battling against the toxic elements within the sex culture (like sex crimes as you mention) much harder because people avoid having a public discussion on it. But I think they do slowly develop other non-American ways to advance social progress that work in the Japanese cultural context. About Shoujo the references I can think of right now is Paradise Kiss, Orange, Kimi ni Todoke, etc. In those anime the heroines usually take a passive role while the heroes were there to lead the timid heroines out of their comfort zone. Paradise Kiss is the most explicit about this trope (and it's explicit on sex too). I'm aware that there're a lot exceptions like Lovely Comlex and Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou, but then even though the wild, unintelligent underdog Shounen heroes are probably also, in reality, not as plentiful as the Shounen heroes who do not fall into the same trope, I think it still says something about how the creators try to make the hero/heroine a self-insertable character for the targeted demographic. J-drama usually target family audience (or those who have the controller?). I think after 2200 the programme could have more less family-friendly content. Shows like Hirugao is all the way through about married women finding excitement through cheating with younger guys. But they're rarely, if not never, visually explicit. |
CHCMar 18, 2019 8:15 AM
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| Well a revolutionary anime would be Revolutionary Girl Utena, at least that series was quite different! However, it's quite difficult to make an anime series too way out of the box, or it would be too weird, like Cat Soup I suppose. |
take a guess. nah but seriously, watch this show. it really is revolutionary |
| I don't think we'll see many more "revolutionary" anime as the vast majority of genres have had their "revolutionary" anime that to this date defines the genres. You can say the same for music genres, most of the "revolutionary" musicians that defined the genres are a thing of the past and we probably won't see many more in our lifetimes. But there's no need for anything "revolutionary" |
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