KATANAGATARI
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| the ending was perfect for me right as he sounded his final attack. Togame's death didnt make me sad, but i shed a tear as he screamed cheerio. His way of carrying out her wish by having her phrase known to be the attack that killed the shogunate. And that even tho she was gone, he still held held a fond memory of her, even wearing her hair around him. a good show |
| Seriously, how could it end like this? Wasn't the princess the one that gave the order to kill Togame?! Why was she even alive at the end :S |
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Ryoujin said: Seriously, how could it end like this? Wasn't the princess the one that gave the order to kill Togame?! Why was she even alive at the end :S I think the order may have been given by the Shogunate. dont hold me to it tho. |
Zergneedsfood said: It was already made clear her motivations since episode 1, avenge her father's death. I don't know why people would do a 180 degree turn and say it was uncalled for. Everyone knew that Togame acted out of revenge. Yeah some random ninja said that in the beginning to buy some time. Over the course of the journey Togame repeatly stated that she doesn't hold a grudge against him and that it wouldn't make sense to begin with since it was his father (which Shichika even killed himself). You might still believe she had some hidden agenda the whole time, but what bad storytelling is this, never hinting the posibility at all just to pull it out right at the end. It's the kind of trick bad detective stories play out to fake depth where none is. So this is either bad storytelling or out of character. Same with the princess. Shichika states at the showdown he has only enough energy left to kill one person, so it comes down the that random fat shogun that never made any difference the whole time, or the princess that was scheming against the two from the beginning and very possible was the one who ordered her slave to kill Togame (the pistols came from her at the very least). Since in the end he obviously fully recovered, there's realy no reason why he couldn't have killed both or at least parted ways. And didn't he say he just came to die? To continue traveling with the nemesis of his lover doesn't make any sense. The last two episodes turned this from a 10/10 to 8/10. And it's not like I want a happy end no matter what, but that was not a good tragic ending. Especially giving the penguin boy a headshot was totaly unnecessary. |
| Thanks " Zergneedsfood" now I understand a little better the end.... |
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| Wow. So Togame gets the longest, most cliche, nonsensical and unhelpful death scene in the history of anime ever. We went through a battle with a sword per month, just so Shichika could defeat them all in one episode. Ultimately the collection of the swords (and the deaths of countless people) were for nothing, because nothing changes. And then Shichika forgives Princess Hitei, who has done a 180 personality-wise, and they go and travel. What a clusterfuck. Anyway. The series had good art and nice animation. Music was nothing special. The show also gets major props for some daring choices: "generous" dialogue; not showing the fight with Sabi in episode 4; the yandere twist with Nanami; the horrible death of Pengin; and killing Togame at the end, therefore negating a happy ending between her and Shichika. However that doesn't make up for the generic plot, falsity (IMO) of the relationship between Togame and Shichika, and not enough characterisation to flesh out the side characters and make them more than This Month's Villain. Emonzaemon was probably the most intriguing side-character but even he wasn't really given enough depth. I also mentioned this to someone, but I've realised that episodic "capture" anime (like this, Kobato. and Kaminomi) aren't my cup of tea. Overall, I'm giving it 5/10. It was going to be 6 but this last episode shat over everything. I don't know, I might change my mind later. |
| Oh yes, finally not another fake death! 8D Although their talk was a little drawn-out, and the pawns upon pawns upon pawns started to be boring pretty quick. But MAN, was Shichika's seiyuu good o.o CHEERIOOOOO! |
- If you believe this place holds you, it is a prison. If you do not wish to leave, it will become a fortress. Current icon: Kusuriuri from Mononoke by pana (LJ username) |
| Pathetic Anime.. Wasted My Time.. 1 On my list. I really think that in the end.. Everything that Togama told Shichika was something like a desperate attempt to relief his pain for her certain death.. Because she really cared for him.. I'm sorry if I don't share your Idea of a "Good Ending".. To me, good ending means that the heroes of the history have a Happy ending. Both heroes ended up bad.. Togame Dead and Shichika devastated by sadness. How can this be a Good Ending? You're all insane.. To me, a good ending would be: Togame realizes that her revange is meaningless, they recognize their love for each other, Give up the swords to Hitei who deals with the Shogunate on her own and Togame and Shichika live happly ever after traveling and drawing maps.. That's a good ending.. It's stupid to me to read all these posts criticizing people that didn't like the ending. I'm sorry if it's not part of my culture to take Bloodish and sad endings as "Good Endings" I respect the opnion of people who liked but I hated it. I feel like I wasted my time watching 12 long episodes for a horrible ending like that.. |
ticorj said: Pathetic Anime.. Wasted My Time.. 1 On my list. Ok, not liking the ending myself either, but is it justification enoguh to rate the whole show 1? You've come this far, so the journey should've been enjoyable for you, isn't that worth anything? |
nznznz said: ticorj said: Pathetic Anime.. Wasted My Time.. 1 On my list. Ok, not liking the ending myself either, but is it justification enoguh to rate the whole show 1? You've come this far, so the journey should've been enjoyable for you, isn't that worth anything? I don't rate the animes by analysing art, music, history and etc separately.. I rate the animes I watch by the overrall experience I feel when watching them.. To me, the ending defitely ruined MY experience. Even if the beggining felt good, the history as whole was ruined (In my perspective) by the sad ending. Even if I said I would rate it 1, I ended up rating it 2 (Horrible) because that's how I feel remembering how sad the history ended turned out to be... I feel horrible... :( |
| I didn't find Togame's death to be particularly sad, compared to some other tragedies. It was more dramatic/epic than tragic, like a hero's final heroic death scene in some medieval war movie as he's been cut and stabbed many times and has been bleeding for a while, yet keeps fighting until victory, and then finally gives some final happy words. It wasn't a sudden death, which would naturally be more shocking. Instead, a large portion of the episode was their lengthy final conversation, which was almost a grief counselling session that helps you to accept the death, have some closure, and see that all the experiences they had are not lost with her death. Life goes on for Shichika and he is a better, stronger person than he was before they ever met. Also, Shichika wasn't horribly grief-stricken. He didn't break down screaming and saying "why?!" or anything to that degree which would have the effect of making the audience sadder. His focus was on listening to what she had to say and making the most out of their last moments while coming to grips with it all. When it was all over, his sadness was quickly overtaken by rage. So the audience isn't left to dwell on feelings of sadness, but rather are rooting for him to kick some butt on his rampage. At the very end, I found it actually ended sort of happily, although of course bittersweet. This is because he ends up traveling with the princess whose personality is very much like Togame's. They both are a type of tsundere that feels they deserve to be the boss and never have their judgement questioned, but childishly pout when someone like Shichika questions them and embarrasses them. They are like twin sisters in world only big enough for one of them. Friendly arch-enemies. I sort of feel like Togame and the princess almost share the same life, and that Togame will live on through the princess's experiences with Shichika. And Shichika isn't left devastated by the loss of Togame. He is moving on. And better yet, it seems the princess will fill the void left by Togame's death. |
Timofmars said: At the very end, I found it actually ended sort of happily, although of course bittersweet. This is because he ends up traveling with the princess whose personality is very much like Togame's. They both are a type of tsundere that feels they deserve to be the boss and never have their judgement questioned, but childishly pout when someone like Shichika questions them and embarrasses them. They are like twin sisters in world only big enough for one of them. Friendly arch-enemies. I sort of feel like Togame and the princess almost share the same life, and that Togame will live on through the princess's experiences with Shichika. And Shichika isn't left devastated by the loss of Togame. He is moving on. And better yet, it seems the princess will fill the void left by Togame's death. Nice Thought. That's sort of comforting.. Although I really liked Togame so it kind of pisses me of to see her die.. |
| Katanagatari had lovely art, character designs and an OST. Still I never got into it, and it reminded me a bit about Bakemonogatari with the mindless chatter in every episode. Plus Togame's death scene has got to be the longest death scene I've ever watched. The ending left me feeling unsatisfied. Maybe because you don't really know what happens to Shichika afterwards or maybe because the narrator said maybe he died on the side of a street (wth ;__;). But also I found it hard to relate to most of the characters. Not because I didn't like them, but they just felt so one sided. Anyway I'd say 7/10 for me because I still enjoyed Shichika's character even though Togame annoyed the hell out of me. ticorj said: Even if the beggining felt good, the history as whole was ruined (In my perspective) by the sad ending. Even if I said I would rate it 1, I ended up rating it 2 (Horrible) because that's how I feel remembering how sad the history ended turned out to be... I feel horrible... :( This is one thing I like about anime. Not all of them end with "and they lived happily ever after" like Disney movies. Some of my favourite series such as Code Geass and Fullmetal Alchemist didn't have a super happy ending, but doesn't mean I start calling them bad because it didn't go my way. They're still great imo. Silly of me to compare anime to real life, but if everything had a happy ending it would be realistic in a sense... |
| I liked this episode the most, because it was more action oriented. I prefer fighting over talking. Score: 6/10 |
Wing_Goddess said: This is one thing I like about anime. Not all of them end with "and they lived happily ever after" like Disney movies. Some of my favourite series such as Code Geass and Fullmetal Alchemist didn't have a super happy ending, but doesn't mean I start calling them bad because it didn't go my way. They're still great imo. Silly of me to compare anime to real life, but if everything had a happy ending it would be realistic in a sense... "and they lived happily ever after" was just an example. Of course I wouldn't want fairy Tale stuff like Disney's but also must not be desastrous like it was.. We see desasters and sad things happneing every day in real life.. Just turn on your TV on the news.. I'd like to run away from all that when I'm watching my animes.. |
Zergneedsfood said: The words right out of my mouth.So I've been hearing a lot of jack about how the ending was bad. And I guess the common reasons are as follows: Togame A lot of people ended up saying that Togame's confession that everything was used as a pawn for her revenge ended up killing her character or at least was confusing. I read an interesting argument that her emotions were all something that was fed by her higher ambitions for revenge, and how it was disappointing to see that the growth that Shichika and Togame felt together was for naught in Togame's case. And while it's a fair argument to make, let's remember that the story was not about developing Togame as a character, though that was simply something that was cool. Instead, it was a journey through which Togame's experiences taught Shichika humanity, turning from a sword into someone who felt genuine and true emotions. Shichika himself admits that if Togame was lying, then what were all the emotions that he'd been feeling. Togame's growth in this sense, was not necessarily learning emotions, because that makes no sense. Instead, it was the fact that she and Shichika shared genuine emotions. Regardless of whether or not they were manipulated by a "higher" power is irrelevant because Togame's portrayal of those emotions hints that she doesn't even know she's being used by her own revenge. In many ways, Togame's "betrayal" is the climax of her character arc (which makes sense because she dies afterwards). It was already made clear her motivations since episode 1, avenge her father's death. I don't know why people would do a 180 degree turn and say it was uncalled for. Everyone knew that Togame acted out of revenge. Her acceptance of her death and her thankfulness at not having to kill Shichika is enough for any viewer to see that Togame was genuine with her feelings. Shichika Most of the complaints come from 1) His uber beast mode that killed the story because Shichika just became all powerful at the end or 2) the fact that the fight scene with the faceless guy seemed like it was a rushed job by the animation crew. First off, his beast mode wasn't necessarily that "beast". Going through thsoe 12 henchmen was basically pretty damn easy becausen one of them were anywhere close to the foes he had fought int he past. In terms of fighting Emonzaemon, there was an argument made at how Shichika was wounded very little in the past (like the breaking of an arm....wait how is that little) and was forced to withdraw.I'd have to disagree. Shichika withdrawing from battle had nothing to do with personal injuries, but more with Togame stepping in and stopping him. Let's remember that getting stabbed multiple in the arm by Kunai stopped hurting after 10 minutes. Shichika was already powerful. And in terms of the fight with Emonzaemon, I'd like to remind everyone that Katanagatari has less to do with the actual fighting and more to do with the internalization of the characters. The fights that are carried out throughout the story have very little to do with the actual fight and more to do with the development of characters. The fighting vs the 5th sword was a fight of love. The one vs. that little loli girl was about learning defeat. The 11th sword was testing new boundaries. The fight with Emonzaemon started out with a flurry of movements that weren't flashy at all. As the fight dragged out, that was when the animation became something produced by a rushed animation team. But I saw it differently. I saw it as a process that established Shichika as the completed deviant blade. Both of them shared more casual blows in the beginning. But what came down to it was the 12th sword vs the 13th sword, a test of whose is better. Also, as a side note. For people who think that Shichika was being stupid for saying he wanted to die.....yeah. I saw his proclamation to die less of a "I'm going to stand here and let you kill me". It was more of a "I'm going to see if it is even possible for me to die" type of mentality. Him taking of all of Emonzaemon's bullets was a realization at that point that Shichika had no possible way of dying. And finally: Hitei Probably hardest to defend. Most people are pretty WTFBBQ and why Hitei is traveling with Shichika near the end. Most people are wondering why she isn't even dead. But let's look at that. People also comment on her....renewed personality. Let's look at things: 1. Shichika didn't choose to travel. Hitei did. Her motivations are always confusing and always in the interest of trolling the audience. But while her motivations are masked, it's clear that she has some form of connection with her grandfather's last invention. You'd think you'd want to keep an eye out on your last link to your ancestry, so that explains a part of Hitei's motivations. Another reason is simply because since the Owari shogunate is gone, she has nothing better to do. Even if none of those satisfy you, as a plot device, having Hitei travel with Shichika is pretty appropriate. Shichika's arc has basically been a theme of life and death. Togame's one positive impact on Shichika is that she's made him human. Shichika's travels with Hitei represents another cycle of life and death, a symbol of Shichika's humanity and acceptance with death, and his determination to continue with it. 2. She's not dead because she doesn't deserve it. End of story. 3. Her enthusiastic personality was always there. If you just watch you'll see that it was just more reserved. I give this series...9. I was gonna give it a 10, but I think I feel rather bitter about Togame; death and confession. I started to like her slowly, but in this episode, she tells us that it was all a scheme. It was rather confusing or that I didn't want to believe it. Besides, she had her "scheming eyes" on when she was saying all that. So I wasn't sure how I'd feel...I was sad, and yet felt upset at the same time. Anyways...about Hitei. I don't really see anything in their relationship. A new found friendship would be likely, but nothing romantic...I suppose. Besides, Shichika isn't a guy to play around unless it was Togame. And being the simple-minded guy that he is, I believe, if his love for Togame was real, then he'd have those feelings for a life time. And as for Hitei, seeing she still has Emonzaemon's mask, I think she doesn't really hate him, rather she's quite fond of him. As she was with him for a long time, I think by that amount, she'd be attached to him, even if she thinks he was annoying. She needed something to do, she needs someone to protect her, and since Shichika's the only one left who knows her, she follows him around. Shichika on the other hand, needs money, so for her to be useful, he uses her for that. (and he did ask if she hated Togame, and she answered that she didn't "dislike" her. I think with that, he came to understand her) They need each other that way, so as to say. Aaah...kinda slow on explaining here...since I still feel rather empty after finishing the series. I don't know how I can get over it. /sigh. |
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| I didn't like the end. Not because of Togame's death, but because of how she died. The entire first half of the episode didn't seem anywhere near dramatic enough to the point of making it look as though that's simply because Togame wont actually be dieing. 2nd half was extremely good though. But really, I don't see a good enough reason for Togame to have died. Pretty much dropped this anime's score for me right there and then. |
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| What seems clear to me after watching this episode is that Shikizaki Kiki was trying to destroy his swords. What I don't know is why. Shichika's purpose was not to kill the shogun, Emonzaemon could have done that at any time. As the only person immune to the swords' poison and the complete 13th blade, he was the only one who could accomplish the task. That's why Emonzaemon said that if he killed Shichika, Shikizaki's plan would fail (since Entou Jyuu would remain). The whole deal with the alternate timelines was already resolved before the story started. Shikizaki derailed history with the deviant blades in the sengoku period. Togame's father tried to reverse the damage, but he failed. Killing the shogun in the current time wouldn't do anything, but it was a symbolic end to Shichika's story because the shogun originally ordered Mutsue to kill Togame's father, setting in motion the entire story. |
| What an "EPIC" episode to end a "GREAT" series. I started watching this with no expectations as I had heard very little of it before, but was recommended to me. I enjoyed it right from the beginning and it was consistently enjoyable throughout the whole series. Imo, what makes this series shine are the characters and their developments, without going into detail, I was really drawn into the characters and "felt" for them. The last episode can only be described as "EPIC", I was hoping the finale would be a good one, and I was not disappointed. Overall rating: 9.4/10 |
Will you be able to do.... what must be done? |
Galiger said: I enjoyed it right from the beginning and it was consistently enjoyable throughout the whole series. Imo, what makes this series shine are the characters and their developments, without going into detail, I was really drawn into the characters and "felt" for them. It's been a couple months since I watched this, but I remember how dialog-heavy it was. I don't remember what all that dialog was about, but I do remember enjoying it thoroughly. Their travels really felt like an epic adventure with all those varied locations and landscapes, and different societies living the different lifestyles of the era. I also liked the fact that they were real world places and that they actually let you know their travel plans well in advance instead of randomly showing up in new places each episode. That little detail helps with the immersion level. I think I'd like to see more shows that take you along for the ride like this, with emphasis on the dialog and adventure rather than on combat and some people who need saving. I think I'll have to make Spice and Wolf a higher priority on my plan-to-watch list, since that apparently is a dialog-heavy adventure involving a traveling merchant. I hear it actually gets into a good amount of detail regarding trade, which I think I'll enjoy getting immersed in. |
| Shichika certainly mastered the use of catch phrases: "CHEERIO!" -Yasuri Shichika First used incorrectly by Strategist Togame, it is a foreign word that means goodbye. Made famous by Yasuri Shichika who bellowed it as he split the eighth shogun and his castle in half. Ironically, the phrase that Tobame was going for was "CHESTO!", which is an actual war cry originating from the Satsuma domain. "However, by that point you'll have been torn to pieces."-Yasuri Shichika The catchphrase of Shichika, he often used it while bragging to his opponents before battle. Lately it's been used to tell off a certain princess who has been stalking him. Apparently, his resolve to save her from bandits is quite small. |
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| That "Cheerio!" was great, it was also used correctly. Ah, Hitei trying to take Togame's place, I'm okay with that. It's all good. |
| I had to cry when Togame died, well not when she died but when they talked. In the end Togame was just using him (and herself)? I don't really get it but it was so sad for Shichika :( Poor poor Shichika... He still loved her after all she had said to him, I felt so sorry for him! Shichika going full out was epic. Pure epic-ness _O_ The 10th(?) swords, the one without a blade was really funny but the last fight was really something else. It was really good. I didn't liked it that Hitei was with him at the end, she shouldn't be but oh well, Shichika seemed kind of happy so it's all right. I didn't quite understood the whole "change the history" stuff but I'm glad Shichika prevented it :) It was a really good anime with a surprising ending, 9/10 ^^ Too bad it's over now though |
| Fucking amazing. 10/10 I did feel a bit sad for Togame's death but it just made everything all the more better. Shichika beast mode was awesome. This is definitely going to my top 5. |
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Hageshiikaze said: The ending was way way weak... The ending fights lasted seconds and were really corny. Its hard to believe a story that relied solely on character interaction and dialog would put its characters through a journey like that only to off one in the end. Sure watching a relationship grow between two characters and having one die in the end isn't a new concept but they had to add quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen...ending with the antagonist and cause of the tragedy getting along with the other protagonist like nothing ever happened. The first 10 episodes were way too light hearted for that kind of outcome. Ohhhh, and the last of the 12 swords....really...a gun with infinite bullets? I'll just ignore the last 30 seconds of 11 and most of 12 and give it an 8, I did enjoy the thousand castle guards getting destroyed, and the pansy shogunate. For all the people trying to justify the ending, I'd love to read your responses to a season three of Spice and Wolf if Holo was to just die out nowhere in the end and everything goes on happily. Thank you. Took the words right off my mind. That pretty much described what I was feeling watching the last 2 episodes. I didn't like Togame's death.. I just think that it contradicted hers and Shichika's character and relationship development. If she lived to see the end of their journey, I would've put my money on her not being able to exact her revenge killing Shichika. To summarize all that long talk as she was dying. Both their feelings for each other were genuinely true, even if she says "words were all lies". For her character to say that she hasn't changed at all from the very beginning is a very weak statement. During the last few episodes shes shown that she's very human and was not as cold-hearted as she used to be. She let Pengin live even though she says it has other benefits by doing so. And while at the Maniwa village she says she feels sympathy for the victims of the senseless killing. Throughout their adventure they've seen a lot of mindless carnage and shes showing that she's grown tired of it. As much as we're told that everything Togame was doing was for the sake Shichika developing his own humanity... is a complete utter bull. Shichika has changed Togame as a person and a human being. It is not the audience forgetting Togame's main objective was "revenge" in the first place. Rather its the story disregarding the changes that happened during that one year. So I stuck through watching the final episode hoping that at least Shichika will take everyone down and die in peace to join Togame in hell.. and what do you know.. Blondie survived, the building didn't collapse, and our hero didn't even bleed to death after exhausting himself and receiving all those bullet holes in his body.. And so.. we're left with our main character continuing his journey with the person who ordered the death of his own beloved Togame? And this is supposed to be humorous with the way shes acting like Togame around Shichika? I'm not asking for a happy ending. I'm fine with a tragic one, but when I'm fed with BS that doesn't even make sense. Thats when I end up ranting and posting text walls. ^_^" I was ready to give this anime a 9/10 but the last 2 episodes disappointed me to the core.. so I'm giving this one a 7/10. |
| I'm a bit of a hollywood girl here, I would have loved at happy ever after for Togame and Shichika. Tears in my eyes during her death scene. Besides that an amazing show, easily one of the best I've seen. |
Scepth said: It is not the audience forgetting Togame's main objective was "revenge" in the first place. Rather its the story disregarding the changes that happened during that one year. Even the viewer had no reason to believe that revenge was Togame's objective. The only one ever bringing that up was the ninja right at the beginning. He was about to be defeated so in this situation he would've said anything to get out alive. But Togame herself never made it a secret and even stated that there was no reason to be mad at Shichika since it was his father. And he even slayed said father himself, so any desire for revenge she might had was satisfied. For me there was no question that this topic was done and from that point on the show never hinted anything else in that direction. Ff she decided to ambush him at the end then only for other reasons (e.g. claiming the succes for her own), but the feelings she developed on the journey would've prevented such. I can only see her saying those thing to ease his pain, so he wouldn't mourn her death, but she must've relized that didn't work too well. Eventually she only wasted the last moment with her lover. I could've accepted that, but as you said the rest of the episode and the ending in particular were BS. |
| EPIC Anime is EPIC!! 10/10 renjikuchiki1 said: so.... Togame is dead huh? well..... there goes all those hours watching these episodes... honestly, this is such a load of bull..... it had promise at the start, but with an ending like that, i have to say this series gets a 1 on my list if you want happy ending go watch disneys cartoons! Cheerio!!! |
batman3456 said: possible endings I would have liked: 1. Togame dies. Revenge kills and dies in the process (cowboy bebop style). 2. Togame dies. Revenge kills everyone and ending of him teaching kids cheerio while traveling. 3. Togame dies. He commits sepaku. (RJ style) 4. Go out guns and blazing together against the emperor. Dying in the process 5. Both live happily together after he kills everyone. However, I got the worst possible ending. I feel a bit similar xD.. I've read all the explanations on this page above and I'm still not quite satisfied although I do get your points there. I don't get Princess Hitei's ending at all, she ordered Togame's death, does it matter whether she is the root of Togame's sufferings, she died on Hitei's orders, that should be enough a reason for Shichika to kill her too. ("It's your fault that she's dead but you don't hate her, so I guess that's okay.") <- WTF? It seems like telling Shichika she "didn't dislike Togame" has saved her life and despite her having kept Emonzaemons mask, there was no hint of her being sad about his death at all. D: No matter how I see it I cannot sympathize with her. Sure she said "I'll let you kill me" but you sort of have to be prepared to die if you order to have people killed. Her motives to follow Shichika in the end make sense to me (what else has she left?) but not why he lets her stay with him. So I'm still like WTF about the ending (and I mean just the last few minutes of Shichika's map drawing journey) |
eefichanMar 18, 2011 12:53 PM
Zergneedsfood said: If you argue that killing the Shogun was an act of revenge, you're wrong. Shichika had no intention of avenging Togame's death. What was it then? You just said he killed the swords and Shogun because they were the true reason for Togame's suffering. Killing them accomplishes nothing else then extracting revenge because the harm is already done. What other reason could he have? The shogun send her on a mission to collect swords and his servants wielded them. You can't blame them for anything that happend. We don't even know if the Shogun wanted Togame's death but we can be certain that it was Hitei that relayed/gave that order to Emonzaemon. Zergneedsfood said: There's also no way that Shichika would prevent Hitei without killing her Are you kiding? If someone follows you the only way to get rid of them is murder? Seriously? Zergneedsfood said: 1. The only reason why people think that Togame shouldn't have died is because at the very core they're disappointed that Shichika and Togame didn't get together. Whatever justifications stem from that is up in the air, but that's the ultimate complaint. Once we establish that, then there's no real justification for why Togame shouldn't have died. -- People don't understand the ending precisely because there's an internal need for justice. Hitei suffers little. She gets what she wants, and those around her that she sees as nuisances and obstacles are removed. While this is probably part of the anger, it's way to easy to reduce it to that. A show that resolves around two main characters can't just end with one of them randomly dying. We spend hours watching characters grow and then one of them stumbles over a cliff and dies ~ The End. This is not a tragic ending, it's a writer having no idea. Zergneedsfood said: Togame said it herself in episode 1 when she thought of something along the lines of...."How can I avenge father if I die now?" You still persist on that first episode. When a show wants to make revenge its central topic, it needs to develop throughout the whole story. We only got a glimpse at the very first episode and then not only did they never focus it again but actually develop everything in the absolute opposite direction. You can say whatever you want, the end turns 180° without any build up or hints before. The real disappointment is that the show manged to stay on a high level the whole time but then relies on such a cheap move in the end. Zergneedsfood said: 2. Her death is a powerful statement. It's the ending of Shichika's life of someone else making choices for him. The story opens with Shichika and Togame sailing away and establishing four unbreakable rules that Shichika must follow. Their relationship ends with Togame saying that he no longer needs to follow all four. Remember guys, the story is not about Togame, but rather about Shichika's development as a human. In theory this could've worked out but we don't see any of this in the show. Her dead and last words are andom and meaningless. We never see how Shichika reacts other then going on a rampage. And how can you say the story is not about Togame? This is the classic couple growing on each other over the course of the journey. You can't reduce that to only one of them. |
Darklight0303 said: It's not that. It's just that someone doesn't know how to differentiate crap from gold.renjikuchiki1 said: so.... Togame is dead huh? well..... there goes all those hours watching these episodes... honestly, this is such a load of bull..... it had promise at the start, but with an ending like that, i have to say this series gets a 1 on my list FUnny. I would have dropped my score if Togame lived. Seems someone can't take a real ending. I didn't expect to like this kind of ending, as I usually don't, but this time I did. It was so well done, just like the troll in episode 4. I feel so down that it's ended... |
Zergneedsfood said: The show is about Kizi trying to change history so that Japan doesn't get overrun by imperial Europeans. What instead resulted was the Shogunate that now orders people like Togame around. Shichika did nothing else but attempt to change things back to their reverted status. That's what Kyoutouruu was designed to do. That's what it was meant to do. There's no revenge like implication because the show is not about revenge. Yes but what motivation does Shichika have to do so? Does he care about his predetermined destiny? Does he care about history and how it was supposed to be? I say no. He never had any interest in the swords or their meaning and while he learned something about his past, he only came along because of Togame. So after she died, what reason should he have to kill the Shogun? The harm is done and all of them were merely pawns in the game, including the Shogun. There is no true or false direction of time, the change happend long ago and this is what the world is now and it won't revert back even if you kill the Shogun, it just changes to something else. Shichika had no preference for one or the other. He literally charges in there with foaming at the mouth. Does he look reasonable? He says at the end that unfortunately he can only kill one of them, which isn't even true as we see later. Zergneedsfood said: Revealing revenge like that makes a show predictable and boring. If anything, the episode where she digs up her home foreshadows the regrets and bad feelings she still has. That's an example of where it builds. Her suppression of her feelings in episode...9 (the one with the lady that Shichika was getting it on with) is another example of foreshadow. Yeah if you do it like 90% of the stupid shounen shows then it's boring but the answer to that problem can't be to pull it out right at the end. This is just a cheap writers trick like deus ex machina. It doesn't supprise you like "Oh I didn't see that coming, ingenious!" rather then "Why would they do that?". I didn't even feel sad for Togame because it was so obviously done like a plot device. And I say it again. There's nothing wrong with tragic endings or main characters dying and I think it was clear this doesn't end well but all the dramatic build up just went to waste the moment Togame randomly dies. And instead they force-feed us this "epic" battle crap as an excuse for a real climax. The writer builds up something he was afraid to handle in the end and then chose the easy way out instead of resolving things in a satisfying way. A happy end would be too easy as well, before you imply I wanted that. Zergneedsfood said: And fifth, yes, writers can reduce that to only one of them. Once again, there are tons of examples but I don't want to spoil it just in case people are still watching. [..] Togame on the other hand, changes very little, and Shichika especially has no part in the changes that she experiences. She remains stagnant, the crafty woman who is planning to capture the swords and rise in power. Yes a writer can pull any crap he wants, but that doesn't mean it has to work and in this case it doesn't, at least for me and many others in this thread. I think you underestimate the power Shichika had in Togame's development. He did this unknowingly but his loyality and simple minded way changed her more then just falling in love and becoming jealous. |
nznzMar 23, 2011 2:23 AM
| I don't particularly like the ending, nor do I like a lot of aspects of the series, but Togame's death (though really, really long winded) was one of the highlights for me. Particularly when she mentions that she intended to kill shichika, and that she could separate her motivations and calculations from her emotions, and use her emotions as tools. It's not really consistent with the way her character was developing, but it was a really nice twist. I just don't understand what kiki is talking about. Japan is never really invaded or defeated until WWII. What is this 100 year crap? Perry? That's hardly...annihilating or conquering. |
| loved this ep, it is allways amazing to watch people fight when they are angry. also great for once i did not fell the ending was rushed. what togame said as her last word, her useing Shichika as only a tool till the end. i just see that as a lie, that might have been her original plan, but she changed and began to like him. i think she just said it so that he would not go rampage, and so that he would have an easy'er time letting go of her. bahh full of gramatic errors, i know. |
| . |
| Wow, talking about epic finale. I found Togame's death a bit drag out, and the fight against the deviant blades a bit repetitive. But Hitei saying that didn't dislike Togame and the ultimate cheerio were pretty awe aspiring. |
The ep was a strong 10, the series itself 9 This. I was planing on giving the series an 8 and going to bed after watching episode 11 but after the end part of it i just had to finish it (no, seriously I HAD TO! 'was like an addict attack) and the rating went up to 9. Just one more thing - when Togame was dying and talking about how she was using Shichika all the time (and planning to kill him) - was she serious about it? That was a serious mindfuck and I still wonder 'cuz in the begining I really believed in her (something like she was talking that so that he wouldnt mourn for her) but later on I got really confused. So she really was a cold-hearted and calculative bitch worthy of dying in such a way as she stated herself? Anyway this show was amazing (contrary to bakemonogatari that, believe it or not, I did not actually like). |
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| This episode was just epic. Togame's death took too long and it kinda got on my nerves, but oh well. Everything onwards made up for it though. 10th sword battle was funny :D |
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| And the award for the best last episode of an anime ever goes to... |
| My tastes > your tastes. |
| Well before posting I've read almost every comments in this tread... and here's my opinion: if what Togame said before dying (planning to kill Shichicka and the stuff...) was true and not just the mean to make Shichika accept her death then I've got to say: HER CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT CONCLUDED TO CRAP!!! i mean, at the start of the story Yes, i wouldn't be surprised if she plotted/did something like that, but as the story progressed she changed along with Shichika and I'm not referring to her getting more and more attached to him... Penguin said didn't he? that the old her would have definitely killed him and that she changed... and after all that, BAM! and she dies with that last words! WTF? i was like that o_O On the other hand, if it was the other way round, than it was the CRAPPY ENDING!! she dies and shichika's walking with Hitei... That aside no matter what everyone says, or Shichika himself, that slaughter was triggered by the filling of Vengeance from loosing the loved one, its just he didn't realize that himself or just didn't want to bring himself to acknowledge it... I mean, if not that, than why the hell did he destroy every sword along with the palace, why would he even bother to change the history, he didn't give a damn about everything all that without Togome, it's just doesn't make sense... --and the most importantly, when he took his stand for dealing the final strike, just before the final words and strike itself, Togames hair was shown which he brought along, thous showing the true face of the core reason for Shichika's actions... Okay even though I understand why he killed only Shogun, I just cant bring myself to swallow the last scene with Hitei and Shichika... Last words: I don't know how to describe it otherwise, but the most appropriate would be this: This Anime left a very bad taste... |
-Phantom-Apr 26, 2011 6:50 PM
| This anime was really bad... because it ended !(^-^*).. But i don't quite understand why Hitei Hime started stalking Yasuri-kun. Maybe she will be the substitute for Yousha Hime. But overall one of the best anime's in my opinion but i hate it because Yousha Hime Died and the ending left me puzzled. And LoL on the 10th Deviant Blade fight （￣ー￣）. |
オール・イズ・バニッティー  |
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