RealmOMFG said: @Manaban Thank you :) Ugh, I've had arguments like this too many times. I mean, if people are dead set on thinking of sex as some kinda disgusting animalistic desire that makes humanity worse somehow, then there isn't much we can really do to change that. But it's a way of thinking that I can't even begin to comprehend. To be honest, the only 2 things that are wrong when it comes to sexual pleasure is: 1.Rape And 2. Pedophilia. The rest is ok in my eyes even if I am not into it. Besides, why is Animalistic bad? That is just something I am wondering now. |
Bourmegar said: konkelo said: 90's Sailor Moon did have a gay male couple, Zoisite and Kunzite, and I don't remember those two being showed negatively, minus being part of bad guys. Utena didn't have male couple but with the TV series it does get hinted and portray of male sexuality is different from norm. Any actual good BL stories that don't feel like plot is written by horny woman will just stay as manga, but I personally don't feel GL stories are any better written. More so lesbian couples appear more often in regular shows and many GL stories don't get adaptations but just few popular enough. Well to be honest. NOT adapting Good BL Mangas (and others ofc) is just like Ignoring the big pot of gold that is in front of you. I mean there is a demographic that is just hungry for good BL Material (The Fuyoshis are most liky to watch and spread it) and willing to pay for it, why ignore them? Good BL Anime can shatter the negative image that Yaoi has, And If it is good then Word of mouth will do its Job (Like with Made in Abyss). heck Yuri on Ice qas very well recieved so why not make more good BL Anime? The Anime industry seems to be playing way to safe, not taking any risks whatsoever. I'm just not sure that the majority fujos even want what we'd call 'good' BL. That's the thing. Just like ecchi fans will usually not share the same concept of 'good ecchi series' that non-ecchi fans might wish for. There's a demand for smut and fetishization that's probably bigger than for sensibly-written same-sex romance. At least in Japan. Otherwise those types of manga wouldn't mostly be the only BL manga that get popular enough to get an adaption. The success of those titles compared to the other kind speaks volumes. And yuri isn't that different tbh. The shows you mentioned aren't really yuri, none of them even have as much as a shoujo-ai tag which speaks to how strong (or not) the presence of those aspects is in the show. They aren't 'yuri' anime, they are from other genres and just happen to include some amount of homosexual themes for various reasons, from complex thematic ones (utena) to light fanservice ones (kobayashi). I wouldn't really praise either of those FOR their shoujo-ai elements. They're just good shows who happen to have them as one of many things. That's pretty different from BL or Yuri. It's a bit like naming Akame ga Kill as a good BL anime because it has a gay character and that character was - imo - one of the best characters of the show. Still doesn't make it a great example of LGBT representation since he was only a minor part of it and there was basically no focus on his homosexuality. If you want to talk about yuri shows that actually focus on the relationships, stuff like Citrus or Netsuzou Trap come to mind, both of which aren't much less cringey than the average yaoi adaption. Also it is a myth that most fans are guys. Just most people who are active on forums are guys. If you go to a rl event there's at least as many girls as guys, if not more. How many more shows must be carried to success on the shoulders of the female anime fandom before people stop believing it is a completely male-dominated hobby? |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| It's all in your taste, if you find yuri good and yaoi gross then who cares. Just having a preference for seeing one gender or another is fine. Yuri is probably more popular just from the amount of guys watching anime who really are just there for the girls no matter what they're seeing. Boys never had the spotlight as far as I can tell. I go both ways I liked some male characters before but I lean towards the other side. |
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Pullman said: Bourmegar said: Well to be honest. NOT adapting Good BL Mangas (and others ofc) is just like Ignoring the big pot of gold that is in front of you. I mean there is a demographic that is just hungry for good BL Material (The Fuyoshis are most liky to watch and spread it) and willing to pay for it, why ignore them? Good BL Anime can shatter the negative image that Yaoi has, And If it is good then Word of mouth will do its Job (Like with Made in Abyss). heck Yuri on Ice qas very well recieved so why not make more good BL Anime? The Anime industry seems to be playing way to safe, not taking any risks whatsoever. I'm just not sure that the majority fujos even want what we'd call 'good' BL. That's the thing. Just like ecchi fans will usually not share the same concept of 'good ecchi series' that non-ecchi fans might wish for. There's a demand for smut and fetishization that's probably bigger than for sensibly-written same-sex romance. At least in Japan. Otherwise those types of manga wouldn't mostly be the only BL manga that get popular enough to get an adaption. The success of those titles compared to the other kind speaks volumes. And yuri isn't that different tbh. The shows you mentioned aren't really yuri, none of them even have as much as a shoujo-ai tag which speaks to how strong (or not) the presence of those aspects is in the show. They aren't 'yuri' anime, they are from other genres and just happen to include some amount of homosexual themes for various reasons, from complex thematic ones (utena) to light fanservice ones (kobayashi). I wouldn't really praise either of those FOR their shoujo-ai elements. They're just good shows who happen to have them as one of many things. That's pretty different from BL or Yuri. It's a bit like naming Akame ga Kill as a good BL anime because it has a gay character and that character was - imo - one of the best characters of the show. Still doesn't make it a great example of LGBT representation since he was only a minor part of it and there was basically no focus on his homosexuality. If you want to talk about yuri shows that actually focus on the relationships, stuff like Citrus or Netsuzou Trap come to mind, both of which aren't much less cringey than the average yaoi adaption. Also it is a myth that most fans are guys. Just most people who are active on forums are guys. If you go to a rl event there's at least as many girls as guys, if not more. How many more shows must be carried to success on the shoulders of the female anime fandom before people stop believing it is a completely male-dominated hobby? Enough shows to the point that Shounen is not popular anymore? I dunno. And yh Popularity is pretty much the reason why Mangas get adapted (including many shitty stuff). And yh Now you are saying it. There isn't really a good full GL or BL show...... That only means that Anime is afraid of taking risks don't you think? |
Bourmegar said: Pullman said: I'm just not sure that the majority fujos even want what we'd call 'good' BL. That's the thing. Just like ecchi fans will usually not share the same concept of 'good ecchi series' that non-ecchi fans might wish for. There's a demand for smut and fetishization that's probably bigger than for sensibly-written same-sex romance. At least in Japan. Otherwise those types of manga wouldn't mostly be the only BL manga that get popular enough to get an adaption. The success of those titles compared to the other kind speaks volumes. And yuri isn't that different tbh. The shows you mentioned aren't really yuri, none of them even have as much as a shoujo-ai tag which speaks to how strong (or not) the presence of those aspects is in the show. They aren't 'yuri' anime, they are from other genres and just happen to include some amount of homosexual themes for various reasons, from complex thematic ones (utena) to light fanservice ones (kobayashi). I wouldn't really praise either of those FOR their shoujo-ai elements. They're just good shows who happen to have them as one of many things. That's pretty different from BL or Yuri. It's a bit like naming Akame ga Kill as a good BL anime because it has a gay character and that character was - imo - one of the best characters of the show. Still doesn't make it a great example of LGBT representation since he was only a minor part of it and there was basically no focus on his homosexuality. If you want to talk about yuri shows that actually focus on the relationships, stuff like Citrus or Netsuzou Trap come to mind, both of which aren't much less cringey than the average yaoi adaption. Also it is a myth that most fans are guys. Just most people who are active on forums are guys. If you go to a rl event there's at least as many girls as guys, if not more. How many more shows must be carried to success on the shoulders of the female anime fandom before people stop believing it is a completely male-dominated hobby? Enough shows to the point that Shounen is not popular anymore? I dunno. And yh Popularity is pretty much the reason why Mangas get adapted (including many shitty stuff). And yh Now you are saying it. There isn't really a good full GL or BL show...... That only means that Anime is afraid of taking risks don't you think? Idk enough about the rest of the japanese media landscape to say whether it's anime or Japan. But I think it's TV in particular that is very risk averse in Japan, which is why you'll find more risky, progressive or less safe stuff in manga, novels or movies. Stuff that isn't publicly available for everybody but that you have to buy first. As for actually good anime that focus on same-sex relationships, there is Doukyuusei (not great imo, but by far the best I know of) for BL and Asagao to Kase-san for GL. And, surprise, they are both Movies and not stuff that aired on TV. Both aren't amazing imo, but they're genuine romances without fetishization and they thematize the homosexuality rather than just mentioning it in passing. There is actually another, older BL OVA that I found to be pretty okay as well, which is Fuyu no Semi. Once again, an OVA tho, not a TV show. I sense a pattern :>. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| if your reasons to hate yaoi are because is purely made for the consumption of straight women TO fetishize relationships between men and because is a harmful genre for the gay male community, then it's completely valid to hate it. but if your reasons are because you consider relationships between men gross, weird, a sin, or dirty then you should understand why some people, lgbt people specifically, would get sensitive. |
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Bourmegar said: That only means that Anime is afraid of taking risks don't you think? No, not really? None of the points you've made in this thread have actually indicated that things are afraid of taking a risk, because taking a risk doesn't inherently mean changing the entire fundamental identity of the series to the point where it's no longer the smutty stuff the niche audience surrounding it clamors for and is instead something entirely different, which, yes, is what it sounds like you're calling for here. Your definition of "good" doesn't inherently mean it's going to suddenly appeal to the niche as well, the priorities behind niche products like this and non-niche audiences can differ more drastically than you seem to be willing to realize. Not even a major risk entails that. And, no, I don't have the impression what you've pushed for in your posts - largely seeming to be less fetishized takes on homosexual romances, and more ones you'd deem "good" by distancing themselves from that image - and what my understanding of the standard BL series to be of the same identity because you seem to just want less smut and more of that, frankly. I do not group those things together just because they're both homosexual, which seems like the only thread being shared in the portrayal, and it seems reductive to what both would be doing and the identity they'd be extending it from to do as much to me. And it's fine to want and call for certain depictions of homosexual romance, I should stress, that isn't my issue - but blaming the niches and the industry for the lack thereof and treating like a matter of stagnation and being afraid to take creative risks? This mindset feels omnipresent to me on AD and I'm just exhausted with it. I can only speak from my own perspective here so I'm going to talk about an ecchi series a bit, and frankly I know that this is a series I namedrop a fuckton, but look at To LOVE-Ru - or, more specifically, the To LOVE-Ru: Darkness manga. Original TLR was an episodic gag manga with a shitton of fanservice, driven to notiriety because of a WSJ pubication alongside having notably stronger than average characterization, and most notably, a dedicated artist who is basically treated as a benchmark of modern ecchi manga artists to the point where I know many people who pick up series his name is attached to just because his name is attached to it, despite having absolutely no interest in it based on the concept or premise or even the character designs. Yabuki is just fucking crazy good at drawing an ecchi panel, even if he comes off as an ADHD child about all of the non-ecchi art. TLR:D came around, it restructured the entire goddamn thing to feature a concrete overarching narrative that essentially put one of the females from the harem as the protagonist (closer to an anti-hero imo but w/e) by centered the whole overarching narrative around her plan for achieving her end goals and focusing more on her perspectives on things, but also included chapters involving things like former comic relief characters basically revealing that they're aware of their role in relation to the male they seek and that the fact their interest is largely relegated to being a joke that would never happen, and that as much is legitimately hurtful to them as individuals and treating them as actually dramatic character development. On top of doing stuff like a fundamental restructuring, it pushed and sexualized all sorts of things so explicitly, even in comparison to its predecessor, that the Tokyo Government wanted to fucking ban it from being sold in Tokyo just because of the sheer amount of obscenity within it, at which point Yabuki and Hasemi doubled down as opposed to easing up and caving in and making it tamer by tossing in a ton of stuff that are frankly unheard of being displayed in ecchi at this point still, like subliminally including the vaginas of characters in their ecchi scenes in ways that wasn't just some sort of camel-toe type panty shot. It basically took everything the previous series was and did it with a totally different type of tone, narrative structure, and pushed all kinds of lewdness with being an ecchi. Yet, it still reveled in those tropes and constructs, ramping that aspect up as well if anything. It was a harem/ecchi series. It had the demographic that loved these things primarily consuming it and talking about it. It did not really do anything to pull in or attract other demographics, and in fact it pretty much solely ran the risk of alienating its primary audience in how it handled itself with the total restructuring of itself for its continuation. Yet, it was successful still. And even after an ending that got a negative reception by and large, people in the club I help administrate have made jokes about renaming the Discord Server to the fucking TLR server because of how often it's a series that's brought up and spoken of by our members, even though it's not a currently running or airing series in any way, shape, or form. What is that if not a major dice roll? There isn't really a lot of notable room of gaining a new audience through its new direction in terms of being harem/ecchi, and if you don't like these things then, well, the TLR:D continuation might even be more offputting than the original to some, but there's such a fundamental difference in the direction that it goes that it does risk majorly alienating the audience that actually fucking supported it previously. I guess it's worth noting that the write-up on TLR:D is coming from someone who prefers the original series format and structure over the risks they took in Darkness, for whatever that's worth to you. I'm not about to act like I'm not the minority within the niche I'm a part of in holding that opinion, though. I very much am on the unpopular stance with that xP ----------------------------------------- The same sort of situations could very easily happen to BL stuff, given that it'd be under similar circumstances - strongly dedicated niche audience for a type of content, yet not much room for outward growth because of the content lying therein. Something is drastically different than what surrounds it, yet it's still so closely attached to that fundamental base that it doesn't exactly gain the benefit of a potential replacement audience in case they alienate the first. Niche stuff like this, like BL, like harem/ecchi, can really run parallel in this sense. Those who aren't part of the niche and didn't seek out getting into it prior will still likely treat it like a series with copious amounts of fanservice and harem constructs and -dere types, or yaoi fingers and noncon creepy rape things or whatever - or whatever the hell the stereotypes that surround BL is because I'm honestly not entirely sure of what those are - and I'm not convinced that chances are in favor of said peripherals suddenly recognizing these mechanisms whenever the stuff you'll see at the top didn't change a whole lot and won't really bring up more than that. Then the people within the niche will recognize how drastically it's changed from what they loved that it no longer seems like it's even the same type of thing they were wanting and hoping for from it. All losing, the winning being, well, you did things fucking differently with minimal to no payoff in terms of finances or audience growth. So congrats. Being in the position of taking a dice roll without branching off from a niche audience means you're literally just taking a dice roll on the series that you actually got out there and are creating that has the payoff of creative liberty without much financial gain or audience growth coming alongside that. That is a scary ass risk to take, I'd imagine, considering the potential for backlash and the lack of an ability to properly pull in a cohesive enough replacement audience. But hey, there are actually people who want to make these things and want to extend them that way and will take that risk to attempt to do so. ----- You seem treating it as if not doing these things you want to see and portraying it in the way you wish it to do, as someone who seems to be a non-member of the niche audience surrounding BL, combined with it being what it is and having the audience that it does, that it's symptomatic of the industries involved indulging in stagnation, i.e. not taking risks. You even first tried to make an economical argument of it that there's a pot of gold by appealing to the audience who wants the things you want, as opposed to the elements and content that have developed a lasting and enduring niche audience, kind of implying the main concern is always, 100% exploiting the dedicated audience for these things. Which is also kind of silly imo. The way I perceive this doubly made assertion is that you've got a very narrow definition of what taking a creative risk actually is, and that taking a risk is something that largely will still operate largely independent of the audience(s) it attempts to appeal to, regardless of what you're trying to prescribe it here. Staying within a niche and having the fundamental identity that appeals to said niche and maintaining that doesn't suddenly exclude it from taking a risk with said niche that surrounds it. Say what you will about BL or whatever, I don't really care all that much whether you like it or dislike it, I don't like it, but to say that these things are signs of a fear of anime/manga with a niche audience being its primary consumer just seems outright silly to me. And, again, no, I don't really see how the types of things you're asking for here and what BL usually seems to be sound like they're coming from the same identity. It sounds to me like when people want ecchi to start being psychological explorations of sexual attraction or just a different type of series all together like when people praise Shokugeki or KLK as the way to do these things, laden with all sorts of this, subtle fanservice that is rarely present due to being put in the backseat in favor of a more traditional set of priorities when it comes to fiction and media that audiences outside of the niche can get behind. And given how much I already don't like that when people try to gear criticisms with ecchi this way, well, I guess I can see why I don't like it when people basically seem to be doing the equivalent of that elsewhere. |
ManabanNov 25, 2018 8:09 PM
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Lunilah said: HeroicIdealism said: It's a strawman because you intentionally twisted my point about what you said, not me. But if you conceded i'm not sure why you bring the former up with "then you said" as if it negates anything, when it's talking about you.Yes, you said that, then you said: As if singling out aka drawing a line in front of anal play as being animalistic is "pretty funny", laughable, ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, and I conceded: yes, many things about humans are animalistic, I shouldn't have drawn that line or make it seem like I only targeted anal stimulation. But many of these animalistic qualities are necessary. Anal play is not. Why is this a strawman? And why is it laughable to point out anal play as animalistic? Because it is "mundane", as you stated? So, on average, anal is not submissive? My description of anal is incorrect? Anal being a man/woman thrusting in your ass while you submit. Correct? Yes or no? Unless the one taking it in the ass is doing the riding, is that what you are referring to? Whether it's the average or not, being a pet can't be anything but submissive, that's immutable, anal isn't it's dynamic. I don't know how I made a strawman, I don't know what I twisted. I am sorry. Bernrika said: RealmOMFG said: Here's what I'm struggling with. I'll admit, I mostly just skimmed this entire debacle. But why does sexual pleasure have to be such a taboo? Who fucking cares if a guy likes his prostate tickled? It doesn't necessarily have to be another man, it could be his wife, pegging exists and some women absolutely enjoy being in charge in the bedroom. And so what if it is submissive? You can't have a dom without a sub, and just cause it isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean it can't be anyone else's. A lot of this seems to hinge on the assumption that mankind isn't allowed or able to embrace sexuality without devolving into a hoard of rapey, lust driven spawns of Satan (if that image is any indication.) And I mean... I think throwing "the devil" into any argument is pointless because religious belief is different from law or objective truth, and it's a CHOICE. Just like objective truth is different from personal truth. You may think it's weird or unacceptable for someone to indulge in prostate stimulation, but what they do with their ass doesn't and shouldn't concern you in the slightest. And if prostate stimulation is the only thing making homosexuality unacceptable, then what of lesbians? Are they fine because they don't tend to take it up the butt? That seems unfair, doesn't it? Unless to problem isn't actually how "animalistic" butt sex is (which in it of itself is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. Straight people sometimes like anal too, y'know,) but rather, that same-sex relationships are just generally not okay, then for what reason? Because they can't reproduce? So? There's too many people on the planet anyways, we need some population control. Because god said so? Again, we can't make religion what governs us, there's a separation of church and state for a reason. Because you personally think it's icky or wrong? Well that's fine I guess, but there's no reason that others can't disagree. But no, your main issue seems to be that you have this weird stigma in people indulging their sexual desires. No matter how consensual or how much it doesn't affect anyone else. But I have never understood why sexual pleasure and indulgence is so frowned upon by society. There are gays who don't even enjoy anal for what matter lol. It is disingenuous of you to espouse that gays who have sex with the same sex (who are men) do not perform anal intercourse. Keep deluding yourself. RealmOMFG said: HeroicIdealism said: Prostate stimulation as masturbation = animalistic Prostate stimulation with a partner = submissive That's what I meant. To have your partner insert something into your ass, unless you are forcing them to do it, is submissive. So, out of all the things that humans do that are animalistic, you draw the line at prostate stimulation? I don't draw the line. I admit, for example, that eating is "animalistic". But it is required to survive. Prostate stimulation is just revolting and can have all sorts of consequences. It is such a dumb thing to do. I imagine apes doing that. Not humans. But then again, my hope for humanity is continuously crushed. And people like you are perfectly fine with society metaphorically becoming like this: Here's what I'm struggling with. I'll admit, I mostly just skimmed this entire debacle. But why does sexual pleasure have to be such a taboo? Who fucking cares if a guy likes his prostate tickled? I care when it is publicly discussed as something that is not to be ashamed of. If I were to stick pipe cleaners inside my urethra (which, unfortunately, people do), and I found that to be pleasurable, I would not want that to be publicly discussed and if it is to be discussed, it should not be seen as healthy. At this point, I honestly don't have any "intellectual" reason other than, it is dangerous, it is practically mutilating your body, and in the case of anal, if you are a man, it is emaculating and dirty to play with the hole of which excrement is discharged from the body. Same goes for the urethra, where urine and semen is discharged. If I were to enjoy gagging myself — it is within my right to do so, but it is a perversion. Is this feelings-based? Perhaps. So is not wanting my wife to get fucked by other men. There's no "logical" reason behind it. She's just having fun exploring her sexuality! But deep within a lot of men, this is absolutely unforgivable. I would argue that to stick things in your ass, to stick things in your urethra, to stick things in your nose (aside from cleaning), to stick things in your ears (aside from cleaning), to stick things down your throat, to stick things in an open wound, all for pleasure, is disgusting. It gives man a disgraceful image. It is defiling his body, all the while he derives pleasure, his mouth agape in orgasmic ecstacy. It is a vile scene to even imagine. You want to stick sharpies, soap, or big black dildos in your ass? Be my guest. But do not associate with me, or at the very least, keep your mouth shut and never say a word about it. It doesn't necessarily have to be another man, it could be his wife, pegging exists and some women absolutely enjoy being in charge in the bedroom. And so what if it is submissive? You can't have a dom without a sub, and just cause it isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean it can't be anyone else's. You are breeding feminine, submissive men who act like dirty animals, submitting to women with fake strap-on cocks. Go ahead. A lot of this seems to hinge on the assumption that mankind isn't allowed or able to embrace sexuality without devolving into a hoard of rapey, lust driven spawns of Satan (if that image is any indication.) And I mean... I think throwing "the devil" into any argument is pointless because religious belief is different from law or objective truth, and it's a CHOICE. I never brought up the devil. Not once. Just like objective truth is different from personal truth. You may think it's weird or unacceptable for someone to indulge in prostate stimulation, but what they do with their ass doesn't and shouldn't concern you in the slightest. Agreed. Until they bring it into the public sphere and make it my business. Then I can say that it is disgusting. And if prostate stimulation is the only thing making homosexuality unacceptable, then what of lesbians? Are they fine because they don't tend to take it up the butt? That seems unfair, doesn't it? I would say that most things that aren't vanilla intercourse (and I suppose foreplay, depending on what it is) between a man and a woman are a perversion. But that's not the real issue. The real issue is that lesbians are not beneficial to society in the long run. Sure, they can have a sperm donor — but it's not even all about continuing the species. Even in the present, they are a detriment. Because a lesbian couple is two less women available to men. (Gay men are two less men available to women. No double standard here). Men/women are 50/50 in this population. And we already have unattractive, undesirable men (men have a much harder time in the sexual market than women) who won't get women easily. Then we have promiscuous men who horde a bunch of women. Then we have women who don't want to marry or have children who focus on career. Then we have gay men and lesbians. We are severely limiting the gene pool here, while more conservative cultures are flooding into the west who hate LGBT and are breeding like rabbits. Gays/lesbians aren't even the biggest issue, but they don't help; they rarely have children, rarely have successful monogamous relationships, are overwhelmingly promiscuous (in the case of men; not sure how many lesbians are) and the entire premise of "you do you" LGBT sexuality is based on hedonism — pleasure being one of if not the most desirable attribute of life. And that is not meaningful. It's no wonder we are all depressed — and it's not just the LGBT community. But anyhow, gays see sexuality as one of the most important aspects of life, and they will continue to buttfuck and do drugs and not have children and likely not even get married in the first place, all the while complaining about how oppressed they are and getting unlimited social privilege. And many people who find their lifestyle and the sex acts they commit to be revolting have to keep their mouths shut, or else they are to be labeled a bigot. Enough is enough. I will speak out every chance I see LGBT being promoted in the public space. You want to do it in private? Fine. Then keep it in private. Unless to problem isn't actually how "animalistic" butt sex is (which in it of itself is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. Straight people sometimes like anal too, y'know,) Sometimes. I wouldn't promote it. but rather, that same-sex relationships are just generally not okay, then for what reason? Because they can't reproduce? So? There's too many people on the planet anyways, we need some population control. I loathe this asinine argument. Overpopulation is a myth. You can fit the entire world population in Texas. We have plenty of room and plenty of resources. Because god said so? Again, we can't make religion what governs us, there's a separation of church and state for a reason. Because you personally think it's icky or wrong? Well that's fine I guess, but there's no reason that others can't disagree. But no, your main issue seems to be that you have this weird stigma in people indulging their sexual desires. No matter how consensual or how much it doesn't affect anyone else. But I have never understood why sexual pleasure and indulgence is so frowned upon by society. When society is an orgy fuck fest, then loving, loyal monogamous relationships fail. LGBT culture and all its perversions continue the trend of love losing and bitterness increasing. If you are a monogamous gay person who values love, more power to you. Gay culture is generally not about that. And there are many societal implications for celebrating and encouraging people to be gay. I do not believe that one of us will convince the other, and I do not wish to waste any more of my time arguing about buttsex and gays on an anime forum. So, I wish you all the best, and you can destroy my arguments as much as you wish. I will probably read most replies and may give short replies myself if I feel it is necessary, but I am done with writing 'essays'. I hope this is understandable. Good day. |
removed-userNov 26, 2018 5:41 AM
HeroicIdealism said: No worries. I don't detest your posts as they aren't bait and are civil.Lunilah said: It's a strawman because you intentionally twisted my point about what you said, not me. But if you conceded i'm not sure why you bring the former up with "then you said" as if it negates anything, when it's talking about you. Whether it's the average or not, being a pet can't be anything but submissive, that's immutable, anal isn't it's dynamic. I don't know how I made a strawman, I don't know what I twisted. I am sorry. |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| I really don't understand it myself. I personally don't have any preferences when it comes to the genders of the people in a relationship, as long as it's well written and the characters are sympathetic. |
HeroicIdealism said: It is disingenuous of you to espouse that gays who have sex with the same sex (who are men) do not perform anal intercourse. Keep deluding yourself. No? Unlike you I get out of the house and know homosexuals people. You seem to have a weird fixation with the anus, which is pretty common with homophobes for some reason. I don't in general you understand what being gay means, or sexuality at all. loathe this asinine argument. Overpopulation is a myth. You can fit the entire world population in Texas. We have plenty of room and plenty of resources. Please be underage.One cannot be so clueless. |
BernrikaNov 26, 2018 6:39 AM
HeroicIdealism said: Bernrika said: No? Unlike you I get out of the house and know homosexuals people. You seem to have a weird fixation with the anus, which is pretty common with homophobes for some reason. I don't in general you understand what being gay means, or sexuality at all. Please be underage.One cannot be so clueless. How do gays have sex? I am not underage and "clueless" isn't an argument. I mean..... a lot of people would consider going down on each other to be sex.... I know I do myself. I start thinking what is being had is sex in what I am reading from about handjobs onward. Anything involving a partner sexual activity. Obviously sex by yourself is kinda sex too, but I think when people say sex, they mean partner sex and probably penetrative sex? But I don't always think of sex that way.... Especially when it comes to homosexual sex. |
Energetic-NovaNov 26, 2018 7:29 AM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
HeroicIdealism said: Energetic-Nova said: I mean..... a lot of people would consider going down on each other to be sex.... I know I do myself. I start thinking what is being had is sex in what I am reading from about handjobs onward. Anything involving a partner sexual activity. Obviously sex by yourself is kinda sex too, but I think when people say sex, they mean partner sex and probably penetrative sex? But I don't always think of sex that way.... Especially when it comes to homosexual sex. So gays really only blow each other? That's news to me. I honestly don't care too much anymore, I'm tired from arguing about this lol. But fine, not all gays do anal. I thought it was pretty damn common among gay men, though. It is common but not the only thing people like to do. And some gay and bisexual men don't like anal. |
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
HeroicIdealism said: Bernrika said: No? Unlike you I get out of the house and know homosexuals people. You seem to have a weird fixation with the anus, which is pretty common with homophobes for some reason. I don't in general you understand what being gay means, or sexuality at all. Please be underage.One cannot be so clueless. How do gays have sex? They hold hands and make a rainbow. You dont seem to understand homosexuality is simply attraction to the same sex, anything else (Kinks, fetishes, preferences in bed) is up to the person. I am not underage and "clueless" isn't an argument. You don't need an argument to think you cant fit 8 billions of people in Texas or that our resources aren't infinite. You just need common sense. |
HeroicIdealism said: You say metaphorically, but then say you don't want to view every person as a potential fuckmeat. Implying if "society" changed to whatever it is you imagine that it would be out of your control.RealmOMFG said: I understand you said you weren't gonna give lengthy replies anymore less you see fit, so I'm not expecting much here. But you did say you'd likely read replies and there are a few specific things you said that just... Okay so like Fuckin and?? Who cares if a guy likes subbing? Fuck dude why do women always have to bottom? Why can't guys indulge themselves in some hot dom women? This seems asinine. This is a fundamental belief that men always have to be the ones in charge and I can't see myself saying anything that might even begin to sway you here so I'll just say I will never understand this way of thinking. If some men like bottoming, or some women like topping, I see absolutely no issue whatsoever. But is that bad though? Vanilla can get boring my guy, sometimes people wanna spice up their sex life a bit. And that whole speech about how lesbians aren't beneficial to society and how we're limiting the gene pool was BS. Not every single person on the planet needs to be having kids dude. We have plenty of people. And just... Gay people like sex just as much as straight people. Why? Cause it's fun, like damn. I don't know why sex is held up as this special thing that must only be done to further the population. It feels nice and people like doing it. Sex is just a fact of life and there's no reason to treat it as this hush hush sacred thing used exclusively for good, holy, vanilla baby making. Okay fine, I won't say we "can't" fit more people onto the planet. But do we really need to? I mean one could argue that if everyone was gay, we wouldn't get anywhere. But not everyone is gay so it isn't an issue. That's like saying "well if everyone was infertile.." or "well if nobody wanted kids someday.." but here's the thing... those are hypotheticals. Gay people are a minority so there's no reason to use their inability to naturally reproduce as a legit reason to belittle their existence. Some people like sex cause it feels nice, not just for kids. I for one don't ever plan on having kids, but I sure as hell don't plan to live a life of celibacy. That is such utter bullshit. While it's true lgbt people tend to embrace sexual desire, I won't deny that, to suggest that they're somehow less capable of stable relationships is just ridiculous. Literally, romantically speaking, a gay relationship is exactly like a straight one just with two men or two women. Sexually, sure, there are some logistical differences. But romantically they're just about parallel. My motto: People should be able to do whatever makes them happy so long as nobody is being hurt. (Unless it's consensual sadomasochism because kinky sex is okay too despite obvious disagreement on that front.) Rape, pedophilia, or other sexual acts of the such do in fact hurt people. Which is what makes it not okay imo. A dude falling in love with another guy doesn't hurt anyone. Say non sexual crimes make you happy. Arson? Theft? Those obviously hurt people too. Be it physical, mental, emotional, financial, etc, if it hurts someone else then it isn't okay. Anything else is fair game. Obviously there's a limit to that sort of conventional wisdom, and there are surely exceptions because life is more nuanced than "live and let live." But as a general rule, as long as nobody is negatively impacted people should be free to do whatever. That's just my take on it. I'm not expecting a reply, but since you said you'd be reading comments I figured I'd just get that all out there. I'm speaking statistics, not "gays can have romantic, loyal relationships". Statistically, they are promiscuous. People like you will turn society into a total orgy, metaphorically speaking. I don't want to view every person as potential fuckmeat. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: You just throw words around like society and everyone as if people are that simple, not everyone is a sex addict or can just turn into one. You don't have to view people as potential fuckmeat if you don't want to that's the entire point, literally nobody has to or will ever be obligated to except in that imaginary world you envision. You know why it's so hard to argue for or against? Because everyone already has the freedom to do whatever they want and your horrible world of sex being the dominating force of society doesn't exist. It's literally arguing thin air, there is no argument it hasn't happened.Lunilah said: You say metaphorically, but then say you don't want to view every person as a potential fuckmeat. Implying if "society" changed to whatever it is you imagine that it would be out of your control. Sorry dude, I really don't understand what are you trying to say? I say metaphorically, because society obviously wouldn't be having a giant orgy everyday. But everyone would be game to have sex with in the eyes of the promiscuous, which a lot of people in this thread advocate to be: "It's just sex, it's fun to let loose" and I apparently don't understand sexuality because I advocate self restraint and monogamy. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: Alright, you completely ignored what i said and started talking about something else.Lunilah said: You just throw words around like society and everyone as if people are that simple, not everyone is a sex addict or can just turn into one. You don't have to view people as potential fuckmeat if you don't want to that's the entire point, literally nobody has to or will ever be obligated to except in that imaginary world you envision. You know why it's so hard to argue for or against? Because everyone already has the freedom to do whatever they want and your horrible world of sex being the dominating force of society doesn't exist. It's literally arguing thin air, there is no argument it hasn't happened. So you believe that sex is not a huge force in the way people act? This is a very naive view. I will give a quick example. A male pick up artist or a "player" will make it a goal to have sex with many women and pick up many women to fuck. Do you not think that this will change the way he thinks about women? |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: Instead of addressing what i said, which the content of what i said renders the reply you gave moot because a sexually free society already exists, you labelled me with believing sex isn't an impactful thing for people and instead talked about that. Which if you actually understood more about, humans get numb to mindless sex.Lunilah said: Alright, you completely ignored what i said and started talking about something else. You are strawmanning me by claiming that I am strawmanning you. You say that it is my will to not view others as fuckmeat. I am saying that to have a lot of sex with people, changes how you view people. What point of yours am I ignoring? Not everyone is a sex addict? You think if people are promiscuous, that is not a sex addict? What do you specifically want me to address? I am saying LGBT culture promotes promiscuity. Promiscuity makes people have sex with many people. This in turn changes the way people will view others. Am I wrong? Yes or no? And I am not ignoring a damn thing you are saying. The world you fear already exists, and there is nothing wrong with it. Society isn't fiending for sex. Even if you look at countries where brothels are legal, nothing is different that is derived from it. Sex and love are very different things, that pickup artist example you gave means absolutely nothing. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Manaban said: Bourmegar said: That only means that Anime is afraid of taking risks don't you think? No, not really? None of the points you've made in this thread have actually indicated that things are afraid of taking a risk, because taking a risk doesn't inherently mean changing the entire fundamental identity of the series to the point where it's no longer the smutty stuff the niche audience surrounding it clamors for and is instead something entirely different, which, yes, is what it sounds like you're calling for here. Your definition of "good" doesn't inherently mean it's going to suddenly appeal to the niche as well, the priorities behind niche products like this and non-niche audiences can differ more drastically than you seem to be willing to realize. Not even a major risk entails that. And, no, I don't have the impression what you've pushed for in your posts - largely seeming to be less fetishized takes on homosexual romances, and more ones you'd deem "good" by distancing themselves from that image - and what my understanding of the standard BL series to be of the same identity because you seem to just want less smut and more of that, frankly. I do not group those things together just because they're both homosexual, which seems like the only thread being shared in the portrayal, and it seems reductive to what both would be doing and the identity they'd be extending it from to do as much to me. And it's fine to want and call for certain depictions of homosexual romance, I should stress, that isn't my issue - but blaming the niches and the industry for the lack thereof and treating like a matter of stagnation and being afraid to take creative risks? This mindset feels omnipresent to me on AD and I'm just exhausted with it. I can only speak from my own perspective here so I'm going to talk about an ecchi series a bit, and frankly I know that this is a series I namedrop a fuckton, but look at To LOVE-Ru - or, more specifically, the To LOVE-Ru: Darkness manga. Original TLR was an episodic gag manga with a shitton of fanservice, driven to notiriety because of a WSJ pubication alongside having notably stronger than average characterization, and most notably, a dedicated artist who is basically treated as a benchmark of modern ecchi manga artists to the point where I know many people who pick up series his name is attached to just because his name is attached to it, despite having absolutely no interest in it based on the concept or premise or even the character designs. Yabuki is just fucking crazy good at drawing an ecchi panel, even if he comes off as an ADHD child about all of the non-ecchi art. TLR:D came around, it restructured the entire goddamn thing to feature a concrete overarching narrative that essentially put one of the females from the harem as the protagonist (closer to an anti-hero imo but w/e) by centered the whole overarching narrative around her plan for achieving her end goals and focusing more on her perspectives on things, but also included chapters involving things like former comic relief characters basically revealing that they're aware of their role in relation to the male they seek and that the fact their interest is largely relegated to being a joke that would never happen, and that as much is legitimately hurtful to them as individuals and treating them as actually dramatic character development. On top of doing stuff like a fundamental restructuring, it pushed and sexualized all sorts of things so explicitly, even in comparison to its predecessor, that the Tokyo Government wanted to fucking ban it from being sold in Tokyo just because of the sheer amount of obscenity within it, at which point Yabuki and Hasemi doubled down as opposed to easing up and caving in and making it tamer by tossing in a ton of stuff that are frankly unheard of being displayed in ecchi at this point still, like subliminally including the vaginas of characters in their ecchi scenes in ways that wasn't just some sort of camel-toe type panty shot. It basically took everything the previous series was and did it with a totally different type of tone, narrative structure, and pushed all kinds of lewdness with being an ecchi. Yet, it still reveled in those tropes and constructs, ramping that aspect up as well if anything. It was a harem/ecchi series. It had the demographic that loved these things primarily consuming it and talking about it. It did not really do anything to pull in or attract other demographics, and in fact it pretty much solely ran the risk of alienating its primary audience in how it handled itself with the total restructuring of itself for its continuation. Yet, it was successful still. And even after an ending that got a negative reception by and large, people in the club I help administrate have made jokes about renaming the Discord Server to the fucking TLR server because of how often it's a series that's brought up and spoken of by our members, even though it's not a currently running or airing series in any way, shape, or form. What is that if not a major dice roll? There isn't really a lot of notable room of gaining a new audience through its new direction in terms of being harem/ecchi, and if you don't like these things then, well, the TLR:D continuation might even be more offputting than the original to some, but there's such a fundamental difference in the direction that it goes that it does risk majorly alienating the audience that actually fucking supported it previously. I guess it's worth noting that the write-up on TLR:D is coming from someone who prefers the original series format and structure over the risks they took in Darkness, for whatever that's worth to you. I'm not about to act like I'm not the minority within the niche I'm a part of in holding that opinion, though. I very much am on the unpopular stance with that xP ----------------------------------------- The same sort of situations could very easily happen to BL stuff, given that it'd be under similar circumstances - strongly dedicated niche audience for a type of content, yet not much room for outward growth because of the content lying therein. Something is drastically different than what surrounds it, yet it's still so closely attached to that fundamental base that it doesn't exactly gain the benefit of a potential replacement audience in case they alienate the first. Niche stuff like this, like BL, like harem/ecchi, can really run parallel in this sense. Those who aren't part of the niche and didn't seek out getting into it prior will still likely treat it like a series with copious amounts of fanservice and harem constructs and -dere types, or yaoi fingers and noncon creepy rape things or whatever - or whatever the hell the stereotypes that surround BL is because I'm honestly not entirely sure of what those are - and I'm not convinced that chances are in favor of said peripherals suddenly recognizing these mechanisms whenever the stuff you'll see at the top didn't change a whole lot and won't really bring up more than that. Then the people within the niche will recognize how drastically it's changed from what they loved that it no longer seems like it's even the same type of thing they were wanting and hoping for from it. All losing, the winning being, well, you did things fucking differently with minimal to no payoff in terms of finances or audience growth. So congrats. Being in the position of taking a dice roll without branching off from a niche audience means you're literally just taking a dice roll on the series that you actually got out there and are creating that has the payoff of creative liberty without much financial gain or audience growth coming alongside that. That is a scary ass risk to take, I'd imagine, considering the potential for backlash and the lack of an ability to properly pull in a cohesive enough replacement audience. But hey, there are actually people who want to make these things and want to extend them that way and will take that risk to attempt to do so. ----- You seem treating it as if not doing these things you want to see and portraying it in the way you wish it to do, as someone who seems to be a non-member of the niche audience surrounding BL, combined with it being what it is and having the audience that it does, that it's symptomatic of the industries involved indulging in stagnation, i.e. not taking risks. You even first tried to make an economical argument of it that there's a pot of gold by appealing to the audience who wants the things you want, as opposed to the elements and content that have developed a lasting and enduring niche audience, kind of implying the main concern is always, 100% exploiting the dedicated audience for these things. Which is also kind of silly imo. The way I perceive this doubly made assertion is that you've got a very narrow definition of what taking a creative risk actually is, and that taking a risk is something that largely will still operate largely independent of the audience(s) it attempts to appeal to, regardless of what you're trying to prescribe it here. Staying within a niche and having the fundamental identity that appeals to said niche and maintaining that doesn't suddenly exclude it from taking a risk with said niche that surrounds it. Say what you will about BL or whatever, I don't really care all that much whether you like it or dislike it, I don't like it, but to say that these things are signs of a fear of anime/manga with a niche audience being its primary consumer just seems outright silly to me. And, again, no, I don't really see how the types of things you're asking for here and what BL usually seems to be sound like they're coming from the same identity. It sounds to me like when people want ecchi to start being psychological explorations of sexual attraction or just a different type of series all together like when people praise Shokugeki or KLK as the way to do these things, laden with all sorts of this, subtle fanservice that is rarely present due to being put in the backseat in favor of a more traditional set of priorities when it comes to fiction and media that audiences outside of the niche can get behind. And given how much I already don't like that when people try to gear criticisms with ecchi this way, well, I guess I can see why I don't like it when people basically seem to be doing the equivalent of that elsewhere. Those are skme good points you have. I've heard that Japanese Youth seems to be more ok with same sex Marriages in recent time. But that will probably change not much when it comes to niche products like Anime (Only time will tell). I was just wondering why The not so Smutty Yaoi weren't getting adapted, and yh I might have come over as one who wants to eradicate Other things so sorry about that, I don't want Smut to Disappear. Oh and to be honest, KlK and Shokugeki aren't exactly subtle in my eyes. |
| I wouldn't say that I'm triggered by the people that are triggered by homosexuality in anime, the phrase/meme "Eat the poo poo" comes to mind. |
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HeroicIdealism said: Sex is just sex, love is just love, you can't just love anybody, you can just have sex with anybody. Sex as a concept isn't black and white and shouldn't be treated as such. Some people only want sex with those they love, and others don't and there is nothing wrong with that, that's the whole point of sexual freedom. One isn't going to disappear with the growth of another, as is demonstrated throughout the world.Lunilah said: Instead of addressing what i said, which the content of what i said renders the reply you gave moot because a sexually free society already exists, you labelled me with believing sex isn't an impactful thing for people and instead talked about that. Which if you actually understood more about, humans get numb to mindless sex. The world you fear already exists, and there is nothing wrong with it. Society isn't fiending for sex. Even if you look at countries where brothels are legal, nothing is different that is derived from it. Sex and love are very different things, that pickup artist example you gave means absolutely nothing. Alright then, if sex is impactful, then why would you treat it as if it is something you can share with many people? That doesn't seem impactful to me. Do you yourself view it as impactful, but are libertarian in that you are okay with those who don't? I'm not trying to mischaracterize you. I want to understand. I thought I've been understanding, but whenever I give an argument from my perspective, you say I am totally off topic. I am genuinely baffled as to how to respond. It doesn't help that I've been trying to keep my arguments short, but I guess I cannot do that. I know that the world of which I do not want already exists. That is why I am being heavily opposed for my beliefs on this sort of issue. Sex and love shouldn't be different things, but that is a whole 'nother argument that I do not want to have. The countries where brothels are legal also happen to have low birthrates, generally. At least in Europe. But apparently that isn't a problem. It's not like being alone on your deathbed without any children isn't an awful thing, for starters. Yes, I brought something else up, but it lends to my argument, that sex-positive societies find meaning in pleasure rather than raising a family, which correlates with love. You can oppose it for yourself personally, and find other people who also agree, you probably won't find many people who live opposite sexual lives that won't disagree with your lifestyle and actually find values in it that they don't have, and probably will experience because if you do too much of anything you'll get numb too it. The world could use less birthrates honestly, too many people having kids who aren't able to support them. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: Yeah, people who have been promiscuous can also have committed relationships and feel the same way about having a family (AS IS DEMONSTRATED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD). Rape isn't heinous because it involves sex, it's because it's without consent and is a form of violence and torture. Infidelity is heartbreaking to people who view sex as just sex if they're in a relationship too, your feelings don't trump theirs and vice versa. Marriage vows statistically mean nothing if you look at divorce rates.Lunilah said: Sex is just sex, love is just love, you can't just love anybody, you can just have sex with anybody. Sex as a concept isn't black and white and shouldn't be treated as such. Some people only want sex with those they love, and others don't and there is nothing wrong with that, that's the whole point of sexual freedom. One isn't going to disappear with the growth of another, as is demonstrated throughout the world. You can oppose it for yourself personally, and find other people who also agree, you probably won't find many people who live opposite sexual lives that won't disagree with your lifestyle and actually find values in it that they don't have, and probably will experience because if you do too much of anything you'll get numb too it. The world could use less birthrates honestly, too many people having kids who aren't able to support them. There's nothing more I can say to convince you. I dream to raise children together with the woman I love, and to have a loyal, loving relationship. Fuck this "sex is just sex" culture. If sex wasn't special, rape wouldn't be so heinous, infidelity wouldn't be so heartbreaking, and marriage vows wouldn't mean anything. The last one has already come to be. |
LunilahNov 26, 2018 9:26 AM
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| The obesssion with anal and prostate stimulation basically ruins anything this topic was trying to accomplish. I also don't "hate" people who hate me. |
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Bourmegar said: Oh and to be honest, KlK and Shokugeki aren't exactly subtle in my eyes. Just for clarification, I wouldn't say either was "subtle" when they do fanservice, I just don't think they feature it as a priority aspect or enough to warrant consideration :P KLK can be debated I guess, I used to be all in on it being one but now I kind of go back and forth on whether or not I'd consider it one, but I really don't think it's present enough in Shokugeki especially to warrant being tagged as such. I do kind of draw a line between an anime that has fanservice every once and a while and something that I'd actually call an ecchi. I was just bringing them up as examples that get a lot of praise from non-fans, because, well, they both prioritize elements that appeal to people outside of the niche more commonly and put those things wayyyy ahead of the ecchi. Which, no, I absolutely do not want that to be the case from an ecchi myself, that seems borderline blasphemous to me. The still present lack of quantity in both hurts their bid, and again, especially in Shokugeki's case there. I will not rest until the anime adaptation of Shokugeki has the ecchi tag taken off of it tbh :V I absolutely hate that, lol. |
ManabanNov 26, 2018 9:38 AM
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HeroicIdealism said: I think i forgot to put a "do" after marriage vows because i was meaning to agree with you.Lunilah said: Yeah, people who have been promiscuous can also have committed relationships and feel the same way about having a family. Rape isn't only heinous because it involves sex without consent, it's because it's a form of violence and torture. Infidelity is heartbreaking to people who view sex as just sex if they're in a relationship too, your feelings don't trump theirs and vice versa. Marriage vows statistically mean nothing if you look at divorce rates. "The last one has already come to be", I was referring to divorce rates. Marriage is a joke now. It's a damn shame. I doubt you'll agree. Rape can be torture, but not always. If a man pins a woman down and fucks her, I would struggle to call that torture. Psychological torture, though, sure - and it's because to not have control of your body and of your sexual intimacy, it is absolutely damaging. And this is because sex is a special thing that should not be perverted into violence. If sex is just sex, why is infidelity heartbreaking? A romantic infidelity has more at play than sex, sure - but once you find out sex is involved, that will typically be the final straw. And if it is just a sexual infidelity, that is still heartbreaking. I never said my feelings trumped anyone. In fact, this lends better to my argument: infidelity does hurt even the promiscuous. This is odd, though: sex is just sex. Why even be monogamous if you have this view? Infidelity of a sexual nature shouldn't hurt the promiscuous at all. Unless, they do feel possessive over their loved one? And only want them to fuck them? Gee, suddenly, my viewpoint makes more sense. I don't want my loved one to fuck other people. This is the point of monogamy and not being promiscuous. Psychological torture is still torture, yes, so we agree it is torture but not always violent. The fact it's without consent is the major thing, murder would be fine otherwise, if you consider doctor assisted suicide. As for this, i already answered it in a previous post: Lunilah said: Everything else is covered in the post you quoted about having sex vs being in a committed relationship.Sex is just sex, love is just love, you can't just love anybody, you can just have sex with anybody. Sex as a concept isn't black and white and shouldn't be treated as such. Some people only want sex with those they love, and others don't and there is nothing wrong with that, that's the whole point of sexual freedom. One isn't going to disappear with the growth of another, as is demonstrated throughout the world. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: If sex is just sex, why is infidelity heartbreaking? A romantic infidelity has more at play than sex, sure - but once you find out sex is involved, that will typically be the final straw. And if it is just a sexual infidelity, that is still heartbreaking. I never said my feelings trumped anyone. In fact, this lends better to my argument: infidelity does hurt even the promiscuous. This is odd, though: sex is just sex. Why even be monogamous if you have this view? Infidelity of a sexual nature shouldn't hurt the promiscuous at all. Unless, they do feel possessive over their loved one? And only want them to fuck them? Gee, suddenly, my viewpoint makes more sense. I don't want my loved one to fuck other people. This is the point of monogamy and not being promiscuous. I don't think people will really like what I have to say here, but yes - sex is just sex. It's generally going to amount to either something for procreation, or something for pleasure that is ultimately going to amount to the people participating reducing each other into masturbatory objects for each other's indulgence. I know there are people who try to build up sex as this really, really loving and trusting and intimate thing, but I really don't believe that to be the case myself and I do think it's two people indulging each other pretty heavily for each other's pleasure. It is not a beautiful, rose-petal covered ordeal - it's two bodies slamming against each other in awkward positions like animals for the sake of giving each other the good feels. But that doesn't mean that there's not a huge degree of intimacy involved in it that lends credit to the existence of this sort of narrative surrounding sexual activity within committed relationships at the same time, even if the primary intent usually tends to be pretty selfish and self-gratifying and using your partner(s) in such a way to achieve as much. But that's probably exactly why I see it being such a big deal in this case. Even if the intent is pretty much purely for pleasuring each other somehow, you still have to show yourself at your most vunerable in a lot of cases, and you still have to allow the other to basically to do to you what you want to do to them - use each other as masturbatory objects to fulfill each other's pleasures. There is still *that* level of intimacy from how it extends to achieve said bottom line, even if the baseline doesn't necessarily tend to have a huge amount of depth to it. You have to see the other side of someone, in ways that isn't the same as just being friends and talking with members of the opposite sex and the like. You have to expose yourself. You have to, quite literally, either put yourself inside of your partner or let them put themselves inside of you, depending on your position. The pleasure, the allotment of allowing each other to reveal themselves in such ways and indulge in each other's desires like that, what they're allowed to see and do with each other - it makes sense why exclusivity to that is a big deal. It isn't just conversation or friendship. It's fucking, and it's still got intimacy to it even at its most promiscuous. Just whether or not the intimacy to something much more exclusive would be equal in comparison is a different discussion, to which I'd probably say no, just not without denying that it is still a necessary pre-requisite. Also, it isn't a completely black and white spectrum, to where being sexually promiscuous makes you this sex crazed maniac who doesn't care about who you fuck so long as you're fucking someone, and I don't really see the reason for questioning as much. You're obviously not just either a perv who doesn't care about any of these things or somebody so pure that they can only feasibly operate in monogamy. I'm a pretty perverse person and I would absolutely not be able to deal with an open relationship, for instance, let alone adultery. It'd break my fucking heart and I can easily see it as enough for me to want end the relationship. But I still surround myself with sexuality and things of sexual nature in my freetime, much moreso than most I'd imagine, because I absolutely adore these indulgent aspects of it all the same. It isn't necessarily something grounded in morality or what's socially acceptable, as much as that more intimate and personal aspect of it specifically. Even if I went out to a brothel, intimacy would be a pre-requisite give what we have to allow ourselves to do to each other and how we'd need to build on it, in spite of it being a stranger who I'm paying for sex in this hypothetical. It's not a separable element from it, it just operates in degrees. The sex with a prostitute would very, very unlikely be as intimate as one with your partner in a relationship. But intimacy would still be present just because of how such a thing needs to be achieved alone. And when there's no prior consent for sexual relations outside of the relationship involved, going around and doing it with other people is just...kind of much more tearing at the fundamental values of what people are letting each other do and see with each other. It's taking the trust involved in the act and bringing other people into that realm that's more or less exclusive to the relationship, again, unless it's an open relationship type situation and they don't mind, and even then I'd argue against that being the case suddenly meaning that they love each other less for it. In monogamy, it's violating that space, in a sense. All of the things that do ultimately make sex an intimate deal in spite of it being used as an act of pleasure are thrown out the window. So I do get why it's a bigger deal here, even if at the end of the day "Sex is just sex" and it's being used in a way that's more gratifying, much-much-more-lewd-than-romantic, and indulgent than it is chaste and pure and sweet. |
ManabanNov 26, 2018 10:16 AM
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Manaban said: Even in committed relationships, after the honeymoon phase, making love just turns into basic sex most of the time. That also isn't unique to sex, after the honeymoon phase everything changes as we're already numb and comfortable for the most part, and it's what makes those moments of love and romance (not just making love) mean something again. Or in very rare cases you have super strict values and basically never have sex again after having kids.So I do get why it's a bigger deal here, even if at the end of the day "Sex is just sex" and it's being used in a way that's more gratifying and indulgent than it is chaste. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: RealmOMFG said: No I completely agree. While I do think the experience can be enhanced by doing it with someone you deeply love, it's not at all necessary to have a good time. I'm with you completely. Which is where a lot of this "gay sex isn't sacred" bs is falling short for me, cause I don't find goody-goody, pure, heterosexual baby making sex to be sacred either. Sure, having a kid is awesome and it's a big deal for a couple to conceive. But the act in it of itself is just sex minus birth control. I've always found that putting sex on a pedestal as this holy thing not to be spoken of and only to be done with your one true love is what's led society to be all awkward about sexual content. We can play a game or watch a movie in which countless people are slaughtered without mercy, but throw a boob on the screen and suddenly everyone gets uncomfortable. It's baffling to me how such a natural, mundane act of indulgence is so taboo to speak about or to portray in entertainment. And it's 100% cause people like this dude over here who sees sex as some sorta godly gift bestowed upon us for the sake of two people deeply and madly in love to combine their souls with. If sex was everywhere it'd make everyone horny all the time and that is not a good state. This is why we wear clothes, even when it is scorching hot outside. I quit watching porn because I don't want to feed my lust for random people. Sex is "sacred" in that way - it shouldn't be done with those you don't love. I wouldn't like it if my gf/wife had many sex partners, it'd show she wasn't able to be committed to one man, for example. I don't believe that I mentioned that babymaking sex is the only sex that should be acceptable. I don't know why sex in a loving relationship, "two souls as one flesh" is so horrible a concept to you. Remember yesterday when you singled me out and implied I was upset you thought gay sex was disgusting? Fuck you. |
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HeroicIdealism said: That is a completely baseless claim, lol.RealmOMFG said: No I completely agree. While I do think the experience can be enhanced by doing it with someone you deeply love, it's not at all necessary to have a good time. I'm with you completely. Which is where a lot of this "gay sex isn't sacred" bs is falling short for me, cause I don't find goody-goody, pure, heterosexual baby making sex to be sacred either. Sure, having a kid is awesome and it's a big deal for a couple to conceive. But the act in it of itself is just sex minus birth control. I've always found that putting sex on a pedestal as this holy thing not to be spoken of and only to be done with your one true love is what's led society to be all awkward about sexual content. We can play a game or watch a movie in which countless people are slaughtered without mercy, but throw a boob on the screen and suddenly everyone gets uncomfortable. It's baffling to me how such a natural, mundane act of indulgence is so taboo to speak about or to portray in entertainment. And it's 100% cause people like this dude over here who sees sex as some sorta godly gift bestowed upon us for the sake of two people deeply and madly in love to combine their souls with. If sex was everywhere it'd make everyone horny all the time and that is not a good state. This is why we wear clothes, even when it is scorching hot outside. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
HeroicIdealism said: Tsunshine-Chris said: Remember yesterday when you singled me out and implied I was upset you thought gay sex was disgusting? Fuck you. I don't remember you in particular, but I did say and will stand by that I think gay sex is disgusting. Yeah. I guess anal stimulation really is a productive anime topic. |
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| Most people don't report things, and i assume it's kind of on topic but it's been pretty civil in here. This still breaks rule 5* though. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
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