Why i hate Fate/ (and love it) [contains spoilers]

Catalano said:

what does that even mean exact opposite? blondie summons swords, then shirou makes swords disappear or what? I blame my poor memory. Having UBW was cool as a final skill but when you watch the fight you get the impression that shirou just deflected some swords and then he cut blondie because he didn't wanna move. It's not like I search for plot holes or anything, but now I got the chance and I would be happy if someone explains me in a few words, like I said, I only found shirou boring, the rest was ok, not really to my taste but watchable.

Dull_Lull said:


I didn't say exact opposite though? I said exact counter. Both UBW and GoB are fundamentally the same thing which is why Shirou can deflect all the noble phantasms Gilgamesh throws at him. Under normal circumstances, other characters would have a hard time fighting against him. He cut blondie because his ego was too big for his own good to acknowledge Shirou as a worthy opponent to take on seriously.

Gilliesss said:

I guess I’ll have a shot at refuting your arguments then. How about no more being nasty though, there are ways to discuss things without hurling insults when you disagree with someone’s opinion.

Yes, there are problems. No matter how many excuses people make up a “realistic” and whiny character does not make them good. There were so many areas where characters could’ve been improved. To add to the housewife point, she really isn’t in battle all that much. And while yes, Shirou leaving her at his house to do absolutely nothing might translate well into his character, it does not translate well into the story at all.

--ALEX-- said:

In the end, I just think of all those amazing servants, and the Hate dissipates.

Dull_Lull said:


Because you don't powerscale Fate like your typical shounen and think that there's a concrete hierarchy of power when in reality, everything is a battle of circumstances and concepts. Saber is still one of the strongest servants and that's a fact.

She got away from Berserker in UBW unlike in Fate because of the terrain they were fighting in. Otherwise, she'd get just as skewered like in Fate. Saber outright says, she has confidence in fighting all the servants easily unless if its Berserker. Against Assassin, she got pushed back because of his swordsmanship equaling hers and she didn't want to show the full extent of her power. Against Rider, she literally retreated on their first fight and got blown away by Excalibur. Against Gil, that should be obvious enough.

Are you sure we're reading the same thing? Saber did not give up everything to be with Shirou the fuck? She realized that her wish was pointless and the whole point of Fate route was for Saber to accept that she did her best as a king and the fact that the holy grail she sought for wasn't the one she wanted in the first place. The ending was literally a bittersweet farewell.

Dull_Lull said:


This implies FSN doesn't have a brilliant master-servant relationship when the entire story is built up upon their relationships with each other.

God this is probably the most misguided thing I've read in the whole thread. The very first scene shows him surviving a huge fire killing everyone around him and you think he's a normal 16 year old boy? That trauma is literally the source of his survivor's guilt and PTSD.

fuckgendo said:


im aware of all of this. i dont know what you're trying to do by analsying the fight scenes but i really don't care. i never said saber was weak, i personally loved her character- just not with shirou. fate/zero is literally one of my favourite animes of all time, and i think the lancer vs saber fight there was brilliant- it shows off how different fighters think. i just personally think shirou/saber is a bad and stupid relationship. the romance feels forced and non-real, i cannot fathom to understand it. also i just simply do not like shirou

2life said:


Have you seen Fate/Extra Encore? Saber was downgraded to level UmU. gosh i wished that weird show was done by type-moon

fuckgendo said:


i just thought that the dynamic from ubw was nowhere near as interesting nor well written in ubw. rin and archer was messy as hell and i felt nothing from shirou and saber compared to saber and kiritsugu. in ubw it felt more shallow.

also shirous whole appeal and character is that he's a nice normal boy who helps other. that is the pure base of his character. and i said in my first post that im aware he's much deeper than that but here's the thing you're not getting through your head:
i don't care. he was still a stale piece of bread to me. his trauma wasn't written well compared to illya who had far less screen time. i don't care how many points of his character you bring up: in the end of the day i just dont like him.

--ALEX-- said:

I didn't see it actually, but mostly because the servants seemed uninteresting to me.

Dull_Lull said:


Stop lying. If you were aware of all that, you wouldn't have said that in the first place.

Almost as if Saber vs Assassin wasn't about how different fighters think amirite? If you really wanna go there, Saber vs Diarmuid is literally just Saber vs Kojiro in a thematic sense about different fighters admiring each other's skill.

I had this impression you read the VN or something with the way you were talking but it seems I was mistaken and it's just pretentious talk. Shirou and Saber are literally parallels of each other. Meaning, they mirror each other's character and their relationship is built upon their mutual self-destructive ideals.

fuckgendo said:


oh my gODK EMNKLMCEKMCEK LMAO STOP. i know the whole vn i watched whole ass lets playes on it fucking HOURS of my time- even the porn scenes bruh.
but jesus christ even then I STILL DONT LIKE SHIROU AND SABER BC I JUST DONT LIKE THEM AS A COUPLE? WHY? BECAUSE ITS MY OPINION AND IT AINT THAT DEEP. me not liking 2 characters together isnt bc im not smart enough to understand them- but because i dont like prefer the two FICTIONAL characters having a more teacher/sibling type of relationship than a romantic/sexual one.

Dull_Lull said:


Luv, that's the point. Rin and Archer's relationship is messy because one is a cynical dude and the other is a stubborn woman trying to pull him to the right path. It literally mirrors her relationship with Shirou. That's what irks me when you said FSN doesn't have a good dynamic between masters and servants when literally everyone there is built upon something they relate to.

So basically, I don't like him just because. Okay... a very compelling argument. I concede.

One more thing, Shirou's whole appeal is that he's a broken individual who's trying to fill a void in his heart after borrowing his ideals from another person to somehow give his life some meaning.

Illya had one scene in UBW lul. I'd believe you if you're talking about HF.

Dull_Lull said:


ASDHSADMKXHZ luv, if you can't even back up your argument and resort to iTs mY opINion it Aint thaT dEep then stop replying to me and just quietly scoot over. You're the one who made a big ass claim in the first place and I simply responded.

Good job ignoring all the other points tho.

fuckgendo said:


yeah no i dont need to write a whole essay on why i dislike shirou. why? because hes a fictional character and i couldnt care less. its a fictional character from a show and hobby made for entertainment. and im not saying that multi-layered characters are boring or what not, i fucking love them and they can be incredibly relatable and interesting. i could give tons of examples of shows/characters that do that and why i love them for those reasons.

just because a character is deeply-layered or meaningful or whatever doesn't automatically make them interesting nor does it change the fact that they're a boring character: shirou. it's called opinions luv.

fuckgendo said:


you're deadass getting mad at me because i dont ship two characters. im literally crying

"ignoring all the other points" im not getting in a debate why id rather shirou score brunette pussy over blonde pussy.

Dull_Lull said:


ASDHSADMKXHZ luv, if you can't even back up your argument and resort to iTs mY opINion it Aint thaT dEep then stop replying to me and just quietly scoot over. You're the one who made a big ass claim in the first place and I simply responded since you seemed so disillusioned putting the other in a pedestal while trying to downplay another despite having almost the exact same thematic representations.

Good job ignoring all the other points tho.

Dull_Lull said:


Yikes so just as I expected, the opinions argument. Okay bye luv. You are entitled to your wrong opinion then and don't think I couldn't see through your lies lul.



Implying that's the point I was talking to. Come on now luv. Why would I argue about that when he gets different pussies in each route? lul

Nice try tho.

fuckgendo said:
i feel bad for op. it was THEIR thread and question and there's one guy who's attacking literally anyone with a negative opinion.

2life said:
Okay if you have seen Fate/ series you know what i talk about (no not liner prisma illya), the mc is first an insufferable slow sluggish weak ass dumb weak bitch and then in the last episodes he goes berserk and saves the day. Why does the Fate/ series set up such a annoying mc in the first place?

Remember when Shiro just couldn't use common sense?
Remember when Sieg just stood there ready to be killed?
Remember when Hakuno is just the most silent mummy you've seen?

I hope that one day the mc of Fate/ will just be normal humans with more reaction or just react in general.
Also i love how the mc in Fate/ evolves and can change, that's one point i DO love about Fate/. Their character development is present and satisfying in the end. (dont shit on me with "yeah that's the meaning of it" mc are just annoyingly sluggish, period).

Do you agree or do you love statues yelling "SEEEEIIBAAAAAA"

this thread is not for asking how or where to watch Fate/, thank you

14nigward69 said:

I'm assuming you've only seen fate/stay night, you need to watch fate zero and if you want to see a better side of shiro then watch the heavens feel movies

Stygian_Prisoner said:
Whelp, i'm admittedly a Fate newbie for now. I've only watched F/SN '06 so far and i liked it despite all the hate it gets, probably 'cause i haven't read the VN or watched the ufotable adaptations yet; will do so later.

I believe Shiro's attitude kinda makes sense, considering his heavy survivor's guilt and trauma and i understand why his development is slow. The source material is a multi-route VN with a length that rivals the Bible's, after all. The anime can't possibly shoe-horn that much character development in just 24 Eps.

Anyway, i think this thread has already done a good job of showing me a taste of the sort of interactions and discussions i can expect to see from this fandom.
I'll keep that in mind and consider staying away from it.

Dull_Lull said:


You're cute.

As if the OP is even here to "discuss" when literally he only responds to posts that agree with him lul.

I'm sorry I didn't join the circlejerk and actually tried to argue my own points man.

fst said:
personally the thing that always gets me about nasuverse in general is this



it's like fucking french english grammar where theres a million rules, but a billion exceptions for each and every rule.

A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said:

You just reminded me of something similar about how the series re-uses it's character designs all the time.



Like, it's not even about having a familiar face anymore. It just reads to me as peak laziness.

Dieshouri said:
Damn you all don't pay attention at all Shirou is easily one of Fate's most well written characters. The anime adaption isn't perfect but the amount of ignorance in this thread is pretty entertaining.

2life said:


care to explain? other than that i don't see any counter examples while i fully explain what i dont like. it is a matter of opinion if you like that way of character presentation.

instead of shitting on everyone here, just give us some explanation

JustAnotherAlias said:
My largest dislike with Fate, not counting the terrible spinoffs, nor the video games as i have not played thoose, my largest gripe is the structure of the three routes and the main charachter (I am only judging from the anime series, i have not read the VN)

The three routes offer three different stories, but the problem is Shirou sould not be the protagonist in all three of them, it simply does not fit in the Fate route nor of what i have seen in the Heavens Feels Movies, however his role as protagonist does fit in UBW.

The Fate route or the 2006 anime is pretty much about Sabre and not Shirou, in this route he gets no development and gets either kidnapped, beaten up, or gets in some sticky situation where Sabre has to rescue him due to his ineptitude. Sabre however would have gotten her own charachter arc.
Shirou has no antagonist to deafet in the Fate route unless you consider the last skirmish with him and Kirei a fight. Sabre has Gilgamsh albeit he shows up in the end.


Sabres journey in the Fate route is about finding value in yourself and be proud of the good you accomplished, her leadership failed and her kingdom was destroyed and she blames herself for it, therefore she wants the grail, not to just undo her past mistakes, but have someone lift the responsibility from her shoulders, at the end of the story she learns that even though she failed, she still managed to do her best and protect her kingdom for twenty agonizing years.
She rejects the grail knowing that no one else could have held that responsibiity that she had and instead of saving her kingdom she decides to save the people of the present by making sure the grail does not come in the hands of Kirei and Gilgamesh, thus when she deafets Gilgamesh in the end, a man who spits on her life choices and ideology and wants to humiliate and enslave her, she thematically proves that her ideas and life choices had worth to them by deafeting him with a manifestation of her dream world, making the arrogant god king acknowledge her with respect upon his death, atleast thats how i interpreted it.

Now what does any of this have to do with Shirou as a charachter, what does he contribute to the Fate route, as mentioned before he does nothing other than getting beat up and kidnapped and then somehow magically Sabre falls in love with him, for some reason. Clearly this route would either need some serious changes to make Shirou more active in his role as protagonist or just have Sabre be the protagonist.


Compare this to the UBW route, that is clearly Shirous story and is in my opinion far superior to the other routes becuase of that, while the build up to it was not that great, his fight with Archer is the peak of his charachter where he learns that even though following his dreams will most likely end in bitter dissapointment, he will still do it becuase he truely has a sincere wish to help other people and unlike Kiritsugu or Archer, he accepts that he might not succed but is willing to pursue his naive Dream regardless becuase he sees the value in it. This time however he will learn from Archers mistakes and not try to do it alone but togheter with Rin, atleast thats how i interpreted that fight.
It Is the best charachter development Shirou has ever gotten in all Three routes and while i haven´t seen all of Heavens Feel, i was told what happened by a friend of mine, and while i like Shirou faces a dilemma whether he should kill the one he loves to save many and then actually put his world view to the test, based on what i was told it didn´t seem to go anywhere and i would have preffered if Sakura was the portagonist in Heavens Feel as i think it would work better.


Then there is just the nature of it being split in diffrent routes just not being able to tell a coherent story, for example in Heavens feel Zouken actually does something by summoning Assasin becuase Shinji is incompetent, why did he not decide to do that in the other two routes?

If Illyas heart can trigger the Holy Grail to appear, why didn´t Gilgamesh and Kirei try to kill her in the Fate route?

And quite frankly, even though UBW is the best route for Shirous charachter, i just dont like him, his most "admirable" trait is his desire to rush in and save everyone around him, but personally i dont find rushing in to a situation where there is no way you can make a change heroic.
Lets put it like this, a policeman and some thug happened to be in a firefight, wouldn´t you let the policeman do his job or jump into the crossfire needlessly getting yourself killed? Most people would probally think the guy who rushes in to a firefight, unarmed and unprotected, to be quite stupid instead of beeing a tragedy, and thats how i view Shirou and is one of many reasons i dislike him which sours the experience of the three routes to me.

Hello iI you made it to the end, my unfiltered thoughts are not pretty I´m afriad

2life said:


Well excuse me, but i like to read the arguments and opinions people have. I see you just blandly attacking me as dumb? and a other user you keep harrasing with "luv" while that user DID say to stop that. Im sorry but if you continue to spout nonsense instead of accepting there are different opinions, i will contact the moderators

2life said:


Thank you for your view, that was almost what i tought, yet the way they present shirou is just slow and insufferable. in the end i hoped archer would have been serious and actually killed shirou in UBW.

i will watch heavens feel soon and hope to see your point there

Dull_Lull said:


Which areas?

Luv, Saber literally battles 4 out 6 servants and on multiple occasions each time and you say she doesn't battle much? Please... she fights the most out of everyone in that show.

The point here is that Fate itself is a character-driven show. Don't expect the characters to make the same "logical" decisions as you because they're their own persona.

Gilliesss said:

Did you pay attention to anything I said? It doesn’t matter if it’s a character driven show, the fact that the decisions the characters make hold back the show still stands. And I don’t want the characters to think like me. I want to think like a character I can enjoy watching, and there is nothing there to enjoy when the main characters is a self-insert which has been done hundreds of times already. Saber had good build up in Fate/Zero only to have her almost completely changed in fate UBW. Logical characters suck, but in a character driven show having the mic be only non-logical one is ridiculous. Even Shinji is a better written character than Shirou

2life said:


Thank you for your view, that was almost what i tought, yet the way they present shirou is just slow and insufferable. in the end i hoped archer would have been serious and actually killed shirou in UBW.

i will watch heavens feel soon and hope to see your point there

Dull_Lull said:


How does it hold back the show? How about you tell me that. How is the main character a self-insert? You don't spend a fuck ton of hours dissecting someone's survivor's guilt and PTSD and how it shapes his character only for that character to end up a self-insert. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Are you okay? What buildup? You mean being mischaracterized as a naive dumb blonde that literally goes against all her development and backstory? Luv Zero Saber is literally the most tragic representation of her character.

Now I know you're just trolling at this point. How am I supposed to take you seriously now? lmaooo

Saber had no reason to open up to Shirou in UBW. The only reason she got a lot of development in the Fate route in the first place is because they bonded enough for him to share the same dreams as Saber and find out about her tragic fall in Britain.

Dull_Lull said:


How does it hold back the show? How about you tell me that. How is the main character a self-insert? You don't spend a fuck ton of hours dissecting someone's survivor's guilt and PTSD and how it shapes his character only for that character to end up a self-insert. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Are you okay? What buildup? You mean being mischaracterized as a naive dumb blonde that literally goes against all her development and backstory? Luv Zero Saber is literally the most tragic representation of her character.

Now I know you're just trolling at this point. How am I supposed to take you seriously now? lmaooo

Saber had no reason to open up to Shirou in UBW. The only reason she got a lot of development in the Fate route in the first place is because they bonded enough for him to share the same dreams as Saber and find out about her tragic fall in Britain.

Gilliesss said:

What ptsd lol. His entire motivation is to be a hero

Dull_Lull said:


Yikes you lost me there luv.

Having an obsession with sacrificing his life because he deems it worthless, thinking he doesn't deserve to have fun when he realized he was enjoying Rin's company, his constant nightmares, his extreme devotion to ideals he never had in the first place, etc. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about at this point. I'm convinced you're just trying to ignore everything because you set your mind to it. Ironic coming from an Index stan.

Stout said:
Because you hate it and you love it.
Just like me I hate naruto and I love it.

Askaa said:


ummm you did not read the VN did you ?

because if you did not then i can see why you would hate shirou
in the anime they literally cut all his Internal monologues