Isekai is indistinguishable from AI

SkyfallStar said:


Virtual reality is not alternate reality. Simple as.

MangoSamurai said:
Yeah because the phrase "travel to another world" has never been added to any VR goggle advertisement ever. headass

icefirestone23 said:
reality is Japan has tried consistently to branch out for other ln genres. They pushed Spy Classroom hard, and put a big marketing campaign but it didn't hit number one. They barely put any effort into Isekai cheat skill, and it is now the number one selling LN.
The Waifu bait romance is also never going away. look at angel spoils me rotten, dress up darling, shikimori
Isekai Cheat Skill dominated crunchyroll views.
They don't have anything to compete with it.

woomyBoy said:
I do see your point and i do agree with it, but IIRC isekai cheat skill was unique in that the mc could travel in between the worlds, and for recent anime watchers thats a rare premise so that might explain the insane popularity.

Risa92 said:
Ofc I think it's okay. Other people spend thousands to buy a car that goes far beyond the basic usage of getting from point A to point B. Why shouldn't fans of Gatcha games not spending their money as they like? That's just a boring normie way of thinking since nobody complains about things that are socially more acceptable but as "useless" like expensive wine, cars, watches etc...

SkyfallStar said:


Is your reality defined by marketing campaigns?

icefirestone23 said:
There was some uniquneness to it I do agree.  The Greatest Demon Lord Is Reborn as a Typical Nobody felt like Mischief of Demon King Academy 2.0. I also do think too much of the ln scene is dominated by isekai like Overlord, Re Zero, Konosuba, Tensura till the point it sort of erased sci fi light novels now. Since Sci fi light novels struggling getting mecha animators. Overlord and Tensura feel like the same the story.

SkyfallStar said:
Virtual reality is not alternate reality. Simple as.

Risa92 said:


I mean, I see your point, but lot of people actually love Marvel. I have a good friend, who read the comics since the 2000s and there is much more to that universe than just a hype and in direct comparison, the whole Marvel universe is far above your average isekai writing-wise.
Also both the success of Oppenheimer and Barbie shows that other movies still have a chance, although I too think Marvel gets out too many movies a year.

In anime we are also far, far away from isekais getting the same attention and monopol as Marvel does in cinemas.
There are a big chunk of other series (Jujutsu Kaisen, Bungou Stray Dogs, Undead Girl Murder Farce, Zom100, My Happy Marriage ...) that are neither isekais nor "waifu bait romances" as someone above titled them.

SkyfallStar said:

Do you happen to know the definition of isekai or are your thoughts also machine learning powered?

ateks said:
Literally every single Japanese person will tell you SAO is an isekai so why do you think you know better than them?

SkyfallStar said:


Maybe because the author Reki Kawahara told himself that the series is not an isekai?

https://twitter.com/kunori/status/1117418009679683585

Dulonkk said:
In this instance, there's no use crying over spilled milk. The industry isn't going to cater to the demands of international fans unless the show that they are adapting is significantly influential enough where it will be popular globally regardless of what they do: the Demon Slayers, One Pieces, and the Dragon Balls of the world are the exception to the norm in regard to the anime industry. If isekai is in demand in Japan, then there will be more isekai regardless of the cost, quality, or quantity of the medium. If the demand in Japan goes down, then you won't see isekai slop anymore. The most you should do is just watch whatever you want to watch, which I am sure you do anyway.

ateks said:
Nowhere in this tweet does it say it's not isekai ?

SkyfallStar said:


What part of this does not say exactly that?

"...I was asked many times in interviews what I thought about the current situation as a pioneer of "otherworldly" works, and each time I tried my best to explain, "SAO is a real world work, and I am not a pioneer!"

MangoSamurai said:
Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing.

MangoSamurai said:
I dont expect large change.

MangoSamurai said:
Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry.

ateks said:
You didn't understand what he was trying to say. Why do western elitist always think they know Japanese better than Japanese people? So cringe. SAO is and will always be an isekai.

Risa92 said:
The same as Digimon is an isekai. If you just can log out after a few hours without any issues, it's not an isekai.
If you are transported or captured into the virtual world and your life might be in actual danger, it doesn't make a difference if the other world is made out of data or is just an alternative universe.



It kinda does have an impact on the industry, but these are more like trends that come and disappear the same way the generic battle harems etc. came and disappear in the 2000s lol
People praise the 90s, 2000s and maybe some praise the 2010s now for having more unique anime, because they can't remember everything else that has been released at that time, or they never heard of it.

I'm still tired of it as well, not even of isekai as a whole, because Ascendance of a Bookworm is actually good, and Iruma-kun was pretty refreshing too imo, but of the cheap cashgrabs that barely make anything different and are written like the author isn't even human as you said.

I don't know if the authors of these light novels would have been more talented or not. Maybe it's just enough for them to appeal to the minimum, but then again... what kind of artist with actual talent or someone with an actual vision would think like that.

MangoSamurai said:
Reality is more then often defined by democracy aka majority opinion. You really are too pedantic. 

Dulonkk said:

The thing is, people absolutely do see what you are putting out, and I agree with everything you said in your post. But at the same time, this is just one of those topics where I've just accepted that there will not be a change in this trend until it just dies out. Of course your post and the countless others on the laziness of the isekai genre won't do anything to change the industry, that isn't my point. What I'm saying is that we are powerless to change it and we are not the target demographic for it. That's why I said that there isn't a point in crying over spilled milk: it happened, or in this case, is happening and all we can do is clean it up and pour another glass.


Unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change either. Maybe when another trend takes its place, but then we will have the exact same discussions about X being played out, boring, indistinguishable from an AI, et. cetera.

The quality of discussion on MAL is very consistent in the sense that you will have the same people asking the most generic questions and the same people including myself commenting on it because people like to comment on the forums. I can count the amount of times that I've had a grounded conversation on the direction of the industry and that has only happened to me one time. There is substance on the forums but it is honestly pretty rare. Most people either post coal or when they don't are too emotionally invested into the argument or point that they are trying to make. And of course, there are the trolls too. I think I submit 2-3 reports a day at times and because of the forum moderator shortages, these reports are not always handled frequently. I can't really direct you anywhere else or to any specific users that will give you the conversations that you are seeking because I don't know of any better spaces.

SkyfallStar said:
I work with what I am given. I just don't consider virtual reality alternate and still haven't seen any compelling arguments for it besides marketing slogans and "democratic" language.

SkyfallStar said:


I work with what I am given. I just don't consider virtual reality alternate and still haven't seen any compelling arguments for it besides marketing slogans and "democratic" language. Besides, if the author himself says it's not an isekai, why should I claim otherwise.

GalacticMagna said:
"I hate Isekai" take number 400.

Dulonkk said:
However, I think that SAO serves as one of the most prominent influences to many modern isekais that we see released seasonally. The fantasy setting, the gamification, quests, magic, and all of the other elements that make SAO are prominent influences to these generic isekai shows that we see. That does not make SAO an isekai anime, but it does make SAO an influence or a reference and a cultural barometer to where Japan was at the time SAO started publishing and circulating. The popularity of games such as the Dragon Quest series, the popularity of SAO, and the commonality between SAO and the many trope-filled isekais which came after it aren't a coincidence. So, to me, my stance on SAO is that it isn't an isekai but it was influential to many which came after it for popularizing many of the tropes that we see within them. Escapism sells no matter how you dress it up.

MangoSamurai said:
You are arguing stupid semantics it doesnt matter what the author says, Wikipedia includes virtual worlds similarly to actually completely other realms outside of technology. For all intents and purposes SAO is an isekai.. why? Well because every single person looking for an isekai will do so because they want a story about surviving in an alternative world. SAO gives that world to them. Not particularly well i might add. The label is perfectly fine. the language of the majority of people decide whenever it will be catagorized as. Tomatoes are fruits yet because they are savory they are mostly considered vegetables. Why? because that is what most people understand the two catagories to mean. Im sure you use the exact same language, but im not policing you on it. Certainly not with a pretencious tone you are doing. Technicality is not important when other labels are far more clearer.

MangoSamurai said:

People always try to gatekeep legitimate complaints. "You cant complain about the 40 plus shit anime on every seasonal chart if you havent seen any of them". Yes i can, this isnt high school debate club. People will spend thousands on Gatcha games, you think thats ok too? or do those people might have a problem with crippling anxiety? 

EdgyLord666 said:
If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment.

Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it?

MangoSamurai said:
Your counter argument against my original post was that unless i watch 40+ shows it shouldnt matter? New anime fans always do this, if someone criticizes a thing they love their first instinct or argument is to say unless you dont fully know something then you cant criticise it. Ive seen this so much. But something you love is not just free from criticism, it anything you should critize more, because you want the best for that specific thing. 

The fact is that it is almost impossible to watch everything seasonally unless you watch everything 2x speed. And really, you dont need to know the entirely painted picture. If around 1/4th or more of the industry is taken up by repetitive series that stagnate studios is not an issue to you, then fine. But are we not on the same side? The end goal is better anime for every fan. To me it is important that all these amazing artists should be able to work on different work then Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl. I value it as a medium that has so much lost potential.   

MangoSamurai said:
Undoubtably there is not going to be some big change in isekai just because i wrote a post on an english anime forum. What i can mostly hope for is that people see the same thing i am seeing. Right now there was a thread on what your "waifu or husbando smells like". Im not some pretencious smuck who will only enjoy Evangelion and Legend of the Galactic heroes. But i do like threads with a little more subtance behind them on forums or information on the industry. And i can be the change i want to see. The discussion in these things is interesting to me. I dont expect large change. 

The past of man to redeem, and every "It was" to transform, until the Will saith: "But so did I will it! So shall I will it—"
—This did I call redemption. 

All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man?

EdgyLord666 said:

That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want?

What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Superman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame.
Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes.
Even the wisest among you is only a disharmony and hybrid of plant and phantom. But do I bid you become phantoms or plants?
Lo, I teach you the Superman!

EdgyLord666 said:
Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable.
Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want?
Iso, MitsuoBtw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched.

EdgyLord666 said:
Never said you can't criticize, just makes it understandable.

Yes, my dude, we are on the same side, my end goal is better anime for me and only me, I'm too lazy for that tho, and without contrast, it's not fun to interact with other fans, making it a shitty dream in the end. Bruh, those fans love "Generic mc 250 who sits in the back of the classroom then later is hit by a truck because he was oggling a girl." That's the better anime for them, and yet you want them to enjoy what you want?

Btw, you really make an assumption that I'm a newbie, because of what? Not understanding your opinion? Lol. We have an almost equal days anime watched.

Risa92 said:
You are not that wrong, but ChatGPT wrote me a better isekai than any harem isekai that came out lately.

EdgyLord666 said:
If I gatekeep complaint, then you're gatekeeping enjoyment.

Gatcha? Oh I think it's dumb, but they love it, don't bother anyone, why should I complaint about it?

auroraloose said:

Howly crap more than one brain cell. 

One of the best parts of Thus Spake Zarathustra is where he accuses man of pretending its situation is simply inevitable, and teaching instead that we brought it about:


Like the law tables Zarathustra makes fun of, we act as if some democratic/capitalist invisible hand is inevitable in the art that gets made, when really we've made it this way ourselves—and it can be changed. You're the only person besides me I've seen make this point about anime. 

As to AI, the similarity you've noticed is real, because our way of selecting and producing art for the masses is indeed a kind of intellectual algorithm with various feedback mechanisms: That which is popular and gets money is made more of, which in turn affects what will be popular and what what will make money in the future. In running the algorithm we've fallen into an isekai potential well, a formula that optimizes money and popularity. It's precisely a more abstract version of an AI that gets trained on a set of input and learns to produce an optimized output, in that the things doing the training, inventing the metric, and such are human brains in an industry rather than programs looking at word counts and correlations and diagonalizing huge matrices. 

We invented this intellectual technology of production; we subject our creative brains and wills to this anime-formulating algorithm, when we could very well do it differently if we wanted. Even tweaking the optimized output just slightly would be far more interesting than what we get now; this is exactly what School Days did: By giving us the bad end of the dating sim, it showed us precisely that the narrative choices anime make are choices, and that perhaps the choices we usually make are bad ones. Thinking about it this must be why I'm constantly wishing standard genre installments end up breaking a rule or two, hence why I want the maid to headshot Holmes in Undead Murder Farce—we've got enough detective genre mess; what we need is to mock the mess. 

But "nobody" wants that, so "it won't sell," so we don't get it. Really what that is is an insistence we all remain boring:

MangoSamurai said:
Thank you for appriciating my writings and your great response.

Two expendatures like money and time spend on a mediocre anime is a validation of the products existence. I think that most people are part of the cycle are not aware of its existence and if they are they simply do not care. Which can probably be attributed to age and a new generation

When it comes to age i was not to asimilar to criticizing people who made actual decent arguments against the status quo of anime tropes. And most who pertain this attitude into adulthood seem rarely to veer of into different mediums, foreign cinema, books etc.

Secondly the internet generation obviously disruped this loop into something different then it was before. The idea that anime for example fan reception stayed the same from the 80s until now would be ridiculous. I think its more then obvious then ever. 20 years ago remakes of popular 80s ips would seem like fan fare. However now are a mainstay in popular culture. In the past you could get away with creators convincing studios of a successful product without knowing fan reaction for days or weeks after its airing. Daring products could get made that way. Now more then ever fans are in charge of what will get made or not, and sadly they are not discriminating watchers. They just seem to consume about everything. 

I added you as a friend request. 

auroraloose said:
Better for them! Is it better to wallow in the mud?

MangoSamurai said:
People like to believe they know better, but thats far from the truth. With the amount of information available online people hardly limit themselves. As said in Yasuo Otsuka's (in Joy in Motion documentary): "Some entertainment is slick but empty, I hope you will be discriminating consumers". People should be againt uninspiring types of media, useless bs click bait or awful tiktoks, what makes them think its worth my attention?. During the time of watching these things, everything seems fine but deep down most people know its a waste of time compared to actually watching art which has inspiration behind it. Your attention’s a valuable thing and if this is concidered gatekeeping im completely fine with it.

My bad if i called you a noobie though, but that arguments just reminds me of what every single anime fan says in their first phase of finding the medium. 

DGemu said:
You realize gacha is actively killing the video game market...right? Like every single player and even MMO is getting phased out by gacha games.