| most reviewers i've seen score anime taking into account the date of release. If they would rate the shows by today's standards their flaws would definitely be more obvious |
| Most people are able to realize that a lot of shows are products of their time and are able to take that into account while scoring them. An example is Hajime no Ippo, which I'm watching right now. One of the main gags is about how Ippo has a large dick and Takamura constantly tries to show other people how big Ippo's dick is when Ippo doesn't want that, which is of course very weird and would be considered borderline pedophilic these days at first, considering Ippo is 16 when Takamura first starts doing it. Hajime no Ippo also has homophobic jokes and other stuff along that line. All I can do is laugh at them though, because Hajime no Ippo started at the end of the 80s when jokes and gags like these were considered more acceptable. I have realized though that when it comes to homophobia, Japanese media seems to much more progressive for the most part than Western media though. Shinji in Eva is clearly bisexual/ biromantic or something along those lines, and Lain in Serial Experiments Lain is hinted to be bisexual too, despite both series having come out during the 90s. Another thing to take into account is that most older anime were made mainly for the Japanese audience, which of course has very different political views than the Western audience in general. I'm not saying that the time doesn't matter, but of course there would be clashes in cultural views when intaking media from other cultures. At the end of the day there isn't much we can do to change anime that have already come out, we can just accept that they're products of their time. |
KayY_YApr 24, 2022 8:28 AM
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| Because if you are a true critic you don't judge an anime based on ethics but on how creatively it was used to make the anime look more impactful. Best example R-scene from Goblin Slayer and R-scene from Berserk has a huge difference the latter one shows how it impacts the story |
AatihoNora said: Because if you are a true critic you don't judge an anime based on ethics but on how creatively it was used to make the anime look more impactful. this is the best answer here mediums reflect the times in which they're released Berserk has elements of homophobia Ashita no Joe (70s anime) has elements of minor racism but if you're a true critic (or enjoyer) or anime , you roll with the punches and judge the media as a whole , not on its "political correctness" |
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| Once I watched an anime and there was racism, it triggered my ancestral memory 😭😭😭 |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Kafka, Fu Xuan, Jingliu, Topaz and Huohuo. |
squirrvev said: kushmonatl said: but if you're a true critic (or enjoyer) or anime , you roll with the punches and judge the media as a whole , not on its "political correctness" relying heavily on the power words, huh also, I'm talking about recommendations, which are supposed to give people an idea of what to expect from the show. Setting aside something as relevant when it comes to enjoyment as politics obviously obscures certain elements of the show, so I don't know on what basis are you calling this "judging the media as a whole". You know how parts of a whole work, right ? But I guess doing reviews/recs in any other way is probably incorrect for you. I wonder if you know what irony is I'm not sure what power words are .. and lol no need to make it a personal attack on my character I'll give you an example, Goddfellas is one of my favorite movies , Goodfellas has elements of racism . That's not gonna stop Goodfellas from being one of my top movies , and I'd still be open to recommend it to other people I guess to answer your recommendation question , just say in the recs "the show contains xyz that might make you uncomfortable" :) problem solved |
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| Applying modern values to fairly mainstream opinions at the time is a condescending way of looking down on people in the past. People at the time were operating under social pressure and held opinions based on their best judgement at the time. Why shouldn't we have to deal with the past even if it makes us deeply uncomfortable? How would we ever change the minds of people who still hold those beliefs if we only asked "How could they believe that?" and never "Why do they believe that?"? And most importantly how would we prevent the world from reverting to that state if we don't understand how those beliefs became commonly held in the first place? |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| You can just google something like "is <show's name> offensive to <group name>" or whatever. I don't think a reviewer would be capable of mentioning every single aspect of an anime that might offend every single person who might happen to give it a watch especially knowing how people just LOVE getting offended by everything these days |
kushmonatl said: mediums reflect the times in which they're released Berserk has elements of homophobia Ashita no Joe (70s anime) has elements of minor racism but if you're a true critic (or enjoyer) or anime , you roll with the punches and judge the media as a whole , not on its "political correctness" Completely agree with this. Anime series are products of their time. PC culture wasn't a thing back then. So, I think it would be disingenuous to critic them with today's standards. At the end of the day, what truly matters is if the story has heart and is impactiful. As kushmonatl said Berserk has elements of homophobia and that's completely true. Characters have used the "f" word in a deragatory way. For me, that's an interesting gateway of the culture and what was acceptable back then. It doesn't take away from the manga at all. Hell, Berserk imo is the best written work I've ever read. So yeah, in conclusion I can easily look past these instances and admire the work as a whole. |
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| ....Seen LOTGH/ Versailles no Bara/ Kidou Keisatsu Patlabor / Top wo Nerae! Gunbuster/ Kenpuu Denki Berserk/ Trigun/ Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku/ Noir/ Akage no Anne....etc...and a lot of older movies and OVAs....like Tenshi no Tamago / Black Magic M-66/ Applesead/ Akira/ Cyber City Oedo 808/ Armitage III/ Key the Metal Idol etc... ....Nothing wrong there. The quality of the writing is not the same, of course, but I never had a problem recommending these shows. The politics were always a good aspect of the story when it comes to the writing when they were used. ...So the presence of it was never a problem, just that the writing wasn't at the same level....! If anything, I think a lot of older shows should have a higher score and be judged based on the story rather than the production quality, which of course is not at the same level of the seasonal series that we get nowadays... |
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squirrvev said: have you ever found an older show surprisingly bad when it comes to stuff like racism or homophobia ? Denying a show because of the time in which it was created is like denying that part of history existed. Yes, it was a bad time but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored or shunned because then people are turning a blind eye to the past and history. |
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| A show featuring what some people might consider "outdated depictions" of something rarely should detract from the experience unless it's something dumb like native americans being red because some ancient leader was blushing. And even that isn't offensive (imo), just something silly to make 1911 urban english kids entertained. |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| If you see outdated ideas in old anime as anything other than quaint or funny, then you might be taking them too seriously. Old anime have a niche viewerbase in an already niche medium, the chances of them having any effect on societal attitudes towards serious issues is near zero. |
| I feel like the gap isn't that big and you can't even distinguish older from newer anime because newer ones are just as or even more problematic imo. |
idk why I was here but I'm prob back to playing Dragon's Dogma 2 again when you read this |
| "The problem with recommending older shows" The same problem as recommending newer shows, you will get responses like: - Its score is below 8 and won't waste precious time watching trash. - But people don't talk about it, it must be dumb. - But you don't have currently popular shows on your favourites list, thus I can't trust you opinion. - But you hate AOT, thus you are an imbecile. |
alshuApr 24, 2022 7:35 AM
| if the people you would be recommending it to are going to make such a fuss about it, then maybe don't bother |
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| It depends really on how those aspects are implemented. It's important to have flawed characters for the sake of creating a compelling world, but when the author asserts values which go against common decency as we know it then it becomes bad writing; I don't think political correctness is something which should be applied to fiction. But I get what you mean. OG Dragon Ball's first arc aged very poorly for all the creepy sexual harassment "humor." I'm watching Legend of the Galactic Heroes and I find the dichotomy between monarchy and republican democracy incredibly shortsighted given the setting (of course, I'm a socialist with anarchist leanings, so I'm a bit more critical of it than most). These are things I would point out in a rec but would still point out their merits. |
 "The kindest person in the room is often the smartest." All failures of the individual are the failure of society to provide the means by which they could have achieved success. |
squirrvev said: Maenads said: If you see outdated ideas in old anime as anything other than quaint or funny, then you might be taking them too seriously. Old anime have a niche viewerbase in an already niche medium, the chances of them having any effect on societal attitudes towards serious issues is near zero. there are people out there who would love to kill me. I'm sorry about that but I doubt that 80's anime has any influence on those peoples worldview. |
| if you wanna recommend an older show just use a disclaimer ex. "if you want to see/read Berserk is contains blood, gore, rape" there's some ppl who go into shows blind (no spoilers , no trailers , minor synopsis) ,, there's some ppl who do research before they invest time in a show for those who do research , they'll probably come across said "controversial topics" and will choose to either watch or not watch not everybody cares about elements of racism or homophobia in old media ... I mean you're taking a gamble if you do because that's what existed in older times! and if you're the type who cares , do research on it first .. see if its about any controversial topics , that way you can avoid watching something that offends you :) |
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| the problem in recommending older shows is that this generation doesn't like old anime because they are old, simple as that. And there is no problem with politics and stuff, you probably are just a usual hater, gundam for example is better than all the shit that appeared after 1990 |
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squirrvev said: some people on here don't seem to realize this, but bad things are bad because they have always been bad, not because they became bad Societal values change drastically all the time. Even the societal values of just a decade before today were a lot different. Imagine that now on a way bigger scale. Bad things are bad because we as a society decide they are. They've not always been bad or always will be. There are no inherent good/bad values. They always depend on the time period and the people. |
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| I don't think I've seen any anime that revolve around dated politics. I feel only wartime propaganda has aged poorly. |
| その目だれの目？ |
squirrvev said: okay, since you all keep insisting on strawmanning me, here's a couple of things you would be able to notice if you really were as smart as you probably think you are 1. I'm talking about reviews/recs not talking about the things that might negatively affect someone's experience. 2. The point of writing these is to convey all the relevant things about the anime, not to condemn it. I want to know the show is fascist/generally bad before going into it 3. Bad things are bad because they're bad, they have always been bad and will continue being bad. Standards have nothing to do with it and recs should take that into account. Talk about why the anime turned out this way sure, but also don't give people the wrong idea about what their experience is gonna be. 4. You are not other people. You should think about that before relying your experience to other people. Especially when praising something to other people 5. I'm asking for honesty. That's it. Inform people properly, regardless of whether you're a spoiled brat with no skin in the game, or not. You realise you are asking for people to be exhaustively hyper-aware of something you personally experience when they don't? If not mentioning something which affects you is the equivalent of dishonesty and improper/invalid recommendation or opinion, then you've got a really dark path ahead of you. The vast majority of people just go along with the flow, which is why most atrocities in history happen and why these certain things you are uncomfortable with used to be acceptable. You'll accomplish nothing with a vindictive view that indifference or tolerance towards something occurring (which is a majority reaction for most people) is being a spoiled brat with no skin in the game. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| I guess you can find reasons to be outraged at most old shows (I would argue you'd still find similar issues in most current ones though) and blame the age of the series for all its faults. Alternatively, you can also view older shows as a potentially enriching experience, to learn about different viewpoints and how the perspectives on certain aspects and future itself were back then. And well, ultimately there is no universally recommendable thing, so if you know the person you are talking to in the first place, that'd help matters as well. |
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squirrvev said: you do know that stabbing people is stabbing people, right ? What you're doing doesn't change depending on what society thinks, opinions about an action and what that action entails are separate things. If I kill someone, they will no longer be able to live a happy life, right ? Regardless of how people perceive an act, there are certain immutable facts about it and the effect it has There are no immutable facts about it. Values always change and people will always act according to how they've been brought up and what society taught them. For example, if you lived with the Aztecs human sacrifices and killing would be the norm and you would think so too. Even the person sacrificed would be glad to give their life for the god/s they worshipped. It's all about the time period and the societal structure. |
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KayY_J said: Just a reminder that all terms related to pedophilia have a real, clinical definition, they aren't just synonymous with preying on teens. Most people are able to realize that a lot of shows are products of their time and are able to take that into account while scoring them. An example is Hajime no Ippo, which I'm watching right now. One of the main gags is about how Ippo has a large dick and Takamura constantly tries to show other people how big Ippo's dick is when Ippo doesn't want that, which is of course very weird and borderline pedophilic at first, considering Ippo is 16 when Takamura first starts doing it. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| You also need to remember anime is aimed at Japanese people, not Westerners. |
| Japan has different morals and ethics than most places...you can't expect them to be politically correct according to your standards |
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squirrvev said: some people on here don't seem to realize this, but bad things are bad because they have always been bad, not because they became bad Wow, objectively bad stuff...still you need a frame of reference to tell apart what it good and bad. You don't build such frame overnight. squirrvev said: modern audiences are better equipped to notice them and properly point out Sounds BS to me, the best equipment you can have for this is experience + inclination for critical thinking. If you lack one of those (for example I lack the second) your opinion doesn't weigh much. squirrvev said: The top reviews, profile comments, DMs and so on are more likely to include warnings Total BS, 99% of those are plagued by trolls, haters and hyped fanboys. squirrvev said: unlike the older ones In my experience 99% of those also are plagued by "trolls, haters and hyped fanboys". squirrvev said: So if you add nostalgia and ignorance of whoever was watching it as a child And your opinion on newer shows can be twisted by hype, blindly following trends and peer pressure. squirrvev said: That's why I fell for Eureka Seven, it just doesn't look like modern shit shows And I hated the melodrama in it and the lack idea what it wants to say. We have an interesting world and a bunch of edgy kids + adults who are fighting The Authority (making more damage in the process)...but with zero planning and strategy. So what? I admit liking order shows is harder - you need to do some homework (like being familiar with the historical context)...still people will avoid those simply because they are not trendy. |
| Fundamentally, I don't really care if something from the past had racist jokes, I don't hold people from 30 years ago to the values of the present day. All that really matters is whether or not the series was executed well and was entertaining, I will happily recommend NGE over most modern anime despite all the sexualization in it because its a great series. Similarly I have no problem recommending haruhi despite all the crazy and in todays world unacceptable stuff Haruhi does. In fact, its nice that jokes like this can be watched in certain older series, I can't imagine a scene like this flying today despite how funny it was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbKHLBKcQ90 |
ACasualViewerApr 24, 2022 8:09 AM
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DiscordMod said: Idk about the nihilism and moral relativity, I would like to think there are moral philosophy and a value framework of why these actions would be consider immoral.There are no immutable facts about it. Values always change and people will always act according to how they've been brought up and what society taught them. For example, if you lived with the Aztecs human sacrifices and killing would be the norm and you would think so too. Even the person sacrificed would be glad to give their life for the god/s they worshipped. It's all about the time period and the societal structure. But I do agree that bringing up human sacrifice was a very good example when he brought up harming others. I'll just yeet your example here to explain to @squirrvev, who tends to attribute malice or dishonesty way too much. Human sacrifice as a ritual was practiced not because people were bigoted, as far as those societies were concerned they were terrified of the next disaster that would befall them if they don't make their offering. |
BurningSpiritApr 24, 2022 8:11 AM
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| You think ratings should somehow be indicative of overly sensitive modern day viewpoints on social justice? It's one thing to want reviews that are more honest about potentially uncomfortable subjects, but it's beyond ridiculous to think classic shows should continually decline in rating over the years just because they contain what are now controversial viewpoints or subjects. Most people don't hold it against a show for existing in a time where these elements may have been more normal for the time period. I'm sure if you look at newer reviews on these shows you would find at least some people who are being critical of the content. Everything else you're asking for is simply not reasonable. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| The problem with recommending older anime is that many people might not like the art style or animation, not that the politics aren't in lime with American liberal arts colleges. |
on LostSpectre said: True, I could've worded that better, but my point was that nowadays it would come off as such to a general audience unlike during the time it came out. Sorry for any misunderstandings.KayY_J said: Just a reminder that all terms related to pedophilia have a real, clinical definition, they aren't just synonymous with preying on teens. Most people are able to realize that a lot of shows are products of their time and are able to take that into account while scoring them. An example is Hajime no Ippo, which I'm watching right now. One of the main gags is about how Ippo has a large dick and Takamura constantly tries to show other people how big Ippo's dick is when Ippo doesn't want that, which is of course very weird and borderline pedophilic at first, considering Ippo is 16 when Takamura first starts doing it. |
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ACasualViewer said: Fundamentally, I don't really care if something from the past had racist jokes, I don't hold people from 30 years ago to the values of the present day. All that really matters is whether or not the series was executed well and was entertaining, I will happily recommend NGE over most modern anime despite all the sexualization in it because its a great series. Similarly I have no problem recommending haruhi despite all the crazy and in todays world unacceptable stuff Haruhi does. In fact, its nice that jokes like this can be watched in certain older series, I can't imagine a scene like this flying today despite how funny it was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbKHLBKcQ90 Funny enough, it's not just the past. Some of the East Asian geopolitical realities of the world still bleeds into depictions in anime. I find it baffling that some people are so selectively sensitive when consuming entertainment, because I ALWAYS suspend my politics brain even if it is something that personally affects me. Same with people laugh at others, but can't be the butt of the joke sometimes. I don't care about politics in entertainment. Ever. Not even when my supposed identity group has been targeted. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| whoever made that fmab article is totally right |
squirrvev said: have you ever found an older show surprisingly bad when it comes to stuff like racism or homophobia ? If so, why do you think the reviews/scores tend to fail to reflect that ? The boy who cried wolf and over saturation of the terms. The political climate today has brought us to the point where the general public are just tired of hearing it. A certain political ideology uses the terms as a means to shut down their opposition when the claim isn't even factual. How many times do we have to see a claim made against something we love knowing its just BS before we stop paying attention to the people who make these claims? The sad part is these are real issues and the more the "champions" of these causes use the terms the way they are, completely diluting them, the less actual attention can be given to real problems. squirrvev said: okay, since you all keep insisting on strawmanning me, here's a couple of things you would be able to notice if you really were as smart as you probably think you are No one is strawmanning you, you gave your opinion and they are giving theirs and you don't like that. This tells me you came here to preach not discuss. I grew up in Church, I've had enough preaching for the rest of my life thanks. Sidebar KayY_J said: Most people are able to realize that a lot of shows are products of their time and are able to take that into account while scoring them. An example is Hajime no Ippo, which I'm watching right now. One of the main gags is about how Ippo has a large dick and Takamura constantly tries to show other people how big Ippo's dick is when Ippo doesn't want that, which is of course very weird and would be considered borderline pedophilic these days at first, considering Ippo is 16 when Takamura first starts doing it. Hajime no Ippo also has homophobic jokes and other stuff along that line. All I can do is laugh at them though, because Hajime no Ippo started at the end of the 80s when jokes and gags like these were considered more acceptable. Eh because its not pedo in anyway at 16. Pedophilia is a medical term referring to people with an unhealthy attraction to prepubescent minors. So 16 is not pedo. Also of note here are the cultural and social norms of where the media was produced, the national age of consent in Japan is 13. |
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