Would you compare Western young adult novels and Japanese light novels

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Jun 2014

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VitaminCaim said:

dream_eater1012 said:

Neither of those are YA novel series, though. At least, it doesn't seem that they are.

its labeled one in my library so I'm basing it off that

They're labeled as adult fiction at my library.

Goodreads also doesn't list the authors as writing in the YA genre.

Jan 22, 2015 12:44 AM

#54

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Jan 2013

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Whoopsies, I'm wrong, Guin Saga is a light novel. Or novel. Difficult to tell with how much of an oxymoron it is. Some sites call it light novel, some call it novel. Idk, when I read it, it wasn't particularly "light" but that's probably because I couldn't tell its format since I was reading it word document

PeenusWeenusCaimJan 22, 2015 5:49 AM

Jan 22, 2015 12:55 AM

#55

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Jan 2013

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dream_eater1012 said:

VitaminCaim said:

its labeled one in my library so I'm basing it off that

They're labeled as adult fiction at my library.

Goodreads also doesn't list the authors as writing in the YA genre.

Maybe because they were made without a specific demographic to pander to in mind? I consider it to be young adult fiction and I find it via young adult section

Jan 22, 2015 1:40 AM

#56

Zefyris

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That could be an interesting thread if peoples here actually knew better LN so that their answer aren't clouded with wrong infos, too bad.
FYI, Light novels doesn't automatically means "with picture" (although most of them have at least 2 or 3, and lots of them have between 10 and 15), it doesn't automatically means "small books" (most of them are between 270 and 350, yes, but quite a good amount is above 500. Furthermore, they are often separated in more volumes than their western counterpart, so it's more of a difference of packaging than difference of content here, the industry prefer publishing them in smaller books cheaper to buy and easy to carry around in subways and the like), and doesn't automatically means "otaku pandering" (far from it, actually), doesn't automatically means "with a self insert character" (don't take SAO as the LN standard, that's idiotic) , and while there is more "spaces" between sentences in japanese, bear in mind that there is NO space between words in Japanese as well. So when a page is a single paragraph in Japanese, the amount of space is actually zero, or almost. Compare this with a page in english, and come back afterward.

@ VitaminCaim,

And Kyoukaisenjou no Horizon has gone above 2 millions words since quite a while (it's above 15k pages currently...), and will raise its count again by quite a bit in the following months since 3 more books will be released in the next 5 months.

Also, laughing at people when they say that books above 1k pages are big is laughable. Of course books above 1000 are big. That's the size of a small dictionary for fucking sake. The fact that some books are even bigger than that doesn't change the fact that most of them are below. And if the average size of a novel is quite below that, this means that 1k page is quite abve the average size and therefore that is, per se, big.

Trying so hard to deny what others says is a pain to watch, seriously.

Jan 22, 2015 2:02 AM

#57

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That's a question that has also occured to me and I'd like to know people's opinions. I can't contribute too much, sadly, since I read books of neither of these genres.
I suspected that the main difference would be the format and the mood. While popular YA novels seem to be pretentious and like to address (or, more precisely, think that they address) at least one social or political problem, LNs seem to focus more on making their readers feel better - i.e. on fanservice and pandering (I don't mean it in a bad way - maybe it's better than false thoughtfulness). But both of these seem to have a self-insert character, romantization, plotholes and quirky worlds.
But I don't know if I am right, of course. Nor do I plan to learn by personal reading experience.

Btw, I don't think that SOIaF should be considered YA. It's fantasy (probably, dark fantasy). Fantasy and YA have common ground, but fantasy has been viewed separately for ages.
And books with page count above 1000 are indeed long. I am a fast reader, but I dislike novels this long - few can hold your attention for so many pages.

Jan 22, 2015 2:21 AM

#58

Amiluhur

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BurningSpirit said:
And many anime haven't fully covered the content of the source material. It depends, if a series if popular enough, Light Novel translation goes ahead of anime

Rather than that, i feel the biggest problem I find with a lot of light novel series including the ever popular Sword Art Online is that they really do have 1 or 2 volume premises. Then because of commercial reasons the plot has to extended in an inorganic manner endlessly until they finally decide it's time to end the story (That is if they even have an end in sight).

Jan 22, 2015 3:30 AM

#59

Zefyris

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Amiluhur said:

Rather than that, i feel the biggest problem I find with a lot of light novel series including the ever popular Sword Art Online is that they really do have 1 or 2 volume premises. Then because of commercial reasons the plot has to extended in an inorganic manner endlessly until they finally decide it's time to end the story (That is if they even have an end in sight).

That's actually rare. like I said, stop thinking that SAO is representative of light novels as a whole. For starters, 98% of LN don't sell enough for them to have their sales influencing an extension of the plot to milk it. There's actually more LN being interrupted before their ends because of poor sales than the contrary.

deadoptimist said:

I suspected that the main difference would be the format and the mood..

Format is different definitely, as I said above, since most of the LN have the "cheap price" and "easy to carry around" idea in mind when they choose where to cut the story in each volume. While there are huge exceptions like KyouHora talked above, for most LN, if the story as a whole is 1200 pages long, they will rather cut it in 4 books of 300 pages each or 3 books of 400 pages each with a price of 3.5E-4,5 Euros each rather than having a huge ass book making 1200 pages than you won't be able to carry around easily, and that will represent a higher investment to buy (on he long run, they make more money like thise too, since buying 3 small books of 400 pages cost more than buying one big of 1200 usually).
The mood now... No, I don't see what you mean. Mood is very different from one LN to another. Fanservice and pandering isn't especially a requirement to be a LN, either.

both of these seem to have a self-insert character, romantization, plotholes and quirky worlds.

Not really. This depends of the title heavily. Especially for plotholes, that's not a feature lol, any type of book in any country in the world has books with plotholes. that's just the author being unable to avoid them, not a characteristic of LN or YA novels.

Jan 22, 2015 6:05 AM

#60

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Jan 2013

13743

Zefyris said:
That could be an interesting thread if peoples here actually knew better LN so that their answer aren't clouded with wrong infos, too bad.
FYI, Light novels doesn't automatically means "with picture" (although most of them have at least 2 or 3, and lots of them have between 10 and 15), it doesn't automatically means "small books" (most of them are between 270 and 350, yes, but quite a good amount is above 500. Furthermore, they are often separated in more volumes than their western counterpart, so it's more of a difference of packaging than difference of content here, the industry prefer publishing them in smaller books cheaper to buy and easy to carry around in subways and the like), and doesn't automatically means "otaku pandering" (far from it, actually), doesn't automatically means "with a self insert character" (don't take SAO as the LN standard, that's idiotic) , and while there is more "spaces" between sentences in japanese, bear in mind that there is NO space between words in Japanese as well. So when a page is a single paragraph in Japanese, the amount of space is actually zero, or almost. Compare this with a page in english, and come back afterward.

@ VitaminCaim,

And Kyoukaisenjou no Horizon has gone above 2 millions words since quite a while (it's above 15k pages currently...), and will raise its count again by quite a bit in the following months since 3 more books will be released in the next 5 months.

Also, laughing at people when they say that books above 1k pages are big is laughable. Of course books above 1000 are big. That's the size of a small dictionary for fucking sake. The fact that some books are even bigger than that doesn't change the fact that most of them are below. And if the average size of a novel is quite below that, this means that 1k page is quite abve the average size and therefore that is, per se, big.

Trying so hard to deny what others says is a pain to watch, seriously.

1k pages is not big. Dictionaries are A LOT more than 1k pages if you change the font to what, a reasonable font of 12''? Light novels are light, hence the name "light".

A novel is a long narrative, normally in prose, which describes fictional characters and events, usually in the form of a sequential story.
They are automatically big, but in a standard of its own, not big.

I have yet to find a single Japanese LN that, when translated to English, would take more text than the table of contents in the Hobbit. Also, Shit in the Middle above 2 million words? ABAHAHABAHABABHAHAHhhHhhh

Also SAO is the standard. I laugh at you

Jan 22, 2015 6:29 AM

#61

Zefyris

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8019

It's far above 2 millions words already. To reach 2 millions with 15k+ pages it justs need 8 words per column of text in average , whereas it has far more than this. You fail at math as well, as I see.
Deal with it, seriously.

And 1k page for a book is 1) big 2) useless as it's better to have 2 books with 500 pages instead, easier to carry around for bookworms like me. 6,5 cm books like some of KyouHora are actually inconvenient on that point. It's funny for a while to have such bricks in your hand, but that's about all the good point I can find to editions publishing stuff without cutting in several volumes (well, KyouHora is a bit of another problem, they are ALREADY cutting each book written by the author in 3, the problem is that they initially have up to 2600+ pages per "volume", so even cut in three, that's still a brick). Just why the hell are you so desperate to try to prove that "your books are bigger than mine" anyway? As if the length had anything to do with quality to begin with...

Oh, and before labeling something "shit", try to actually find something with a more impressive world building. As such, it has more value as a title just with this (and that's far from its only good point) than most of your favorite books, you know. Because right now, you just sounds so desperate to win a discussion on an Internet board. Which, like I said earlier, just looks painfully pitiful.

Also, the hobbit. Seriously, was that supposed to be an example of a long story? ;x

ZefyrisJan 22, 2015 6:42 AM

Jan 22, 2015 7:20 AM

#62

DateYutaka

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Mar 2011

25074

VitaminCaim said:

Zefyris said:
That could be an interesting thread if peoples here actually knew better LN so that their answer aren't clouded with wrong infos, too bad.
FYI, Light novels doesn't automatically means "with picture" (although most of them have at least 2 or 3, and lots of them have between 10 and 15), it doesn't automatically means "small books" (most of them are between 270 and 350, yes, but quite a good amount is above 500. Furthermore, they are often separated in more volumes than their western counterpart, so it's more of a difference of packaging than difference of content here, the industry prefer publishing them in smaller books cheaper to buy and easy to carry around in subways and the like), and doesn't automatically means "otaku pandering" (far from it, actually), doesn't automatically means "with a self insert character" (don't take SAO as the LN standard, that's idiotic) , and while there is more "spaces" between sentences in japanese, bear in mind that there is NO space between words in Japanese as well. So when a page is a single paragraph in Japanese, the amount of space is actually zero, or almost. Compare this with a page in english, and come back afterward.

@ VitaminCaim,

And Kyoukaisenjou no Horizon has gone above 2 millions words since quite a while (it's above 15k pages currently...), and will raise its count again by quite a bit in the following months since 3 more books will be released in the next 5 months.

Also, laughing at people when they say that books above 1k pages are big is laughable. Of course books above 1000 are big. That's the size of a small dictionary for fucking sake. The fact that some books are even bigger than that doesn't change the fact that most of them are below. And if the average size of a novel is quite below that, this means that 1k page is quite abve the average size and therefore that is, per se, big.

Trying so hard to deny what others says is a pain to watch, seriously.

1k pages is not big. Dictionaries are A LOT more than 1k pages if you change the font to what, a reasonable font of 12''? Light novels are light, hence the name "light".

A novel is a long narrative, normally in prose, which describes fictional characters and events, usually in the form of a sequential story.
They are automatically big, but in a standard of its own, not big.

I have yet to find a single Japanese LN that, when translated to English, would take more text than the table of contents in the Hobbit. Also, Shit in the Middle above 2 million words? ABAHAHABAHABABHAHAHhhHhhh

Also SAO is the standard. I laugh at you

guin saga that is a light novel iv asked about to people and guin is a light novel that is the standard along with slayers light novels form the 90's SAO is never ging to the standard

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Jan 22, 2015 7:28 AM

#63

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13743

:/
I can't believe you took all the bullshit I said
Light novels are shorter than novels because they're supposed to be "light". Hence, the term "Light Novel". But of course, when you make a series of light novels, it will inarguably be longer than other novels. 1 duck is smaller than a lion but 100 ducks isn't. Also, light novels are a style of writing, young adult is a demographic. If anything, most light novels can be considered young adult fiction. To compare them is wrong, completely wrong, this thread though - Comedy

Jan 22, 2015 7:30 AM

#64

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Zefyris said:
The mood now... No, I don't see what you mean. Mood is very different from one LN to another. Fanservice and pandering isn't especially a requirement to be a LN, either.

both of these seem to have a self-insert character, romantization, plotholes and quirky worlds.

Not really. This depends of the title heavily. Especially for plotholes, that's not a feature lol, any type of book in any country in the world has books with plotholes. that's just the author being unable to avoid them, not a characteristic of LN or YA novels.

Abut plotholes - It's just that it seems to me that YA novels often show worlds, that are not very consistent, and are in generally not so concerned with believability and explanations.

But I won't argue that I am prejudiced and don't know much about the topic. I mean, I think that everybody must read whatever he or she likes (I read manga for goddamn sake), but I, personally, am wary of lighter types of literature aside form comics.

Since you are knowledgeable about the subject, could you recommend a few serious LN titles - ones without self-insert character, harem and pandering? With current situation with translations it's unlikely that I will be able to read them, but it'd be nice to know the names, at least.

Jan 22, 2015 7:36 AM

#65

DateYutaka

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25074

VitaminCaim said:
:/
I can't believe you took all the bullshit I said
Light novels are shorter than novels because they're supposed to be "light". Hence, the term "Light Novel". But of course, when you make a series of light novels, it will inarguably be longer than other novels. 1 duck is smaller than a lion but 100 ducks isn't. Also, light novels are a style of writing, young adult is a demographic. If anything, most light novels can be considered young adult fiction. To compare them is wrong, completely wrong, this thread though - Comedy

i back you up in my own odd way cuase the mondenr day ln cannot be cuase there base m ot much on Meta idels while the ones on maentond like all the ones made in the 90's like boogiepop slayers ect were closeer ot Wesern ya fiction

cause they did not rely on meta

thats the infulance that isin and a few orther ln makers hve had on that from od stry telling in Japan

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Jan 22, 2015 8:38 AM

#66

Syndiciate

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4892

Nope. Especially because I haven't read either.

Jan 22, 2015 9:25 AM

#67

Kreion

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654

deadoptimist said:

Zefyris said:
The mood now... No, I don't see what you mean. Mood is very different from one LN to another. Fanservice and pandering isn't especially a requirement to be a LN, either.

Not really. This depends of the title heavily. Especially for plotholes, that's not a feature lol, any type of book in any country in the world has books with plotholes. that's just the author being unable to avoid them, not a characteristic of LN or YA novels.

Abut plotholes - It's just that it seems to me that YA novels often show worlds, that are not very consistent, and are in generally not so concerned with believability and explanations.

But I won't argue that I am prejudiced and don't know much about the topic. I mean, I think that everybody must read whatever he or she likes (I read manga for goddamn sake), but I, personally, am wary of lighter types of literature aside form comics.

Since you are knowledgeable about the subject, could you recommend a few serious LN titles - ones without self-insert character, harem and pandering? With current situation with translations it's unlikely that I will be able to read them, but it'd be nice to know the names, at least.

How do you define a self-insert character? I could name a character who I would argue is relateable to the audience but you might call it a self-insert character. Of course they do exist and are more prominent in YA fiction in both the west and east...but there are a lot of characters who - at least in the first novel - are quite generic. I would argue that true self-insert characters are pretty much limited to harems regardless.

As for series without any harem, 'pandering' or self-insert? Durarara springs to mind. Yahari is odd as I think it's a romcom rather than a harem and the main character is obviously designed to appeal to loners - but in reality people are deluding themselves if they think they are actually like him, as his mindset is very specific and he's well aware of the problems within...

Hyouka is defined as a novel but is clearly YA fiction so Japan does have YA fiction which aren't light novels...LN's are almost more a style of writing which is focused on speech and ease of reading. If you don't like the style there's no reason to read them...

Jan 22, 2015 9:31 AM

#68

goodshitgoOdshit

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Dec 2013

10536

I read neither. Though Hunger Games is at least enjoyable and good ( meh... ) in a way, a lot of light novels ( judging from the anime adaptations ) are complete trash, unless the anime butchers them that much. Though there are some good LNs, not saying all of them are bad.

Jan 22, 2015 10:34 AM

#69

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deadoptimist said:
While popular YA novels seem to be pretentious and like to address (or, more precisely, think that they address) at least one social or political problem,

Some do. Not all of them. I don't think Twilight did anything of that sort. Pretty Little Liars and Vampire Diaries don't do that either, but they have successful TV show adaptations.

LNs seem to focus more on making their readers feel better - i.e. on fanservice and pandering (I don't mean it in a bad way - maybe it's better than false thoughtfulness).

Some do, some don't.

But I don't know if I am right, of course.

If you don't know much about the topic, why comment?

Fantasy and YA have common ground, but fantasy has been viewed separately for ages.

There are plenty of YA fantasy books out there. They just might not be quite as long as some kind of epic.

Since you are knowledgeable about the subject, could you recommend a few serious LN titles - ones without self-insert character, harem and pandering? With current situation with translations it's unlikely that I will be able to read them, but it'd be nice to know the names, at least.

Jan 22, 2015 11:23 AM

#70

emobuttercup

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616

FGAU1912 said:

emoblossom123 said:

Harry Potter (But I think that's british)
Hunger Games
Twilight
Divergent
Marked
Maze Runner

one of them is a rip of japanese manga
Harry potter is kids book
Twilight is shit

I understand you saying something about HP, but what do the other two have to do with anything? They're still bestsellers for teens no matter what quality they are.

I'd go with emobubbles, but someone else already had it, damn bastard.

Jan 22, 2015 11:50 AM

#71

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Jul 2014

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dream_eater1012 said:
If you don't know much about the topic, why comment?

1. I am reading this topic anyway, since I am intrigued by both phenomena.
2. I got some impressions from speaking with people, reading blogs, watching adaptations, reading some things of the YA type (and I also tried to read the translation of Mahouka). I want to know whether they're wrong or right.
3. I wanna provoke an active discussion.
4. I want to comment in this thread.
I dislike this question, to be honest. It's not that I am disrespectful or do any harm, even by being wrong. I've tried to express that I wrote my two comments in purely conversational tone. And since this thread is on its 73rd post, when I write this, it's not like it is bursting at seams.

Other than that thanks for the informative answer, as always.

dream_eater1012 said:

deadoptimist said:
While popular YA novels seem to be pretentious and like to address (or, more precisely, think that they address) at least one social or political problem,

Some do. Not all of them. I don't think Twilight did anything of that sort. Pretty Little Liars and Vampire Diaries don't do that either, but they have successful TV show adaptations.

I've happened to read Twilight, and it did have opposing factions, problem of coexistence and acceptance, but I meant things like The Host, Divergent, Hunger Games, Ender's Game. It just seems that many of the most populsr YA books have the young hero solve some major problem, that nobody before could solve.

dream_eater1012 said:
Some do, some don't.

Can't talk about a genre or style without a certain level of generalization.

dream_eater1012 said:
There are plenty of YA fantasy books out there. They just might not be quite as long as some kind of epic.

That's what I meant, yeah.

Kreion said:
How do you define a self-insert character? I could name a character who I would argue is relateable to the audience but you might call it a self-insert character.

I may be wrong about the term... Though I'be always used it this way.
I mean a character that is easy and pleasant to relate to. A misunderstood but kind youth without any strong features (besides being likeable) to alienate readers - something like that. Amorphous enough to be confy, attractive enough to want to be.

Jan 22, 2015 12:35 PM

#72

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1583

deadoptimist said:

dream_eater1012 said:

Some do. Not all of them. I don't think Twilight did anything of that sort. Pretty Little Liars and Vampire Diaries don't do that either, but they have successful TV show adaptations.

I've happened to read Twilight, and it did have opposing factions, problem of coexistence and acceptance, but I meant things like The Host, Divergent, Hunger Games, Ender's Game. It just seems that many of the most populsr YA books have the young hero solve some major problem, that nobody before could solve.

Yeah, I suppose that does happen. But to be fair, the protagonist is the protagonist for a reason; they're the one that's important to tell the story. The stories probably wouldn't be as interested if all the action was off-screen.

Keep in mind also that YA novels do deal with serious issues because they relate to what teens may face. YA novels sometimes deal with things like rape, sex, peer pressure, eating disorders, suicide, self-esteem, family matters, romance in general, and other stuff because they have a lot to do with identity. YA novels in this day and age may also have more of a political backdrop just because that's what's popular. Even if they make a statement of some sort, they generally are just made in good fun.

dream_eater1012 said:
Some do, some don't.

Can't talk about a genre or style without a certain level of generalization.

But do you know enough about LNs (and YA novels, if you mean the topic as a whole) to make any sort of generalizations?

Jan 22, 2015 1:04 PM

#73

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dream_eater1012 said:
Yeah, I suppose that does happen. But to be fair, the protagonist is the protagonist for a reason; they're the one that's important to tell the story. The stories probably wouldn't be as interested if all the action was off-screen.

Keep in mind also that YA novels do deal with serious issues because they relate to what teens may face. YA novels sometimes deal with things like rape, sex, peer pressure, eating disorders, suicide, self-esteem, family matters, romance in general, and other stuff because they have a lot to do with identity. YA novels in this day and age may also have more of a political backdrop just because that's what's popular. Even if they make a statement of some sort, they generally are just made in good fun.

Well, I can't really complain about "the chosen one" protag, despite not liking this type of stories. It's way too common even outside the YA. But I strongly disapprove of plots, where a complex problem is miraculously solved, because one person could understand another through power of love. I mean, I think that oversimplification of social and political problems is very wrong. Like the stuff with overthrowing a corrupt system and everybody instantly living happily ever after. Aside from being my pet peeve, it seems to be not too good for education.
But I know that there is another point of view. My friend once too told me that she thinks its ok, because it at least makes people think about stuff like that, and thinking is important. I am still unsure if I will support this pov, but I can understand it.

dream_eater1012 said:
But do you know enough about LNs (and YA novels, if you mean the topic as a whole) to make any sort of generalizations?

Nope, but the argument about the novels of said types not being entirely similar won't get us anywhere. Of course, not every novel has all the features. The things I was interested in is whether some things applied to the majority of YA and LN or at least to a big portion of them. It's just that I think that it is very curious that at the same moment lighter, easier to read literature becomes popular in two most powerful popular cultures of the world.

Anyway, since my questions are not welcome, I won't push it. I hoped for some insights, but it's no use, if people become defensive about their interests instead.

deadoptimistJan 22, 2015 1:08 PM

Jan 22, 2015 1:43 PM

#74