Why is suicide considered a bad thing?

Baman said:
Have fun kid. Watch out for those tentacles.

katsucats said:
Do you mean the 'definition' of a number? The 'meaning' of life refers to a different semantic concept than the 'definition' of life. You are conflating two different definitions of the same word -- a semantic fallacy.

katsucats said:
1. Who are they?
2. Nature is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Bloodcalibur said:
Meaning:
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/meaning
1. what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import: the three meanings of a word.
2. the end, purpose, or significance of something: What is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of this intrusion?

A meaning or purpose for something can exist without the agent perceiving it.

I think at this point you're just avoiding admitting you're wrong on [yet another] debate and of course as usual doing your best on wiggling your way out.

Bloodcalibur said:
Did you really need to ask those questions, especially number 1? This just makes it apparent that you're running out of logic to use for your argument.

1. The person(s) committing suicide or deciding to commit suicide of course. But you already knew that.

Bloodcalibur said:
2. Yes, and that's exactly why I was referring to the nature of humans. It is in our nature to preserve our own lives. We humans have strong self-preservation mechanisms that make it difficult for us to commit suicide. But again, you already knew that.

Bloodcalibur said:
So now, yet again: To go against that to such a degree that one would commit suicide instead of handling life's problems by living through it can only stem from a 'quitting/giving up' thought process.

Bloodcalibur said:
But since you need to be educated on why this thread's topic question is actually far from being even somewhat intellectually profound, here are a few things for you to read up on concerning suicide psychology:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2314382/

Example excerpt:
Source: Page 239
"Suicide is man's great retreat from life. He has recourse to it when he feels no longer able to endure suffering in the present or pain in the future. It is therefore a failure of adaptation and constitutes a final regression from reality.

You should read on beyond that as well as it further elaborates on that based on observation of how people react to certain situations and which ones can cause thoughts of suicide and the thought process behind them.

Now if you will, it's 2 AM and time for Bianca to give me my late night blowjob. Have a good night and keep those thoughts of suicide aside to give way for more positive thoughts young grasshopper.

Trapalicious said:


I hope you're aware that makes you sound like a fucking moron.

Bloodcalibur said:

Example excerpt:
Source: Page 239
"Suicide is man's great retreat from life. He has recourse to it when he feels no longer able to endure suffering in the present or pain in the future. It is therefore a failure of adaptation and constitutes a final regression from reality.

katsucats said:
If you're arguing for definition #1, then you'd be right. But that's typically not what 'meaning' means when we say 'meaning of life' -- for that, we use definition #2. (Even if you want to claim victory with definition #2, it would be an empty victory. The definition/meaning of life is not what me and RandomChampion are contesting.)

Now as to definition #2: Please explain for us how exactly can there be objective significance?

RandomChampion said:
@katsucats & citizeninsane

OK, since I know I can sometimes suck at conveying arguments, let me try to start again and go from start to finish.

Let’s start with the original statement:

there is no meaning to life.

Let’s define what this statement means.

meaning
the end, purpose, or significance of something: What is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of thisintrusion? (dictionary.com)

So katsucats’ statement is saying, “there is no end, purpose, or significance of life”

Katsucats’ statement is claiming that there is no objective meaning of life. Objective meaning either exist or do not exist. They do not rely on the ability of the sentient being to discern them. The objective meaning of life can exist without us understanding it. And both katsucat's and I have agreed that unconditional imperatives can (hae the potential to) exist.

RandomChampion said:
Let me try to give an example of how this works. Let’s start with katsucat’s statement – “there is no meaning to life” – for this statement to be true, anything necessary for some objective meaning of life to exist, cannot exist. Concepts of God are bases for an objective meaning of life. Various concepts of God, including those that provide bases for objective meaning of life to, are not falsifiable. Therefore, this already shows how katsucats’ statement is logically unsound by itself.

RandomChampion said:
Bloodcaliber pretty much puts what I am trying to say consisely:
On the other hand, RandomChampion is saying that it can exist but what I think you might not be understanding with what he's trying to say is, he's implying that the "meaning of life" does not have to be an agent-dependent phenomena. He's implying it's possible that there might be a systematic, completely scientific, non-agent-dependent, albeit not discovered, reason for life in the multiverse.

RandomChampion said:
To be honest guys, your definition of meaning is the definition only in the parameters and methods of existentialism (check meaning (existential) on wikipedia if background info is needed). So, if you are using that definition of “meaning” to support the claim that “there is no meaning to life” is logically sound, then you would have to argue that the parameters of existentialism are absolute, which, I’m sure you’ll agree with me, are not.

RandomChampion said:
A completely logically-sound statement can, at the most, only claim that there might not be meaning of life. This is why the question of “what is the meaning of life” has been asked and discussed for centuries and not merely dismissed. Nobody would bother with such a question if the answer was logically (by logically, I mean the application of logic at the moment) “there is no meaning to life”. I know this isn’t an argument, but think about it guys. You think that such an apparent logical truth, able to be argued by some guys on an anime forum on the internet (no offense to anybody here) would evade many of the greatest minds of history? No it wouldn’t. Like I said, you argument stems from the existential belief.

RandomChampion said:
Since I used definition #2 in my post, I'd like to point out that A) it says "or" B) it can mean significance in the "grand scheme/narrative of things"/what-have-you

But yea, no agent perception required.

katsucats said:
There's no objective goal to life, no objective valuation for our experiences. If someone makes his peace with death, then that's more than what could be said for most of us. In fact, aren't each of us constantly --even if it's subconsciously-- wrestling with our purpose? Someone finds it and we call him a coward. Yet we all die someday. Having a short one does not mean having a bad one.

sydrian said:
everyone has a goal, you have many goals maybe you just dont know it yet but thats what it means to be alive you find yourself and fight tooth and nail for your dreams.
Your right its not about how long your alive but what you accomplish and the possibilities are endless you should do what you want for as long as you can.Leave your mark on the world and shape it into whatever you want.

sydrian said:
when your body gives up and its time for you to leave you you should think back and remember that it wasnt because you didnt have the mental strength or ambition to go on that your life is ending but because your bodies giving up. And that is what you make peace with.

DuckMan5148 said:
And what do you mean life doesn't have an objective goal? Speaking biologically, the goal to our life is to reproduce.

DuckMan5148 said:
In a less literal sense the goal to our lives can be what ever we wan't, and if you don't have any goals or values then you're already not living. Life is a beautiful thing, while the purpose of it may not be tangible, it is indeed there.

katsucats said:
Materialistic goals are merely temporary in nature and their significance are subjective. The value for accomplishments --yes, even death-- are subjective to the individual. There's no proof that length of life correlates with value (it is possible that a shorter life has higher value than a longer life).

What about dream i mean isnt there something special to life doing what you love? I mean like the love of your life its not about what your doing its why you do it right? Like the personal value it holds You take inspiration from the things around you and you apply it because you should want to dont you?
What if someone has the ambition to determine his own death and the mental fortitude to carry it out? An author writes the ending to his book -- he isn't forced to continue a story until he tires of it.

Num1dad_Asura said:
1) Because GOD doesn't want you cluttering up hell.

Num1dad_Asura said:
2) Because you live in a society, one cannot fend for themselves, the society (i.e the people) in which you reside (good or bad) had a hand as to why you're alive today. They had to sacrifice some aspect of their lives so that you may be able to live (whether you wanted to or not). Now your role should be to return something back to the society (i.e the people). Escaping this responsibility (i.e sucide), makes you nothing more than a selfish bastard.

Here is analogy: You already ordered and ate the food delivered, you can't just run away without paying the bill.

sydrian said:
It would be sad if someone wanted to end there life, authors write stories and end them so they can move on the characters in the story all continue to exist in there worlds and the author in his, Then they go on to pursue something else another story another chapter in there life.

DuckMan5148 said:
because #YOLO XD
And what do you mean life doesn't have an objective goal? Speaking biologically, the goal to our life is to reproduce.

In a less literal sense the goal to our lives can be what ever we wan't, and if you don't have any goals or values then you're already not living.

Life is a beautiful thing, while the purpose of it may not be tangible, it is indeed there.

Num1dad_Asura said:
Here is analogy: You already ordered and ate the food delivered, you can't just run away without paying the bill.

Legendre said:
@Katsu: Can I ask this without the implication that I want to discuss this? Is arguing on MAL merely a contest of who has the most free time on their hands? I feel like you've been sitting at your computer all day, responding to each and every person who expresses their opinion. Jesus man, lol..

katsucats said:
Quote where in the Bible (or your respective religious text) does it say suicide will make you go to Hell. (Hint: It doesn't.)


That's absurd. Ordering food explicitly determines a contract. Not only does life not, but the value of life is intangible -- the mere act of living does not contribute any tangible value to society. Secondly, people who have invested in your life have succeeded; the caveat to life is that it occurs until it doesn't. No one would pressure a cancer patient to pay his dues. A person's death does not devalue his life up to that point.

sydrian said:
Im saying you shouldnt give up on yourself, your probably a wonderful person

sydrian said:
Why cut it short before seeing everything.

sydrian said:
Cuz your never going to have a meaningful ending if there wasnt something wonderfull before it.

Num1dad_Asura said:
Trust I am sure a cancer patient would know the importance of living a hundred times better than you.

Num1dad_Asura said:
This cancer analogy you keep bringing up, you make it sound like this said cancer patient would give up and look at the clock for the end to come. From experience with a cancer victim myself, he did not just wait for the end to come, he wanted to make amends before the end because he realized how important it was to return back all the favors and debt he has left and cause as less burden as possible to the people around him when he left.

Num1dad_Asura said:
So that one day in the future when the people that cared for him can say, "he was a great guy". Not doing this and committing suicide only will leave the people that looked and cared for you with guilt, suffering, and regret and only will a self-centered bastard commit this atrocious act.

Num1dad_Asura said:
Since you mentioned the word "invest", remember for "rational people", All investment are made expecting a return (basics of economics) and this return is garnered through what is called "living", like it or not.

Remember your life from the moment you're born does not belong only to you.

Agnostos said:
Surprised that this is still going on. Easy to tell that people have become too sheltered and taken life for granted when they have to ask why voluntarily ending life is a bad thing.

katsucats said:
I'd almost say people have become too sheltered and take life for granted when they don't ask or deliberate why voluntarily ending life is a bad thing. In any period of historical turmoil, people have voluntarily given up life for a myriad of reasons, such as samurais disrespecting their master, a king who has failed his duties, or spiritual ascetics who have attained enlightenment. People who take life for granted assume living must be for the sake of living, that there can't be any other higher subjective purpose.

Agnostos said:
and they are indifferent to the people who have sacrificed to make their life possible in the first place.

katsucats said:
Would you also use this logic when it comes to choosing a career or a wife?

Agnostos said:
You're going to have to elaborate, since I don't know what you mean by that.

katsucats said:
If your parents brought you into this world --if repaying society was so important-- you'd listen to them when you're alive, not just when you're contemplating death. If you love a girl, and your parents say no, then you would choose your parents over your girl. If you were consistent, that is...

katsucats said:
This is pointless. 3 things you should admit to:

1. Any attempt to specify the state of mind of a whole group of people is a generalization.
2. There is no definable ideal state of mind, so all action can be considered "failures of adaptation". Rather, there is no epistemic way of knowing.
3. Characterizing suicide as "giving up" assumes a prescription that we should aim to live in life. Your "self-preservation mechanism" shows that you are committing the naturalistic fallacy, confusing a natural description for a prescription.

Katsucats said:
If you're arguing for definition #1, then you'd be right. But

Bloodcalibur said:


Anytime someone explains to you why your conclusions are wrong you shrug off any piece of information or study that supports it and then resort to reaching logic that is far from correct.

Generalization? How about the only time a person can conclude suicide as a solution is if they're completely indifferent to life and death and genuinely curious as to what death has to offer. Even then the person has to fight their self-preservation instincts. There needs to be something profound, and yes it has to be psychologically negative, in order for one to kill themselves.

Source: http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2009/06/sci-brief.aspx
The two psychological states are perceived burdensomeness and a sense of low belongingness or social alienation. In answer to the second question regarding capability for suicide, self-preservation is a powerful enough instinct that few can overcome it by force of will. The few who can have developed a fearlessness of pain, injury, and death, which, according to the theory, they acquire through a process of repeatedly experiencing painful and otherwise provocative events. These experiences often include previous self-injury, but can also include other experiences, such as repeated accidental injuries; numerous physical fights; and occupations like physician and front-line soldier in which exposure to pain and injury, either directly or vicariously, is common.

Education is great you know Katsucats.


I'd be right on definition #2 as well.
When life first spawns on a planet and an entire ecosystem and food chain is developed where every organism serves a purpose within it to make it work without those organisms being perceptually aware of it, that is a possible example of objective purpose. And if you tell me that because every event that happens in the universe is a result of chaos, I will say, how do you know that everything isn't formed through that chaos in order to make the system work? By that premise then everything in the Universe has a purpose, an objective one.

Agnostos said:

You seem to be looking for some absolute standard; there is no such thing. Everything is determined by circumstances.

Living is typically not that difficult. It's quite a different question to ask someone to keep living, (Especially when no one truly wants to die in the first place), than to ask them to do something which will dictate the rest of their lives. The price of one is much lesser than the other. Whenever the price outweighs the indebtedness, then people will refuse...but that all depends on what their values are and how much they feel they are indebted.

katsucats said:
I'm not.

Don't worry, I don't intend to.

There's no point in a meaningful ending. Despite that one-more-time thinks it's cliche, what matters is the journey, not the destination. What's "wonderful" is a state of mind, not any actual event, which is why as long as the narration makes sense, the plot doesn't really matter.

MasterTengkorak said:
Here's a bad example of suicide, a 14-year-old in Russia jump off a building because his Naruto character died. True story.

Of course, death is inevitable but we gotta make our lives worth walking this earth, such as getting a good education, a good career, and a good family until we grow too old to do anything and retire, and wait for death to come.

sudrian said:
its not cliche

everyone deserves to be happy and alive and they have to make that happen for themselves

i just dont understand why someone would throw there life away

think of all the amazing things you would leave behind

Suicide is never the answer.Ever.

sudrian said:
its not cliche

everyone deserves to be happy and alive and they have to make that happen for themselves

i just dont understand why someone would throw there life away

think of all the amazing things you would leave behind

Suicide is never the answer.Ever.

sydrian said:
Suicide is never the answer.Ever.

JennyEsquire said:

That depends what your problem is.

Lt_Spinzaku said:
"There's no objective in life". Why, yes there is. Our biological purpose, objective, and reason for living is to reproduce and pass down our traits.

one-more-time said:

Me having billions of neurons, while nature has none. Explain to me why I shouldn't be a bit cynical about nature's brilliance?

one-more-time said:

Please, explain.

I might sound like one to people driven by emotions not their mind.

Supa-Hacka said:
I think the biggest problem with this is morals. People consider this morally wrong and that comes from their core belief, religion.