Monogatari Series: Second Season
LonelyWizard said: No,you made yourself clear,but maybe i didnt make myself...I am saying that it would be weird Not feeling something... Senjougahara hates Kaiki,she clearly and genuinely hates him...But there was a time she didnt hate him...If you think some feelings like hate,love can completely disappear without a trace it means you never felt those...She once believed him,thought him as her prince that will save him,admired him,maybe loved him...And she cant completely erase those memories,she tried to erase them(giving those to crab) but Araragi saved her,he made it possible for Senjougahara to accept her memories,feelings as a whole(good ones and bad ones)...Not forgetting those feelings doesnt make her a weak human,in fact it makes her stronger,more human than you think... I thought first arc of Bakemonogatari made it clear what Nisio Isin thinks abut that stuff but seems like i was wrong...People are not beings that should and could forget their past...They must accept it instead of lying to themselves... When i mentioned Hanekawa please dont compare her with Kaiki...i meant AraragixHanekawa relationship and KaikixSenjougahara relationship (past time,not present) those were pretty similar and if you tell Senjougahara to forget those after everything she went through to be whole again,to get her "weight" back, she would kill you... Btw yes you are missing some stuff from novel but its irrelevant,im talking just based on my impression of anime series...I think that you guys just forgot all the development of Senjougahara throughout the whole series and didnt understand the main point of the anime,every arc has some deeper meaning that you should keep in mind... Weird Not feeling something? what!? someone betrayed you, not just talked behind your back, and thought you're stupid, but completely destroyed you... BETRAYED you... Betrayal is one of the worst feelings a human can feel, if not the worst, it's even beyond just 'hate'... If anything, it's weird that she DID show something other than hate, no matter what was the situation before was... Love can turn to complete Hate pretty quickly. I am a strong willed person, (I can say that), and at least I know what I am capable of... If I decide to despise someone like that, and I know that I CAN, I will, completely hate him. I wouldn't be able to live with myself If I showed something towards them, because I'd be really that weak... are you that weak of a person? still show something for someone who betrayed you? Now.. Ignore everything I've said... considering that I have a personality close to that of person with a God complex. Senjougahara is a Strong person, I am sure she wouldn't break that easily... but, as a human, one can be weak sometimes, and let's say that she did 'feel' something for like Kaiki... wouldn't she totally hate the fact that she did? Why the HECK would she Flirt then? WHY? giving the fact that her relationship with Kaiki is complicated and that I didn't feel like that towards another person... I can't say that it's impossible to not feel something... but If she felt something, she shouldn't accept it...again... why did she flirt? It looks like she completely surrendered to her feelings, just because she felt something... that's not weakness as a human... that's weakness as a person, a weakness in her character... I don't know if I will be able to love a character like that... I can accept human weaknesses, but not something like that... Another thing.. if she did feel something, she should at least... she should accept that she wasn't capable of not feeling something... (not accept meaning; embrace your feelings, go date Kaiki) but accept her weakness; that she was unable to... and tell Araragi about it, be honest, because even though it's not 'actual' cheating... it's still very close... somewhat... that's why I want an entire arc about how Senjougahara told Araragi the truth XD what I hate the most is the fact that the relationship between Kaiki and Senjougahara is shown to be so complicated, and big yet we didn't see anything nearly that big between Araragi and Senjougahara; it's annoying... Kaiki x Senjougahara is like a black sun, while Senjougahara x Araragi is like a small torch XD although I have absolutely no doubt in my heart that Senjougahara is completely and irrevocably in love with Araragi XD EDIT: I think I covered that point of view of yours now... but also you said LonelyWizard said: When i mentioned Hanekawa please dont compare her with Kaiki...i meant AraragixHanekawa relationship and KaikixSenjougahara relationship (past time,not present) those were pretty similar and if you tell Senjougahara to forget those after everything she went through to be whole again,to get her "weight" back, she would kill you... Well, I never said she should forget everything... what I wanted/meant was for you to achieve an objective point of view... to be able to judge and look at everything objectively... actually if she were to look at what is going on in Koi, she'd be disgusted of what was going on... not because she went to talk to him since he was her last resort/option/even savior, but because she flirted, talked to him way more 'freely?' than she should, and in a way very similar to that when she talks to her lover Araragi... and what felt worst of all, she was being a tsundere about certain stuff at certain times... |
LeynirSep 7, 2014 2:21 AM
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| She didnt flirt with him...And as i said she clearly hates him without a doubt...but world is not Black and White(Monogatari season first arc)...I was talking about "Don't interfere" part...There is no thing as perfect human,if you thought that Senjougahar was perfect get over it,she is not perfect,she is human... About lack of AraragixSenjougahara moments in anime/novel...They showed us the love between them from every person's perspective possible...Even Kaiki starts his monogatari with saying "i will tell you the story of the love between araragi and senjougahara" and dont forget that anime/novel still didnt end so i think we will see them together in the future... |
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LonelyWizard said: She didnt flirt with him... dude, that's just being ignorant... she obviously freaking did... even if the idea is absurd, even if Senjougahara doesn't want that, even... even if she was 'joking'... she still did show us some form of flirting. Also, I hope you read the 'EDIT' in my previous post... EDIT: the amount of contradictions in Koi is too damn high... not sure if that is a horrible mistake made by a simple-minded human being/author or an intentional mistake made exactly to confuse the readers and to make everything look human, AND yet to be explained/solved in the future... I hope it's the latter... If you don't feel there is any contradiction then, we should stop discussing this subject.. you're probably one of those people who is used to watching/reading stuff with plot holes 3 times the size of the sun... so something like this shouldn't matter to you... (of course that was rude, but that's what I think if you didn't feel there isn't in anyway any contradiction... remember contradictions from what we've seen in koi, from what she's done ONLY in Koi... but I don't think you didn't notice anything different, did you?) LonelyWizard said: She didnt flirt with him... Flirting isn't just saying things clearly like 'you're sexy'... she talked to him way more 'freely?' than she should for someone she hates, and in a way very similar to that when she talks to her lover Araragi... and what felt worst of all, it felt like she was being a tsundere about certain stuff at certain times... AND she actually did say stuff that she'd only say to Araragi, and some actual, frank, flirting from time to time... like she'd do with Araragi |
LeynirSep 7, 2014 2:42 AM
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mugi said: The whole point of her arc was the she's not such a strong person and after the crab was removed, the showed showed several times that she acts and feels like every normal person. She freaked the heck out just because Hanekawa run away from home. Well, I know that was the point of this arc, but if anything... it showed me that she is beyond weak, weaker than weak... I can't find a word to describe how weak she is in my vocabulary. I myself can't believe I am thinking like that, I can't help but think I am missing something, that's why I want to read the Novel so much. mugi said: The amount of wishful thinking and assumptions you're projecting on this character is hilarious. Actually I do, I want her to do the right thing... I want to feel that she did the right thing... but I try to as objective as possible... judging from what happened in Koi wasn't just 'character development'... she felt like a totally different character, she was a different character, she can't even be compared to Senjougahara from any other Monogatari... mugi said: Just go and write your own fan-fiction please. I wish I was capable of that... I am not that much of writer... but is it possible to enjoy something you wrote? you write spoilers for yourself, what's the point then? write for other people? huh, why would want to pleasure other people? maybe a book for teaching, a textbook actually, I'd like to write that, but a book for others to enjoy... huh XD mugi said: That's hilarious. You apparently completely fail to understand the concepts and themes of this series. Well, I am sure that you understand everything, you're such a smart person after all... but you completely failed to grasp the idea I put on the table... maybe you read everything I wrote, but you didn't collect anything from it... and it's not just me, lots of people feel that.. the amount of times I've discussed this thing is too damn high... maybe I should stop. but anyways, you seem to totally ignore my reasoning? "just go and write your own fan-fiction"... well, you didn't give any ideas to back you up, just pushed my away. there are 2 possible scenarios, you're so smart you don't care about other's ideas, and disagree without even giving one to back you up OR you're so stupid you fail to grasp the other idea on the table or even what is shown in the anime (even though it's not that complicated).. actually, thinking about it, the first scenario isn't that of a smart person, because If he didn't care about other's so much, he wouldn't be discussing this subject... lots of people feel the same way I do... one of us surely missed something... but if I failed to understand, themes given in the anime, pls explain to me, I am sure I'd understand... or at least try.. EDIT ***IMPORTANT*** I have an idea, for both of us to be able to understand each other... let's make the discussion rather simpler... Let's discuss her first reaction when she met Kaiki... I can say, that She really laughed from the bottom of her heart when she saw him with that Hawaiian Shirt and not with the suit.. she really really really laughed... When a person I don't even like even a little bit, tells a joke... I'd actually stare in disgust into him... For her to actually laugh like that to someone she hates so much... Let's discuss this... Why would she laugh so hard? I don't even remember her laughing nearly that hard, not even once with Araragi... that fact itself means something... Could it be that it's because Kaiki is the Narrator? he exaggerated? Well, if that's the case we might as well ignore everything he mentions, let's ignore the entire Koimonogatari then. Of course we shouldn't ignore anything... actually it's because it's Kaiki and because he's a character that understand lies so much, he doubts everything... I don't think he can you know, not realize when he is being fooled... Maybe she was that good at acting? well, what the heck in order to fool him? well, what an actor.. but from everything before Koi, she was a horrible actor, she didn't really know any way to 'hide' her feelings, she was simply a tsundere... a plain easy to understand tsundere, a beautiful tsundere, but yet, very strong tsundere......... Or was she? is it possible that she was acting then too? hmm Is it because Araragi healed her, that she didn't even care about Kaiki anymore... he no longer even means anything to her... well, if that's the case, then I certainly need this Araragi... apparently the eraser of Hatred. [b]Now, actually it'd be better if you just read the EDIT in this post, and I hope you understood my... idea... (although that's not all of it)... because THE EDIT just puts my idea on the table in such a simple way so that you and I can exchange ideas far more quickly and easily without having to write such ridiculously long posts. |
LeynirSep 7, 2014 7:26 AM
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| No, you have to remember that Monogatari isn't your typical romance series. It's not as simple as "Oh look, she's meeting with another guy, SHE MUST BE CHEATING." If anything, I found Hitagi's entire exchange with Kaiki patronizing and mocking. Actually, Kaiki's monologue even mentions this to a degree. Actually, I've noticed this happens in many other series with romance whenever the love interest talks to another guy that is not the protagonist. People will start flipping their shit and over-exaggerate every little detail, misinterpreting interactions. |
| (>'_')># ~Here's a waffle, please calm down... "See that? She's cute and popular. You could say that her milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard. But YOU club President... your milkshakes are wasted on you. In other words, you're wasteful." ~D-Frag (Best.Reference.Ever.) |
| ^At this point you would figure most people noticed that the franchise overall handles rather differently compared to a lot of shows (especially in S2, when the PoV even shifted between characters and made them emerge much more solidly), but nope, some people still try to approach it like it's another run-to-the-mill rom-com with stock characters, and just watch it on auto-pilot without actually paying attention what is going on and what is being said. Or how previous events and developments build and foreshadow the later parts of each story in the series, to the point the adaptations feel like watching a work of literature in motion, and needs to be perceived as such to get the most out of the series, and this isn't something that could work when a lot of people approach this series as "I just want my tsundere/vampire loli romance and not this walky-talky boring shit about feelings and perceptions and whatnot, that's for nerds and people with shit taste in their waifus". Though I suppose it's not much surpise when "best girls" can stop being best girls after a simple act of haircut, or people start to freak out when the series starts to be more about the other characters than the hijinks of the "main couple". Or start to assume NTR and the like when, you know, this arc in question was anything but an NTR chapter, and you'd literally have to be blind to not notice the odds the characters were pitched against. I know this sounds weird for an anime (or a work of fiction in general), but try to give these characters at least some credit. The writing behind the show in general leaves more than enough air for you to try and treat it better than ye olde generic show with barely present writing and characters that can be fully known just by their assumed archetypes. |
Dodgers20Sep 7, 2014 11:25 AM
| Well, i clearly wrote a rather simple example about riding a ship and sea-sick. I really don't have anything more clear than that as i think it was really good enough. Hitagi clearly trying her best to play mind games with Kaiki in koimonogatari arc. And Kaiki acknowledged it by saying that Hitagi "comeback stronger than before". I don't know what do you expect from her, but like i said, the way she approaching Kaiki was the best method possible. Opposite from you, i would be disappointed instead if she straight-forward and honest with Kaiki. If you wanted to see a little clue of her skill, you can re-watch the Tsubasa Tiger arc or Nekomonogatari White arc Light Novel. It showed how Hitagi leading all the conversation with Hanekawa and how she exposing all of Hanekawa flaw. Her conversation with Karen also a good reference. Beyond that, i think there is nothing we should discuss about if you still insist on your believe. As it getting repetitive. |
FlashofthebackSep 7, 2014 3:57 PM
Leynir said: Let's discuss her first reaction when she met Kaiki... I can say, that She really laughed from the bottom of her heart when she saw him with that Hawaiian Shirt and not with the suit.. she really really really laughed... Maybe it was really really really funny? Leynir said: Let's discuss this... Why would she laugh so hard? I don't even remember her laughing nearly that hard, not even once with Araragi... 1-You didnt see AraragixSenjougahara that much 2-They were in serious discussions/or early stages of their relationship where Senjougahara was not a normal person 3-i seriously think you missed 4-5 short scenes where they told that Senjougahara started to laugh more than ever,she became a much better person thanks to Araragi,she became more beautiful and weak as a normal girl around araragi Leynir said: She was not hiding her emotions before,she was "unable" to show her emotions....And she was never a tsundere either,it is a joke both Senjougahara and Meme used...If you need a name for her you can call her Deredere with Yandere tendencies...Maybe she was that good at acting? well, what the heck in order to fool him? well, what an actor.. but from everything before Koi, she was a horrible actor, she didn't really know any way to 'hide' her feelings, she was simply a tsundere... a plain easy to understand tsundere, a beautiful tsundere, but yet, very strong tsundere......... And i will repeat myself again why is it such a big deal?One would think that after Araragi flirted and kissed alot of girls people wouldnt judge Senjougahara for laughing and having a little conversation with someone she had some kind of relationship before she met Araragi *IMPORTANT i dont try to insult you or anything but before we continue this discussion i suggest you to do either one of these: 1-Rewatch the series carefully,without skipping any scenes,stopping to read monologues 2-Read the novels 3-Read other works of Nisio Isin,Monogatari series has more than 1 layers...The thing you thought you understood is not what you meant to understand sometimes... |
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LonelyWizard said: Maybe it was really really really funny? hahaha, well it was.... even I laughed XD... but from her point of view it shouldn't If I were her, maybe a little smirk, spill some orange... but seriously she kept laughing for like a year (not an exaggeration) it's not that, she surely did become a better person because of Araragi (to not realize that means that I've been gazing half the time of not only Koi but the entire monogatari series... why do you think that? XD) becoming a better person is irrelevant... and seriously one can't become that much good of a person... she seriously hated the guy Why she laughed so hard? I didn't understand why... simply; because there is nothing I can't understand... that's why I couldn't help but think something was missing... and obviously her entire relationship with Kaiki is missing.. No matter how many times I put myself in her situation, I just couldn't understand why she reacted like that (in some/certain moments).. I simply don't like, that's all there is to it, all there ever was... EDIT: actually, If I put myself in that situation, I might have laughed a little bit hard XD such a bad example of a moment to discuss this XD let me just find another example of a moment Tsundere, Yandere, Deredere or whatever... those aren't even words to describe a real character. I just used 'tsundere' because it makes Senjougahara feel understandable, like she was before Koi. that's all. I never actually did mean it. Also, you use things that are too obvious to make as your 'back up'... that only makes me believe that it's you that is missing something... but I really hope that's not the case... Point 1 and 2... seriously, everybody knows that... Point 3... only 4-5 scenes? If that was the case, It'd be more like I missed 99% of the series to be able to miss such big concept. LonelyWizard said: One would think that after Araragi flirted and kissed alot of girls people wouldnt judge Senjougahara for laughing and having a little conversation with someone she had some kind of relationship before she met Araragi don't say such horrible things... are you implying that she totally forgave Kaiki? 'laughing and having a little conversation' so casually is something you don't do with someone you hate so much... and why do you think I dislike the fact that she talked to him? she can talk with anyone she wants however she want... bit kissing.. is a little overboard Koyomi XD seriously XD ho hoh ho... I FOUND IT, the ultimate statement the expresses how I felt.. 'it is the fact that it is implied in koimonogatari that she forgave him, that little fact is what I disliked' .. "it's implied that she forgave him"... of course If it's totally okay with you that she forgave him, then it's up to you... I don't even like the idea of that... she couldn't possibly become that perfect of a person. whether you accepted it or not... so it all comes back to opinions, life style, your personality, and how everyone thinks of other people... I was wrong, it's not something to be discussed... you can like it, and you can not.. huh... well, shit... why did I end up on the side that can't accept this!! |
LeynirSep 7, 2014 3:38 PM
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Leynir said: Also, you use things that are too obvious to make as your 'back up'... that only makes me believe that it's you that is missing something... but I really hope that's not the case... Well,because to me this discussion is obvious like that...Whole point of the anime/novel is showing how people are not really the person you thought,how they change,how they become more human...examples: Tsukihi - She is not even human but Araragi accepted her as her genuine sister Shinobu - You cant understand this one because it took their 888 years to adapt Kizu Hachikuji - Araragi treated her as human,thus she felt and acted more and more like human...She lost her Kaii self and erased because of that Hanekawa - This is the most obvious one,people always treated her as pure white,a perfect human being who knows everything,she accepted that she is far from perfect embraced her negative emotions and become whole Kanbaru - spoiler for Hanamonogatari...That one is another obvious one Nadeko - This one has 2 sides.First is her personality,she was always hiding behind her bangs,hiding her true self and always going with flow.After accepting her dream as Mangaka its implied that she will at least go after that dream...She literally became a god and chose to return to be a human Leynir said: of course If it's totally okay with you that she forgave him, then it's up to you yes,if it's not understandable for you to forgive a person there is nothing we can do to change it but since this is a discussion im simply trying to explain what is its purpose As i mentioned above,you may feel that its wrong how she act...But writer made it like that intentionally,in fact thats the sole reason he wrote the novel(and money),thats the Main Idea of the novel... Think about Naruto and One Piece(i would give more precise examples but you dont have much anime in your list)...Amount of forgiveness is over 9999 in that anime but you can think of Pain situation if you want... |
LoneWizzySep 7, 2014 11:32 PM
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LonelyWizard said: Well,because to me this discussion is obvious like that...Whole point of the anime/novel is showing how people are not really the person you thought,how they change,how they become more human... Well, dude XD from my point of view you kept mentioning stuff that are obvious, that I already considered.. that are too easily understood, I don't think anyone who watched monogatari can miss something like those... while I was hoping I was wrong (deep down)... I wanted you to say something to change how I felt XD but that was impossible to begin with :P LonelyWizard said: yes,if it's not understandable for you to forgive a person there is nothing we can do to change it but since this is a discussion im simply trying to explain what is its purpose hahaha XD well yeah, you're right... Someone can forgive another person, but just not that easily and not that quick :P that's all I am saying. LonelyWizard said: Think about Naruto and One Piece(i would give more precise examples but you dont have much anime in your list)...Amount of forgiveness is over 9999 in that anime but you can think of Pain situation if you want... hahaahhahahah... it's exactly because of that, I am annoyed... she's starting to look like a character from those anime, far too much ideal... the type that would grab that bad person's hand when He is gonna fall from a cliff, while in real life, you'd never do that, no one really does that! nobody can be that good of a person. yeah, so when I said 'discuss' before I meant 'talk me out of it'... I wanted you to change how I felt... that's what I meant... but now that I actually understand how I felt... that's really hard.. of course we can continue to discuss this until we are totally worn out. So to put it simply, I don't the main idea of the Novel. this statement: LonelyWizard said: you may feel that its wrong how she act... But writer made it like that intentionally,in fact thats the sole reason he wrote the novel(and money),thats the Main Idea of the novel.. Exactly, I don't like that main idea of the novel, that is all. I don't think what she had done is wrong, I think it's just waaaay too wrong, that's why I can't accept it... I am allowed to do that, aren't I? I liked monogatari because the characters had so much depth... they were so real; it's unreal... and then suddenly she did something only done is Shonen/Shoujo Manga... apparently, it's still just Anime, still just an imagination of an unreal situation, and apparently confused character doing something also unreal because the 'author' needs to make a point, needs to deliver one of his ideas in the Novel... that's the point of difference between fantasy and life; not everything has a point in life. of course you can make all the points you want, author, just don't make such beautiful character and his reasoning so confused in order to do that. Apparently, I really did overestimate Monogatari. XD it was one of my favorites. |
LeynirSep 8, 2014 2:03 AM
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Leynir said: Yes,of course...Exactly, I don't like that main idea of the novel, that is all. I don't think what she had done is wrong, I think it's just waaaay too wrong, that's why I can't accept it... I am allowed to do that, aren't I? Leynir said: I liked monogatari because the characters had so much depth... they were so real; it's unreal... and then suddenly she did something only done is Shonen/Shoujo Manga... its obvious that i had to give that as example because you almost have no anime in your list...Well lets try this then,kirino x manami fight...They fought to theit heart's content and get over it Leynir said: i still dont get how forgiving someone is unreal,i thought that people are tend to forgive and forget stuff by nature.seems like i was wrong, maybe it was something personal or cultural on my sideapparently, it's still just Anime, still just an imagination of an unreal situation, and apparently confused character doing something also unreal because the 'author' needs to make a point, needs to deliver one of his ideas in the Novel... that's the point of difference between fantasy and life; not everything has a point in life. of course you can make all the points you want, author, just don't make such beautiful character and his reasoning so confused in order to do that. Leynir said: Apparently, I really did overestimate Monogatari. LoL... |
LoneWizzySep 8, 2014 2:13 AM
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LonelyWizard said: its obvious that i had to give that as example because you almost have no anime in your list...Well lets try this then,kirino x manami fight...They fought to theit heart's content and get over it Who the heck are those? XD lol Yes, I need to update my anime list XD LonelyWizard said: I still dont get how forgiving someone is unreal,i thought that people are tend to forgive and forget stuff by nature.seems like i was wrong, maybe it was something personal or cultural on my side Although, most people want to be Good like that, and want to be able to forgive like that... that's not the case... Forgiving someone is NOT unreal... it's very real.. just that it's NOT that EASY, like in anime and manga, it's way harder than that... you can't just hug a person that tried to kill your family (just a random example) [try to insert any other reason of extreme hate] and above all else, a person needs to sincerely apologize to be given forgiveness LonelyWizard said: [/quote]Leynir said: Apparently, I really did overestimate Monogatari. LoL... What's that supposed to mean? XD I just thought it was the perfect fantasy, and yet the most real... but it's still just fantasy, like any other... and such a perfect fantasy can't exist in the first place :P |
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Leynir said: LonelyWizard said: its obvious that i had to give that as example because you almost have no anime in your list...Well lets try this then,kirino x manami fight...They fought to theit heart's content and get over it Who the heck are those? XD lol 2 characters from one of the 30 anime in your list... |
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LonelyWizard said: 2 characters from one of the 30 anime in your list... Obviously. XD that's what I deduced from the way you said it... I don't know when I did watch that... it feels like it was 5 years, there is no way I can remember those characters :P but regarding Senjougahara... I think I am starting to see the whole picture... it's not that I overestimated Monogatari (well, maybe a little)... but Senjougahara is... someone who would fall in love with someone just because they helped her... she was not that bright of a character to begin with XD that's why naturally I didn't want someone other than Araragi to help her... because she's that weak... but I was being paranoid over nothing... she couldn't have felt have felt something for Kaiki because he helped her, right? XD Araragi really did change her... or did he? XD |
LeynirSep 8, 2014 4:07 AM
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here i have a solution for you: |
LoneWizzySep 8, 2014 5:39 AM
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| What's the point you're trying to make? I know that we shouldn't trust everything... but the fact that he said it is so reassuring so you should also doubt if he really did mean that... you should doubt the fact that you should doubt it... meaning, just, treat it like normal, and doubt it like you normally would. 001 was just merely trying to make you remember that you should doubt stuff, not necessarily everything in this novel or are you saying the Nisio Isin meant it like this: "Senjougahara will do something you might not like, but don't worry, it might not be true." is this your point? not sure if this is good writing, or bad writing... but we might as well doubt that statement XD but maybe I am over thinking stuff... maybe he seriously did mean there is something wrong with this Novel, and I am gonna explain that later.. |
LeynirSep 8, 2014 6:04 AM
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Leynir said: This...I am giving you a opportunity to relax :S...As Kaiki said many many times,think everything he said as a lie and Senjougahara never contacted with Kaiki...but maybe I am over thinking stuff... |
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LonelyWizard said: [/quote]Leynir said: This...I am giving you a opportunity to relax :Sbut maybe I am over thinking stuff... Hahahaa XD holy shit, I see it now... how much was I over thinking stuff? seriously? :P From chapter 001, I should have just thought I shouldn't trust what's going on here... and that there might be something wrong in it... and that's it... even if Nisio Isin, plans on explaining it in the future or not.. I just shouldn't trust what is mentioned... I just shouldn't have over thank to that degree XD |
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mugi said: Well,he thinks that as weakness...So....If anything said about Senjougahari in this story startled you, bravo.This is what the author intended. She only knows him as upthight conman, so her spitting out that drink on sight is a rather valid reaction... |
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| Mugi... so you finally try to understand me, at least XD I think I can get the whole picture now Ok... anything I don't quote is something I agree with you on... the ones I do quote I'll just add some comments mugi said: It is implied that she used her charm similarly to what she did in Koi to convince Kaiki to help (she is under the effect to the crab... so she has emotionally no problem doing or saying something inappropriate), and apparently also paid him ( I don't even remember) mugi said: Senjougahara then wants to prevent Koyomi from meeting Kaiki because: 1. She doesn't want Koyomi to know those bits of her past, but blows the bubble with an (implied) overstatement, Senjougahara style. Well, she sent him that message 'Don't interfere'... it means that she understood him so much... if that's the case, then I don't think in the past that she just "used her charm similarly to what she did in Koi"... but she might have actually, and Kaiki was actually and idiot and got fooled... but we can't say for sure... There is also the possibility that Kaiki is even more of an idiot (because Kaiki is the narrator) that he is mistaken... he just assumed it was Senjougahara sent that messsage... but there is also the chance that someone else did send it... like Ougi for instance XD if that's the case, then, everything you said, I love it XD mugi said: There is no actual implication of her ever hating him just discontent. well, are you sure? she really did hate him tho... but I tried to put the situation in a real life example... so you used to date a person, that person cheated.. broke your heart... then you broke up... a year later you had to contact that person for a favor... of course because you forgot about it and you didn't care but really needed the favor, you can talk with that person normally (it's not the same situation but similar)... So the mistake I made here, was overlook the time interval between incidents (which is actually a major part of the story) XDDDDD seriously, I am an idiot XD mugi said: If she forgave Kaiki or how much she knows about the previous incident at this point is unknown. But him deciding to help her for basically nothing (and succeeding) is a pretty valid reason to "forgive" him. Well, It's safe to assume that she doesn't know about the previous incident... or if what is mentioned in Koi about that incident is true or not (Kaiki said doubt everything, so don't just fall into his trap, or is it a trap? but anyways we can't trust that fact yet). Well, when I said she seemed to forgive him... I didn't mean AFTER deceiving snake... she seemed like she forgave him before even asking anything from him. and that's because she didn't really care about the past (like that person that cheated on you favor thingie). LonelyWizard said: Well,he thinks that as weakness...So.... yep because I totally overlooked the time intervals XD It just looked like she instantly forgave him... but like I said huh... to tell you the truth most of the time I ignored the date in the series... because I thought it shouldn't affect how you feel that much XD well, I was an ignorant little kid when I watched the series back in 2009 for the first time and you can say... the habit of ignoring the date... so I will not make that mistake again XD this is a stupid question but, Do you think my idea of it is close to yours? XD I can say that my heart is a little bit at ease now... lovable Senjougahara's somewhat preserved :P and also what do you think of that theory (or maybe hypothesis) that Ougi wrote that letter 'don't interfere'? I think it's pretty solid example for why you shouldn't trust everything in koi... I was over thinking stuff... so much |
LeynirSep 8, 2014 7:58 AM
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mugi said: Ougi has enough reason,she dont want Sengoku to return being a human but she did nothing to stop Kaiki,so it would be logical for her to try at least that to stop him.....Where does it say it was her? I'm 100% it wasn't from her. If I remember correctly it was either from Hanekawa or Ougi. 80% of me leans to the latter. mugi said: If you are unfamiliar with the concepts of unreliable narrators, then you have to read up on it a bit. not only unreliable narrators,also we see just the main character's point of view...Which is not very common in other anime...We dont know what others think,do or plan...So it makes it harder to understand some important stuff... |
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mugi said: Leynir said: Well, she sent him that message 'Don't interfere'... it means that she understood him so much... Where does it say it was her? I'm 100% it wasn't from her. If I remember correctly it was either from Hanekawa or Ougi. 80% of me leans to the latter. Well, the last episode, after he finished his last phone call... he stated that she knows him too much, like Gaen does... from his point of view it it looked this way... yep he's an idiot, he might be, he might not... you're lucky you didn't pay attention at that moment.. because it's one you should doubt alot! he just assumed that, and yes it's most likely Ougi :P I don't think it's Hanekawa, you seem to have forgotten the conversation he had with her after that message, so I don't think there is a reason for her to send him such a message (based on that conversation) . Yes, I understand the concept of unreliable narrators... it's just in Koi I was really really really over thinking stuff, and partially missed some data like the date so.... yeah XD |
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LonelyWizard said: not only unreliable narrators,also we see just the main character's point of view...Which is not very common in other anime...We dont know what others think,do or plan...So it makes it harder to understand some important stuff... Yeah, changing the point of view was strange (or new for me at least) so I can agree with what you've said... it's not that hard, but it's not also that easy... changing perspective, I mean to get used to a certain POV then change suddenly to someone else's might make you feel a little bit uneasy (how I felt, right there), because that person might have way too much different ideas, ways of thinking, it's just a whole new way to view things, bad might turn into good and so on... AND to top that off he wasn't a reliable narrator... so of course one should feel uneasy. |
LeynirSep 8, 2014 8:27 AM
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| The characters of Monogatari series are so complex it leads to a lot of misinterpretations. Did Senjougahara liked Kaiki? The way I see it she admired Kaiki (before) maybe like a savior (or a crush to some extent) nothing really deep. Just a young girl admiring someone but got betrayed. Does she love Kaiki now? No. Senjougahara is a character that's hard to read. She's sarcastic, manipulative and she loves to say thing she doesnt mean. Maybe you can call her interactions with Kaiki "flirting" but to me, its just part of her personality. She loves to tease people and I dont think she meant it when she said she'd sell her body. She said that because she knows Kaiki would say no. Its just part of her personality. edit: Just read Tsudecimo's post. He explained things well. |
AsianKungFuSep 8, 2014 8:40 AM
"I have been wielding a blade since before your were swimming around your father's scrotum." - Kurou |
mugi said: Well, she never really stated that she forgave him. Don't forget that contacting him was a desperate call and her only option. Also it's debatable and unclear how much she needs to forgive (depending on the graveness of their previous drama). If you look at the facts, Kaiki didn't really do so much that someone could never forgive. He just left the impression of being a thief, or simply a conman. But somehow she must have understood that he was for real a specialist, otherwise she wouldn't have contacted him. This is possibly due to the informaton Koyomi gained about him (Kaiki's relationship with Kagenui and Oshino). She might as gotten that information from Koyomi after the events of Nise, since apparently they do talk about these things. That was kind of a point after Mayoi Snail, when they decided to not hide something from each other. Ignoring the facts that she hides her future association with Kaiki because Koyomi really doesn't like him. And Koyomi hides that he keeps attempting to fight Nadeko, and other incidents with the girls, though we actually don't know if he talks about it with Senjougahara or not. Holy Shit... I was going to write the EXACT freaking same thing XD seriously I couldn't have said it any better! I can't believe my 'opinion' changed this much tho haha... all I had to do was just stop over thinking, and over analyzing... and pay attention to some given data I thought didn't matter .. btw did you rewatch Bakemonogatari? or parts of it? either you have very good memory or you did a re-watch like I did :P EDIT I was getting angry at certain times because I kept my point of view locked into that of Araragi... of course, being locked like that into Araragi, If anyone does anything that would annoy Araragi (like what Senjougahara did), I'd get annoyed like Araragi! does this make any sense.. hmm |
LeynirSep 8, 2014 8:46 AM
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mugi said: Still being able to read the books must have a positive effect...Not recently, but I watched the anime a couple of times. I've read the books as well but it's been a while, and I'm not a Japanese pro. AsianKungFu said: She loves to tease people and I dont think she meant it when she said she'd sell her body.Its just part of her personality. She already stated that she thinks her bitter tongue and teasing as one of her best part when they watch the stars with Araragi And more than that i think she just wanted Kaiki to realize how serious she is... |
LoneWizzySep 8, 2014 9:00 AM
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LonelyWizard said: And more than that i think she just wanted Kaiki to realize how serious she is... this. |
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TonyC1994 said: mugi said: So her acting cold as ice because of the crab (after)effects is more real than her acting like a normal person later? This is the complete opposite of how it is in the series. If anything she acted unreal before and is now more believable. But her abusive behavior (humor) towards other people remained. Nisio Isin will never show you a perfect character, he writes broken characters unless he LITERALLLY writes a perfect human being. Everything shown past the Crab (or NiseI) shows you that she's changing back into a normal person with normal feelings: She was under the effect of the crab and got conned several times while seeking help for her family. She finds Kaiki who is an actual specialist, this after she already spend her resources and trust in previous "specialists". It is implied that she used her charm similarly to what she did in Koi to convince Kaiki to help (she is under the effect to the crab... so she has emotionally no problem doing or saying something inappropriate), and apparently also paid him ( I don't even remember). This is because Kaiki doesn't just help people if it's not in his interest, profit or whatever. He leaves her with the crab because he thinks it's the best for her but destroys her mother's cult, which leads her into joining an even worse cult. How much Senjougahara really knows about this is unknown. From that information given she only knows that he ended up doing nothing and took her money and trust if she had any. She wasn't even really able to hate because of the crab during that time. So think of her being disappointed and losing trust in people in general (which is why she even hurt her close friend Kanbaru and told her not talk to her anymore when Kanbaru tried to help). It is even plausible to say that she a had a little girl "crush" on him. Or let's say interest, since it is questionable if she was even able to love back then. (She has a father complex, so some middle aged hero deciding to help her might have left and impression on her, initially. Making the disappointment and loss of trust bigger) Senjougahara then wants to prevent Koyomi from meeting Kaiki because: 1. She doesn't want Koyomi to know those bits of her past, but blows the bubble with an (implied) overstatement, Senjougahara style. 2. She "knows" Kaiki is a bastard of a specialist, and Koyomi is a vampire. Skip to a a couple of weeks past Nise: Hanekawa runs away from home and Senjougahara now displays an emotional outbreak ect after like 2 months since the crab disappeared. Skip to the Nadeko incident months later: Nadeko threatens to kill Koyomi, Senjougahara, and most of their friends. The final day is coming soon, and the only person she knows who can help are, Koyomi (who constantly tries but can't and she doesn't want to), Oshino who is gone missing, and Kaiki. She contacts Kaiki and you know the rest. There is no actual implication of her ever hating him just discontent. If anything, she learned how deal with their past since she managed to handle her emotions on her own again. If anything, this shows more strength especially when she even says how far she would go for her loved one. If she forgave Kaiki or how much she knows about the previous incident at this point is unknown. But him deciding to help her for basically nothing (and succeeding) is a pretty valid reason to "forgive" him. About the book and Nisio Isin. Like I said you need to understand this author and the concepts and themes he uses for this series. I don't feel like explaining it though. For Koimonogatari though, the book is written in Nisio Isin troll fashion. He already played with the concept of people's different perception of things depending on the point of view. Now you see Senjougahara's story from Kaiki's point of view who is an unreliable narrator (common thing for Nisio Isin). The "theme" of Koi is "simple". A love story and a liar/troll story. The love story portion is simple, it's the Senjougahara x Koyomi (xNadeko) portion of this story. However, the main focus on this story is Kaiki, who is only really associated with Senjougahara here. He tells the story, and everything makes it sound like the love story is about Kaiki and Senjougahara because of those bits of misleading information that were dropped. And you are left in Kaiki's mercy to elaborate on the whole thing. If anything said about Senjougahari in this story startled you, bravo. This is what the author intended. At times like these, I seriously wish there was a like button. Wonderful explanation. More or less along the lines of what I wanted to say. |
| (>'_')># ~Here's a waffle, please calm down... "See that? She's cute and popular. You could say that her milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard. But YOU club President... your milkshakes are wasted on you. In other words, you're wasteful." ~D-Frag (Best.Reference.Ever.) |
| ^Still there is something on my mind...Did they ask help from Ononoki and Kagenui?I would go to them after trying Oshino,before asking Kaiki... |
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| Ononoki couldn't possibly possess the same knowledge as Kaiki or Oshino. Also wasn't Kagenui busy at this time? Even so, she probably would have resorted to violence given her nature, and that's definitely not something that Araragi would have wanted for Nadeko. Also mugi brings up a good point that I thought was pretty obvious the moment that Koimonogatari started. Kaiki is the narrator. We see things from Kaiki's point of view. Even if the events that transpired were actually true, you ought to notice the difference in terms of framing that the story had taken for this arc. In Koimonogatari, Kaiki looks like a normal human being that we can relate to, not like the shadowy, vampiric, Nosferatu-like figure he was depicted as in Nisemonogatari (which is mostly from Araragi's perspective). Conversely, Senjougahara is framed here as simply being a fairly young highschooler who's trying to deal with her mix of emotions, unlike her usual high position of being on a pedestal as portrayed from Araragi's point of view. Fake or not, it's all about the framing as well as the perspective that the story adopts, and in this case we see the story unfold through Kaiki's eyes (for once). |
mugi said: Kagenui is also gone missing at this point. Senjougahara had Kaiki's phone number (didn't he give someone in Nise his business card?), I don't think she would have been able to contact Kagenui or Ononoki. The latter can't really help though, and Senjougahara specifically requested that Kaiki "needs to con someone for her". Also questionable if they could have dealt with Nadeko in a more aggressive way. They wouldnt be the first choice but in a life or death situation one would assume they would try to get help from them or ask for some advice at the very least...We know they tried to find Oshino and they couldnt(He dont have a phone since he is bad with technology) but they didnt tell anything about Gaen or Kagenui... |
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mugi said: You might actually be safe to assume that Koyomi contacted Gaen considering the ofuda was hers yea thats why i include her as a possible helper...About Kagenui,when did they tell she was missing?i couldnt remember it... i dont feel good since i cant read the novels...I feel like im not experiencing it to the fullest... |
LoneWizzySep 9, 2014 6:10 AM
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mugi said: Kagenui is also gone missing at this point. Senjougahara had Kaiki's phone number (didn't he give someone in Nise his business card?), I don't think she would have been able to contact Kagenui or Ononoki. The latter can't really help though, and Senjougahara specifically requested that Kaiki "needs to con someone for her". Actually Senjougahara still had Kaiki's business card, she even shows Araragi a copy of it in Nisemonogatari. So it definitely makes sense why she'd contact Kaiki as he's the only one she could really count on at this point. mugi said: It is unclear what his plans really were but he did seem wanting to fight her when he confronted her multiple times. Though he of all people knows the terror of Kagenui so you can assume that he doesn't want anyone to go through the same, immortal or not. Pretty much, even if he's very confrontational towards Nadeko, I doubt that Araragi would necessarily want Kagenui to kill Nadeko. And again like you said, an aggressive stance towards Nadeko isn't necessarily the best answer (as demonstrated by Kaiki). mugi said: Nekomonogatari Shiro, when Hanekawa meets Gaen. Yup, this is in the anime, and while I haven't read the novel myself, I do know that Kagenui was away at this time (also isn't she getting her own arc later like Kaiki?) |
ronri said: There is a book about Ononoki later on...i assume it will include Kagenui too...also isn't she getting her own arc later like Kaiki?) |
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LonelyWizard said: ronri said: There is a book about Ononoki later on...i assume it will include Kagenui too...also isn't she getting her own arc later like Kaiki?) I recall one of the Vofan illustrations featured Kagenui on the cover as well, so I'm definitely excited to see one of the later arcs focus on her. |
ronri said: The thing i wonder most is what is oshino doing...kaiki recalled the fact that he is missing in his monologues few times...LonelyWizard said: There is a book about Ononoki later on...i assume it will include Kagenui too... I recall one of the Vofan illustrations featured Kagenui on the cover as well, so I'm definitely excited to see one of the later arcs focus on her. |
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LonelyWizard said: The thing i wonder most is what is oshino doing...kaiki recalled the fact that he is missing in his monologues few times... Also, I really hope he does show up again, to conveniently save a really desperate situation.. you know, him being awesome, like he used to be. I can almost imagine it, him coming back, and being like 'I didn't say Goodbye because I was planning on coming back' and 'I didn't help you with Sengeku because I knew Kaiki would' or something like that .... My fan fiction is so simple... although him appearing again would cure my little heart XD |
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Leynir said: Or there is something about Ougi making him occupied...Why they think that Ougi is niece of Meme :I Or something completely irrelevant and stupidLonelyWizard said: The thing i wonder most is what is oshino doing...kaiki recalled the fact that he is missing in his monologues few times... Also, I really hope he does show up again, to conveniently save a really desperate situation.. you know, him being awesome, like he used to be. I can almost imagine it, him coming back, and being like 'I didn't say Goodbye because I was planning on coming back' and 'I didn't help you with Sengeku because I knew Kaiki would' or something like that .... My fan fiction is so simple... although him appearing again would cure my little heart XD |
LoneWizzySep 9, 2014 12:17 PM
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LonelyWizard said: Or there is something about Ougi making him occupied...Why they think that Ougi is niece of Meme :I Or something completely irrelevant and stupid well, I don't wanna overestimate Ougi, all she/he did was manipulate people... like Snake... I don't think she's capable of manipulating Oshino. I might be overestimating Oshino here so I might be wrong... what you've said is very possible.. but Oshino has the personality to just disappear for the heck of it whenever he wants (in the first place he was just a 'man passing by')... I think that's more likely. yep, it's probably something random and irrelevant. but it's all just assumptions XD |
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| Totally agree with you ... hitagi is trash but so is araragi ... i mean he's such a wimp ... I would love another season where they break up ... I ship shinobu :) i mean she really loves him ... even when they had a big fight that wasnt animated .... she didnt fighz at full force so she wouldnt kill him .... and instead she became his slave ( some sort of slave) |
Oxalias said: Shomix said: She can turn into a super hot woman.Totally agree with you ... hitagi is trash but so is araragi ... i mean he's such a wimp ... I would love another season where they break up ... I ship shinobu :) i mean she really loves him ... even when they had a big fight that wasnt animated .... she didnt fighz at full force so she wouldnt kill him .... and instead she became his slave ( some sort of slave) Shinobu ? Yeah I know ... And plus she really cares for araragi ... Senjogahara needs to be with Kaiki ... Reason is simple ... Keep trash with trash :) |
| its funny how ppl dont mind kyomi and his harem and they dont care for hitagis feeling but the second its hitagi and kaika ppl feel uneasy it shows the amount of insecurities they have within themselves |
| I didn't like her to begin with, so it's all good. |
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| After seeing Hitagi End, I really don't see how the Kaiki x Hitagi thing ever came up. But no, I do still like Hitagi. |
 I go where I wanna go, even if its into Oppai. |
| No, I never disliked her and I love her more after Koimonogatari. |
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| Hitagi x Kaiki was never a thing. I want more Hitagi x Koyomi, no Araragi and harem or whatever else besides those two. |
| Am I the only one who found the Senj's and Kaiki's flirts kinda spicy?.. |
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robis798 said: Am I the only one who found the Senj's and Kaiki's flirts kinda spicy?.. Normal. That is what you get when you put the two best girls in the same place. |
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