| Title explains the thread well enough I think. This has been a fairly hot topic, especially with some of the controversy surrounding Anita Sarkeesian. I'm seeing more and more professional gaming sites include mentions of sexism/misogyny in their reviews, in recent cases actually subtracting from certain games review scores for things like female characters having revealing clothing or being portrayed in a sexualized way. I tend to find that modern day feminist completely ignore the double standard of how men are portrayed, and also that not all women think their body and sexual appetite is something they should be ashamed of. What are some of your opinions on this? I know since this is an anime related site and a large amount of you watch ecchi anime that I will probably get fairly bias responses, but I think their is a fair variety of view points among the regulars in these forums. I think you can get an idea of where I stand on the subject from what I wrote above. |
| It's fine. Companies make games that sell and what people who play games want. They don't exist to make a statement. Feminists are free to make their own games. |
| I wouldn't say rampant but there is definitely some traces of sexism in video games |
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| Yes yes and yes. Its disgusting and its annoying and in times it shows horribly. If you want to play a game with badass female lead in last few years? You are out of luck as apart from one or two games, everything is "gruff space marine". The fact that COD now has to MARKET itself as 'HEY WE HAVE WOMEN IN OUR GAME NOW" says it all about the state the industry is in. The overall corporate ass responsible for financing lives at least 5 years behind the current trends and automatically assumes that "gruffspacemarine/helpless damsel" type of sexism is what needs to be there to sell. Not everything is dark and full of terrors, though,a sthe very fact that the gaming community is becoming more and more aware of this problem implies that the tide is slowly changing - all we as gamers need to do is to make our concerns clear and say "yes we want a more progressive approach to representation of gender and sexuality in video games". mecharobot said: It's fine. Companies make games that sell and what people who play games want. They don't exist to make a statement. Feminists are free to make their own games. ^ implying that sexist marketing strategies in any way or form represent the current market. LOL. |
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| Yeah. For the most part men are the 'lead.' Especially in older games where women leads didn't exist. When a woman is a lead in anything she has a particular gender stereotype attached. She can't just be an option, there needs to be particular reason for her being a woman. That's why I tend to pick the female role when given the choice. Females aren't given anywhere near the chance nor liberty male roles are. You can be a kickass guy anytime, but a kickass woman is another thing. |
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mecharobot said: It's fine. Companies make games that sell and what people who play games want. They don't exist to make a statement. Feminists are free to make their own games. That is part of how I look at it as well, video games are a business. If feminist would like to see more games that portray women in a way they see fit, they should do more to support the ones that do. Or get into game development themselves, allowing them to make an effect on the industry first hand. While they are very vocal online, this just shows that not many people feel the way they do. It's shown in the sales numbers, and those are what matter. With indie games becoming so prominent I don't think people will have to try that hard to find games that don't stereotype women(which is great). Not that there's not AAA games already that do this, it actually annoys me how often they will ignore some of the great games that have strong female leads. It just really bothers me how they feel like everything should be made to please their personal views. I don't see how so many people can not see how hypocritical it is, especially in the sense that this is in a way doing nothing but harm to womens rights. It is making it seem like women want special attention, which obviously true feminist don't feel that way. You don't ever see people complaining this much about how men are portrayed, despite the fact they are shown as being highly sexualized and stereotyped just as consistently. You can't please everyone, but this "fad"(that's what it is) of preaching about sexism in video games is really doing nothing but making it more difficult for female gamers. It's just giving assholes yet another stereotype to make fun of female gamers if they say even the slightest thing about how a character looks or something. When the fact is most female gamers don't have any issues with how the women characters are portrayed in most games. A lot of female gamers like to play as a really sexy female character, just how some guys really like playing as some muscular shirtless male character. I've also seen a lot of these "feminist"(they're actually sexist in my opinion) complain that most main playable characters in video games are male(which isn't as true as you might think), and that it makes it hard for them to immerse themselves into the game and enjoy it properly. I know I like to play as a female character from time to time, a good example being Bayonetta. I enjoyed Bayonetta more then Devil May Cry, despite the fact I'm male and both games are the same exact genre and have the same director. You might actually be surprised to find out that about half of the games made in the last 10years have allowed you to play as a female character in some shape or form, most of those being MMO/RPG type games where you can customize your character. It's just so nonsensical, yet it's so common to see these arguments. It is even more surprising that adults, who are professional journalist, are a part of it. It blows my mind that they can't properly see the whole picture, and how hypocritical it all is. Not to say I think there's absolutely no sexism in gaming, there without a doubt is. Male and female sexism and stereotyping, in equal amounts. I just don't think 99% of it is even worth complaining about, in the majority of the world in our day and age women and men are seen as equals. So what is wrong with writers using stereotypes, or portraying characters as they see fit? In my opinion, nothing. |
| People need to accept that video games are low culture. Low culture does shit like that, celebrate the basest, superficial aspects. It's van art for the most part, or shock radio. Cool dudes and tits ahoy. So if feminists are so high falutin', progressive, and educated, why are they wasting so much time on low culture? Why isn't this beneath them, like mud wrestling or rodeo would be beneath them? "But we want video games to mature/improve/be accepted/blaargh!" Yeah, and I want midget tossing to clean up its act, so it's less moronic for me. Actually no, I don't waste time on things that aren't up to my standards. Or... maybe I'm not as progressive and educated as I think I am... |
lucjan said: Yeah. For the most part men are the 'lead.' Especially in older games where women leads didn't exist. When a woman is a lead in anything she has a particular gender stereotype attached. She can't just be an option, there needs to be particular reason for her being a woman. That's why I tend to pick the female role when given the choice. Females aren't given anywhere near the chance nor liberty male roles are. You can be a kickass guy anytime, but a kickass woman is another thing. I disagree, and even in older games there were a fair amount of games out there where you could play as a female main character. Yes, male characters are more common. That is not an argument, it's just showing that more males play video games and it shows in the sales of games. That doesn't mean that games with female characters don't exist, or that they only are used when the game needs "a sexy girl" for you to play as. When people make this argument it just shows me that they don't play many video games, and don't search very hard for the games they want to see. Also you are more critical on female characters then you are on male characters, just to prove your point. You can try and pretend like the only female characters are sexualized and stereotyped, but that is false male characters are too. Lipi said: People need to accept that video games are low culture. Low culture does shit like that, celebrate the basest, superficial aspects. It's van art for the most part, or shock radio. Cool dudes and tits ahoy. So if feminists are so high falutin', progressive, and educated, why are they wasting so much time on low culture? Why isn't this beneath them, like mud wrestling or rodeo would be beneath them? "But we want video games to mature/improve/be accepted/blaargh!" Yeah, and I want midget tossing to clean up its act, so it's less moronic for me. Actually no, I don't waste time on things that aren't up to my standards. Or... maybe I'm not as progressive and educated as I think I am... HA! That's a really good point though, even if I don't completely agree that video games are not ever mature(don't know if you meant exactly that though). You know why this has become so common, because Anita Sarkeesian got $150,000 to make a couple cheaply made you tube videos complaining about tropes in gaming. You think she gave a shit about the topic before money came into the picture? It's all about money and attention. The people preaching about this stuff want one or both, very few of them legitimately just want things to change(and the ones that do tend to not be as jaded/naive as the ones preaching for money/attention). |
FintanSep 16, 2013 11:43 AM
| You could at the very least try to argue that it was around 10 years ago, but not now. |
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Dark_Chaos said: You could at the very least try to argue that it was around 10 years ago, but not now. Honestly, I don't even agree with that. There's been tons of games that have very likeable and respectful playable female characters since the beginning of gaming. It's just the people who scrape the bottom of the barrel looking for the best possible examples of sexism in gaming and pretend that is what all games are like. I could name a LONG list of 8bit/16bit games with a female lead character, and obviously back then with graphical limitations the characters couldn't really be very sexualized. |
| Backseat feminists ftl If they were really feminist about things just make some games that are empowering to the female market. Also, at the end of the day, it's just a game, entertainment, an art form (though someone will say otherwise) and shouldn't be sanitized for political correctness if sensitive content is used correctly and tastefully. |
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TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: A lot of female gamers like to play as a really sexy female character, just how some guys really like playing as some muscular shirtless male character. Just like to point out, this is a rather horrible comparison. Just that isn't even sexualized let alone objectified. http://widgetau.org/male-sexualization-in-video-games/ ^Explains it pretty well, first link that came up when I typed in male sexualization. Seemed to get the point across enough. Going by those standards, pretty much every other medium including anime has a decent amount of male sexualization but it's incredibly rare in video games. (Aside from certain VNs) |
TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Dark_Chaos said: You could at the very least try to argue that it was around 10 years ago, but not now. Honestly, I don't even agree with that. There's been tons of games that have very likeable and respectful playable female characters since the beginning of gaming. It's just the people who scrape the bottom of the barrel looking for the best possible examples of sexism in gaming and pretend that is what all games are like. I could name a LONG list of 8bit/16bit games with a female lead character, and obviously back then with graphical limitations the characters couldn't really be very sexualized. Oh don't get me wrong. I am not saying that it is perfect now, but I do think it is better than it used to be, much better. The only reason why the majority of video games are still catered for Males is because video games catered for females wouldn't sell as much, and companies would lose huge amounts of money. Otherwise it would be happening. Don't blame the companies, blame the customers if you are gonna blame anyone, although really no one is to blame for this to be honest. |
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TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I could name a LONG list of 8bit/16bit games with a female lead character, and obviously back then with graphical limitations the characters couldn't really be very sexualized. Could you share that list? I only know a few of them and would like to play more. |
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Brotwo said: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: A lot of female gamers like to play as a really sexy female character, just how some guys really like playing as some muscular shirtless male character. Just like to point out, this is a rather horrible comparison. Just that isn't even sexualized let alone objectified. http://widgetau.org/male-sexualization-in-video-games/ ^Explains it pretty well, first link that came up when I typed in male sexualization. Seemed to get the point across enough. Going by those standards, pretty much every other medium including anime has a decent amount of male sexualization but it's incredibly rare in video games. (Aside from certain VNs) That was interesting, and I agree with a couple of things it points out. I don't understand how you feel that proves that men are not often sexualized in video games. It also was obviously the opinons of people, for the first half it just stated things people said implying they were correct. The Kratos example of what was "non-sexualized" about him was pretty ridiculous as well. Non-sexualized traits: -Belt covers the V-line (fair enough) -Uses “The Face Off”-pose (What the hell do they even mean by this, they say it multiple times?) -Fabric and bandages covers crotch and buttocks (ok..fair enough) -No libido during sex scenes or when women approach him (...... "during sex scenes"!!!!) -“Surrogate Penis”-physique (....and this is a "non-sexualized trait"?) -Pale skin-color; no sexual appetite (What!?) -Bald (really! being bald is a non sexualized trait?!) I'm not saying they're wrong, but the reason for that is because that entire article was heavily opinionated and not based on anything factual. I would say I agreed with maybe 25% of it, and that I stand by my point that men in video games are almost always designed to be the "alpha male". Yes women have different body structure, and genitals. This means that they are sexualized in different ways, doesn't mean that since men are not sexualized in the same exact way as women that they are not sexualized at all. This is where I start to see feminist as being sexist. Why is it that a male can wear barely any clothing except what covers his genitals, but when a female does the same it is far more sexualized? That article also, like many of these feminist, ignored a large amount of examples that contradict their opinion. Dark_Chaos said: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Dark_Chaos said: You could at the very least try to argue that it was around 10 years ago, but not now. Honestly, I don't even agree with that. There's been tons of games that have very likeable and respectful playable female characters since the beginning of gaming. It's just the people who scrape the bottom of the barrel looking for the best possible examples of sexism in gaming and pretend that is what all games are like. I could name a LONG list of 8bit/16bit games with a female lead character, and obviously back then with graphical limitations the characters couldn't really be very sexualized. Oh don't get me wrong. I am not saying that it is perfect now, but I do think it is better than it used to be, much better. The only reason why the majority of video games are still catered for Males is because video games catered for females wouldn't sell as much, and companies would lose huge amounts of money. Otherwise it would be happening. Don't blame the companies, blame the customers if you are gonna blame anyone, although really no one is to blame for this to be honest. Agreed :) |
| This is such bullshit lol. Overly sexualized perfect woman: http://www.forumla.de/bilder/2010/01/1440.jpg ^ Sexist because she's just sexual objectification. Because attractive women are offensive somehow. Overly sexualized perfect man: http://g1wallz.com/wp-content/uploads/wallz/4727/www-re505-plain.jpg ^ Sexist because he's not a woman. lol |
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Dark_Chaos said: You could at the very least try to argue that it was around 10 years ago, but not now. Incorrect. Arguably back then it was better, as shocking as it is. We had games like Beyond Good And Evil, Longest Journey, Syberia, etc. around the end of 90's we had this big boom all about promoting gender equality, be it tv shows or gamers. And the 2000's came and it all started to be gradually undone due to propaganda via enlightened sexism Hoppy said: Backseat feminists ftl If they were really feminist about things just make some games that are empowering to the female market. Also, at the end of the day, it's just a game, entertainment, an art form (though someone will say otherwise) and shouldn't be sanitized for political correctness if sensitive content is used correctly and tastefully. Good luck "MAKING" something when half the industry is against you. Also sorry. "just because its just an art" doe snot mean that it has to be offensive, nor does it change the fact that it being offensive means that it markets itself upon discrimination. Lipi said: People need to accept that video games are low culture. Low culture does shit like that, celebrate the basest, superficial aspects. It's van art for the most part, or shock radio. Cool dudes and tits ahoy. So if feminists are so high falutin', progressive, and educated, why are they wasting so much time on low culture? Why isn't this beneath them, like mud wrestling or rodeo would be beneath them? "But we want video games to mature/improve/be accepted/blaargh!" Yeah, and I want midget tossing to clean up its act, so it's less moronic for me. Actually no, I don't waste time on things that aren't up to my standards. Or... maybe I'm not as progressive and educated as I think I am... Oh excuse me I did not know that GOd himself visits the thread, well tahnk you for enlightening us on what we MUST think the gaming industry is and will always be. Red_Keys said: This is such bullshit lol. Overly sexualized perfect woman: http://www.forumla.de/bilder/2010/01/1440.jpg ^ Sexist because she's just sexual objectification. Because attractive women are offensive somehow. Overly sexualized perfect man: http://g1wallz.com/wp-content/uploads/wallz/4727/www-re505-plain.jpg ^ Sexist because he's not a woman. lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege Stop being gross. Also you need to brush up upon your definition of sexism, as your post implies y ou have no freaking clue on what it is exactly. Because those two pictures DO prove the point of gaming being sexist, due to both of them falling in stereotypical gender roles. |
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Fai said: Male privilege. What a bunch of horse shit.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege Stop being gross. |
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yazio said: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I could name a LONG list of 8bit/16bit games with a female lead character, and obviously back then with graphical limitations the characters couldn't really be very sexualized. Could you share that list? I only know a few of them and would like to play more. Metroid/Super Metroid Pocky & Rocky 1&2 Valis 1-5 Alisia Dragoon Monster World IV Some of my favorites where you play as a female character. I don't really feel like listing the massive amounts of Fighters, RPGs, Beat Em' Ups, and other games that have the option as playing a female character(those count!). There's also a shit ton of Japanese only games that have female characters I noticed, and games I just haven't played. Also, games like Kirby for example(those mascot games were insanely popular) or like a sports, shoot em' up, or just games where the sex of the character hardly even plays a role should be mentioned just because of how much of the games they make up. I will admit that I exaggerated a bit of how many there were in 8/16 bit, but I'm also too lazy to really search out the ones I haven't played. PS1 onward there were more and more, and then now there's a ton. |
Red_Keys said: Fai said: Male privilege. What a bunch of horse shit.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege Stop being gross. I agree there's no male privilege at least in any first world country. |
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DateYutaka said: Sexualiztion yes Sexism no there has been a srtong frmale lead in 5 of the past 6 on MMO FF games for example Agreed, and the sexualization is of both male and female. MMO's are actually a prime example of how many video games are far from being sexist. Actual sexism would be if an MMO only allowed you to play as a male(which would cause it to sell horribly), or if you chose a female character you were far weaker and weren't able to do things the male characters could do. It's like people don't even realize what real sexism is. Fai said: Dark_Chaos said: You could at the very least try to argue that it was around 10 years ago, but not now. Incorrect. Arguably back then it was better, as shocking as it is. We had games like Beyond Good And Evil, Longest Journey, Syberia, etc. around the end of 90's we had this big boom all about promoting gender equality, be it tv shows or gamers. And the 2000's came and it all started to be gradually undone due to propaganda via enlightened sexism Hoppy said: Backseat feminists ftl If they were really feminist about things just make some games that are empowering to the female market. Also, at the end of the day, it's just a game, entertainment, an art form (though someone will say otherwise) and shouldn't be sanitized for political correctness if sensitive content is used correctly and tastefully. Good luck "MAKING" something when half the industry is against you. Also sorry. "just because its just an art" doe snot mean that it has to be offensive, nor does it change the fact that it being offensive means that it markets itself upon discrimination. Lipi said: People need to accept that video games are low culture. Low culture does shit like that, celebrate the basest, superficial aspects. It's van art for the most part, or shock radio. Cool dudes and tits ahoy. So if feminists are so high falutin', progressive, and educated, why are they wasting so much time on low culture? Why isn't this beneath them, like mud wrestling or rodeo would be beneath them? "But we want video games to mature/improve/be accepted/blaargh!" Yeah, and I want midget tossing to clean up its act, so it's less moronic for me. Actually no, I don't waste time on things that aren't up to my standards. Or... maybe I'm not as progressive and educated as I think I am... Oh excuse me I did not know that GOd himself visits the thread, well tahnk you for enlightening us on what we MUST think the gaming industry is and will always be. Red_Keys said: This is such bullshit lol. Overly sexualized perfect woman: http://www.forumla.de/bilder/2010/01/1440.jpg ^ Sexist because she's just sexual objectification. Because attractive women are offensive somehow. Overly sexualized perfect man: http://g1wallz.com/wp-content/uploads/wallz/4727/www-re505-plain.jpg ^ Sexist because he's not a woman. lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege Stop being gross. Also you need to brush up upon your definition of sexism, as your post implies y ou have no freaking clue on what it is exactly. Because those two pictures DO prove the point of gaming being sexist, due to both of them falling in stereotypical gender roles. Are you trolling? I really hope so. |
FintanSep 16, 2013 1:57 PM
TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: That was interesting, and I agree with a couple of things it points out. I don't understand how you feel that proves that men are not often sexualized in video games. Because the sexual traits that they listed (which you didn't mention) are not present in almost all video games but are in sizeable portions of tv/movies/anime which are aimed at a female demographic or otome/yaoi VN. The non sexual traits they listed are also often missing from very sexual characters in said media. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: It also was obviously the opinons of people, for the first half it just stated things people said implying they were correct. It's pretty hard to honestly say that scene in ME they showed wasn't a male gaze or that Free! for example isn't designed for a female gaze. The start was identifying the two gazes and what constitutes a sexualized male. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Why is it that a male can wear barely any clothing except what covers his genitals, but when a female does the same it is far more sexualized? A. Females characters often have emphasis on their genitals even when covered up, males don't. B. Ass, which is shown on females and not males the vast majority of the time or at least emphasized. C. Boobs are more sexualized than a man's chest. d. Overall physique, the alpha male design is what men want to be - not necessarily what women want though they share a few similarities they aren't the same. Likewise the women are usually what men want, not what women want to be. |
TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: yazio said: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I could name a LONG list of 8bit/16bit games with a female lead character, and obviously back then with graphical limitations the characters couldn't really be very sexualized. Could you share that list? I only know a few of them and would like to play more. Metroid/Super Metroid Pocky & Rocky 1&2 Valis 1-5 Alisia Dragoon Monster World IV Also Phantasy Star. 8-bit game from way back in 1987 where you play as a badass female warrior. |
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Brotwo said: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: That was interesting, and I agree with a couple of things it points out. I don't understand how you feel that proves that men are not often sexualized in video games. Because the sexual traits that they listed (which you didn't mention) are not present in almost all video games but are in sizeable portions of tv/movies/anime which are aimed at a female demographic or otome/yaoi VN. The non sexual traits they listed are also often missing from very sexual characters in said media. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: It also was obviously the opinons of people, for the first half it just stated things people said implying they were correct. It's pretty hard to honestly say that scene in ME they showed wasn't a male gaze or that Free! for example isn't designed for a female gaze. The start was identifying the two gazes and what constitutes a sexualized male. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Why is it that a male can wear barely any clothing except what covers his genitals, but when a female does the same it is far more sexualized? A. Females characters often have emphasis on their genitals even when covered up, males don't. B. Ass, which is shown on females and not males the vast majority of the time or at least emphasized. C. Boobs are more sexualized than a man's chest. d. Overall physique, the alpha male design is what men want to be - not necessarily what women want though they share a few similarities they aren't the same. Likewise the women are usually what men want, not what women want to be. I disagree, plain and simple. A lot of men like sexy women, they like breasts and a beautiful body. Lots of games, like movies and other media, can be targeted at men. Men like breasts, and beautiful women! The people who create these things shouldn't have to force themselves to appeal to everyone, that's ridiculous. Also how men are sexualized doesn't have to be in the same way as how Japanese women do(fusjoshi, who are like otaku in that most of the population does not feel the way they do...). Fact is, men and women have different bodies(shocker I know). This means the way they are sexualized and what men and women find attractive about each other is different. Trying to act like men aren't sexualized because they aren't sexualized in the same exact ways as women is nonsense. I will admit, women do tend to be sexualized slightly more often in video games. You know why? BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE MEN! It's not wrong for game developers to try to appeal to men. They can make whatever they want, as long as it is within the law. They don't, and shouldn't, be forced to change their ideas to please feminist. Also, once again, people exaggerate how few games have strong female characters in them. A. Females characters often have emphasis on their genitals even when covered up, males don't.: You mean womens breasts, correct? Because you can hardly emphasize a vagina, unless you mean like ecchi levels where they basically use underware as a way around censors(no often used in anything besides Japanese media, and niche media at that). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIB3vC9R9Xc (have fun with that) B. Ass, which is shown on females and not males the vast majority of the time or at least emphasized. http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/14517000/ngbbs4731d77f36005.jpg Also, didn't know if you were aware but women are naturally more curvy then men. Their ass and breasts are more emphasized, in real life! That's how the female body is! C. Boobs are more sexualized than a man's chest.: Shows why we see things differently. You ever notice how a lot of normal women, young and old will wear shirts that show cleavage? It's not like it's something that women should be ashamed of. Just like men aren't ashamed of taking of their shirts at the beach or when it's hot. Equality. D. Overall physique, the alpha male design is what men want to be - not necessarily what women want though they share a few similarities they aren't the same. Likewise the women are usually what men want, not what women want to be: Who says every guy wants to be some muscle head who shoots first and thinks never? Maybe some guys do, but some don't. Just like some women might wish they were some super sexy bimbo, while others do not. Once again, and I think this is the most important part of this whole debate. Sexualizing men or women IS NOT SEXIST! |
FintanSep 16, 2013 4:15 PM
| Depends on the game. In many MMORPGs female armors are more revealing and if by chance a girl is playing than all the guys either flock to her offering help or making lame "get back in the kitchen" jokes. |
| Inb4 Dragon's Crown |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
RT251 said: Depends on the game. In many MMORPGs female armors are more revealing and if by chance a girl is playing than all the guys either flock to her offering help or making lame "get back in the kitchen" jokes. I was more talking about in games as in the actual games. You're right in that a lot of male gamers are "sexist", but I think it's more they're bitter because of the lack of attention they get from females. It's also a stereotype, but stereotypes are based on reality. A lot of gamers, especially the ones who play video games for many hours a day, don't have girlfriends and have difficulty with women. So I have noticed a lot of the time you will see them basically take it out on whatever random female they run into online, basically because they're able to vent from the safety of their basement. This all just comes back to the fact that most gamers are male, this is why games try so hard to appeal to men, and it's also why women seem to be outcasts in an online community. Plus online gaming is no different from the internet in that there's a lot of idiots who use the fact no one can do anything to them as an excuse to take out their anger on people by verbally insulting them. Sad, but that's how things are. Plenty of female gamers manage to deal with it, and a lot of them just don't use voice chat(hell I never use voice chat either). Examples like that I don't think represent the actual gaming community as a whole. Higashi_no_Kaze said: Inb4 Dragon's Crown So true, a women with big breasts is so revolting and it's with out a doubt sexist. Yea, it's definitely sexist :) |
Hoppy said: If they were really feminist about things just make some games that are empowering to the female market. |
| my avatar is the bus driver from Rosario + Vampire |
TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I disagree, plain and simple. A lot of men like sexy women, they like breasts and a beautiful body. Lots of games, like movies and other media, can be targeted at men. Men like breasts, and beautiful women! The people who create these things shouldn't have to force themselves to appeal to everyone, that's ridiculous. Irrelevant to our particular discussion, don’t know what words I’m saying in your mind where that is an appropriate back-up to why you disagree with me. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Also how men are sexualized doesn't have to be in the same way as how Japanese women do(fusjoshi, who are like otaku in that most of the population does not feel the way they do...). Fact is, men and women have different bodies(shocker I know). This means the way they are sexualized and what men and women find attractive about each other is different. Trying to act like men aren't sexualized because they aren't sexualized in the same exact ways as women is nonsense. The sexualized males the article demonstrated were definitely sexualized in a different way than the females are and did take into account body type, you can see that can’t you? TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I will admit, women do tend to be sexualized slightly more often in video games. Slightly more often isn’t what I was going for but it’s an improvement. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: You know why? BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE MEN! It's not wrong for game developers to try to appeal to men. They can make whatever they want, as long as it is within the law. They don't, and shouldn't, be forced to change their ideas to please feminist. Also, once again, people exaggerate how few games have strong female characters in them. Never said they should be forced to change their games nor did I mention anything about how few/many strong female characters there are – you’re veering off our discussion again trying to broaden it. (which is fucking pointless if we can’t find an understanding on this one small point) My point is still that the “alpha male” typical guy isn’t someone cooked up to be sexy for females, they’re for male gamers to have their idealized self and someone who is meant to be sexy for females doesn’t normally look like the typical 30 year old super buff gruff guy. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: A. Females characters often have emphasis on their genitals even when covered up, males don't.: You mean womens breasts, correct? Because you can hardly emphasize a vagina, unless you mean like ecchi levels where they basically use underware as a way around censors(no often used in anything besides Japanese media, and niche media at that). No, I meant what I said. Though you’re right that it’s almost all only Japanese media, the fighting games that come over from there are quite popular however (didn’t even realize some of the ones I’ve played were originally from Japan) and I was mostly referring to those such as in Soul Calibur or a few JRPGs. Even with only fighting games and a few JRPGs, that’s still more than the male equivalent. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIB3vC9R9Xc (have fun with that) Jack TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: B. Ass, which is shown on females and not males the vast majority of the time or at least emphasized. http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/14517000/ngbbs4731d77f36005.jpg Also, didn't know if you were aware but women are naturally more curvy then men. Their ass and breasts are more emphasized, in real life! That's how the female body is! C. Boobs are more sexualized than a man's chest.: Shows why we see things differently. You ever notice how a lot of normal women, young and old will wear shirts that show cleavage? It's not like it's something that women should be ashamed of. Just like men aren't ashamed of taking of their shirts at the beach or when it's hot. Equality. Huh, in B you go on to say that their ass and breasts are more emphasized along the lines of “That’s real life, didn’t know if you were aware” then flip over on C and deny that said emphasized breasts are more sexualized than a man’s chest? Make up your mind. BTW, I never said that a man’s butt is as equally sexual as a female’s. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Who says every guy wants to be some muscle head who shoots first and thinks never? Maybe some guys do, but some don't. No fucking idea who said that. As for the other statement, many guys do – the other significant portion are often in the games where they’re a scrawny teen so they can more closely identify yet still kick ass. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Just like some women might wish they were some super sexy bimbo, while others do not. Rarely does one get to choose to be said super sexy bimbo, they’re usually designed for men to look at not for women to play. Even in fighting games where they are there for choosing it’s primarily for men to enjoy the sight. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: Once again, and I think this is the most important part of this whole debate. Sexualizing men or women IS NOT SEXIST! I chose a common misconception you stated and am trying to correct it, that misconception being that the typical “alpha male” is sexualized to females as much as the typical female in video games is to males. I don’t really care about the important part of this whole “debate” nor am I naive enough to think that such a debate could actually change anyone’s minds on this forum but I was hoping for this one misconception to be cleared up for one person. It’s ending up to be an arduous task but I believe it’s having somewhat of an effect. |
BrotwoSep 17, 2013 9:37 AM
TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: lucjan said: Yeah. For the most part men are the 'lead.' Especially in older games where women leads didn't exist. When a woman is a lead in anything she has a particular gender stereotype attached. She can't just be an option, there needs to be particular reason for her being a woman. That's why I tend to pick the female role when given the choice. Females aren't given anywhere near the chance nor liberty male roles are. You can be a kickass guy anytime, but a kickass woman is another thing. I disagree, and even in older games there were a fair amount of games out there where you could play as a female main character. Yes, male characters are more common. That is not an argument, it's just showing that more males play video games and it shows in the sales of games. That doesn't mean that games with female characters don't exist, or that they only are used when the game needs "a sexy girl" for you to play as. When people make this argument it just shows me that they don't play many video games, and don't search very hard for the games they want to see. Also you are more critical on female characters then you are on male characters, just to prove your point. You can try and pretend like the only female characters are sexualized and stereotyped, but that is false male characters are too. Oh definitely, I play nooooooooooooooooo video games >.> Women have always played video games. Even if men were the target audience that doesn't mean you exclude the female sex; many of them are video game fans. And the role women are put into in video games is proof of the sexism. You can never just be a girl for the point of being a girl. There's always differences from the male charachter! As if the female belongs to a certain stereotype. |
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| Okay, I looked at the thread and now I understand what you're trying to say. Yes many female characters in games are made to be sex symbols but that is because the developers of those games don't expect girls to be interested in their game. So they decide "fuck it, why waste our time appealing to girls when we can just get more guys to play by putting sexy girls in skimpy outfits". Follow the money mate. |
RT251 said: Okay, I looked at the thread and now I understand what you're trying to say. Yes many female characters in games are made to be sex symbols but that is because the developers of those games don't expect girls to be interested in their game. So they decide "fuck it, why waste our time appealing to girls when we can just get more guys to play by putting sexy girls in skimpy outfits". Follow the money mate. There really aren't that many games with female characters that are made to be sexualized, just think about how few games have nudity(despite the fact it's not against the ESRB rating system). Just go to amazon and scroll down all the popular games, there's barely any games that have female characters that are presented in a negative light. I don't count a character having big breasts, that's insane. What every character is supposed to have small-medium sized breasts, there's no large breasts allowed despite tons of women in real life having them? I don't even think most of the situations where people say a character is "sexualized" that they even are, which is why I had trouble getting my point across with brotwo. No matter if feminist like it, revealing clothing has become the norm in real life. When you go to the beach do you consider every women in a bathing suit to be "sexualized"? Probably not. I consider sexualized to be when they appear to be inviting sex, either with what they say or body langauge. Which you see a lot less then just a female/male character in revealing clothing. I think the whole "she's wearing so little clothes, she must want sex" thing is completely sexist. It is actually mindblowing that "feminist" use that as examples of sexualization. |
TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: RT251 said: Depends on the game. In many MMORPGs female armors are more revealing and if by chance a girl is playing than all the guys either flock to her offering help or making lame "get back in the kitchen" jokes. I was more talking about in games as in the actual games. You're right in that a lot of male gamers are "sexist", but I think it's more they're bitter because of the lack of attention they get from females. It's also a stereotype, but stereotypes are based on reality. A lot of gamers, especially the ones who play video games for many hours a day, don't have girlfriends and have difficulty with women. So I have noticed a lot of the time you will see them basically take it out on whatever random female they run into online, basically because they're able to vent from the safety of their basement. This all just comes back to the fact that most gamers are male, this is why games try so hard to appeal to men, and it's also why women seem to be outcasts in an online community. Plus online gaming is no different from the internet in that there's a lot of idiots who use the fact no one can do anything to them as an excuse to take out their anger on people by verbally insulting them. Sad, but that's how things are. Plenty of female gamers manage to deal with it, and a lot of them just don't use voice chat(hell I never use voice chat either). Examples like that I don't think represent the actual gaming community as a whole. Higashi_no_Kaze said: Inb4 Dragon's Crown So true, a women with big breasts is so revolting and it's with out a doubt sexist. Yea, it's definitely sexist :) Those weren't breasts, those were mutant lifeforms. Dat Amazon ass too. Sexist or not, it was pretty gross and reminded me of Queens Blade and the likes. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Higashi_no_Kaze said: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: RT251 said: Depends on the game. In many MMORPGs female armors are more revealing and if by chance a girl is playing than all the guys either flock to her offering help or making lame "get back in the kitchen" jokes. I was more talking about in games as in the actual games. You're right in that a lot of male gamers are "sexist", but I think it's more they're bitter because of the lack of attention they get from females. It's also a stereotype, but stereotypes are based on reality. A lot of gamers, especially the ones who play video games for many hours a day, don't have girlfriends and have difficulty with women. So I have noticed a lot of the time you will see them basically take it out on whatever random female they run into online, basically because they're able to vent from the safety of their basement. This all just comes back to the fact that most gamers are male, this is why games try so hard to appeal to men, and it's also why women seem to be outcasts in an online community. Plus online gaming is no different from the internet in that there's a lot of idiots who use the fact no one can do anything to them as an excuse to take out their anger on people by verbally insulting them. Sad, but that's how things are. Plenty of female gamers manage to deal with it, and a lot of them just don't use voice chat(hell I never use voice chat either). Examples like that I don't think represent the actual gaming community as a whole. Higashi_no_Kaze said: Inb4 Dragon's Crown So true, a women with big breasts is so revolting and it's with out a doubt sexist. Yea, it's definitely sexist :) Those weren't breasts, those were mutant lifeforms. Dat Amazon ass too. Sexist or not, it was pretty gross and reminded me of Queens Blade and the likes. Fair enough, but regardless it's not sexist. I think you might be taking it all a bit too serious if you really found it disgusting. Unlike an ecchi/hentai like Queens Blade there was no nudity or even close to it. Just cleavage, big breasts, and a muscular women. |
| Go away Anita Sarkeesian. |
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| It seems that people are under the misconception that sexualization = sexism. If sexualization is sexism, then I can name a bunch of games that are sexist against men. One thing I also want to point, we shouldn't really take what the so-called "feminists" say seriously. They don't talk about sexism, they talk about ridiculous shit such as "equality" while making it even more ridiculous than it already is. |
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yhunata said: It seems that people are under the misconception that sexualization = sexism. If sexualization is sexism, then I can name a bunch of games that are sexist against men. One thing I also want to point, we shouldn't really take what the so-called "feminists" say seriously. They don't talk about sexism, they talk about ridiculous shit such as "equality" while making it even more ridiculous than it already is. ^this is mostly correct, minus the feminist part. Sexism is all about putting genders into stereotypes. An in those stereotypes a male figure is celebrated while female is shamed for the exact same things(a man slept with four women in one month? OMG how awesome! That woman dared to have four partners in one month? OMG what a slut!) The very IDEA of sexism is that there's a functional difference between people based on their gender. No it does not just affect females. AS surprising as it is, sexism DOES hurt the privileged gender(showing emotion is followed by homophobic slurs, the surrounding society has certain expectations based solely on t he gender, etc) So yes. Feminism IS about equality. About tipping back the scales to equal position. Because no matter what radicals on either side says, stereotypical portrayal of gender IS hurtful to both privileged and oppressed gender. |
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| Demanding adherence to gender equality in any form of entertainment is basically a call for censorship. |
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Fai said: But there is.The very IDEA of sexism is that there's a functional difference between people based on their gender. Reproduction is incredibly biologically different for each sex, and very well explains this mentality: Fai said: (a man slept with four women in one month? OMG how awesome! That woman dared to have four partners in one month? OMG what a slut!) You see (strictly biologically speaking), a man has no "risks" when reproducing. He has sex, releases his sperm, and his job is done. His testicles generate another batch of sperm, and he's ready to reproduce again as soon as his dick re-hardens. A woman on the other hand, actually gets pregnant. There are huge risks for her when reproducing. The physical stress of pregnancy, the extra burden of sustaining another living organism inside of you, impaired emotional stability, etc. And then the actual childbirth process can be incredibly detrimental to a woman's health, even sometimes resulting in death. And once she's pregnant, she's unable to reproduce again for another 9 months, not taking into account recovery time from the childbirth. That fact about our biological method of reproduction affects our psychology very much. We are animals, we have instincts. A woman is instinctually more selective when deciding to who to reproduce with. It's a huge deal for her. She wants to reproduce with a man whom she deems worthy (finds attractive). After all, sexual attraction is nothing but our instincts telling us who is (and who isn't) a suitable mate. And since pregnancy is a life-altering, incredibly important, one-chance deal, the woman is instinctually inclined to be more cautious about sex, and "save it" for somebody she really deems worthy. This is all speaking strictly in basic human biological instinct. If she gets impregnated by the "wrong" man, she's stuck with an inadequate child, with inadequate genes she does not deem worthy, and she still has to go through the grueling pregnancy and birthing process. A man on the other hand is instinctually inclined to not be as selective. That's not to say that men don't have criteria for who is and who isn't a suitable mate. I mean, it's rather obvious that men deem certain women attractive (good genes = good mate), and other women unattractive (bad genes = bad mate). But if a man impregnates the "wrong" woman, there are no drawbacks. There's no 9 month pregnancy for him. There's no health risks. There's none of that. If he impregnates the "wrong" girl, he can just up and leave, wait for his sperm to accumulate, and impregnate the next girl. He doesn't have to be cautious about sex, because sex isn't a life-altering, potentially fatal, one-chance, ordeal for him. Strictly biologically speaking. It's this human instinct, based on the biological reproductive differences between the sexes, that creates this societal outlook on "sluts". Women, by instinct, are not openly sexually provocative. Men are. But in today's world, with contraception, birth control, and other products widely available, sex can be looked at as more of a casual thing for women. I mean, sex feels good for both men and women. Both men and women want sex. And now we can have risk free sex, for both men and women. But a woman being "loose" with her sexuality, even though it isn't a big deal in today's society, still goes against our biological instinctual outlook on women. It gives us conflicting emotions. The same way how you can know that most spiders are harmless, are good for the environment, and incredibly important to the ecosystem. But at the same time, be terrified of spiders, and feel absolutely no remorse when you kill one. It's instinct overriding logic. You know that, in today's world, a woman having casual sex/being sexually provocative/not "cautious" isn't a big deal any more. But you still feel like it's "wrong", get uncomfortable, and disagree with it, because those are our instincts. It's instinct overriding logic. This also explains why rape is taken so much more seriously when a woman is the victim as well. A male rape victim has no reproductive repercussions. Ignoring the psychological damage, the only thing a man "loses" while being raped, is an ejaculation. A female rape victim, however, can become impregnated. Again, ignoring the psychological aspect, she can potentially "lose" 9 months of her life, and be stuck with an unwanted child, with genes that she herself didn't select. I'm all for gender equality. But I think a lot of feminists are simply misguided, and I most certainly do not identify as a feminist. Yes, there are differences between men and women. No, these differences were not arbitrarily made up by the "patriarchy" in order to demean women. We have instincts. You can't just ignore biology. |
Red_KeysSep 19, 2013 11:24 AM
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Red_Keys said: Fai said: But there is.The very IDEA of sexism is that there's a functional difference between people based on their gender. Reproduction is incredibly biologically different for each sex, and very well explains this mentality: Wtf is this shit I am reading. This never was relevant. It does not affect them in any way or form and wihth current medical knowledge, the " type" of reproductive organs is inter-changeable. Its the same kind of bs as saying "our skin color affects our life because its based on our biology". You see (strictly biologically speaking), a man has no "risks" when reproducing. He has sex, releases his sperm, and his job is done. His testicles generate another batch of sperm, and he's ready to reproduce again as soon as his dick re-hardens. A woman on the other hand, actually gets pregnant. There are huge risks for her when reproducing. The physical stress of pregnancy, the extra burden of sustaining another living organism inside of you, impaired emotional stability, etc. And then the actual childbirth process can be incredibly detrimental to a woman's health, even sometimes resulting in death. And once she's pregnant, she's unable to reproduce again for another 9 months, not taking into account recovery time from the childbirth. And this stopped being relevant with freely available contraception. Oh and abortion. Why is a man "less" responsible for GETTING someone pregnant than it is for a woman to GET pregnant? That in itself is sexist as fuck. Let's not even start about the fact that you are insinuating that man is not responsible for sexually transmitted diseases or disregard for protection. Stop being sexist, its gross and you are not able to hide it that well as most of those kinds of people. That fact about our biological method of reproduction affects our psychology very much. We are animals, we have instincts. Congrats you just used the same logic people use when they try to justify rape.. won't bother to answer the rest of the crap because it assumes that: 1) people can't hold their own reason and well, humanity, over animalistic urges. 2) people can only be heterosexual. which in turn makes it a self-defeating argument. |
AhenshihaelSep 19, 2013 12:20 PM
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| Holy shit. Way to completely miss the point. Can somebody with a fucking brain please respond to my post? I feel like all my writing was wasted, seeing as it was directed at a fucking idiot. |
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Penulma said: I think it's a great and important discussion that will move videogames forward to being a respectable and progressive mediumgood goyim! Only if its taken seriously and not thrown under a bus. The biggest problem with discussing any sort of offensive or problematic themes is that someone will 100% try to silence the discussion by saying that its "unimportant" or "its humor gee you don't get it too sophisticated"(which I still can't understand, since a form of comedy that relies on exploiting and offending others for sake of cheap jokes still does not sound in any way "sophisticated). Ignoring and sayiing that its totally "no problem no more" is exactly what enlightened sexism is about - implying that work of feminism is "done", that its already equal and that its great as it is". And yeah. Only by discussion and saying that this shit is not okay we can avoid that shit continuing. Anyway. I am going to just leave this here: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/09/20/opinion-blue-estates-humiliated-mermaid-wont-leave-me-alone/ |
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| Most gamers give me second hand embarrassment, and not because plenty of them are sexist twats, its because many of them are just twats in general. |
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TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I don't even think most of the situations where people say a character is "sexualized" that they even are, which is why I had trouble getting my point across with brotwo. No matter if feminist like it, revealing clothing has become the norm in real life. When you go to the beach do you consider every women in a bathing suit to be "sexualized"? Probably not. I consider sexualized to be when they appear to be inviting sex, either with what they say or body langauge. Which you see a lot less then just a female/male character in revealing clothing. I think the whole "she's wearing so little clothes, she must want sex" thing is completely sexist. It is actually mindblowing that "feminist" use that as examples of sexualization. TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: I don't understand how you feel that proves that men are not often sexualized in video games. So, do you think men are often sexualized in video games or not, I'm confused. In that regard, how often is "often"? How much more sexualized do you think a typical "alpha male" design is to a female compared to a typical "sexy bimbo" design is to a man. This whole discussion I sparked with you was because I thought you assumed they were of equal (and sexualized) designs when in fact both are primarily aimed at the male demographic for reasons you yourself stated (commercial). I don't even care that said games do that, I just find it silly you try to act as if those games have as much sexual emphasis on the male characters as they do on the female characters with stuff like: TinkleTinkle-Hoy said: "A lot of female gamers like to play as a really sexy female character, just how some guys really like playing as some muscular shirtless male character. " Or cite examples like MMO/RPG and Bayonetta when referencing good female characters. (when they're still primarily designed for us, the males) |
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